Existential Dilemma?

Celia Cyanide · Oct 21, 2005

I read with interest the thread about "Why Do You Write?" I didn't participate, because I wasn't sure why. But I found it interesting that many others seemed to be saying, "I have to," or "I didn't know I had a choice."

I was wondering if any of you sometimes feel like...well, you have to write, but you don't really want to? We always asks questions of each other, like "How should I start?" and "Why am I getting frustrated with this?" So I think most of us would agree that it isn't fun, at least not all the time.

So I tend to feel like, if it isn't fun, why do it? If I don't get this manuscript finished, or if I do, will it matter?

I tend to have an existential dilemma about everything I do, and I guess writing is no exception. If you have this existential dilemma about writing, how do you resolve it?

zornhau · Oct 21, 2005

For me, the downside of being a wannbe author is the opportunity cost: time not spent doing other cool stuff, including especially husband and dad stuff.

The only way of resolving it, short of a mace to the creative centres of my brain, is to sell enough to make the "hobby" support itself.

However, IMvHO, most of the angst I see on this board and others boils down to on fo the following:

Making a fuss as proof of creativity without actually having to do any work. You can find posers like this in most creative fields. Walk on by.
Want to be a writer, but actually dislike or writing (or can't do it) No better than wanting to be a rock musician, but ending up with 30 guitars on the wall and no idea how to play them. We're in Games People Play mode here. Again, walk on by.
Love writing, but keep getting stuck. Most people think it's a motivation problem because they feel so downhearted, but really it's a gap on their skillset - e.g. they have a wonderful ability to evoke things, but no sense of plot, or visa versa. I think this can be cured by going all no-ego and identifyign the technical problem and working out how to fix it.
Love writing but too insecure to show it to anybody. Just do it! Life is short.
Love writing, know how to do it, but have trouble organising time to write. Life laundry time. Sorry.

henriette · Oct 21, 2005

"So I tend to feel like, if it isn't fun, why do it? If I don't get this manuscript finished, or if I do, will it matter?"

i don't think any sort of art, whether for commerce or for art's own sake, is ever truly "fun". i mean, a project is always exciting and thrilling in the beginning stages, but eventually the artist reaches the point where they have to make the decision to continue (which includes hard work) or abandon their work.

for example: i used to work in music theatre, which is often a lot of fun. tap dancing, singing songs, working two hours a night once the show is up. but then there is the week (or two or three) before the show, where an exhausted cast, most with colds that rip their throats as they sing, work 12-14 hour days. next comes the "cue-to-cue", a long, tedious rehearsal where the show is broken down to arrange every little technical detail. for the actors, it is literally hell. some large productions (like phantom of the opera) have an entire WEEK of cue-to-cue. *shudder*

my point? although one might be in the artistic project of their dreams, one will still find getting to the end result involves dirty, exhausting work. writing a novel is no different.

"If you have this existential dilemma about writing, how do you resolve it?"

by making the decision to stick with the project until the end. i'm a notorious "never-finishes-what-she-starts" type, but i've made a serious vow to myself that this novel i'm writing is the one project i will not abandon during the tough times. it's imperative for my own sense of self to accomplish the one thing i've wanted to do but never had the guts or mind-set to do it. so i write, even if it's only a few paragraphs one day instead of a brillant full chapter, and look forward to the day i can type "the end". the day WILL come!

WriterInChains · Oct 21, 2005

Hi Celia,

"So I tend to feel like, if it isn't fun, why do it? If I don't get this manuscript finished, or if I do, will it matter?"

This is just me, but I push through the times when it feels like I'm spinning my wheels, or that I have no talent and am destined to remain a wannabe forever, because experience has taught me that those moments pass. At 40 I've finally realized that everything passes, so anything that I don't choose to put on my figurative plate doesn't get there -- with the singular exception of the job that puts food on my literal plate.

I feel like this a lot: "What does it matter?" And if I truly don't feel like writing one day, I let myself take the day off and read or do something else instead. But, in the end, it matters to me and that's what I hold on to. That, and the fact that my r/t crit group will be expecting pages and I know what to expect if those pages aren't up to snuf. And, I'm one of those strange people who actually prefers the company of my laptop or a notebook to most social events.

Everyone has a choice; everyone makes choices every day -- the trick is, to make the ones that you'll look back on and can live with. If I gave up on my writing, it would be like giving up on a big part of myself. I couldn't live with that.

Thanks for putting this out on the forum.
Have a great day!

caren

azbikergirl · Oct 21, 2005

I'm one of those "gotta write" people, but I don't have that dilemma. Writing is a blast. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but that usually happens when the inner editor is wrestling with the writer. If that editor chick would just shut the hell up, we'd be fine. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. Life is far too precious to waste on things I don't enjoy. (That's why I hire out some of the chore-type duties around my house!)

Celia Cyanide · Oct 21, 2005

henriette said:
for example: i used to work in music theatre, which is often a lot of fun.

I think that's a great example, because I often compare writing to acting. There is a very big difference in how I got involved in it. A few years ago, I decided to start taking acting classes, and I got really good at it, so I started auditioning for films around town, and started getting roles. Sometimes, I audition for a part I really, really want. When I don't get it, it's disappointing, but I knew that would happen when I decided to become an actor. When I work very hard on the audition, I usually get a phone call saying, "We wanted someone with a different hair color, but we wanted to let you know we really liked your auditon." I suppose that's the equivalent of getting a really complimentary rejection letter.

But when I write, I can't seem to see it the same way I see acting! I don't really feel like I chose to start writing, therefore, when I face rejection as a writer, I'm like, "great, now I'm a failure at this thing I never really wanted to do anyway!" And yet I can't choose to stop doing it.

I also have this problem that it feels like, if it's fun, I'm not working hard enough. Like if I'm really going to do it, I have to do it until it hurts. But one day, this girl in my acting class said to me, "Wow, this character I'm working on is giving me a migrane!" I was like, woah! Slow down! This is supposed to be fun! But maybe she wanted to work on her acting until it hurt. azbikergirl, you're very lucky to find writing fun!

Caren:

If I gave up on my writing, it would be like giving up on a big part of myself. I couldn't live with that.

That's very true. I think that's what everyone means when they say they don't have a choice.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 21, 2005

I have no existential dilemma. Life is short. Sometimes extremely short. It should be spent doing things we really enjoy doing.

I never have bought the "I have to write" theory. No one has to write. It's always a choice.

From my perspective, there's only two reasons to write. 1. You enjoy writing enough to want to write. 2. You firmly believe the end result will be worth the effort

henriette is right. If you want to be an actor, musician, singer, whatever, you have to practice, rehearse, and study. And if you really want to be a published writer, you have to sit down and write.

But if you don't think the end result justifies the agony of the practice, study, and rehearsal, then I don't think there's any reason to do it.

Writing is not always fun for me, but it is nearly always enjoyable. I write because I want to spend my hours writing. It's that simple. And there's the bonus of the money. But I need both, because the money is the only way I have time to sit down and enjoy writing.

But if I didn't enjoy writing, I simply would't do it. The world is full of fun things to do, and one of them matches all of us.

henriette · Oct 21, 2005

last night i was lamenting to my husband that i can't approach my novel exactly like performing, because in the rehearsal process one can dance in front of a mirror, or record a song and play it back. the performer can then visualize their performance and tweak it easily. there is no such equivalent in writing. i mean, i read back what i wrote and i think it's good but how do i *really* know?

celia, i'd like your thoughts on this: an actor does his job, which is listening and reacting. the other actors are doing their job, listening and reacting to you. however, an author has to do EVERYONE's job! the author must create every character, know every character's motivations etc etc. i find it easy to get into my narrator's character but delving into the others is sometimes difficult. it's like being in a play where you play every role...

maestrowork · Oct 21, 2005

Do what you love to do which you can do better than most people in the world and make lots of money doing it until you don't love it anymore...
-- my pal, Ed

reph · Oct 21, 2005

henriette said:
i find it easy to get into my narrator's character but delving into the others is sometimes difficult. it's like being in a play where you play every role...

On that model, writing is more like directing than like acting.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 21, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
From my perspective, there's only two reasons to write. 1. You enjoy writing enough to want to write. 2. You firmly believe the end result will be worth the effort

What about 3. You have something to express because it hurts when you keep it inside, but it also hurts when you try to express it?

Of course you have to write if you want to be a published writer, but if we haven't seen that end result yet, we won't know if it's worth it. Part of having an existential dilemma (and I am an expert on existential dilemmas!) is not knowing if anything matters. If I publish it, will that matter? If I don't publish it, would it still be worth writing? Sartre had an existential dilemma. He might have chosen not to write, because he didn't know if it mattered. Had he chosen not to, I would not have one of my favorite books. And ironically, I might not have my existential dilemma(s).

There is also the reason that zornhau mentioned, and that's wanting to be a rock star, without really doing the work. But the thing people don't realize is that if you wanna be a rock star, you just have to go down to the club and fill out an application. They actually aren't that picky about who they let in, you'd be surprised. It works, too. People say I'm a rock star all the time. When you go the easy route, you don't get to play music, but everyone thinks you're cool. And you don't make any money, but you get free drinks, so I figure that evens out. It's pretty sweet.

henriette said:
last night i was lamenting to my husband that i can't approach my novel exactly like performing, because in the rehearsal process one can dance in front of a mirror, or record a song and play it back. the performer can then visualize their performance and tweak it easily.

You know, I never thought of that, but it's very true. I have always loved acting for the camera, because you get to see your performance the way other people see it. But you can't really do that with writing. You can't separate reading it over from writing, the way you can when you watch your own performance.

I think you're right about characters, too. When you write a script, which I have done, you don't always have to develop the characters as much, because it is expected that the actors and director will do that. They want to, and might even get kind of annoyed if you never let them. But with a novel? You're on your own!

maestrowork · Oct 21, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
What about 3. You have something to express because it hurts when you keep it inside, but it also hurts when you try to express it?

You can certainly write for cathartic reasons. But if we're talking about getting published, they're usually not very good reasons to "write" unless what you're trying to express is felt by millions of people (e.g. 9/11 or surviving cancer) and you have something unique and helpful to say.

But where's the joy of it?

henriette · Oct 21, 2005

celia- are you referring to "the age of reason"? i recently tried to read it (found a wonderful old hardback copy and said why not) but couldn't get past the first few chapters. the scene with the cats almost being drowned probably did it...i feel i should get through it but that visual of those poor kitties in the basket stops me from reaching for it every time...

azbikergirl · Oct 21, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
You know, I never thought of that, but it's very true. I have always loved acting for the camera, because you get to see your performance the way other people see it. But you can't really do that with writing. You can't separate reading it over from writing, the way you can when you watch your own performance.

You can come close; read it out loud or have someone read it to you. I use software that will read text aloud, and it's helpful for catching snags in my writing.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 21, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
What about 3. You have something to express because it hurts when you keep it inside, but it also hurts when you try to express it?

Of course you have to write if you want to be a published writer, but if we haven't seen that end result yet, we won't know if it's worth it. Part of having an existential dilemma (and I am an expert on existential dilemmas!) is not knowing if anything matters. If I publish it, will that matter? If I don't publish it, would it still be worth writing? Sartre had an existential dilemma. He might have chosen not to write, because he didn't know if it mattered. Had he chosen not to, I would not have one of my favorite books. And ironically, I might not have my existential dilemma(s).

!

Sometimes you just have to pay your nickel and take your chances. The one thing I know for absolutely certain is that if you don't do something, you'll never, ever know whether or not it would have mattered.

No one can see what will happen in the future, but it's very easy to see what won't happen. If you don't write, it's certain it will never matter because the writing will never exist.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 21, 2005

maestrowork said:
You can certainly write for cathartic reasons. But if we're talking about getting published, they're usually not very good reasons to "write" unless what you're trying to express is felt by millions of people (e.g. 9/11 or surviving cancer) and you have something unique and helpful to say.

But where's the joy of it?

Well, I think it can be interesting and helpful to say something that most people don't know about, and people who do know about it don't want to talk about it. I can't think of a good example I've read off hand, but that's because I usually read depressing existentialist "nothing matters" crap.

But when I read a story and I see a character that has a problem I have that I don't see portrayed very often, it makes me happy, if only for a while.

henriette, I am referring to Nausea. A depressing but but brilliant novel about essence vs. existance, art and life.

scarletpeaches · Oct 21, 2005

I'd rather try and know what became of trying to be published, than not try out of fear, and spend the rest of my life wondering.

zornhau · Oct 21, 2005

scarletpeaches said:
I'd rather try and know what became of trying to be published, than not try out of fear, and spend the rest of my life wondering.

Wells said! Good for you :Clap:

blacbird · Oct 21, 2005

scarletpeaches said:
I'd rather try and know what became of trying to be published, than not try out of fear, and spend the rest of my life wondering.

Beware of what you wish for. Trying for a very long time, until you do find out what becomes of trying, presents a whole new set of issues. Perhaps ignorance really is bliss.

bird

reph · Oct 21, 2005

Whether something matters depends on your feelings about it. Is a goal truly worth working toward? Yes, by definition, if it's your goal. Depression will remove a sense that anything matters. Sorry, there's no way out of the existentialist pit unless you leap out by adopting an absolute.

Niesta · Oct 21, 2005

I don't think writing would be half so enjoyable or rewarding if it were easy. I see no contradiction between "I love doing this" and "Sometimes it's so difficult I just want to pound my head on the table." The challenge IS the fun.

Sage · Oct 21, 2005

The knowledge that I'm producing something entertaining (even if it's just for me) is what makes it worth going through the less fun parts like researching or feeling stuck. Sometimes I write just because I have nothing else to do. Like I could be sitting down watching tv, but instead I'm going to write (or do both. I'm big on doing something w/ my hands while I'm watching tv). The fact that I know that, at the very least, I have two friends who beg me for new stories & one that enjoys the stories I've written in the past is an added bonus. But even if I didn't write it down, I'd still write fiction in my head. I've been doing it since I was little. It's just that this one is actually potentially publishable, so I'm even more excited about finishing it.

I'm sure if I didn't have Stephanie & Heather begging me for more, I might get a little more frustrated with writing, but in the end, the person who has read my past fiction most, who has adored it & gone back to be entertained by it again = me! I mostly write to entertain myself. And writing it down means that it's preserved on paper and also that I created something. Which is a great feeling. Even if nothing ever gets published, even if I can never go into Borders & point to a shelf & say, "Hey, that's me," I still have created these fun stories.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't occasionally get all, "Oh god, my work sucks. I'll never be published" or "Oh, god, I hate working on this part. It's not going anywhere, but I need it." But that doesn't last very long, luckily.

Do you have anyone who you can share your work w/, Celia? That might make it feel more worth while, even if you never get it published.

Sage · Oct 21, 2005

Niesta said:
I don't think writing would be half so enjoyable or rewarding if it were easy. I see no contradiction between "I love doing this" and "Sometimes it's so difficult I just want to pound my head on the table." The challenge IS the fun.

Yes, like doing puzzles or logic problems.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 21, 2005

Sage said:
Do you have anyone who you can share your work w/, Celia? That might make it feel more worth while, even if you never get it published.

That's a good idea...when I was a teenager I had that, but I haven't really done that for so long. I think we're similar, because even when I don't write, I'm still writing in my head.

And I wonder, what is the point of writing it down, if I've got it all up there? But I bet I could show it to people, and they would like it.

I wanted to thank everyone for their participation in this thread. I hestitated posting it, because I was afraid it would sound like, "Poor me! I suck! I'll never be a writer!" which isn't what I had intended. But people have really interesting ideas about why they write, why they get frustrated, but still feel like they can't stop, and why they feel it matters, no matter how successful they are. It's very interesting to read. Thank you.

scarletpeaches · Oct 21, 2005

blacbird said:
Beware of what you wish for. Trying for a very long time, until you do find out what becomes of trying, presents a whole new set of issues. Perhaps ignorance really is bliss.

bird

Might as well just give up, then. Never write another word. Who am I to dare thinking I could make something of my life...

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