Why is it good for new writers to persue non-paying publicatis vs. trying to earn money right away.
Last edited:
Curious
- Thread starter AllyWoof
- Start date
- Status
Who told you it was good to pursue non-paying opportunities? If you want to eat, if you like having a roof over your head, go after the paying markets always.
Remember, writing has value. It's a service/product you're providing and, as such, you deserve to be paid.
Remember, writing has value. It's a service/product you're providing and, as such, you deserve to be paid.
I agree with Cyia and Birol. Why send something to a non-paying market if you might get a pro rate for it? Start at the top of the pay and go down from there.
There is an idea that in order to be successful you have to build a following by giving your first stuff away. This is not true. How in the world would you know how big of a following you have anyway?
There is an idea that in order to be successful you have to build a following by giving your first stuff away. This is not true. How in the world would you know how big of a following you have anyway?
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2005
- Messages
- 2,719
- Reaction score
- 551
- Location
- Bellevue, WA
- Website
- www.CascadeWriters.com
For example, in SYW, you can see how many views your piece got, so you can guess that's how many people read it.
Uh huh. Food and shelter can disappear quickly and unexpectedly. As an artist, don't count on others providing them. As a business person, value your craft.
Forgive me, but your friend is full of shit. What are their qualifications for giving such advice? That's what you, as an individual, must ask. Have they been there, done that? Or are they just spouting assumptions with no real world support?
I'm not saying there aren't non-paying markets with value, but they're not the norm.
Pub credits from paying markets are worth more than credits from non-paying markets. How it was explained to me is that it counts as a credit if someone was willing to part with money to publish your work. The more they paid, the more impressive the credit.
I think the "nonpaying first" approach came from an idea that you will get a publisher's attention if you can produce a list of published works, even if they were non-paying pubs. I used to think this too, and perhaps there's truth in it. But what I've learned since coming here is that non-paying markets don't really count as publication credits, since there is no way to tell if your story was selected on its merits or if it was posted to a site that takes everything.
Besides, how many stories do you need to have in non-paying markets before you can move up to token payment, then semi-pro, then pro? 5? 10? 25? None, actually. A pro market will buy your story if they think it will sell their magazines. That's the final criteria they use.
I think the "nonpaying first" approach came from an idea that you will get a publisher's attention if you can produce a list of published works, even if they were non-paying pubs. I used to think this too, and perhaps there's truth in it. But what I've learned since coming here is that non-paying markets don't really count as publication credits, since there is no way to tell if your story was selected on its merits or if it was posted to a site that takes everything.
Besides, how many stories do you need to have in non-paying markets before you can move up to token payment, then semi-pro, then pro? 5? 10? 25? None, actually. A pro market will buy your story if they think it will sell their magazines. That's the final criteria they use.
It's the difference between throwing your hat in the ring when no one's watching and throwing your hat in the ring with a full audience. Most non-paying publications don't have a big audience (I suspect many have no audience). There are exceptions, but generally, the more a place pays, the bigger the audience is likely to be.
Few no pay markets have the sort of reputation that makes them good credits for a cover letter. You're better off having nothing than listing a bunch of markets the agent/editor has never heard of.
If you're not going to get money, readers or a good publication credit... that doesn't leave much.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 6,449
- Reaction score
- 1,321
That's true to some extent of some forms of journalism; for instance, if you want to be the restaurant reviewer for a great big publication, the ordinary course of things is to start by writing for a small local publication (which may be low pay or no pay), then get work with a bigger, better-paying publication on the strength of your "clips" from the low-pay/no-pay publications, then parlay those "clips" into even bigger publications, and so on.
But apart from that, not so much.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 6,449
- Reaction score
- 1,321
There are some very prestigious journals for literary fiction and non-fiction that are low pay, but those are definitely exceptions to the rule.
Some of us write for friends websites because they are friends - it's entirely different to picking random non-paying markets to sub to. I generate more than enough material to do this as well as subbing to paying markets, so it isn't as if I am making a choice between one or the other. There is no reason to go hunting for non-paying markets.
as said, your friend is full of it. This might be a bit like me taking love and relationship advice from Mike, a quasi-friend in high school who was convinced alcohol was the height of seduction......he didn't know shit about relationships, and it appears your friend does not know shit about pubbing.
In GENERAL, the more prestige a mag has the bigger audience it will have. the bigger audience, the bigger the pay. This is not a universal, so actually you want to aim for the BEST place you can sub; not the highest or the lowest paying, but the one that is most difficult for you to get to.
Think of it this way: If you wanted to show you were a skilled scientist, do you think a publication in Nature would be equal to an essay in grammy's family newsletter? Then why would it be different in writing fiction? Non-paying markets usually carry far less weight, and a publication the agent has to google just to find isn't going to count as a publication credit at all. Might as well try to polish that story till it goes someplace that matters, unless you're just shooting for a bit of self-validation, and there can be value in that, but I would run far, far from anyone's advice that included "ideally, you should publish with nobodies first".
Quick
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2007
- Messages
- 8,049
- Reaction score
- 772
- Location
- Clearlake Park, CA
- Website
- www.strokingthepen.com
It isn't- never. Start at the top of any magazine, agent list, publisher list, whatever, and work your way down.
Also, generally speaking, the works that appear in non-paying venues are of lesser quality than those of paying. Which is why if you have a bunch of random token or non-paying credits on your cover letter it's a big red-flag to pro publishers. It's worse than no publications at all, because it tells them you probably aren't up to their writing standards, whereas no publications could simply mean you're new. And they know that new doesn't equal bad.
So, don't shoot yourself in the foot. How will you know if your work is pro-quality if you don't submit top-down? If you start with the lowest possible market, how are you to know when you're ready to move up? Subbing to non-paying markets, but wanting to be a successful writer, is kind of like saying you want to marry a nice guy someday, so you're going to start by dating jerks. It makes no sense.
So, don't shoot yourself in the foot. How will you know if your work is pro-quality if you don't submit top-down? If you start with the lowest possible market, how are you to know when you're ready to move up? Subbing to non-paying markets, but wanting to be a successful writer, is kind of like saying you want to marry a nice guy someday, so you're going to start by dating jerks. It makes no sense.
Yes, start at the top and work your way down. But don't sneer at the non-pro markets. Some garner high prestige in their fields. One way to figure out the prestige markets: Check out the "Year's Best" anthologies for your genre and the prizes given out by its organizations.
Also, read the markets to which you might submit. Don't sub to those which publish stories you consider inferior. Respect your standards. (And work to make them high.
)
Also, read the markets to which you might submit. Don't sub to those which publish stories you consider inferior. Respect your standards. (And work to make them high.
)
Last edited:
If your writing is good enough, there's no need to assume you have to submit to non-paying markets first. If your submitted piece is of a high standard, a paying market won't (or at least shouldn't) care if you've got a list of publications behind you.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2,809
- Reaction score
- 901
- Location
- Sunny SoCal
- Website
- www.katethornton.net
Ally, I can't speak for others, only myself. I write short stories. Most of them go to paying markets. Some go to non-paying venues that belong to friends and I give them freebies to help support their endeavors while they get off the ground. A very few go to non-paying venues that are just plain niche - too weird, too tiny to pay, very small select circulation and I enjoy the exercises.
But as someone else observed, your friend is full of shit - start at the top of high-paying venues and work down. Make sure your work is polished enough for the big guys, and worth every cent when that contract comes in the mail (and the fat check, too!)
,,
But as someone else observed, your friend is full of shit - start at the top of high-paying venues and work down. Make sure your work is polished enough for the big guys, and worth every cent when that contract comes in the mail (and the fat check, too!)
,,
They choose to go that route because, like you, they've been led to believe that's what you're supposed to do. As a beginner writer, I thought that too. I thought paying markets would need to see a long list of publications before they'd consider you.
Either that, or they don't think they're good enough/ready for paying markets yet. In some cases, that's perfectly valid.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 6,449
- Reaction score
- 1,321
I think they get inapplicable information from people whose experience in fields like features or review journalism does support that strategy. Or they get bad information from people running no-pay/low-pay venues with poor exposure.
There's a lot of bad and inapplicable information out there in the world. Some of it's honestly mistaken; some of it's on purpose to draw people in.
I think the attitude is reinforced by the music business, where musicians play at run-down dives until they "get discovered" and make it big. (Living where I do in northern Mississippi, I know people who saw some scrawny guitar picker named Elvis Presley perform before anyone knew who he was.) It is common for musicians when starting out to post free track downloads on MySpace or their website to build a following. I don't think that works as well for writers.
Where music and writing differ, is once a musician builds up their library they can perform the same songs over and over in different venues. The equivalent for writers would be to sell the same story to different markets over and over, which doesn't really work for us. Most publications want to see new stuff, while club owners want the musician to perform the established crowd pleasers. Another sort-of difference is the free tracks are part of an album which hopefully the consumer will purchase; the equivalent for writers would be to offer a prologue as a free teaser for a novel. That's different than publishing a free stand-alone story.
Where music and writing differ, is once a musician builds up their library they can perform the same songs over and over in different venues. The equivalent for writers would be to sell the same story to different markets over and over, which doesn't really work for us. Most publications want to see new stuff, while club owners want the musician to perform the established crowd pleasers. Another sort-of difference is the free tracks are part of an album which hopefully the consumer will purchase; the equivalent for writers would be to offer a prologue as a free teaser for a novel. That's different than publishing a free stand-alone story.
And, sadly, some do it for the ego boost. In most cases, it's far, far, far easier to get accepted at non-paying publications than pro or semi. They're desperate to say, "I'm published," and know that people who don't write won't bother to ask, "professionally?"
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2011
- Messages
- 302
- Reaction score
- 37
- Location
- The Mos Eisley Spaceport
- Website
- focusonenergy.wordpress.com
Or they are told by people who own businesses or are organizing festivals that they should not expect to be paid to perform, instead they should feel priviliged to be allowed to play "for exposure", not for money.
Find the publications that work for your writing and pay you.
The only reason I can see for writing for non-paying markets is if you are getting something else out of it besides money, and that usually means trade publications where the piece serves as a form of marketing with a much higher level of credibility than advertising.
Although it's better to write other people's trade magazine articles and get them to pay you to do it. That way, it is still a paying market
Focus
- Status