My bad guy sucks. Any advice?

[inanna]

Now is the point in my novel where the guy who has previously been just a Lurking Presence of Doom enters stage left and starts to make everything go from bad to worse.

My problem is that he is very one dimensional right now. I know enough about characterization to know he needs hopes and dreams and maybe even an "I heart kittens" soft side. But when I try and think it through, that sort of thing feels just as cliche as if he were standing in the wings twirling his mustache.

So I was hoping someone would share any specifics about what works for them when it comes to fleshing out their bad guys (or girls). I'm getting nowhere so far, and it would be much appreciated :)

[pepperlandgirl]

It might help to remember that as far as your villian is concerned, he is the star of the story. Perhaps it'll help to treat him as such?

[inanna]

It might help to remember that as far as your villian is concerned, he is the star of the story. Perhaps it'll help to treat him as such?

You're right, and I think I want him to have Presence with a capital "P" so badly that I'm worried about veering into melodramatic overdrive. I want him to be nuanced, dangit--but I got nothin'.

[Celia Cyanide]

My problem is that he is very one dimensional right now. I know enough about characterization to know he needs hopes and dreams and maybe even an "I heart kittens" soft side. But when I try and think it through, that sort of thing feels just as cliche as if he were standing in the wings twirling his mustache.

hmmm...I might have to ask more about him than you fel like telling me to answer that. Okay...he's one dimentional, and giving him a soft side doesn't help that. Probably because that's not what he is, it's just adding something for the sake of giving him an arc. Maybe you are looking at him from the perspective of the purpose he serves in the story? Perhaps it would help to look at it from the perspective of "why does he do what he does?" from his OWN perspective, rather than yours.

[Jamesaritchie]

All I can say is make him real. Three dimensional. Even bad guys believe they're right, believe that what they're doing is justified, else they wouldn't be doing what it is they do.

[reph]

The villain doesn't have to be likable. He only has to be motivated. So (echoing others) why does he do those villainous things?

[SC Harrison]

Is he a sociopath with no concept of right and wrong, or is he merely warped by his own misguided perceptions?

[Valona]

I don't know if you've considered this, but earlier on in the story, can you make him/her sympathetic? Maybe even do a scene in his/her POV, or have someone talk to him/her, or describe him/her, so we get to care for him/her. But let the reader understand things about him/her so that, when he/she shows his/her real stripes, yes, it's a shock, but at the same time, the reader can nod his/her head and say "I should have seen it coming."

[inanna]

Hey...you guys are onto something. I think I've been analyzing his motives, but from a distance instead of through his eyes. I've been pulling back because frankly, his motives are melodramatic. But heck, the whole book has been up to this point, so why stop now. I'll embrace it!!

Just hope I can pull it off. And yes, I believe I am starting to overthink it instead of writing it. Just performance anxiety. Thanks guys.

[Zonk]

I believe JAR has given great advice, to which I would only add: have him enjoy it; give him appetites, and give him a characteristic that many would find valuable.

Even a psychopath like Hannibal Lecter frightens the dickens out of most readers because he is a polite, cultured cannibal. I believe that juxtaposing apparently irreconcilable characteristics like this have given us some of our most memorable villains.

Some backstory regarding how he came to be this way might help, too.


:D:D:D

[inanna]

Is he a sociopath with no concept of right and wrong, or is he merely warped by his own misguided perceptions?

He's sort of both, at least I would like him to be.


I don't know if you've considered this, but earlier on in the story, can you make him/her sympathetic? Maybe even do a scene in his/her POV, or have someone talk to him/her, or describe him/her, so we get to care for him/her. But let the reader understand things about him/her so that, when he/she shows his/her real stripes, yes, it's a shock, but at the same time, the reader can nod his/her head and say "I should have seen it coming."

This is excellent advice. I don't think I can work his charcater in much earlier than I have (at least for this draft), but if I can write a scene in this upcoming section that gives him this kind of dimension I will be thrilled.

[DamaNegra]

You know, a good thing would be getting into the villian's mind. Most of the time they don't think they are wrong, they just do what they think is 'right' and have a twisted point of view about what right is. If you are going to make it a very important part of the story, you could try and take him from there.

[Cathy C]

Also consider that sometimes villains are villains because they ENJOY it! There's a swirling, nearly erotic high for those who joyfully accept the power of life and death. Tell you what --- we did a full chapter from the POV of the villain in our latest ms. Take a look at it and see how we created three dimensions without going into his whole background. Just know that it's paranormal, so walk in knowing that shapeshifters exist, that they live a long time and that us regular humans don't know about them. I'll post it over in SYW, in the SciFi/Fantasy forum. The password is vista.

Here's the link: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=366708#post366708

Hope it helps! Do you see how little things are inserted to make the reader KNOW that there's a backstory on the villain? That he absolutely has a plan and a motive, even though you don't know what it is?

[debraji]

Make him funny, sarcastic, clumsy, have a weakness for Chinese food, vain, have a comb-over, love the Three Stooges, do Civil War reenactments when he's not maiming people....

[jackie106]

Take a look at real bad guys. They have their own foibles, some of them too bizarre to make up. Kim Jong Il likes the NBA, American movies, the Internet, sports cars and leggy blonde women. He is treated like a god in North Korea, but he is still very sensitive about his height and wears lifts in his shoes.

Hannah Arendt, who covered the trial of Adolf Eichmann for the New Yorker, wrote about the "banality of evil." Eichmann sent millions of Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables" to Nazi death camps, yet he was "normal" in all other respects.

Take a look at the biographies of truly evil people. Josef Stalin, Timothy McVeigh, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden and many, many other sickos believed that killing people for their cause was 100% justified.

Jackie

[katiemac]

To go along with others have said, in a simpler manner:

The villian believes he is the hero.

Perhaps you don't have a problem with the villian, but with his cause?

[scarletpeaches]

Call him Colin. That would scare the arse off me.

[KelseyF]

Lol, why Colin?

I'm just a newbie, and still in the process of sketching out my own characters, including a villain, so this thread has been very useful for me.

Just out of curiousity, inanna, do you write characterizations first? How many of you do? I started to, but I find myself changing so much of it while actually writing, I'm starting to wonder what the point is.

[fedorable1]

My definition of a "Villain" is fairly simple, and it may help you:

A Villain is a character that goes left when the Hero goes right.

Villains don't necessarily need to be evil or sadistic. Sometimes they are normal (or extraordinary) people that have an opposing viewpoint. Think of people like Magneto in the X-Men, or Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide. The Hero should look at the Villain as a mirror that has been somehow warped.

[Tippy]

What frightens me the most about a bad guy, is his ability to hide his horrific nature from the rest of the world. His demeanor so smooth, so slick, that the reader is aghast at the way the innocent heroine trusts this degenerate.

We, the reader know he killed his last girlfriend with an ice pick, but our lovely heroine doesn't - and she thinks she may be falling in love. The man of her dreams. Love is blind. And so on.

I like bad guys who pull off an act like the serial killer who was recently apprehended - BTK. Church President, model citizen, Boy Scout leader...and yet, at home alone, he collected trinkets from his 'kills', saving them right under his trusting wife's nose. He fooled the police for three decades, and the day before he was finally busted - his Pastor said he brought a casserole to the Church. Same church where a decade earlier he posed the dead body of one of his victims - for photos.

That is the kind of bad guy that grabs my attention and won't let go. His evil runs deep - and for most of the world - unseen. That's what makes him so dangerous.

[Jamesaritchie]

Lol, why Colin?

I'm just a newbie, and still in the process of sketching out my own characters, including a villain, so this thread has been very useful for me.

Just out of curiousity, inanna, do you write characterizations first? How many of you do? I started to, but I find myself changing so much of it while actually writing, I'm starting to wonder what the point is.

I really and truly dislike writing character charts and the like. They never seem to create characters I believe in. I prefer characters that come alive on teh page, that draw everything from the story, and let the story draw from them.

[Jamesaritchie]

My favorite villains aren't villains at all. They're just people who want something opposite of what the hero wants, or often wants the same thing teh hero wants, and the only reason they're considered the bad guy is because the hero wins.

[fallenangelwriter]

when making a truly evil character, i start with something generally considered good, then warp and twist it until it's horrible.


I don't know what drives your villain, but i've had luck wiht love, loyalty, ambition, even altruism (nothing scarier than someone convinced he has your best interest at heart while he ruins your life)

[SC Harrison]

The scary thing (to me) about sociopaths and/or psychopaths is their ability to fool people. Egocentricity and ambition can drive them to excel, landing many into positions of wealth and influence. In our society, these accomplishments are lauded, leading people to assume the person is not only sane, they can also be trusted. A nice suit and tie can open many doors, simply because of accepted social norms.

One of my bad guys is a retired Marine, who did a few tours in Vietnam. Now a stalwart member of the community that people feel safer around, he still occasionally uses the Kabar knife he learned how to kill with in the jungle. He is not a stalker in the classic sense. He just goes about his day like normal, but every now and then some unlucky person does something that flicks a switch, and he responds, with about as much emotion as he puts into brushing his teeth. There's really nothing about him to love or hate, so I guess I didn't develop him properly. He's still pretty spooky, though.

[Stacey Sweeney]

Whenever I have a character that is kind of flat, I make a list of every possible characteristic they might have. Physical, mental, etc. It's just a brainstorming type list and some stuff on my list never comes up in the story, but at least I have a clear picture in my mind of who I'm talking about. If I can't come up with enough characteristics, I turn on a show that's relevant (Law and Order SVU, a Lifetime movie, etc) and use that as motivation to help my character along. It helps me add little bits and pieces about that character that make him/her come to life a little more.

[scarletpeaches]

I used to do character profiles...in the end I decided I was wasting time, talking about writing a book rather than writing a book. Now I just ask myself, "What does this person want? WHY do they want it? How far will they go to get it?"

[Danger Jane]

Whether or not you believe this (morally or whatever)...maybe your villain isn't a comic book I Am Going To Destroy The World Not Realizing That It'll Destroy Me, Too guy...maybe he just doesn't see any other way. He might not be psychologically on the same level as other characters and therefore his actions and feelings take very different...forms...they have polarly (is this even a word? lol) different ramifications.

[inanna]

I've been AWOL for a couple days thanks to my wonky internet connection, but I just finished reading everyone's posts and wonderful advice and wanted to thank you guys. Now I've got some new ideas to swish around in my brain. Sometimes all it takes is one new connection to light things up--so thank you! :idea:






I'm just a newbie, and still in the process of sketching out my own characters, including a villain, so this thread has been very useful for me.

Just out of curiousity, inanna, do you write characterizations first? How many of you do? I started to, but I find myself changing so much of it while actually writing, I'm starting to wonder what the point is.

I really don't, even though I imagine it's very useful, just like outlining. But just like outlining, I start to doze off pretty quickly when I try. My characters so far have pretty much lived and evolved in my head, and the blanks get (almost miraculously) filled in as I write their scenes. It must be a very subconscious sort of thing, and I love when it happens like that--mostly because I'm lazy :).

I think my anxiety about my villian has to do with the fact that I haven't heard his voice as clearly as I have with the others so far.

[Supafly]

Is the book told from first person? If its third person, you can tell the story from both the protagonist's and antagonist's POV. Or, if that doesn't sound good to you, just try to put in situations where the reader sees more than one aspect of the bad guy's personality. Remember, he's a person too (unless he's a ghost or monster or something). Bad guys have all the same emotions as the good guys, they just act on them differently. You could show the reader how a past experience in the enemy's life influenced his descent into darkness. He may end up being very simliar to the good guy, just on different sides of the track.

[Albedo of Zero]

take the straw from him and make him drink from the cup

[gp101]

Readers don't have to necesserally like a villain. But they should understand his motives. Why he's doing what he's doing. I bet if you focus more on his motivations and why he needs to reach his goal and foil the hero, you'll come up with a more interesting character. And, if you can show a different side to him--a softer, more attractive quality--he becomes more complex. The previous posts with their suggestions of juxtaposing admirable qualities with misguided beliefs or even evil ones are right on the money, especially the example of Hannibal Lecter. Let the reader know exactly what his motivation is, and why it's so important. Of course, he should be an equal or superior to the hero in intelligence, cunning, and will, else he'll appear a pushover.

Character sketches aren't for everyone, but they definitely help me. I don't go crazy with them, but a single page or two for each major character does it for me. Simple things like coming up with a particular character's name, age, appearance, brief past, occupation, beliefs, and motivations help me understand the people I'm writing about long before I start the novel. It also helps me avoid a lot of writer's bloc when I come to a character in a story for the first time; I don't have to ponder too much about their habits, work, etc.

[kaku]

Give him faults, be it in appearance or behavior. Avoid stereotypes at all costs. Imagine anaxe murderer gently caressing his pet parrot while he explains to it why he needs to disembowl his next victim.

[Mistook]

Now is the point in my novel where the guy who has previously been just a Lurking Presence of Doom enters stage left and starts to make everything go from bad to worse.

My problem is that he is very one dimensional right now. :)


Lurking Presences of Doom tend to be one dimensional by nature.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

When I'm working on a character - any character, not just the bad guy - I have a friend sit down with me and start asking me questions about him/her. Nothing is off limits or too insignificant. From 'What color eyes?' to 'What are his feelings regarding nuclear proliferation?', anything's fair game. By the time the questions run out, I've got more than a passing acquaintance with the character I'm trying to build - and my friend always surprises me with the number or questions and the subjects she can come up with. Answers to one question often lead in surprising directions... and I end up with a very three-dimensional personality for my other characters to loathe, or love, as the case may be.

[inanna]

When I'm working on a character - any character, not just the bad guy - I have a friend sit down with me and start asking me questions about him/her. Nothing is off limits or too insignificant. From 'What color eyes?' to 'What are his feelings regarding nuclear proliferation?', anything's fair game. By the time the questions run out, I've got more than a passing acquaintance with the character I'm trying to build - and my friend always surprises me with the number or questions and the subjects she can come up with. Answers to one question often lead in surprising directions... and I end up with a very three-dimensional personality for my other characters to loathe, or love, as the case may be.

I never thought about considering my character's viewpoint on seemingly irrelevant subjects, but I see how that could be a strong tool for rounding out his worldview. That's a great idea (and a great friend to help). I think I'm going to go call in a favor or two and give that a try. Thanks!

[JackieG]

At the risk of over-thinking the villian concept, I would like to remind that the real purpose of the "villian" is conflict. Conflict is the motivator for readers to turn the page. Will the hero get what he's after? Without an opposing force to resist our hero, it makes for a very short book.

With that in mind, a villian doesn't even have to be evil, really. All he has to do is keep the hero from his goal. Heck, the villian doesn't even have to be human (think of natural disasters or crazed beasts). Oftentimes, the real villian in a story isn't truly the bad guy, but some quality within the hero himself that he must vanquish in order to succeed.

[MichaelSt]

Who is a villain inside?

I suspect few actually see themselves as truly villainous--at first. Rather, I suspect that villainy is in the eye of the beholder. I fight for my family, my life, my property and in so doing take the life of someone who is loved by another.

I am villain, I am hero, I am victim; I am all things in turn and each shall cast me in the light he or she feels best. As a consequence of this interaction, the greater the wrongs I perceive to be against me, the greater my response, my retribution. Hence, the greater shape my villainy takes to those against whom my destructive energies are set.

What then, when I come to see my role in conflict and the ballance of harm that I and my opponenet create in each other? Either I am made to chose a new path or I devide my existance and never look back. I shall harm my enemy(ies) and nothing shall stop nor denude the dread hurt that I determine to create. At this moment, I am villain. I am villain to those against whom I strive.

Michael, just some thoughts over there and back again, in Seattle.

[MarkButler]

Also consider that sometimes villains are villains because they ENJOY it! There's a swirling, nearly erotic high for those who joyfully accept the power of life and death. Tell you what --- we did a full chapter from the POV of the villain in our latest ms. Take a look at it and see how we created three dimensions without going into his whole background. Just know that it's paranormal, so walk in knowing that shapeshifters exist, that they live a long time and that us regular humans don't know about them. I'll post it over in SYW, in the SciFi/Fantasy forum. The password is vista.

Here's the link: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=366708#post366708

Hope it helps! Do you see how little things are inserted to make the reader KNOW that there's a backstory on the villain? That he absolutely has a plan and a motive, even though you don't know what it is?

This was really excellent and I see what you mean.. the character Sargon is well portrayed.. at first we think he is ok, a kind of schemer, then we find out he has lived for a long time and thinks differently, finally we understand his true nature.. excellent writing! There are plenty of "already in progress" plots, such as Zubari and Rachel that hint at a much larger picture.

BTW - the name Sargon is the same name as a character on Star Trek and I never could get past it, each time I saw the name on the screen I thought of Star Trek instead of the character.

Mark

[Donna Pudick]

One rule of write: Your bad guy and good guy must be evenly matched and, based on how you wish to end the book, one is just a tad smarter than the other.

So:

Strong protagonist
Worthy antagonist

All the most successful (thriller) novels have followed this rule. The best movies do, too. If you're having trouble, study your protagonist carefully and counter his strong goodness with your antagonist's badness.

[jessicakes]

My faaavorite villain is Greg Stillson in The Dead Zone by Stephen King. We get everything from his villainous beginnings to his villainous ends!

[mdmkay]

When I have problems with a villian I will go back to when he was a child and build some kind of background that makes me thing that whatever happened then is what is twisting him now. You have to make him human in alot of ways just creepy. Some you even make somewhat understandable in a twisted weird way. That were you get the man's foibles and his perspectives and his revenge morality.

The worst villians are the ones that you think on a normal day you could even like him if it weren't for his creepy overtones and perspective of the world.
I go for darker shades of gray characters no one is really completley black. Totally black characters are just not filled in and are to one or two dimensional.

[SusanR]

Terrific responses, great thread!

Here's just a little tidbit from my own experience, a little quirky observation about a certain kind of bad guy. Since most of my career was spent in emergency psychiatry, I've had opportunity to do evaluations on a lot of Bad Guys. Over the years, I've noticed something. Whenever I am interviewing a sociopath, a little song plays in my mind: "I Didn't Know The Gun Was Loaded." That's my countertransference cue that I'm sitting across from a sociopath.

It's NEVER their fault. They are ALWAYS misunderstood. There's ALWAYS a justification for the action they took.

In writing them, the trick really is to see through their eyes until you can feel thatentitlement. How does a mind work, to believe that lying, stealing, rape, and murder is justified?

Then there are the monsters who are so far from human that don't even have to go to self-justification. They are like a twisted force of nature. They just are evil. The serial killers who kill for thrill are a class unto themselves. The only way to understand them is to understand that they feel no more remorse for their actions than you do masturbating alone to your fantasies in your locked bedroom. It's just what they do.

There are two main bad guys in my WIP. One is a presidential candidate willing to stop at nothing to win. The other is the head of the circa 1800 Dutch household.

The latter is easier write three-dimensionally, since I understand that all his awful choices stem from his belief that he responsible for the well-being of his family. His wife doesn't understand that sometimes a man has to do what is necessary to provide for his family and to keep them safe in a dangerous world. Tender, silly creatures, these women, these wives. Good thing God put men in charge. He's even admirable, in a pathetic kind of way.

But the president is still one-dimensional. I haven't had a chance to develop him yet, and it's going to be harder because I have more trouble empathasizing with monstrous ambition. I keep thinking about Watergate, trying to understand that kind of thing. Paranoia, ambition.....?

Anyway, bad guys are FUN.

SusanR

[loquax]

Like any good villain, this thread has returned from the dead!

["The Apostle" Author]

This may sound cliched or words to that affect. Think old movies about making movies. The spoiled actor says "Whats my motivation,"

I think about what I need the bad guy to do. Once I get there It's just a matter of creating the circumstance which drive him to the point in the story, which serves your purpose.

Point in case. My first novel "The Apostle" I need a bad guy who is "Bad Assed" I give him a family in which the mother dies at birth, the father moves away from the family taking his only son with him. The kid grows up starved for attention. he is a jock dad is an acountant. they grow ever distant, a military recruiter gives him the time of the day and fuels his desire to excell. his motivation is good but he lacks strong moral skills "no family support" He becomes a Navy SEAL (BAD ***), but lacking the family values he gets into trouble. Now he is a highly trained assasin with a need for adrenilin I'm sure you get the point.

For a more in depth look at Mack...by the way, he works for Caedes P. Cruciatus. Latin for Blood and torment. You can support my childrens college fund, by going to www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) and searching for the isbn1-9331486-1-6 The Apostle.

Write about what you know about and let you bad guys grow from your darkest moods and deepest fantasies. I wouldn't sit down to write a love scene after I've had a fight with my wife, anymore than I wold write a bad guy on the Christmas morning. It just wouldn't feel right, and I'm sure it would be reflected in my writing.

Shameless promotion? I think so.

P.S. If you do purchase a copy pay no attention the fact that my final edit didn't make it to print. My publisher is fixing it as I type.

Send us an example of your substance lacking evil doer.

[The Gorn]

When I think of villians there are two basic types that come to mind.

1. The fugitive from planet psychotica whose only wish is to cause as much death, destruction, chaos, mayhem, and over-all headaches as possible before the good guy/s stops them.

2. The bad guy who honestly believes they are the good guy. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing and those who do not agree (the real good guys) are the ones that must be stopped.

Then there are a few others I can think of:

3. The evil genius type like in the 007 movies. You know, the ones who have a grand vision. So what if they have to butcher 3,000,000,000 people to make it happen.

4. The power-mad dictator who rules with an iron fist and must be brought down to save the people of the nation from endless suffering.

I could go on and on. If you're looking to create a villian who is flat out evil but has a softer side, then I would go with type two on this list.

[cyberwraith]

When I can't get a clear picture of a character, I sit alone in my car somewhere like the grocery store parking lot and either talk like him about his day or write a monologue on same. Once I get the sense of what that person's skin feels like around me, then the details come to life.

Somewhere I read an author (Anne Lamott?) say that it is impossible to write without love. So it helps to have love even for an evil character: to love him is to know him is to write him. The only way to do this is to bring him really close.

[ChaosTitan]

For anyone who doesn't frequent the Science Fiction/Fantasy board, there is a thread over there about "Evil People" that might be helpful.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24347

-Kelly