My bad guy sucks. Any advice?

inanna · Oct 19, 2005

Now is the point in my novel where the guy who has previously been just a Lurking Presence of Doom enters stage left and starts to make everything go from bad to worse.

My problem is that he is very one dimensional right now. I know enough about characterization to know he needs hopes and dreams and maybe even an "I heart kittens" soft side. But when I try and think it through, that sort of thing feels just as cliche as if he were standing in the wings twirling his mustache.

So I was hoping someone would share any specifics about what works for them when it comes to fleshing out their bad guys (or girls). I'm getting nowhere so far, and it would be much appreciated

pepperlandgirl · Oct 19, 2005

It might help to remember that as far as your villian is concerned, he is the star of the story. Perhaps it'll help to treat him as such?

inanna · Oct 19, 2005

pepperlandgirl said:
It might help to remember that as far as your villian is concerned, he is the star of the story. Perhaps it'll help to treat him as such?

You're right, and I think I want him to have Presence with a capital "P" so badly that I'm worried about veering into melodramatic overdrive. I want him to be nuanced, dangit--but I got nothin'.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

inanna said:
My problem is that he is very one dimensional right now. I know enough about characterization to know he needs hopes and dreams and maybe even an "I heart kittens" soft side. But when I try and think it through, that sort of thing feels just as cliche as if he were standing in the wings twirling his mustache.

hmmm...I might have to ask more about him than you fel like telling me to answer that. Okay...he's one dimentional, and giving him a soft side doesn't help that. Probably because that's not what he is, it's just adding something for the sake of giving him an arc. Maybe you are looking at him from the perspective of the purpose he serves in the story? Perhaps it would help to look at it from the perspective of "why does he do what he does?" from his OWN perspective, rather than yours.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 19, 2005

Bad guy

All I can say is make him real. Three dimensional. Even bad guys believe they're right, believe that what they're doing is justified, else they wouldn't be doing what it is they do.

reph · Oct 19, 2005

The villain doesn't have to be likable. He only has to be motivated. So (echoing others) why does he do those villainous things?

SC Harrison · Oct 19, 2005

Is he a sociopath with no concept of right and wrong, or is he merely warped by his own misguided perceptions?

Valona · Oct 19, 2005

I don't know if you've considered this, but earlier on in the story, can you make him/her sympathetic? Maybe even do a scene in his/her POV, or have someone talk to him/her, or describe him/her, so we get to care for him/her. But let the reader understand things about him/her so that, when he/she shows his/her real stripes, yes, it's a shock, but at the same time, the reader can nod his/her head and say "I should have seen it coming."

inanna · Oct 19, 2005

Hey...you guys are onto something. I think I've been analyzing his motives, but from a distance instead of through his eyes. I've been pulling back because frankly, his motives are melodramatic. But heck, the whole book has been up to this point, so why stop now. I'll embrace it!!

Just hope I can pull it off. And yes, I believe I am starting to overthink it instead of writing it. Just performance anxiety. Thanks guys.

Zonk · Oct 19, 2005

I believe JAR has given great advice, to which I would only add: have him enjoy it; give him appetites, and give him a characteristic that many would find valuable.

Even a psychopath like Hannibal Lecter frightens the dickens out of most readers because he is a polite, cultured cannibal. I believe that juxtaposing apparently irreconcilable characteristics like this have given us some of our most memorable villains.

Some backstory regarding how he came to be this way might help, too.

inanna · Oct 19, 2005

S C Harrison said:
Is he a sociopath with no concept of right and wrong, or is he merely warped by his own misguided perceptions?

He's sort of both, at least I would like him to be.

Valona said:
I don't know if you've considered this, but earlier on in the story, can you make him/her sympathetic? Maybe even do a scene in his/her POV, or have someone talk to him/her, or describe him/her, so we get to care for him/her. But let the reader understand things about him/her so that, when he/she shows his/her real stripes, yes, it's a shock, but at the same time, the reader can nod his/her head and say "I should have seen it coming."

This is excellent advice. I don't think I can work his charcater in much earlier than I have (at least for this draft), but if I can write a scene in this upcoming section that gives him this kind of dimension I will be thrilled.

DamaNegra · Oct 19, 2005

You know, a good thing would be getting into the villian's mind. Most of the time they don't think they are wrong, they just do what they think is 'right' and have a twisted point of view about what right is. If you are going to make it a very important part of the story, you could try and take him from there.

Cathy C · Oct 19, 2005

Also consider that sometimes villains are villains because they ENJOY it! There's a swirling, nearly erotic high for those who joyfully accept the power of life and death. Tell you what --- we did a full chapter from the POV of the villain in our latest ms. Take a look at it and see how we created three dimensions without going into his whole background. Just know that it's paranormal, so walk in knowing that shapeshifters exist, that they live a long time and that us regular humans don't know about them. I'll post it over in SYW, in the SciFi/Fantasy forum. The password is vista.

Here's the link: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=366708#post366708

Hope it helps! Do you see how little things are inserted to make the reader KNOW that there's a backstory on the villain? That he absolutely has a plan and a motive, even though you don't know what it is?

debraji · Oct 19, 2005

Make him funny, sarcastic, clumsy, have a weakness for Chinese food, vain, have a comb-over, love the Three Stooges, do Civil War reenactments when he's not maiming people....

jackie106 · Oct 20, 2005

Take a look at real bad guys. They have their own foibles, some of them too bizarre to make up. Kim Jong Il likes the NBA, American movies, the Internet, sports cars and leggy blonde women. He is treated like a god in North Korea, but he is still very sensitive about his height and wears lifts in his shoes.

Hannah Arendt, who covered the trial of Adolf Eichmann for the New Yorker, wrote about the "banality of evil." Eichmann sent millions of Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables" to Nazi death camps, yet he was "normal" in all other respects.

Take a look at the biographies of truly evil people. Josef Stalin, Timothy McVeigh, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden and many, many other sickos believed that killing people for their cause was 100% justified.

Jackie

katiemac · Oct 20, 2005

To go along with others have said, in a simpler manner:

The villian believes he is the hero.

Perhaps you don't have a problem with the villian, but with his cause?

scarletpeaches · Oct 20, 2005

Call him Colin. That would scare the arse off me.

KelseyF · Oct 20, 2005

Lol, why Colin?

I'm just a newbie, and still in the process of sketching out my own characters, including a villain, so this thread has been very useful for me.

Just out of curiousity, inanna, do you write characterizations first? How many of you do? I started to, but I find myself changing so much of it while actually writing, I'm starting to wonder what the point is.

fedorable1 · Oct 20, 2005

My definition of a "Villain" is fairly simple, and it may help you:

A Villain is a character that goes left when the Hero goes right.

Villains don't necessarily need to be evil or sadistic. Sometimes they are normal (or extraordinary) people that have an opposing viewpoint. Think of people like Magneto in the X-Men, or Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide. The Hero should look at the Villain as a mirror that has been somehow warped.

Tippy · Oct 20, 2005

What frightens me the most about a bad guy, is his ability to hide his horrific nature from the rest of the world. His demeanor so smooth, so slick, that the reader is aghast at the way the innocent heroine trusts this degenerate.

We, the reader know he killed his last girlfriend with an ice pick, but our lovely heroine doesn't - and she thinks she may be falling in love. The man of her dreams. Love is blind. And so on.

I like bad guys who pull off an act like the serial killer who was recently apprehended - BTK. Church President, model citizen, Boy Scout leader...and yet, at home alone, he collected trinkets from his 'kills', saving them right under his trusting wife's nose. He fooled the police for three decades, and the day before he was finally busted - his Pastor said he brought a casserole to the Church. Same church where a decade earlier he posed the dead body of one of his victims - for photos.

That is the kind of bad guy that grabs my attention and won't let go. His evil runs deep - and for most of the world - unseen. That's what makes him so dangerous.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 20, 2005

KelseyF said:
Lol, why Colin?

I'm just a newbie, and still in the process of sketching out my own characters, including a villain, so this thread has been very useful for me.

Just out of curiousity, inanna, do you write characterizations first? How many of you do? I started to, but I find myself changing so much of it while actually writing, I'm starting to wonder what the point is.

I really and truly dislike writing character charts and the like. They never seem to create characters I believe in. I prefer characters that come alive on teh page, that draw everything from the story, and let the story draw from them.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 20, 2005

Villains

My favorite villains aren't villains at all. They're just people who want something opposite of what the hero wants, or often wants the same thing teh hero wants, and the only reason they're considered the bad guy is because the hero wins.

fallenangelwriter · Oct 20, 2005

when making a truly evil character, i start with something generally considered good, then warp and twist it until it's horrible.

I don't know what drives your villain, but i've had luck wiht love, loyalty, ambition, even altruism (nothing scarier than someone convinced he has your best interest at heart while he ruins your life)

SC Harrison · Oct 20, 2005

The scary thing (to me) about sociopaths and/or psychopaths is their ability to fool people. Egocentricity and ambition can drive them to excel, landing many into positions of wealth and influence. In our society, these accomplishments are lauded, leading people to assume the person is not only sane, they can also be trusted. A nice suit and tie can open many doors, simply because of accepted social norms.

One of my bad guys is a retired Marine, who did a few tours in Vietnam. Now a stalwart member of the community that people feel safer around, he still occasionally uses the Kabar knife he learned how to kill with in the jungle. He is not a stalker in the classic sense. He just goes about his day like normal, but every now and then some unlucky person does something that flicks a switch, and he responds, with about as much emotion as he puts into brushing his teeth. There's really nothing about him to love or hate, so I guess I didn't develop him properly. He's still pretty spooky, though.

Stacey Sweeney · Oct 20, 2005

Whenever I have a character that is kind of flat, I make a list of every possible characteristic they might have. Physical, mental, etc. It's just a brainstorming type list and some stuff on my list never comes up in the story, but at least I have a clear picture in my mind of who I'm talking about. If I can't come up with enough characteristics, I turn on a show that's relevant (Law and Order SVU, a Lifetime movie, etc) and use that as motivation to help my character along. It helps me add little bits and pieces about that character that make him/her come to life a little more.

My bad guy sucks. Any advice?

inanna

Queen of Typos

pepperlandgirl

American Aquarium Drinker

inanna

Queen of Typos

Celia Cyanide

Joker Groupie

Jamesaritchie

reph

Fig of authority

SC Harrison

Dances With Hamsters

Valona

inanna

Queen of Typos

Zonk

inanna

Queen of Typos

DamaNegra

Mexican on the loose!

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

debraji

jackie106

katiemac

Five by Five

scarletpeaches

KelseyF

fedorable1

Hopeless Romantic

Tippy

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

fallenangelwriter

SC Harrison

Dances With Hamsters

Stacey Sweeney