"Where's the non-fiction...oh, in the corner?"

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Qualified to Write?

There once was a trade mag for writing and in it they asked some agents what they wantedwhen they got a proposal for a work of creative nonfiction. One agent said, “I need to know why an author is qualified to write what they’re writing.” Ok, maybe she was talking about publishing a book about how to build a duck pond. Another agent wanted to see a story arc when they get a proposal for a memoir. These two genres are miles apart but included together in the section about what agents want to see in queries.

This begs the query, What is nonfiction? I’ve seen the term “literary nonfiction” applied to memoir and I’ve seen “creative nonfiction” described the same way. Nonfiction says, “True Story”, to my sensibilities. For the root fictionem from Latin meaning " fashioning or feigning" we could say to make, as in making something up . So, nonfiction could be translated as "not making" or I guess not making up. “Memoir”, to me, says that someone is writing an autobiography replete with tales of living among humanity for so long that it’s time they told everybody what they think, you know, like they are famous.

I’m not famous and I know nothing about duck ponds, except they usually smell quite fowl. So, what a conundrum, right? Where are we - us that see life as one big serendipitous, metaphorical play? Obviously there is a market for us out there with writers like Thomas Farber, Simon Winchester and Paul Theroux. But we are more and we have a voice! We should unite and demand a section at Barnes&Noble. When I go in there to ask what they have in the way of nonfiction, a glaze forms over the pro bookseller’s eyes and they begin pointing in directions relevant to biographies and travel and then they walk off before you can say duck pond.

Where is the nonfiction section? Really have you ever noticed how many fiction books there are in any given bookstore? But being in a non-niche has its advantages because hey, we are rare. But why, why are we so rare in this world that worships celebrities as deities, thinks that Paris Hilton is actually human and believes that virtual reality is real? Maybe the question answers the question. It is because of these things that we are rare.

I love reading a true story precisely because it is true and not a hyped image of something that isn't real anyway. It happened somewhere and to somebody and hopefully they survived, but if they didn’t; well, it is still interesting and it is interesting because it happened to another human. And that it happened to one of my brothers or sisters out there means that it is possible – it could happen even to lowly me.

Maybe in this unreal world, real stories are just too boring. Maybe it is a necessity to dream about being a supermodel while working under fluorescent lights in a cubicle on the 23rd floor of another cubicle. Maybe the drudgery of survival is so demeaning that we must, we have to learn to fly in our day and night dreams to escape our present nothingness level of existence; and to read about my adventures isn't enough to pull a cubicle head out of the soup de drudge.

Don’t get me wrong I love good fiction, but can we have some balance please!?

So long for now.
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,312
I think that there is actually many times more nonfiction than fiction at the book stores. Memoirs, autobiographies, biographies, history, how-to, self-help, travel, cookbooks, reference, and books on practically every conceivable topic. I'm not sure where you are getting this...
 

firedrake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
9,251
Reaction score
7,297
Eh?

I don't think I've seen a single book shop without a non-fiction section.

What stores are you going to?
 

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Just talking about literary, creative non-fiction ... not biography, not just travel (and travel essays are not that abundant), not cookbooks or duck ponds. I'm talking an essay form of non-fiction that explores the direct experience of the writer and how he/she sees and experiences life, photography, painting and walking down the sidewalk, please see Geoff Dwyer's Working the Room,
David Shields' Reality Hunger and Jorge Luis Borges' Other Inquisitions 1937-1952.

The aforementioned form is sorely underrepresented. The other forms have been around for a while. I'm here trying to see if anyone at all has read anything at all of what I speak of.

Thanks for the reply
 

firedrake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
9,251
Reaction score
7,297
Ah, ok.

You may have a point there.
 

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Thanks for the reply!
Actually, I've just moved to an island in North Wales called, Anglesey. Maybe my post is part hyperbole and part truth, but what isn't? Where I live there are no bookstores.

But see my next post which will hopefully qualify my entry above.
g
 
Last edited:

firedrake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
9,251
Reaction score
7,297
Thanks for the reply!
Actually, I've just moved to an island in North Wales called, Anglesey. Maybe my post is part hyperbole and part truth, but what isn't. Where I live there are no bookstores.

But see my next post which will hopefully qualify my entry above.
g

Ah, well...Anglesey say no more. :D

From what I recall, there's not much of anything on Anglesey apart from the ferry port, the village with the long, unpronounceable name and lots of stones.
 

Royal Mercury

I think I am, therefore....
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Messages
211
Reaction score
11
I agree that Non-fiction is a way-too-large, amorphous category. They say non-fiction sells more, but I suspect that this is mostly dummies books on how to connect to the internet, or child care in 4 hours a week kind of stuff. I imagine Paul Theroux sells quantities more in line with fiction authors.
 

Purple Rose

practical experience, FTW
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
963
Website
alxblog.net
Actually, I've just moved to an island in North Wales called, Anglesey.

You poor thing...ha ha. Ok just kidding. Way out in the boonies. Just don't post in Welsh :)

Anyway, I am not sure what the British market is like for memoirs. Strange country the UK - even the men read Hello and OK magazines and the tabloids enjoy high redaership. People swallow whole other people's stories and gossip about Lewis Hamilton and girl bands but are reluctant to share their own. Stiff upper lip across all classes, I'd say.

So, maybe a stroll through Hachettes will show that most memoirs are American?

Regardless, I'd say just write. If it's a good story, it will get published and people will buy it.
 

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Memoir is getting closer to what I'm writing, but not it exactly.
On my site there are links to my blog and hopefully my writing can illustrate
some sort of genre.

In an earlier post I mention some writers that embody the spirit I'm aspiring to.

Thanks for reply!
 

Purple Rose

practical experience, FTW
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
2,129
Reaction score
963
Website
alxblog.net
Ultimately, a publisher is going to want to know the genre at the time of submission, specifically on which bookshelf will it sit in a bookstore.

Keep writing. When it's finished, keep reading your ms and ask other readers to read it. The genre will just fall into place, I'm sure. Sometimes it starts off that hard and then suddenly it becomes that easy.

Good luck!
 

Ruth2

Tam, na Koncu Drevoreda
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Messages
8,910
Reaction score
490
Location
In your dreams...
Hmmm... it's sounds sort of like E.B.White's nonfiction. Literary nonfiction.

Good luck with whatever you call it. One of my WIPs is a memoir.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,937
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
I agree that Non-fiction is a way-too-large, amorphous category. They say non-fiction sells more, but I suspect that this is mostly dummies books on how to connect to the internet, or child care in 4 hours a week kind of stuff. I imagine Paul Theroux sells quantities more in line with fiction authors.

I would suggest that it is most representative of the sum of the world's knowledge: history, science, fine arts, commerce and so many more things. And that's a lot to compete with.
 

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Thanks Ruth 2

I think that Ruth is closest to what I'm looking for in this post. Originally, I posted to see if there were many out there interested in any of the writers I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Ruth suggested essays from E.B. White, which I will definitely check out.

Anyone else read David Shields, Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Farber or checked out my website to see what I'm going on about?

I'm not interested in escaping reality, I'm interested in delving into reality and writing about how we express our uniquity (Horace Walpole, who is also responsible for coining the word serendipity). I'm fascinated that everything has already been done and said, yet we still find a unique way to present it as if it were brand new.

So, in a way it is history, individual history; and how the individual plays his unique hand.
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,312
What I've heard about memoirs and other "personal" books, for lack of a better word, is that there are just way more of them written than anybody wants to read. That many people find their own impressions, personal experiences and such unique and amazing. But that readers often find them average and boring. Maybe that's why there aren't more of them. Just what I heard, I dunno. It does make sense though. If my house burns down or I "see the light" in some way or whatever, I guarantee I'll think that is quite the big event. But reading about some stranger experiencing the same things, meh. Haven't read what you're talking about so may not apply to OP.
 
Last edited:

Ruth2

Tam, na Koncu Drevoreda
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Messages
8,910
Reaction score
490
Location
In your dreams...
One thing I've noticed about E.B. White is that his nonfiction, while being memoir-ish, is more observation on what's going on around him rather than "this happened to me and this is what I got out of it."

Another you might check into is Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. It's a memoir but it's also more literary nonfiction than most.
 

FocusOnEnergy

Empirical Storm Trooper
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 30, 2011
Messages
302
Reaction score
37
Location
The Mos Eisley Spaceport
Website
focusonenergy.wordpress.com
What I've heard about memoirs and other "personal" books, for lack of a better word, is that there are just way more of them written than anybody wants to read. That many people find their own impressions, personal experiences and such unique and amazing. But that readers often find them average and boring. Maybe that's why there aren't more of them. Just what I heard, I dunno. It does make sense though. If my house burns down or I "see the light" in some way or whatever, I guarantee I'll think that is quite the big event. But reading about some stranger experiencing the same things, meh. Haven't read what you're talking about so may not apply to OP.

I agree on that. I read almost exclusively non-fiction, but it's usually something related to the subject I'm currently interested in/researching/etc. Sometimes they are memoirs, but they are always related to that topic. Many of them are written by journalists, or other experts in the field that the topic is about.

Unless the memoir is related to a specific topic, or it's by someone who has lived through something extraordinary, I don't read memoirs, because I agree with Fruitbat's "meh".

Focus
 

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
15,382
Reaction score
14,630
Location
west coast, canada
Another 'F' agrees with Fruitbat and Focus. Not that interested in generic memoirs or observations. I might read an essay about someone's experience in a magazine, but that's about it.
If there isn't a shelf for it in bookstores, there's probably a reason.
 

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Meh? ... Meh!

What I've heard about memoirs and other "personal" books, for lack of a better word, is that there are just way more of them written than anybody wants to read.

If my house burns down or I "see the light"

[QUOTE that readers often find them average and boring.[/QUOTE]

A disclaimer: Sorry, don't know how to do the out-quote thing so I just helped myself to cutting and pasting other parts of the thread.


Now, I think we are getting somewhere! We are discussing and finding out how our opinions and views differ. Though I only have a couple of preconceived notions it will be enough for me to get closer to the core, the source.

I'm with you Fruitbat, as I don't want to know about seeing the light. But I wouldn't mind reading a well written essay that may lead me to perceiving something I had never thought of before. Do simple, universal epiphanies only come from the famous or downtrodden? I think not! I think all around us, moment to moment, if we only take the time, are the unique interactions of unique individuals who, through their actions, are displaying universal human traits with which we can all identify. As simply and eloquently put by Ruth 2 below:

One thing I've noticed about E.B. White is that his nonfiction, while being memoir-ish, is more observation on what's going on around him rather than "this happened to me and this is what I got out of it."

In this what-is-going-on-around-me essay there may or may not be a story arc, but to be not-so-subtle, So What! Where are we now but in a society, a culture that lives off the snippet or the nugget of information shot to us via a photon of light through a very, very long very important cable. This forum is not a novel, a biography or a brilliant research paper - it is timely, human interaction from lowly me and from some others whom I can't speak for regarding their status in the hierarchy of everything. But, I want to make the point clear - we are intensely interested in everyone and connected to everyone - so, why disguise our concern in staid, boring formulaic plots? Human stories not interesting, boring? Then why are you online reading this and everything else you are reading that is here, immediately and intensely human!?

In "Other Inquisitions 1937-1952" Jorge Luis Borges says, "In the course of a lifetime dedicated less to living than to reading, I have been able to verify repeatedly that aims and literary theories are nothing but stimuli; the finished work frequently ignores and even contradicts them. If the writer has something of value within him, no aim, however trite or erroneous it may be, will succeed in affecting his work irreparably." He goes on to say that if the writer is responding to a genuine vision his work could never be considered "absurd."

As I move onto other things to stimulate, I do like the idea of literary theories only being stimuli! If we stay with this idea, we are bound to realize that this movement of stimulation and response is much like bio-diversity, I think I shall call it "logo-diversity", in that if literature continues interbreeding, we will find ourselves with some awful anomalies like one more book about vampires. We need to keep the word and words healthy and diverse with an abundance of ways of telling.
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,312
To answer your last post, I don't recall saying anything about liking "staid, boring, formulaic plots." But if forced to choose between that and someone's personal rant, then the staid boring thing begins to look pretty good. JMHO.
 
Last edited:

onepercussive

Apparent Being Searching Anomalies
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
26
Reaction score
2
Location
Moelfre, Isle of Anglesey
Website
www.wordraptor.com
Just wondering about "boring rant"?
Reference to boring, staid things I'm expanding the idea that we get into ruts about how we expect to receive our information.

Was mine a rant? and boring?

gosh