Specific Question About My Novel

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

The novel I am working on is about a woman who once wanted to be a novelist when she was younger, but gave up because she has a chip on her shoulder about the publishing industry. She then gets kidnapped by a woman she went to college with, who has become a publisher, and who forces her to write a novel.

I am in NO way trying to write a satire about the publishing industry. The protagonist is not supposed to represent all publishers. She is simply an insane person who happens to BE a publisher. The protagonist's problem is her own. She just chooses to blame it on the publishing industry, and she got the idea because of her experience with this woman she went to college with.

My question is...would a publisher potentially be bothered by this? Just the idea that the antagonist is an evil publisher, and the protagonist dislikes publishers. And advice, or warnings? Or any, "Celia, you're worrying too much again?"

Hang of Thursdays · Oct 19, 2005

You'll forgive me, I hope, but I think you might need to worry more about the Mary Sue aspect of the story than the "will publishers hate it because it demonizes them?" aspect.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

No, I don't want to be a publisher, evil or otherwise. And I don't have a problem with the industry. Apart from that, I think I'll let someone who actually knows me worry about that aspect.

Hang of Thursdays · Oct 19, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
Apart from that, I think I'll let someone who actually knows me worry about that aspect.

Fair enough.

Dru · Oct 19, 2005

Regardless of your actual intentions, just beware that this kind of plot could be risky to pull off in a sales/agent pitch. It has been done before, there are certainly plenty of published authors who have MC who are in publishing or journalists and such, Misery comes to mind as well.

This might set of different people's radar, and not in a positive vein.

If you can handle the storyline in a professional manner, great. There still may be a decent number of people who read such a synopsis and discard it as cathartic writing or Mary Sueism. You might not have issues with the industry, but a three-line summary like that does kind of read like you do.

Finish the story and then make sure that any summary work or synopsis writing is vetted prior to release?

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Dru said:
If you can handle the storyline in a professional manner, great. There still may be a decent number of people who read such a synopsis and discard it as cathartic writing or Mary Sueism. You might not have issues with the industry, but a three-line summary like that does kind of read like you do.

Finish the story and then make sure that any summary work or synopsis writing is vetted prior to release?

I'm confused now...I thought Mary Suism was for people who write crappy fan fiction? And the idea was to make the character better than yourself, not worse?

If it helps, the stuff about the characters' issues with the industry would not really be important enough to go into a plot synopsis. The issue is that the character is no longer writing, and this is the explanation she gives when someone asks her why.

inanna · Oct 19, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
I'm confused now...I thought Mary Suism was for people who write crappy fan fiction? And the idea was to make the character better than yourself, not worse?

I think the advice you've been given is wise, given what little we know about your novel. I'm sure it's more complex than what you're able to summarize here, but just like Dru said, the reaction to a query might be a little knee-jerkish (for lack of a better term at the moment

).

Hey...is this going to turn into a Mary Sue thread? 'Cause I will definitely stick around for that. I got all kinds of issues with Mary Sue stuff.

Valona · Oct 19, 2005

Personally, I wouldn't be so worried about your sounding as if you are down on the publishing industry. Writers can use any avenue they want when creating a compelling story. What concerns me is your plot plausibility and target audience. I'm not sure anyone would want to read a book about an ex-writer who is being forced to write by a mad person. To me, it sounds boring. Maybe if I knew more about your book I could feel better about it, but your three-line intro didn't catch my interest.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Valona said:
To me, it sounds boring. Maybe if I knew more about your book I could feel better about it, but your three-line intro didn't catch my interest.

That's fine, you don't have to read it. I don't read books that sound boring to me, either. Thanks for responding to my original question.

Hang of Thursdays · Oct 19, 2005

Valona said:
I'm not sure anyone would want to read a book about an ex-writer who is being forced to write by a mad person. To me, it sounds boring.

Tell that to Stephen King. (shrugs)

</obligatory Misery reference>

The problem with writers writing about writers is that they tend to be great avenues for Mary Sues -- which I define as characters with hopes and dreams and fears that mirror too much, and to too great an extreme, the hopes and dreams and fears of the author. An author has writer's block, so he writes about a writer who has writer's block. An author is spurned by the publishing industry, and writes about a writer spurned by the publishing industry.

You're right, we can't know what the rest of your novel is about, and whether or not your antagonists' chosen profession is as truly incidental as you say it is (my thoughts on the matter: if it's so incidental, why not change the antagonist's profession? Make her a doctor or lawyer who can't understand why anyone would waste time writing, and who berated and criticized the protagonist.) Right now your protagonist sounds a bit ineffectual. Chips on the shoulder are fine, IMO, when they motivate a character towards action. But a chip on the shoulder that motivates someone to not do anything? That's a harder stretch in fiction, and I'd personally find it boring.

(Now's the time for someone to give a snarky response to me, noting that such and such an author actually pulled that gimmick off with astounding aplomb.)

victoriastrauss · Oct 19, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
The novel I am working on is about a woman who once wanted to be a novelist when she was younger, but gave up because she has a chip on her shoulder about the publishing industry. She then gets kidnapped by a woman she went to college with, who has become a publisher, and who forces her to write a novel.

Isn't this publisher's slush pile big enough already?

Seriously, why does the publisher do this? There are easier ways to find a manuscript.

- Victoria

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Hang of Thursdays said:
The problem with writers writing about writers is that they tend to be great avenues for Mary Sues -- which I define as characters with hopes and dreams and fears that mirror too much, and to too great an extreme, the hopes and dreams and fears of the author. An author has writer's block, so he writes about a writer who has writer's block. An author is spurned by the publishing industry, and writes about a writer spurned by the publishing industry.

Thank you for clarifying that...by Mary Sue, I thought you meant, writing about yourself, because you want something exciting to happen to you, which is not what this is. I'm not going to explain all the ways in which this character is not me, because I'm not even concerned about that. I guess that makes sense, although the protagonist is more representative of all people who gave up on their dreams. She's not spurned by the publishing industry at all. She hasn't really even tried. That was just an excuse she made for not trying.

"You're right, we can't know what the rest of your novel is about, and whether or not your antagonists' chosen profession is as truly incidental as you say it is (my thoughts on the matter: if it's so incidental, why not change the antagonist's profession? Make her a doctor or lawyer who can't understand why anyone would waste time writing, and who berated and criticized the protagonist.)"

This is taking a lot more explanation that I thought it would...sorry. The antagonist's profession is not completely incidental to the story. It is, however, completely incidental to her being insane.

"Right now your protagonist sounds a bit ineffectual. Chips on the shoulder are fine, IMO, when they motivate a character towards action. But a chip on the shoulder that motivates someone to not do anything? That's a harder stretch in fiction, and I'd personally find it boring."

Okay, why do you say that? What, if anything, would be a good thing that would motivate a character not to do something? In real life, people do choose not to do things they once wanted to do. So why is this such a stretch, and what should be different about it?

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
Isn't this publisher's slush pile big enough already?

Seriously, why does the publisher do this? There are easier ways to find a manuscript.

- Victoria

that part, I wasn't planning on going into...but since you asked...

It was because she knew her, and decided that she would not let her give up. She likes having power over other people, and believes she knows what is best for everyone, and if she has to push them a little too hard, so be it. They will thank her later, she believes.

Hang of Thursdays · Oct 19, 2005

Celia Cyanide said:
Thank you for clarifying that...by Mary Sue, I thought you meant, writing about yourself, because you want something exciting to happen to you, which is not what this is.

That's the common definition of the Mary Sue, but I'll admit that you writing about a writer being forced at gunpoint to write a novel does not sound like something I, personally, would want to happen to me. I suspect the same is true of you. Sometimes it might be the best option for us, though (looks at open word doc. of WIP, and the blinking cursor.)

What I perceive -- and I'm just speaking about perception here, not reality -- from your brief snippet, that you might have it in for the publishing industry, and thus you want to have your antagonist be a publisher holding a gun at the author in a very literal sense to drive home the point of the metaphorical "bring me a ms. on time!" Getting too literary.)

In which case, if you planned on demonizing the publish industry in such a way, you'd definitely having a problem selling it.

I'm not going to explain all the ways in which this character is not me, because I'm not even concerned about that.

Right, and I don't expect you to. I didn't mean to put you in a position where that was an issue.

She's not spurned by the publishing industry at all.

Just an example on my part.

This is taking a lot more explanation that I thought it would...sorry. The antagonist's profession is not completely incidental to the story. It is, however, completely incidental to her being insane.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

What, if anything, would be a good thing that would motivate a character not to do something?

In my opinion, and it's just that, nothing would. Unless motivation was, you know, life and death: Don't move or the bomb will go off and blow up New York. That'd be a good motivation to just sit and hang out.

In real life, people do choose not to do things they once wanted to do.

But would you want to read about it?

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Hang of Thursdays said:
What I perceive -- and I'm just speaking about perception here, not reality -- from your brief snippet, that you might have it in for the publishing industry, and thus you want to have your antagonist be a publisher holding a gun at the author in a very literal sense to drive home the point of the metaphorical "bring me a ms. on time!" Getting too literary.)

In which case, if you planned on demonizing the publish industry in such a way, you'd definitely having a problem selling it.

Yeah, see, that's what I'm getting at. I do NOT want to do that. I want to try and present it in such a way that I indicate that this woman is not a typical publisher at all. My problem is that I don't have it in for the publishing industry, and I don't want it to sound that way. My manuscript, thus far, doesn't really read that way, but a plot synopsis might. It isn't really about the publishing industry, so much as it's about how a woman reacts to being forced to do something she probably wanted to do, but never tried. And the fact that it's still wrong to force her, even thought she wanted it. The antagonist also forces her to do something else she was afraid to do, but that's neither here, nor there.

But I do see what you're saying. About whole the Mary Sue thing. In my opinion, Misery reads like someone who's sick of someone standing over his shoulder, saying, "No, make this happen! Take that out, it's too weird! He didn't get out of the cockadoodie car!" And him saying to himself, "You're missing the dang point of the story!" Having said that, Misery is still a great story, and interesting to people who have never had an editor do that to them.

In answer to your question...would I want to read about someone who chose not to follow their dream? Well, no...if that were all it were about. My background is in film more than literature, so I'll make a comparison to one of my favorites, The Big Lebowski. The Dude is a slacker. He never really does anything, except at the prompting of others. He's just along for the ride. What is interesting about my protagonist (I hope) is not that she didn't follow her dreams, but because of what happens to her as a result of this decision. Her choice to get a job and give up writing is more of what makes her a human character that (again, I'm hoping) people can relate to. No matter who you are, you probably have something you always wanted to do, but never tried. As Lily Tomlin once said, what if we all became what we wanted to be when we grew up? Imagine, a world filled with cowboys, firemen, nurses and ballerinas!

veinglory · Oct 19, 2005

It would depend on how it was written but as it is specifically not commenting on publishing in general why not have the villain not be a publisher?

Saanen · Oct 19, 2005

My immediate thought was, "Oh no, not another book about a writer who can't/won't/feels she's lost her chance to/resents her lost chance to write." But the more I think about it, the more I think you might be able to pull this off and make it interesting--but only if you give your publisher character a powerful (and plausible) reason to do this. It's got to be something beyond the publisher being kind of crazy and knowing that the main character should have been a writer. I'm thinking more along the lines of the publisher being truly crazy and thinking the writer is, say, a reincarnated Shakespeare or Dickens. Or maybe the publisher is crazy and believes the writer is actually her younger self, who instead of pursuing her own writing went into publishing. Or perhaps the writer is actually a reincarnated Shakespeare or Dickens and the only one who knows is the publisher, who has tried unsuccessfully to get the writer to stop denying her impulses to write. Or what if the writer character actually has no wish to be a writer--she got a taste of the publishing world by accident (wrote a tell-all that was unexpectedly successful, or something along those lines) and is only too happy to leave it behind, but the publisher for some compelling reason needs her to write a sequel/follow-up book?

I'm sure you can come up with much better ideas. But I'd suggest making the story hinge on the reason the publisher wants so badly for the writer to write, rather than focusing on the writer, the writing process, or the resulting book.

What if the writer's resulting book is truly, truly awful?

Hang of Thursdays · Oct 19, 2005

Okay. Good points, all. I'd ask you, though, just how important the antagonist's profession is to her actions. If it's absolutely essential, you risk turning off some people -- publishers included -- simply because it *sounds bad*. You mentioned that the antagonist is doing this to the protagonist "for her own good" (or what the antag. sees as being in the protag.'s best interest). If they're friends, or used to be, anyway, then the job seems less and less an issue, perhaps even nonessential, and if you CAN get rid of it, and replace it with something else, then do.

I take your point about the Dude, though I think the key to that was that he was so willing to do what they asked him just so he could get back to slacking. If that's where you're going with your novel, I think that'd probably work.

I realize I spoke too soon about the chip on the shoulder motivating someone to do nothing. Just don't have them doing NOTHING throughout the entire book. In fact, I'm not really sure where I was going with that. So ignore it.

reph · Oct 19, 2005

Hang of Thursdays said:
But a chip on the shoulder that motivates someone to not do anything? That's a harder stretch in fiction, and I'd personally find it boring.

It happens in real life.

Celia, the publisher as you describe her could be an interesting antagonist. She's quite a control freak; that's part of her craziness. (Poorly differentiated; she doesn't respect the protagonist's boundaries.) I don't see, though, why she has to be a publisher. She could be someone who wants the protag to ghostwrite something for her or collaborate with her on a book – a random example.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Saanen, very interesting comments...

Saanen said:
It's got to be something beyond the publisher being kind of crazy and knowing that the main character should have been a writer...
I'm sure you can come up with much better ideas. But I'd suggest making the story hinge on the reason the publisher wants so badly for the writer to write, rather than focusing on the writer, the writing process, or the resulting book.

Yes, that is kind of what I'm going for...I have a lot in mind for what I want to do with that character. Because the main character is perfectly comfortable with her life, but there are reasons why the antagonist would not allow it. I'm not going to go into it here, because it wouldn't be very helpful, and at this point, totally uninteresting to anyone but me. But that is helpful feedback, thank you. Actually, the crazier she is, the less likely she will be seen as a representative of the publishing industry.

Saanen said:
What if the writer's resulting book is truly, truly awful?

This is probably not that relevent, either, but I'm thinking the resulting book is truly, truly bizarre, the result of the main character being locked up for so long. It's not going to be the main focus of the story, but it's in there, and the publisher probably thinks it's genius. She's got her reasons.

vainglory...I had actually thought of that. But I can't really think of any other profession someone would be into who would do something like this. Can you? I mean, I know what you're thinking. "Gee, Celia, I don't know anyone, anywhere who would do something like this." But seriously, it would have to be someone else who was interested in literature, but rich enough to pull it off. Who else? A successful writer?

carley · Oct 19, 2005

Saanen said:
My immediate thought was, "Oh no, not another book about a writer who can't/won't/feels she's lost her chance to/resents her lost chance to write." But the more I think about it, the more I think you might be able to pull this off and make it interesting--but only if you give your publisher character a powerful (and plausible) reason to do this. It's got to be something beyond the publisher being kind of crazy and knowing that the main character should have been a writer. I'm thinking more along the lines of the publisher being truly crazy and thinking the writer is, say, a reincarnated Shakespeare or Dickens. Or maybe the publisher is crazy and believes the writer is actually her younger self, who instead of pursuing her own writing went into publishing. Or perhaps the writer is actually a reincarnated Shakespeare or Dickens and the only one who knows is the publisher, who has tried unsuccessfully to get the writer to stop denying her impulses to write. Or what if the writer character actually has no wish to be a writer--she got a taste of the publishing world by accident (wrote a tell-all that was unexpectedly successful, or something along those lines) and is only too happy to leave it behind, but the publisher for some compelling reason needs her to write a sequel/follow-up book?

I'm sure you can come up with much better ideas. But I'd suggest making the story hinge on the reason the publisher wants so badly for the writer to write, rather than focusing on the writer, the writing process, or the resulting book.

What if the writer's resulting book is truly, truly awful?

I have a feeling that this is what Celia is going for, at least something along these lines anyway. Somebody said something about the publisher holding a gun to the writer's head and forcing her to write and I couldn't find anything in Celia's posts suggesting such a thing.

I'm a bit disappointed by some of these posts on this thread. It's seems to be a slam fest (except the above quoted post). Celia asked a question and everybody jumped in and bashed her idea and it's disheartening. She believes in her idea and I for one support her in it. How would you all felt if people jumped all over you and told you that your ideas were dumb or boring or whatever?

Just my two cents and sorry if it's offensive. Maybe I'm reading these posts wrong or just not getting the responses from the some of the posters, but it seems a little nasty in here.

veinglory · Oct 19, 2005

A person who wanted to write but finally realised she couldn't--abducts the woman to write for her and plans to kill her at the end and pass the manuscript off as he own? Sort of the literary version of that woman who abducted a pregnant lady to cut out her baby.

emeraldcite · Oct 19, 2005

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Jamesaritchie · Oct 19, 2005

carley said:
I have a feeling that this is what Celia is going for, at least something along these lines anyway. Somebody said something about the publisher holding a gun to the writer's head and forcing her to write and I couldn't find anything in Celia's posts suggesting such a thing..

Well, she did say the writer was kidnapped by the publisher and was then forced to write a book. If not a literal gun, then certainly a figurative one.

How would you all felt if people jumped all over you and told you that your ideas were dumb or boring or whatever?

.

Like I was reading the reviews of my novels all over again.

Anyway, I think people are just trying to help, mostly by brainstorming on the idea, looking for motivation or a better angle. And giving honest opinions concerning the validity of the idea. People should say what they think. Celia can accept or ignore according to what she thinks.

Celia Cyanide · Oct 19, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
Anyway, I think people are just trying to help, mostly by brainstorming on the idea, looking for motivation or a better angle. And giving honest opinions concerning the validity of the idea. People should say what they think. Celia can accept or ignore according to what she thinks.

I can appreciate this, but I do understand what Carley meant. I was a little disheartened at first, because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I don't mean to say that I only wanted to hear, "That's the most brilliant idea I've ever heard!" But because, in my original post, I never asked, "Is this boring/interesting? Would you read it?" I wanted to know if a publisher would be bothered about the antagonist being a publisher. I didn't really explain everything about the idea because my question was about only a specific aspect of it. So when people were replying by saying, "Don't worry about offending publishers, worry about the fact that it's boring!" I was a little frustrated, because that didn't really answer my question. When I send it in to a publisher, I expect to get a letter back saying, "Nobody wants your book!" Not, "This book is the least of your problems! You're ugly, too!"

The irony was that I was forced (ha!) to elaborate more on what I was doing with it, which resulted in some great feedback on other aspects of the story I hadn't planned on. I have no hard feelings toward anyone here. But I think Carley was just noticing that, at first, people were giving negative opinions, rather than just answering my question. Thanks, everyone, for your input.

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