Convenience vs. Quality

Nightmirror · Mar 10, 2011

So I've been testing the waters for reading e-books, and I'm not sure what to think. I must admit that being able to read from a Kindle seems pretty convenient--much more convenient than lagging around my laptop or a bunch of paperback copies. But then there's the question of quality. So far I've only read a single book via Kindle for PC (one from the $dollar menu), so I'll be the first to say that I don't know much about this field of writing. The book I read had a good storyline, though slightly predictable, and likable characters. There was one thing, however, that bugged me almost to point of making me put the book down--or in this case, shutting off the computer screen. The grammar was atrocious. I know, I know. I should just get over it. The book was only a dollar after all, and you get what you pay for.

Then I decided to give Amanda Hocking a read. I've heard a lot about her, and her book Trylle was also on the very affordable dollar menu. So I started reading, and I encountered the same problem I had with the last book. The grammar was so off that I was getting confused. People are shrugging and nodding their dialogue all over the place. Jeez, if you shrug one more time your shoulders are going to fall off! On top of that, the beginning of the story was about as original as the Twilight spin-offs. Okay, so they're trolls with super powers instead of vampires with super powers. But still, I wasn't impressed with the whole creeper-stalking-you-by-the-bedside thing.

I'm not posting this to bash Amanda Hocking; I haven't even finished reading her book. Maybe it will get better toward the end. Maybe she's just as talented as people say she is, albeit with a need for education in basic grammar. It just concerns me that so many people are reading her book when it contains mistakes that glare off the page. It makes me wonder what kind of effect it will have on books in the future. Will bending the rules of grammar become commonplace because success gives one the ability to rewrite them however they so please?

I'm not posting this to say e-publishing is bad: I think it can be a very good thing. In the near future I hope to purchase a Kindle so I can read all my favorite books with the convenience a Kindle offers. I just want to hear some of your thoughts.

valeriec80 · Mar 10, 2011

Will bending the rules of grammar become commonplace?

It already is. It's how language survives. When, for example, was the last time you said, "I shall eat dinner tonight" instead of "I will eat dinner"? Or when was the last time you used the subjunctive correctly (If he were a rich man vs. if he was a rich man)?

Both of these are just some of the many examples about how grammar rules get bent to the point they eventually start to drop out of the language.

You may not like it, but if you don't want English die like Latin did, you have to let it evolve.

(As a side note, in Renaissance England there were no formal rules for spelling or usage. Whoever printed stuff up just spelled it however he wanted to. You don't have hard and fast rules for usage coming into the language until the Enlightenment.)

PortableHal · Mar 10, 2011

Is this really an issue of convenience versus quality? There are a boatload of bad books out there and I begrudge losing a single dollar to a poor story. More expensive doesn't always mean higher quality. James Patterson's Private ran about fifteen dollars on Kindle and it ... well, we're not allowed to be negative toward other writers. Just know that I haven't bought another Patterson novel since and that purchase led me to start using the 'free sample' option on Amazon.

I did the free sample thing of Ms. Hocking's self-published first novel and knew I wouldn't want to read more. I like YA, I write YA, but a good editor makes a difference. Besides, as you said, maybe the book gets better toward the end.

I read the sample of A.S. Peterson's self-published The Fiddler's Gun and wanted more. It was, if memory serves, $2.99 on Amazon and worth every penny. (No, I don't know A.S. Peterson except as a member of AW, I'm not related to him, I don't owe him a favor. All I'm saying is, he wrote a fun novel.)

Of course, your mileage may differ.

efkelley · Mar 10, 2011

Well, there's letting grammar evolve and then there's 'Oh god, my eyes'.

A few steps to gauge what you're buying into, even on the dollar menu.

1 - Is the About blurb well-written? Nothing makes me run faster than errors in the blurb. Does it sound like something you'd like to read? If yes, then:

2 - Check the reviews. Are they all five-star reviews? If yes, then beware. Are they all one-star reviews? Again, beware. A smattering of reviews ranging upwards from 3 to 5? Sounds good. I know some people completely ignore the two ends of the spectrum and look at the twos and fours exclusively. It seems to net good enough results to go to:

3 - Is there a sample chapter or two? Not the whole book, but a full chapter, start to finish. If no, then run. You're into 'Give me a dollar, and I'll tell you a story' territory. If they're not confident enough to offer a sample, then, well... that says something. Even a short story can at least give you the first page.

Generally I follow this for all books, even from publishers and authors I know. A select few get a complete pass from me, and I'll pick it up regardless.

AmsterdamAssassin · Mar 11, 2011

What do you do when you see an attractive book at a bookseller's? You peruse the first page, see if the writing is to your liking.

Most self-pubbed authors have not been professionally edited and they don't know how to edit themselves, which means two strikes against them. However, for 99c you can afford to churn out work that isn't up to par with professional writing, because the mass market public isn't as perceptive about writing/editing skills as fellow writers.

I can't switch off my critical faculties - I read a lot of samples and throw them away if the writing sucks. Read the sample, read the reviews, before you spend your dollar.

Nightmirror · Mar 11, 2011

AmsterdamAssassin said:
Most self-pubbed authors have not been professionally edited and they don't know how to edit themselves, which means two strikes against them. However, for 99c you can afford to churn out work that isn't up to par with professional writing, because the mass market public isn't as perceptive about writing/editing skills as fellow writers.

That makes sense. I guess I was just a little baffled how someone could make millions from a book that has so many editing problems and grammatical issues. When I read, it's mostly for the story, but I also like to learn as much as I can from the writer, too. Second to writing, reading is the most effective way for me to learn how to improve my writing. I guess when I read certain e-books, I'll just have to read it for the story rather than the educational process. Thanks for helping to answer my question.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

If you have to self-publish your book, there's probably a very good reason for that.

Mr Flibble · Mar 11, 2011

Nightmirror said:
I'm not posting this to say e-publishing is bad: I think it can be a very good thing. In the near future I hope to purchase a Kindle so I can read all my favorite books with the convenience a Kindle offers. I just want to hear some of your thoughts.

Are you conflating e-pubbing with self pubbing? (for which there is a separate forum

) Not all ebooks are self published.

I think you'll find that if you buy books from actual e-pubbers rather than self-pubbers, you'll find a lot less grammar issues.

VoireyLinger · Mar 11, 2011

Epublished books get the same editing as print-published books. If the book is from a publishing house, it will have the same editing and line edits as a print book. If you buy self-published, you get writing at whatever level the author writes and edits. The main difference between epublished and print is that epublished has no galleys, so typos can slip by more easily.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

IdiotsRUs said:
Are you conflating e-pubbing with self pubbing? (for which there is a separate forum) Not all ebooks are self published.

I think you'll find that if you buy books from actual e-pubbers rather than self-pubbers, you'll find ~~a lot less~~ fewer grammar issues.

Fixed it for ya.

Mr Flibble · Mar 11, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
Fixed it for ya.

And this is why I need my editor.

She rinses me on grammar. In the nicest possible way. And this is also why you'll find epubbed books have fewer grammar issues than self-pubbed ones, same as with print publishers versus print self publishers. *

*This is not to say all self pubbed books have bad grammar. Just that you are less likely to have issues with the grammar if the book has been thoroughly edited.

FranYoakumVeal · Mar 11, 2011

scarletpeaches said:
If you have to self-publish your book, there's probably a very good reason for that.

You may be amazed to learn that there are many writers out there choosing to e-publish rather than go the traditional route. And quite a few frustrated mid-list authors are moving to self-pub their newer work (as well as back lists) in order to have more control of their work.

Amanda sells because her readers like her stories, and at 10,000 books a month, I doubt seriously if she is overly concerned about what other writers think of her grammar.

Not trying to be snarky here, but the success of any writer depends on his/her relationship with the readers.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

FranYoakumVeal said:
You may be amazed to learn that there are many writers out there choosing to e-publish rather than go the traditional route.

I thought my comment touched on self-publishing?

FranYoakumVeal said:
Amanda sells because her readers like her stories, and at 10,000 books a month, I doubt seriously if she is overly concerned about what other writers think of her grammar.

What a professional attitude that would be to have.

If an author isn't overly concerned about grammar, I'm not overly concerned about buying their books.

FranYoakumVeal said:
Not trying to be snarky here, but the success of any writer depends on his/her relationship with the readers.

Which I'd rather not have to pay for.

FranYoakumVeal · Mar 11, 2011

Scarlett, I meant no offense. I find myself editing books as I read, print or otherwise. I was just pointing out (not very well, obviously) that the average reader may care more about the story than the grammar.

Maybe I misread your comment, but I thought you were implying that authors choose self -publishing because their work wasn't otherwise publishable. I was just pointing out that may not always be the case.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

God damn it, I hate when people are polite when I get all pissy at them.

FranYoakumVeal · Mar 11, 2011

Woops! How about if I take it all back?

CheG · Mar 11, 2011

FranYoakumVeal said:
You may be amazed to learn that there are many writers out there choosing to e-publish rather than go the traditional route. And quite a few frustrated mid-list authors are moving to self-pub their newer work (as well as back lists) in order to have more control of their work.
.

This.

scarletpeaches said:
If you have to self-publish your book, there's probably a very good reason for that.

I don't think this is necessarily true.

A lot of good authors published and otherwise lack an outlet for their work. Publishers drop midlist authors, authors suck at writing queries. The editor leaves, an agent drops you. Agent/publisher doesn't like your knew idea for a book completely different than the series you're known for. A lot can happen.

And I find mistakes in Big 6 books all the time, spelling errors, repeat phrases and words. No one is immune and no one is perfect.

I am glad to see the rise of e-books because it means if I can't get an agent/publisher I can still publish, and more than that, the days of selling out of your trunk are gone. You can make a living at it. Cream will always rise. The e-books that are good get good reviews, the bad get reamed. Same with the books from big publishers.

I think there will be a rising demand for freelance editors to. So polish your skillz.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

CheG said:
I am glad to see the rise of e-books because it means if I can't get an agent/publisher I can still publish, and more than that, the days of selling out of your trunk are gone.

I'm going to assume I read you wrong and you're not saying epublishing is where people-who-couldn't-get-an-agent go.

For the record, I've only queried an agent once since I started writing erotica. They knocked me back on the basis of a partial and from then on, I thought, "Go with epubs to get your name out there, keep it current." Ever since I've kinda got caught up in editors asking for more books and I don't want to take a few months away from being 'in the loop' to write a book that will take a year or more to become available. Except, I kinda sorta have a vague half-chance of getting an agent's attention so I'm going to have to write my agent-bait novel...while still producing books for my epub editors.

CheG said:
Cream will always rise.

But didn't you just say, typo and all...?

CheG said:
A lot of good authors published and otherwise lack an outlet for their work. Publishers drop midlist authors, authors suck at writing queries. The editor leaves, an agent drops you. Agent/publisher doesn't like your knew idea for a book completely different than the series you're known for. A lot can happen.

CheG said:
So polish your skillz.

I'm doing all right, thanks. I'm one of those rare creatures who doesn't suck at writing queries.

izanobu · Mar 11, 2011

Hocking is selling 500,000 books a month lately, not 10,000

And yes, there were some errors in her books. So what? The later ones in the Tylle series got edited and were cleaner copy. They were still great reads (I couldn't put them down, and to sound totally emo here, I bought her books before she was selling hundreds of thousands of copies

)

Story is king. Bad grammar in service of story (especially in dialog) is sometimes necessary. Writing pretty sentences is something most writers will learn eventually, but writing a kick-ass story with characters that readers want to return to and read again and again? That's hard to teach. That is what takes years of practice and study. Also, trial and error. You can write the prettiest sentences in the world and have prose that flows like fine wine off the page and I *still* won't finish the book because I'm bored and/or don't care because the story isn't holding me (I've read books like this. Maybe someone else loved those books, but I was bored. Pretty writing, boring characters and plots. Not my cup of tea. I'm old enough now to recognize that my dislike of something doesn't automatically make it terrible

)

Frankly, while most of us writers are, I hope, voracious readers, we are *not* the typical audience and are likely to be far more critical of minor things like grammar.

scarletpeaches · Mar 11, 2011

izanobu said:
And yes, there were some errors in her books. So what?

We're constantly told to write to the best of our abilities, that's 'so what'. Maybe you don't see the problem with errors appearing in books. I do. Hell, I'm not saying I've ever turned in a perfect manuscript - I've spotted typos in my published copies before. But I can tell you this - the manuscripts I turn in are the best I can make them at the time, and one editor even told me my books were the cleanest she'd seen in all her years in the job.

izanobu said:
Story is king. Bad grammar in service of story (especially in dialog) is sometimes necessary.

I wasn't aware story and grammar were mutually exclusive.

Dicking around with it in dialogue, yes, but it better be as near as dammit to immaculate elsewhere, or I won't bother buying another one of your books. Godlike in its perfection? No. The best you can manage without a shoddy "Meh, so what?" attitude? Hell to the fuck no.

izanobu said:
You can write the prettiest sentences in the world and have prose that flows like fine wine off the page and I *still* won't finish the book because I'm bored and/or don't care because the story isn't holding me...

Again, I wasn't aware of any mutual exclusivity.

izanobu said:
Frankly, while most of us writers are, I hope, voracious readers, we are *not* the typical audience and are likely to be far more critical of minor things like grammar.

Good. I see nothing wrong with being more critical than the average reader. Now that you know better, do better.

izanobu · Mar 11, 2011

I didn't say they were exclusive. They aren't. You can have both.

I don't see how it is fair for anyone to assume that Hocking didn't write those books to the best of her ability. It seems like we're making a lot of assumptions about how she writes or not, that's all I'm saying. Her books are selling hundreds of thousands of copies for a reason. Clearly, lack of typos and perfect grammar aren't that reason. I just think there is more to learn by looking at well-selling books and figuring out what *works* about them then there is to learn by looking at them and criticizing something as easily fixed as grammar. Her grammar will improve (and has). Her story writing skills are clearly what are selling her books.

That's why I study best-selling writers. To see what they are doing well, because it is what they are doing well that is selling their books.

All my opinion, obviously. Just seems silly to criticize someone on grammar while seeming to ignore what *does* work.

I guess I'm not seeing the point of this thread, sorry. Nothing wrong with being critical, I guess. Just as long as it doesn't blind you from learning from the parts that do work. IMHO.

Nightmirror · Mar 11, 2011

izanobu said:
I guess I'm not seeing the point of this thread, sorry. Nothing wrong with being critical, I guess. Just as long as it doesn't blind you from learning from the parts that do work. IMHO.

I started this thread because I was curious to see what people thought about a bestselling novel having bad grammar and numerous editing mistakes. I appreciate everyone's thoughts; they've been quite helpful.

That being said, I considered myself to be a decent writer (far from good, though better than your average joe), as far as the actual prose is concerned. On the other hand, I think I'm much better at the actual storytelling. Consequently, I wanted to know if you guys would excuse a novel's poor grammar if the storyline was executed well and the characters were particularly likebale.

I know that a novel's story is ultimately what sells it, but, nonetheless, I'll always be a stickler for grammar when it comes to my writing. I want it to be best I can possibly make it. I was just curious if other people, like myself, had higher expectations for a bestselling book. I just assumed that a book with such a title would be better written, even if the storyline was brilliantly plotted.

Once again thanks for all your replies

Nightmirror · Mar 11, 2011

izanobu said:
(I couldn't put them down, and to sound totally emo here, I bought her books before she was selling hundreds of thousands of copies

This made me laugh

Nightmirror · Mar 11, 2011

Laugh in a good way, of course.

AmsterdamAssassin · Mar 12, 2011

Nightmirror said:
That makes sense. I guess I was just a little baffled how someone could make millions from a book that has so many editing problems and grammatical issues. When I read, it's mostly for the story, but I also like to learn as much as I can from the writer, too. Second to writing, reading is the most effective way for me to learn how to improve my writing. I guess when I read certain e-books, I'll just have to read it for the story rather than the educational process. Thanks for helping to answer my question.

You read a book like a writer, not like a reader. Similar to how a film student watches a movie, a music student attends a concert...

If I go to a jazz concert, I can spot where they make a mistake and how they catch it. I assume [because I can't know] that the majority of listeners wouldn't notice the mistake, especially if the musician is skilled enough to know how to catch the mistake and make the audience think it was part of the music all along.

Same with writing - the more you write, the easier you can distinguish between well-written prose and carefully crafted stories versus awkward prose and clunky story lines. However, it's doubtful the non-writing audience would notice the difference like you do.

Convenience vs. Quality

Not so happily ever after...

Got the hang of it, here

Not-so-new

ow

Not so happily ever after...

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Angel Wing Fetish

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Simple gal, complex mind

Simple gal, complex mind

Simple gal, complex mind

...

...

Not so happily ever after...

Not so happily ever after...

Not so happily ever after...