less vs. fewer: my grammar check and I don't agree!

momgotshocked

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For the life of me I can't figure out why this is wrong:

Fewer than a third of all married couples get divorced...

because, you can count the couples, right?

The MS word grammar check wants "less than". But, when I change it to "fewer than half of all married couples..." or "fewer than ten percent" the grammar check smiles and nods.

What the flegnog am I not understanding here?

Thanks!
 

Lil

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You are not understanding that the MS Word grammar check is not to be trusted. Since you know such things as the difference between less and fewer, I suggest that you turn it off.
 

momgotshocked

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I do kinda understand that. But still, usually the grammar check has SOME (if personal) reason for its decisions.

I mean, I might decide to write a fragment, and the grammar check spits out a green line that i ignore. But at least I know where it's coming from. This one eludes me.
 

Ari Meermans

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I don't have the chops to get all grammarly on you but here's the way it works out:

Use less than to refer "mass" numbers—less than half the population but greater than a third.

Use fewer than to refer to specific numbers or amounts—fewer than one hundred but more than eighty.
 

Sarah Madara

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Another vote to turn off the grammar check.

I imagine this is beyond MS word's ability to comprehend, because you can write "fewer than a third of all married couples" but it would have to be "less than a third of the pie." MS Word does not know which fractions are countable and which are not, so don't trust it.

Edited: Terie's post changed my mind. It has to be "less."
 
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Terie

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I agree with everyone else who says to turn the darn thing off.

However, the reason that it's telling you 'fewer' is wrong is because the noun is 'a third', which is not a countable quantity.

Now, you obviously know that you use 'fewer' for countable quantities and 'less' for uncountable quantities. Where your analysis is going wrong is that you're looking at the object of the preposition ('married couples' = countable), whereas the grammar checker is looking at the actual noun ('a third' = uncountable). As with subject-verb agreement, you have to look at the actual noun, not the object of the preposition.

Therefore, 'less' is correct if the context is fairly formal. If it's informal, I think you can get away with 'fewer', even though it technically wrong, just because that's how a lot of people in real life would say it.

So, as so often when it comes to grammar, context is king. :)
 

Sarah Madara

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However, the reason that it's telling you 'fewer' is wrong is because the noun is 'a third', which is not a countable quantity.

After a disturbing amount of Google procrastination, I'll have to agree with Terie on this.

If it's informal, I think you can get away with 'fewer', even though it technically wrong, just because that's how a lot of people in real life would say it.

So, as so often when it comes to grammar, context is king. :)

Interestingly, from Wikipedia's references on the topic, it looks as though less is the safest choice in general. Apparently the rule of using "fewer" instead of "less" for countable nouns is not hard and fast, and considered by some to be more of a stylistic choice. So less can mean fewer (although your English teacher might disagree), but fewer cannot mean less.
 

momgotshocked

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Yikes. Well, the statement comes out of my character's head as a thought, and though he's not a grammarian, he's supposed to be intelligent.

I thank you all for the input. I knew it had to be something. My grammar check is petty and annoying, but it's not arbitrary!
 

Jamesaritchie

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It's probably the word "a" that's throwing grammar check. "Fewer than half" is properly written. Some grammar check programs rightfully balk at placing "a" in front of a countable quantity. Try, Fewer than one third of all married couples get divorced.
 

Sarah Madara

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It's probably the word "a" that's throwing grammar check. "Fewer than half" is properly written. Some grammar check programs rightfully balk at placing "a" in front of a countable quantity. Try, Fewer than one third of all married couples get divorced.

But wouldn't fewer than one third be zero thirds?
 

momgotshocked

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Ah! yes!

funny that we can say "fewer than half" but we can't say "fewer than third", or tenth, or whatever.

Fewer than one third sounds kinda stilted for a thought. I think he's just going to muse: "fewer and fewer couples...blah blah blah. Because the end of the sentence actually is: have to be annulled nowadays. (because it's a nasty society where they do that sort of thing to you)

Thanks!
 

MissMacchiato

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I just want to say that flegnog is the most awesome non-swear word I've heard in a while.
 

momgotshocked

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Flegnog

My nephew and niece (11 and 8 respectively) use it. I thought so too, when I heard it. Someone should put it in a book!
 

Jamesaritchie

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But wouldn't fewer than one third be zero thirds?

No. But I was only commenting on why grammar check can screw up in both directions. There's no such thing as "a" third. You don't say, a third, two thirds, or a fifth, two fifths, three fifths, etc. It's one third, or one fifth.

We simply let the way we're used to speaking slip into our writing.
 

Sarah Madara

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Really? Because if fewer indicates a countable quantity, then you are counting thirds. And the only non-negative integer less than one is zero.

There's no such thing as "a" third. You don't say, a third, two thirds, or a fifth, two fifths, three fifths, etc. It's one third, or one fifth.
I've never heard this rule. Do you have a source? I'd be curious.

We simply let the way we're used to speaking slip into our writing.
Which might be exactly what we want in dialogue :)
 

Jamesaritchie

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Really? Because if fewer indicates a countable quantity, then you are counting thirds. And the only non-negative integer less than one is zero.


I've never heard this rule. Do you have a source? I'd be curious.


Which might be exactly what we want in dialogue :)

Well, I really wasn't arguing less versus fewer, but simply pointing out that grammar check needs you to be accurate before it can be accurate.

But thirds of what? If you take one third of all married couples away from one third of all married couples, you have zero. But if you just take one third away from one third, you still have two thirds of one third remaining.

One third must be one third of an actual number. To find one third, you first have to know how many married couples there are, and then how many get divorced, One then can you say one third get divorced. You can also then give anyone who asks the specific number that one third represents, or that fewer than one third represents.

And "a" third isn't a writing rule, or a grammar rule, it's math. One third is an actual, existing thing in math. A third isn't. Because of this, "a" third isn't programmed into grammar check.

It might well be what we want in dialogue. Using "a" is common, and I suspect most people do so in speech. But even dialogue comes down to how readers think about the character. When quoting some statistic, or anything like it, it might be best to use the proper terms, if you want the reader to believe the character knows what he's talking about.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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After reading some of this thread, I thought I'd give the grammar check a try.

It suggested I change this - statues were frequently used as a rallying point
to this - statues was frequently used as a rallying point.

It's not just wrong, it's downright malevolent.
 

Jamesaritchie

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After reading some of this thread, I thought I'd give the grammar check a try.

It suggested I change this - statues were frequently used as a rallying point
to this - statues was frequently used as a rallying point.

It's not just wrong, it's downright malevolent.

My grammar check doesn't do that, but it does say the first sentence is passive voice.
 

Sarah Madara

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It suggested I change this - statues were frequently used as a rallying point
to this - statues was frequently used as a rallying point.

It's not just wrong, it's downright malevolent.

Scrivener left it alone (pretty bare bones grammar check), but there is a method to the madness.

It should have changed it to: statues were frequently used as rallying points.

If the grammar check didn't know "statues" was plural, then the change it suggested makes sense.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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It is passive voice which is fine in the context. The grammar check thing should know that statues is plural though. I don't think Microsoft has an excuse for that one. It's pretty basic really.
 

RIFF

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gramer chekkre

It's right- fewer is wrong. You can't count a third.
Mind, that's based on newspaper/wire service grammar manuals, so there may be other versions of 'correct' out there.
 

Wayne K

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My grammar checker wanted me to change the dialogue at the end of a sex scene from, "This is all for you baby" to "This is all for your baby" which would be illegal. I turned it off and never turned it back on