Why Not Put Together a List?

[badducky]

Why not put together a list right here on the boards of legitimate publishers of fantasy and science-fiction that accept un-agented submissions?

That way we can combine our resources to maximize our submissions.

I know of Baen, Tor, Daw, and WotC. Is that it? Come on, someone's gotta know something I don't! I'm a frikkin' idiot!

[Pencilone]

Great idea BadDucky!:)

Here is a list of Publishers of SF and Fantasy (http://www.computercrowsnest.com/writerspells.htm)(look down the page for Book Publishers).

Best Wishes,

Pencilone

[victoriastrauss]

I've said this before and I'll say it again--it's a serious waste of time (in my opinion) to submit directly to any of the major SF/fantasy imprints, even those that say they will accept unagented submissions. Unagented submissions are given rock-bottom priority. Unless you're responding to a specific request from an editor, the person looking at your submission will probably be an intern or assistant, without the power to make any buying decisions. You could be the next Robin Hobb, and your chances of getting bought out of the slush pile would still be minimal. And the response times are loooooooooooong. Two years or even more isn't unheard of for Tor and Baen.

IMO, you're much better off spending your energy trying to find a good agent. If that doesn't pan out, you can fall back on direct publisher submissions--but it's not an efficient use of your time or resources to make this your first plan of attack.

- Victoria

[badducky]

No one is saying one shouldn't seek an agent first... or during...

But, finding an agent can be a daunting task since agents have just as many interns and assistants reading the letters.

I get my little rejection slips from agents, too. Somewhere between two-five a week. I'm going to pursue every avenue. I've got to pull this off before I'm old! How else can I win my Nobel before I'm too old to moon the Swedish from my limo!

[Pthom]

Yep.
It's a "catch-22" ... You can't attract a major publisher without an agent; you can't obtain an agent without being published first.
But a listing of periodicals who will take your stories unagented isn't a bad idea. You'll have much better success with attracting an agent if you have something in print. Even if those stories didn't earn more than a couple of copies of a small-run magazine.

[Vomaxx]

Unagented submissions are certainly not a first choice. If, however, the alternatives are (a) unagented submission or (b) burying the novel, I recommend (a) since you have nothing to lose. Of course, failure to get an agent after 100+ queries could be a sign that (b) is the more realistic choice, but, heck, (a) is worth a try.

[Pthom]

What about (c)? Becoming an editor.
:gone:

[victoriastrauss]

you can't obtain an agent without being published first.This is like that story about the guy who goes to Vegas and hooks up with a gorgeous babe and wakes up the next morning in the bathtub minus a kidney. It's an urban legend. (It's also one of the things that drives writers into the hands of scam and amateur agents.)

It isn't true that you can't get an agent without having published first. Really, really, it isn't. Honest. I swear. Cross my heart. Good agents take on non-published writers all the time. Most first novels sell via agents. I know many writers who got good agents without having previously published a word.

If you've written a marketable manuscript, no agent worth his or her salt will care that you haven't been published. In fact, as an unknown quantity, you're probably more attractive to agents and publishers than that midlist writer whose sales have been flat for the last two books.

- Victoria

[Euan H.]

I know many writers who got good agents without having previously published a word.
Frex, me.

[Although Victoria doesn't actually know me, as such. :-) ]

[Pthom]

It isn't true that you can't get an agent without having published first. Really, really, it isn't. Honest. I swear. Cross my heart. Good agents take on non-published writers all the time. Most first novels sell via agents. I know many writers who got good agents without having previously published a word. The problem with this forum thing is that there isn't a tongue-in-cheek emoticon. The statement in my post above is what's told to most budding writers. I know, because, as a budding writer myself, I've heard it over and over, mostly at writers' conferences, but I think a search of this place (AW) will turn up similar advice.

I have no doubt you are correct, Victoria. Yet, I'm sure that said budding writer has a much better chance at representation if she provides some examples of her work in print. It's the same with freelance illustrators; without tear sheets, getting your art in a major magazine (and don't even think about a book jacket) is akin to discovering a new planet without the benefit of a telescope.

[HConn]

If you want to make a useful list, make a list of agents, agencies and the writers they represent.

[badducky]

The reason I didn't suggest that is quite simple:

It would be huge. It would fluctuate as we discover more about each additional agent, either bad or good. It belongs in a website (like Preditors & Editors, for example) and not on a web post, in my opinion.

Publishing companies would be smaller, and more managable.

And, the legitimate ones would be easier to spot since the list is smaller.
As a small-busines owner, (who should totally be working right now!), I approach writing like I do my business. You tell me I could potentially succeed in three different ways, and I slam the caffiene and charge hard after all of them! It isn't a waste of time because it only has to work once. Limiting yourself to only agents or only publishing companies is the mistake to me. You're cutting out something that only has to work once!

[Myrddin]

I've been compiling a list of agents for a while now, and intend on sending queries starting at the beginning of the year. It's basically an Xcel spreadsheet with names, agencies, addresses, client list, and what they want by way of a proposal.

It's not hard to do, especially with all the resources on the Internet where you can cross reference every name you find with the lists of repretable agents.

Use Google to search for the agents that represent the writers who write like you do (or your favorite writers). Some are easy to find, some are harder. Some accept new writers, some don't. Then mine their websites for information you can use.

Call me selfish, but no, you can't have the list. Go make your own. ;) Well, you can't have it until I get an agent anyway...

[victoriastrauss]

Limiting yourself to only agents or only publishing companies is the mistake to me. You're cutting out something that only has to work once!If you submit to agents and publishers at the same time, you risk two things: closing off options that an agent could exploit better for you, and making yourself less attractive to an agent.

For instance, if you submit an unagented ms. to Tor, it won't get the kind of serious attention an agented submission would receive. At most, it'll get a look from an intern or assistant, or a glance from an editor at a slush session whose specific purpose is to reduce the size of the slush pile. That means that even if you're the next Robin Hobb, your chances of selling are significantly poorer than if your ms. came in with a good agent behind it.

Suppose Tor rejects you. You (or your agent, if you find one) then can't submit that manuscript there again. The number of major imprints that publish SF and fantasy is small--in effect, you've just closed off one-eighth of the total market for your work. This may very well cause an agent to feel you're less viable as a client than a writer with a manuscript that hasn't been rejected anywhere yet.

Submitting to agents and smaller publishers at the same time isn't usually a problem, because most agents turn to smaller publishers only as a secondary strategy if the big boys don't pan out. But submitting to agents and major publishers at the same time is stepping on your own toes. That's why I suggest that you look for an agent first, and turn to big publishing house submission only if the agent search isn't working out.

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

Yet, I'm sure that said budding writer has a much better chance at representation if she provides some examples of her work in print.Yes, definitely. Having a track record gives you a leg up, at least in terms of getting noticed in the slush pile. Even so, it's not a disadvantage not to have a track record, if you're looking to get your first novel agented and/or published.

- Victoria

[badducky]

Victoria, I don't mean to argue with you, because you are a published novelist, and my writing has only appeared in literary magazines.

The words I will select from your insightful posting are "That Manuscript".

If you only have one manuscript to submit, you're doing something wrong. How many completed manuscripts did you have before the first one was published, Victoria? How many completed manuscripts did you have before you got an agent?

As I said before, submissions to agents/publishers only has to work once. It's hard enough to get published without avoiding calculated risks. The last poem I published had no business in the magazine that published it, but for some reason they kept it in there... I guess they liked it?

Anyway, back on target:

Tor
Daw
Wizards of the Coast
Baen

Avon, Ace, and most others in that link above, upon investigation of their website, look quite closed to un-agented authors.

Anything else out there?

[victoriastrauss]

How many completed manuscripts did you have before the first one was published, Victoria? How many completed manuscripts did you have before you got an agent?Just one. I know that's unusual, though. And I did what I now recognize to be a bad and self-defeating thing: I put all my hopes in that single manuscript, and didn't start immediately writing another.

I don't mind if you argue with me! I'm voicing one opinion--albeit a strong one--and I'm sure there are many who'd disagree. I would love for you to prove me wrong.

However, if anyone decides to pay attention to my advice, don't do it because I've published a couple of books (plenty of published authors don't know diddly about the industry) but because--partly by inclination and partly because of my advocacy work--I pay very close attention to what's going on in publishing.

- Victoria

[veinglory]

Doesn't ralan.com already provide this list?

[Captain_Campion]

I think the obvious post at this point is as follows...

Hey, um, Victoria, howabout helping me get my manuscript in front of your agent? You know, bypass the slush pile and all. :)