Have marketing distinctions genderized literary fiction?

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Libbie

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I know a similar thread just got locked, possibly because of me (hopefully not), but I had a fascinating related conversation last night and it got me thinking...and I wanted to see what the rest of you thought.

I work at a book store, and last night was fortunate to be stuck on a project with one of my favorite co-workers, a very intelligent and thoughtful man with a degree in philosophy and a great love of literary fiction. While we worked, we discussed cover art/titles and marketing, and he mentioned that his background in philosophy has maybe made him too sensitive to stuff like this, but he was surprised by how easily he "succumbs to marketing," as he put it. He said that he realized earlier that day that he almost never reads literary fiction written by a woman, and he feels badly about this. He suspected it was because he was enticed more to buy "men's literary fiction" than "women's lit" based on covers and titles.

I literally slapped my head and told him that I'd just inadvertently gotten a thread locked on Absolute Write about this very subject.

I filled him in on the basics of the thread, my stance, and that of Toothpaste and some others. We tossed some ideas around for a while, and then it was like a magic lightning bolt hit me. Suddenly I understood why female authors are receiving less awards and reviews for literary fiction.

It's because they're not writing literary fiction anymore!

I mean, obviously they are still writing literary fiction. The writing hasn't changed. The themes and topics haven't changed. What's changed is how these books are sold.

Within the past twenty or thirty years, "Women's Fiction" as a genre has become a big force in the industry. A huge force. If I understand correctly, Women's Fiction (the genre) doesn't include romance and usually isn't thought to include "chick lit," which has a poppier/quirkier feel with spunkier characters in comparatively light-hearted plots. Women's Fiction is the darker stuff, but with mostly female characters, dealing with issues of family, grief, love, abuse, struggle for self-identity, etc. In other words, the same stuff you'd expect in the genre of literary fiction. But with GIRLS. Most of Joyce Carol Oates's books would probably be called Women's Fiction today. Margaret Atwood? Jeanette Winterson? Toni Morrison? Dorothy Allison?

So maybe this perceived bias toward men has more to do with the advent of the Women's Fiction label, and the fact that publishers are now marketing a whole lot of books that would once be Literary Fiction as Women's Fiction. Perhaps reviewers haven't yet caught on and are still reviewing away dutifully without having figured out where all the ladies went.

If I'm right, my hope is that Women's Fiction and Literary Fiction will soon be reviewed and awarded together to get things on an even keel. I can understand the benefit of separating out a whole segment of the genre for better marketing -- Women's Fiction sells well, and that's one kind of boon to those authors. But if you guys are right and a schism has formed in the world of reviews and other forms of quality recognition, then that's not a good thing.

So...what do you think? My co-worker thought it could well be possible, that the genre that was once just Literary Fiction might have fractured into Women's Fiction and Men's Fiction, but we don't call Men's Fiction by that name...we're still just calling it Literary Fiction.

Any thoughts? (And sorry this was such a long post. You get a cookie if you read all the way through it.)
 

Phaeal

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Gib cookie!

I dislike the label "Women's Fiction." To me, it's self-and-industry-imposed-ghettoization, demeaning to both genders. I'd label everything not identifiable as genre as either literary or mainstream. Or literary/mainstream, because the difference is largely subjective.

But then, I have issues with age-related labels, too. Ultimately, I'd like to see all books filed by cover color. Except we all know that men's fic has black and red covers and women's fic pastel colors. Ack! Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Okay, we'll alphabetize by author. No, wait, we have enough "A" pen names already...

Argh.
 
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gothicangel

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I do admit to avoiding shelves that are designated 'women's fiction' or 'romance.' Pastel colours on the cover have the same effect on me, no matter what the genre. If it's dark, or has 'dirty realism' style photographs then I would have a read of the jacket.
 

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Neither "Women's Fiction" nor "Literary fiction" are genres.

They are marketing categories.

And yes, it is a deliberate decision that's made twice; once at the marketing discussions at the publishers, and then, again, by the distributors and the book buyers at the chains.

You might pay attention as well to the differences in books sold in the UK and sold in the US--by which I mean the labeling and presentation of the same book.

You'll notice cover art changes, and differences in metadata.

You can get a good idea by looking at the same book at Amazon UK and Amazon US.

What's going to be fun to watch is how books from major, established publishers are being marketed and purchased as ebooks.

I'm seeing print books and ebook versions of the same book with different metadata.

Audrey Niffenegger The Time Traveler's Wife has a number of different covers with different metadata--that is, one cover is used and shelved as SF, and another as "Fiction," "Literary Fiction," etc.
 
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Libbie

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This whole subject is just ridiculously fascinating to me. Marketing, that is. Everything that goes into marketing a book -- cover, title, blurbs, reviews, shelving...everything. I'm so into it that I've decided to pick it apart and analyze it as a regular feature on my blog, except that every time I think I'm ready to start that project I think up another dimension to it that changes the way I want to approach it.
 

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This whole subject is just ridiculously fascinating to me. Marketing, that is. Everything that goes into marketing a book -- cover, title, blurbs, reviews, shelving...everything. I'm so into it that I've decided to pick it apart and analyze it as a regular feature on my blog, except that every time I think I'm ready to start that project I think up another dimension to it that changes the way I want to approach it.

Go to your local bookstore, and ask if you can take the buyer or the manager out to lunch and ask them about their work.

It's fascinating.
 

Libbie

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I work at my local book store, and get to talk to the managers and whatnot every day! :D And we do discuss this stuff all the time. It seems the more I learn about it, the stranger and more amazing it becomes. It's like falling through the looking-glass.

It really is fun to get paid to dish about the publishing industry every day (along with my usual duties, of course. I just had to count every mass-market paperback in the store yesterday, UUUGH.) I think it may be turning me into an obsessive, though.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Literary fiction is a genre. There was no distinction between literary and commercial, genre fiction until the late 1940s. None at all. And, thank God, we're going back to those times.

The simple truth is that what happened to so-called "literary" fiction in the forties is what nealry killed it with ordinary readers. It's a false distinction, and one that meant nothing more and nothing less than "if ordinary readers like it, it's bad. If snooty college professors and critics say it's good, then it's good. . .but only if the masses won't read it."
 

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I could see it. I don't know a thing about marketing in the publishing industry, but we humans do like to put things in neat little boxes. You can still spot birth control and most feminine hygeine ads from a mile away, usually from the insidious giggling going on ;)

I think there may be a bit of chicken or egg going on, though. As Toothpaste pointed out so well in the other thread, some folks see women's issues as 'innately' not compelling like The Hero's Journey or the Oedopus complex, etc. Uh-huh. So do they put the Elecktra complex wrapped in pink to support a feeling that's alive and well in society before all the pink? Probably, imho.

It certainly doesn't help, regardless.
 

Libbie

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Literary fiction is a genre. There was no distinction between literary and commercial, genre fiction until the late 1940s. None at all. And, thank God, we're going back to those times.

The simple truth is that what happened to so-called "literary" fiction in the forties is what nealry killed it with ordinary readers. It's a false distinction, and one that meant nothing more and nothing less than "if ordinary readers like it, it's bad. If snooty college professors and critics say it's good, then it's good. . .but only if the masses won't read it."

So how do we classify me, then? I prefer the books that are sold as "literary fiction" to most other fiction I read, but I technically didn't graduate from high school and I am certainly not a critic. Am I an "ordinary reader?" I do not have the snootifying benefit of a college education so heavens knows what may have swayed me toward a certain type of writing. Personal preference certainly cannot have anything to do with it.

I really don't want this thread to turn into YET ANOTHER "literary" versus "genre" debate. For corn's sake, we have a bevy of those already, and I think they do their jobs admirably. I just wanted to point out that there are certain flaws with your assertion, Mr. Ritchie.
 
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Libbie

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I could see it. I don't know a thing about marketing in the publishing industry, but we humans do like to put things in neat little boxes. You can still spot birth control and most feminine hygeine ads from a mile away, usually from the insidious giggling going on ;)

I think there may be a bit of chicken or egg going on, though. As Toothpaste pointed out so well in the other thread, some folks see women's issues as 'innately' not compelling like The Hero's Journey or the Oedopus complex, etc. Uh-huh. So do they put the Elecktra complex wrapped in pink to support a feeling that's alive and well in society before all the pink? Probably, imho.

It certainly doesn't help, regardless.

Right. My point, though, was this: is it possible that there is no conscious effort to brush off women's stories (I still assert that the concept of "women's stories" versus "men's stories" is not a real thing to many readers -- I will read anything with any kind of characters in it, as long as the craft is good), but rather since the marketing category of Women's Fiction came along, many of the big reviewing outfits are just saying, "Well, let's leave this genre to be reviewed by the people who are best known for reviewing that genre," in the same way that sci-fi reviews/awards are left to particular groups who are best known for choosing quality sci-fi?

Maybe nobody has really noticed yet that what we now sell as Women's Fiction used to be under a larger umbrella, and that by leaving somebody else to do the work, they're actually missing a big chunk of what they're supposed to be seeing.
 

Deleted member 42

I work at my local book store, and get to talk to the managers and whatnot every day! :D And we do discuss this stuff all the time. It seems the more I learn about it, the stranger and more amazing it becomes. It's like falling through the looking-glass..

See if you can get permission to sit in on a sales conference, or go to one of the invitation only sales events by the really large publishers.

Try the same thing with a chain. I used to have good luck doing this with Waterstones, but they're not the same at all as they were way back in the 1980s, when I started getting curious about the behind-the-shelves sales stuff.

The marketing materials sent by publishers are fascinating. And for publishers that sell on both sides of the Atlantic, the cultural issues that they cope with in terms of marketing are really amazing--it's much more than spelling and punctuation.
 

gothicangel

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It's a false distinction, and one that meant nothing more and nothing less than "if ordinary readers like it, it's bad. If snooty college professors and critics say it's good, then it's good. . .but only if the masses won't read it."

Yet another sweeping statement. How would you explain James Robertson's Testament of Gideon Mack? Loved by the critics, shortlisted for the Booker Prize. Also one of the 'Richard and Judy Bookclub' picks and an international bestseller.

What about Zadie Smith or Monica Ali?
 

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Right. My point, though, was this: is it possible that there is no conscious effort to brush off women's stories (I still assert that the concept of "women's stories" versus "men's stories" is not a real thing to many readers -- I will read anything with any kind of characters in it, as long as the craft is good), but rather since the marketing category of Women's Fiction came along, many of the big reviewing outfits are just saying, "Well, let's leave this genre to be reviewed by the people who are best known for reviewing that genre," in the same way that sci-fi reviews/awards are left to particular groups who are best known for choosing quality sci-fi?

Maybe nobody has really noticed yet that what we now sell as Women's Fiction used to be under a larger umbrella, and that by leaving somebody else to do the work, they're actually missing a big chunk of what they're supposed to be seeing.

It's possible, after the new genre came along, I think. People might not think they are familiar with the genre, when really it might be the same stuff they like reviewing anyway, just with female MCs and situations.
 

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I still assert that the concept of "women's stories" versus "men's stories" is not a real thing to many readers

You assert that because you are a woman. Lots of men shy away from books with women as the MC or written by women.
 

LaceWing

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Wouldn't posit be more accurate than assert? First you posit, then you gather evidence, then you assert. Right?

Getting at the marketing research that publishers have might be tricky. Maybe Pew Research has something freely available.
 

Libbie

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You assert that because you are a woman. Lots of men shy away from books with women as the MC or written by women.

That's true, but lots of women shy away from books with men as the MC or written by men.

And lots of men happily read books with women as the MC or written by women, and vice-versa with female readers for male characters and male authors.

There will always be readers who don't want to cross their boundaries, whether they're genre boundaries or gender boundaries or whatever. And there will always be readers for whom those boundaries just don't matter.
 

Libbie

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I'm especially not worried since the next novel will have a male POV character. The guys who are scared off by my LADY NAME will just have to get over it, or NO KNIFE-FIGHTING TRAIN HOBOS FOR THEM. Women readers will have my hobos all to themselves!

[Assuming that book gets a) written b) finished and c) sold.]

(Thanks, Lori.)
 

Priene

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There's certainly a problem with male Lit Fic readers not reading as many women authors as they might, and I suspect the root of the problem is marketing, rather than subject matter or the author's or MC's sex. This was brought home to me when watching the BBC series on 20th century English writers. One of the authors mentioned was Angela Carter, whose name I'd vaguely heard of but whom I'd never read. She turned out both to be brilliant and to have horrible covers which were obviously designed to appeal solely to women readers. Many men, including me as it turned out, would be at least slightly embarrassed to buy or take out her books in that form. I must have passed over her work hundreds of times in bookshops and libraries and never once thought to look inside.
 
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gothicangel

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One of the authors mentioned was Angela Carter, whose name I'd vaguely heard of but whom I'd never read. She turned out both to be brilliant and to have horrible covers which were obviously designed to appeal solely to women readers. Many men, including me as it turned out, would be at least slightly embarrassed to buy or take out her books in that form. I must have passed over her work hundreds of times in bookshops and libraries and never once thought to look inside.

That's true, one of her short story collections has a garish, bright pink jacket. I was lucky enough to discover Angela Carter's brillance as she was on my undergrad reading list. :)
 
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