Ignorance of Grammar

Lillie · Jan 24, 2011

I have recently come to understand that although I must use grammar every day I do not actually understand it. It seems that I was never taught it. I recall being told the following useful bits of information; a capital letter goes at the beginning of a sentence, a full stop at the end, a verb is a doing word and a noun is a naming word. After that we were left to our own devices and were, perhaps, expected to pick the rest up by osmosis.

I would like to understand grammar and as I believe that I can learn anything I put my mind too (except music) I have downloaded 'Elements of Style'. However, on beginning to read through it I found that it talked about things I did not know or understand. Subjects, participles, things like that. So, I went to this site http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/arts/writcent/hypergrammar/subjpred.html and have begun to work my way through that first.

What I would like to ask those that understand these things is whether I am going about this in the right way. Whether the resources I have found are suitable for the task I have set myself, or whether I should be going about things differently.

Also I would like to ask if anyone can direct me to other learning tools on the internet. I understand there are grammar books available in online book shops but I am currently unable to buy online. However if any books are considered vital I will see if the library or the local book shops can help me.

Thanks in advance for any help

Deleted member 42 · Jan 24, 2011

I think that's a fine to to work your way through. The Purdue OWL lab is also quite good.

You might look at a used book store for one of the "handbooks" of grammar and usage used to teach freshman comp college students. They're pricey new, but there are thousands out there in used condition, and they don't really change very much.

The Little Brown Handbook
The Bedford Handbook
The Writer's Reference

There are lots. About fifteen new ones are printed a year. Just look and find one that works for you. The information is pretty much the same, just the presentation differs.

The other thing I'd suggest it so keep reading voraciously, read everything. Good stuff, bad stuff, brilliant stuff--everything.

Susan Coffin · Jan 24, 2011

Lisa, excellent resource!

CheyElizabeth · Jan 24, 2011

It's cheesy, but I love the Grammar Girl podcasts. They are quick and easy and I listen to them when I'd otherwise be staring off into space at work. I've learned a lot and had refreshers on things I'd forgotten.

Lillie · Jan 24, 2011

Thank you.

I have bookmarked the OWL site.

Are the books you mention US textbooks? I may be able to find them here, or possibly a UK equivalent.
They might have started teaching grammar here again, in which case there ought to be textbooks. But in the 70s and 80s when I was at school it was not the educational fashion to teach it.

I will keep reading anything that crosses my path.

Thanks again.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 24, 2011

If you downloaded Elements of Style, you probably downloaded the wrong book. Be sure you have Strunk & White's version, and not just Strunk's. They aren't at all the same, and it's White who made the book one that works for writers.

Mr Flibble · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
Thank you.

I have bookmarked the OWL site.

Are the books you mention US textbooks? I may be able to find them here, or possibly a UK equivalent.

I'm in the UK too. I suffered form the same lack of grammar education also. I have found Grammar for Dummies (UK edition) extremely helpful. You can pick it up at Waterstone's. My local branch has several books on grammar, so you'll be spoilt for choice

They might have started teaching grammar here again, in which case there ought to be textbooks. But in the 70s and 80s when I was at school it was not the educational fashion to teach it.

I hear you - and yes they have started teaching it again. My kids know more about grammar than I do, which is embarrassing....but as you say, means there are grammar books around.

Becky Black · Jan 25, 2011

I second IdiotRUs's recommendation of the English Grammar for Dummies (UK edition) book. I'm in the same position as you. I wasn't taught much formal grammar at school, I just sort of absorbed it from reading.

What I did with that book was read a chapter a day, making notes and taking any quizzes in the book. Treating it as a daily grammar lesson essentially. It was very useful. I keep it handy for reference too.

Kitty27 · Jan 25, 2011

Love these references. I struggle with grammar and need all the help I can get.

VoireyLinger · Jan 25, 2011

If you happen to stumble upon a language arts book, elementary level from earlier than the mid 1970s, grab it. These books teach base pasts of speech in a fairly simple way. They can be much easier to understand that texts intended for adults who have some background in the subject. I don't think it replaces the texts mentioned above, but it can be a good starting point and make them easier to understand.

Lillie · Jan 25, 2011

Grammar for Dummies! I never thought of looking for books like that

I thought I was looking for grim old text books from years ago. Thank you!

I have checked my elements of style. It's the wrong one. Thanks for the information. I will look for the correct version.

So they are teaching it again! What were we? The experimental generation? And when we all grew up semi literate they decided it was a bad idea???
I feel slightly cheated.

Usually I do believe I know when a sentence is right and when its wrong. It's just that I don't know why, and because of that I can never be sure.

Once again, thank you all for your help.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 25, 2011

Except for a very few bad schools here and there, schools have always taught grammar. Most kids just weren't interested.

Lillie · Jan 25, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Except for a very few bad schools here and there, schools have always taught grammar. Most kids just weren't interested.

Hi James.

Are you speaking from a US or UK perspective? Because in the UK most schools that were part of the state funded education system had ceased to teach formal grammar by the 1970s. It was assumed to have a stifling effect on a child's creativity.

The school I attended was no worse than 'mediocre', and it was probably a fair representation of most secondary schools at that time.

Instead, from my experience and from that of others of my age group, we were taught it piecemeal. If we got a sentence wrong it was corrected, often without any explanation of why it was wrong, and certainly without reference to any complete and overarching system of grammatical construction. Indeed the nearest I got to learning grammar was in French, and there I failed spectacularly as I had no English context for the rules I was expected to learn.

A few schools may have continued to teach it, certainly the 'posh' schools, the fee paying schools outside the state education system, would have been free to do their own thing, so perhaps they continued with formal grammar.

I would have been interested, by the way. I have the sort of mind that likes logical systems. Like maths. It's either right or wrong and you know where you are with it. I like that.

Of course I had to check this, just to be sure. This http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/kal/top.htm is part of a rather large site by a linguistics professor discussing the current state of grammar teaching in schools and the various government strategies to promote literacy in schools.
On the history page it confirms that the teaching of formal grammar was largely abandoned during the time I am speaking of.
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/kal/history.htm

Rachel Udin · Jan 25, 2011

Try also Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Tress

I should note that there are *style* books and then there are *grammar* books. Style books are where grammar can be done in a variety of ways and this is a suggested way by the authors. *Grammar* books are the unbreakable rules of grammar.

For example, the Chicago Manual of Style, is more of a style book.

The above is more a grammar book. Just thought you should know. (It also covers between UK and US grammar).

Deleted member 42 · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
Are the books you mention US textbooks? I may be able to find them here, or possibly a UK equivalent.
They might have started teaching grammar here again, in which case there ought to be textbooks. But in the 70s and 80s when I was at school it was not the educational fashion to teach it.

They are but there are U.K. equivalents.

There's a good short overview called the Cambridge Review of English Grammar that students use for A levels.

Dawnstorm · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
I have checked my elements of style. It's the wrong one. Thanks for the information. I will look for the correct version.

A word of warning, though. You won't learn grammar from Elements of Style. It's a book on stlye and assumes you already know grammar. The S&W version helps you a bit by including a glossary, but it's still a good idea to know your way around grammar before you read this one. Otherwise you risk confusion or, worse, misunderstandings.

***

Edit: Oh, and if you're using more than one source (which is a good idea), be prepared to encounter different terminologies. For example, from your link above:

Frances Peck said:
Be careful with sentences that begin with "there" plus a form of the verb "to be." In such sentences, "there" is not the subject; it merely signals that the true subject will soon follow.

You may find grammars who'll distinguish between two types of subjects, instead of saying that "there" is not a subject. The terms for the two types of subjects vary. [One example I've come across is "anticipatory subject" (there) and "notional subject" (three kittens). Another pair: "syntactic subject" (there) vs. "semantic subject" (three kittens).]

The important thing to learn is not what people call the parts (though you need to know that for good communication), but what's important about the distinction the grammar makes. For example, one of the important things the above author means to convey by saying that "there" is not the real subject is that the verb agrees in number with the "true subject": "There are three kittens." not "There is three kittens." (Although in informal speech you will hear, "There's three kittens.")

VoireyLinger · Jan 25, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Except for a very few bad schools here and there, schools have always taught grammar. Most kids just weren't interested.

As someone with three kids in school I beg to differ. There is a certain level of grammar being taught, but it far less than what I learned in school. Their classes put more value on writing in general, and they are often graded on content while technical aspects are ignored.

I make them fix it at home.

muse · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
I recall being told the following useful bits of information; a capital letter goes at the beginning of a sentence, a full stop at the end, a verb is a doing word and a noun is a naming word. After that we were left to our own devices and were, perhaps, expected to pick the rest up by osmosis.

It sounds like we went to the same school, Lillie.

blacbird · Jan 25, 2011

Medievalist said:
I think that's a fine to to work your way through. The Purdue OWL lab is also quite good.

Ditto on the Purdue OWL lab. I use it regularly in my comp classes. I've also met and talked with one of the major people involved in it, an English prof at Purdue. Very fine web site.

defyalllogic · Jan 25, 2011

on of my favorite resources for learning and checking my self.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quiz_list.htm

I love that there's an explanation!

Lillie · Jan 25, 2011

Thank you all for such wonderful resources and advice. I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me.
It's a matter of confidence really. At present I am not confident about my writing because I'm not entirely sure that what I have written is correct. I'm hoping that learning grammar, knowing when something is wrong and why, will improve this and when I write something that is incorrect it will be because I am choosing to and not because I don't know any better.

Dawnstorm said:
You may find grammars who'll distinguish between two types of subjects, instead of saying that "there" is not a subject. The terms for the two types of subjects vary. [One example I've come across is "anticipatory subject" (there) and "notional subject" (three kittens). Another pair: "syntactic subject" (there) vs. "semantic subject" (three kittens).]

I'm going to use this paragraph as a benchmark. When I completely understand it I will know I have learned something

Deleted member 42 · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
Thank you all for such wonderful resources and advice. I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me.
It's a matter of confidence really. At present I am not confident about my writing because I'm not entirely sure that what I have written is correct.

Really, you are worrying too much.

I'd suggest looking at the books and sites suggested here, but I'd also suggest as a native speaker, you might in fact benefit even more by reading a lot in general.

English is a lovely flexible and complex language, syntactically and grammatically.

Generally speaking, a lot of what people think about English grammar -- and are more than happy to assert and use as a metaphorical club -- is not in fact true, or even a grammatical issue.

maestrowork · Jan 25, 2011

I think native speakers should go to some ESL classes. They teach GREAT grammar.

Dawnstorm · Jan 25, 2011

Lillie said:
I'm going to use this paragraph as a benchmark. When I completely understand it I will know I have learned something

Lol. Sorry about that. The gist of it is: if two sources seem to contradict each other, they may just be using the same terms differently. That's something to keep in mind.

It's a matter of confidence really. At present I am not confident about my writing because I'm not entirely sure that what I have written is correct. I'm hoping that learning grammar, knowing when something is wrong and why, will improve this and when I write something that is incorrect it will be because I am choosing to and not because I don't know any better.

What Medievalist said. Ignorance of grammatical terms =/= ignorance of grammar. I do think schools should teach grammar, but less as rules of correctness than as a language awareness tool.

pdr · Jan 26, 2011

What...

I recommend to those in the UK who missed out on formal grammar is to go to the Cambridge Uni Press ESL website. They do an excellent range of grammar books which explain clearly and simply.

Ignorance of Grammar

practical experience, FTW

Deleted member 42

Tell it like it Is

My horn can pierce the sky!

practical experience, FTW

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Writing my way off the B Ark

So Goth That I Was Born Black

Angel Wing Fetish

practical experience, FTW

practical experience, FTW

Deleted member 42

punny user title, here

Angel Wing Fetish

standing on head, typing one-handed...

i'm a girl. (i have tendonitis)

practical experience, FTW

Deleted member 42

Fear the Death Ray

punny user title, here