Movie Spin off...Rights?? [copyright infringement, fanfiction]

Ummm the words 'copyright infringement' do spring to mind.

You should probably move this question to a more general area. AW Roundtable, or Novels. You will get more answers and feedback there.

But in general, you can't avoid copyright problems. Best to write your own characters and your own story. Unless you can get permission from the owners of whatever trilogy you are interesting in writing about (highly doubtful), you can't legally do what you propose to do. (Not unless its fanfiction on the web, which is a whole other ball game.)

There have been lawsuits over this very issue. Highly publicized ones, in fact. Others who have tried to do what you want to do have not succeeded.

I own two series with several characters in each. I would not be happy to see an 'outsider' usurp my characters for their own story.

Yeah, movie studios tend to not have a sense of humor about people doing derivative works of their valuable intellectual property.

Not to be cold and heartless, but no producer in his right mind, or his wrong mind for that matter, would touch your project with someone else's ten foot pole. This is because they know they would get a none-too-friendly cease and desist letter from the studio.

I know this because I have issued such letters in my former life. Some of these poor folks would call and beg me to grant them the rights because it was just such a special project, and they were just such wonderful people...

And what do you think I said? "Well, since you put it that way, I'd love to get fired for issuing you a license for being such a wonderful chap." ?

country boy said:

What would I have to do in order to make this happen?

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You would have to get permission from whoever owns the copyright to the intellectual property in question.

Your odds of doing so on your own are slim to none.

What you are writing is fanfiction. It's not likely to be worth trying to secure rights to publish for profit. If you still want to write it, that's fine--you can release it for free online and let other fans of the IP enjoy it gratis. But your chances of publishing it legitimately are virtually nil.

country boy said:

I have a major question concerning spin off rights....what are they? I am writing a series- not sure whether it's a tv series or a book series- of one of my favorite movie trilogies. It will not have the main character, but will have at least two supporting characters as main characters and will borrow many aspects of the movie or else it wouldn't work. What would I have to do in order to make this happen? And if the characters were based on other works...would I just contact someone in the company?

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I'm afraid, gentle as we'd like to be about this, what everyone is telling you is on the mark.

In any copyrighted work - which is what you are talking about, not only the main characters, but all the supporting characters and the "world" of the story is all under copyright. All of it is owned by the copyright holder which, if it's a movie trilogy -- say the Matrix Trilogy, would be owned in total, by the studio that produced it.

They own the rights to make additional sequels, TV series, novels, comic books, stage plays, theatrical productions, ballets -- anything and everything in any medium currently in existence or yet to be invented.

Everything. They. Own. It. All.

I'm not joking about "yet to be invented" language. Every contract I've signed for the sale of a script has that language in it. When it comes to rights, they aren't kidding about them -- because fundamentally, that's all that a studio owns -- they own "rights" to things.

That's the only way they make money -- because they have the *copy* rights -- the right to make and sell copies of movies and shows and music and the images contained in them.

And that is why they are not going to *give* any of those rights away to you. Nor, for that matter, are they going to sell them to you -- because they can make enormously more by *keeping* those rights than they can ever make by selling them.

If they wanted to make a Matrix TV series (for instance) -- who would be better fixed to do it -- them or you?

Or a series based on any big Hollywood Trilogy? If they wanted to release a novel based on subsidiary characters based on one of their big trilogies -- they'd do what they always do with novelizations -- pay a fixed fee to someone to write it (what's called "work for hire") after which *they* continue to own the underlying rights.

Makes a lot more sense than selling the rights, or giving them to someone who's ability to right is unknown and who might come out with something of uncertain quality which might undermine the value of the brand (not saying that your writing necessarily would -- but that's how they would look at it).

So, hard as this is to accept -- we've all, as beginning writers, been down this block. We fall in love with some pre-existing material, some pre-existing world. With Star Wars, with Star Trek, with Indiana Jones -- or whatever.

We want to be part of it and to visit it ourselves with our own writing.

It's one thing to do that privately, as a writing exercise. Fine. No harm, no foul.

But it simply can never go farther than that. And to try to pursue it, I'm afraid, is an exercise of a different kind - it's an exercise in futility.

Sometimes, those kinds of exercises act as a different kind of learning experience and maybe a necessary kind for some people.

If the question is -- who do you call or who do you ask about acquiring the rights -- I've been a professional screenwriter for twenty years and I have an agent at a major agency and I couldn't even begin to answer such a question.

Who would I have my agent call and ask to acquire the rights to do a TV show or a novel based, say, on characters from Jurassic Park?

The answer my agent would give me -- after a long pause -- would be -- nobody.

If I wanted to call and pitch them a TV series, I suppose I might *possibly* be able to (although even that would be a monumental long shot) -- but that's only because I've been working in the business for close to twenty years.

You haven't. And you can't.

And I hope you don't take this post as altogether too harsh, but that's just the way it is.

So, write for your own pleasure and writing experience if you want -- but don't go beyond that.

NMS

If you work on the project privately for a bit you might be surprised how well you can adapt it by 'filing off the serial numbers' - basically adapt it until it is no longer recognisable.

Try it - as a writing exercise you might find the aspect that you like the most can be removed from the other world more than you can imagine.

For example, 'Final Destination' was originally written as a spec X-files episode. But the writer decided that they could rewrite it, merge some characters, tweak a few things and suddenly Mulder & Scully are totally unrecognisable.

That's now spun off 3 movies .. so it can be successfully done.

To use the 'Matrix' example - living in a virtual world and being involved a massive conflict is such a trope now you certainly do it very differently without fear.

So while you THINK that your story can't possibly be done without using those exact characters you might be more skilled than you think!

(Some attempts have been pretty ham fisted, though. Since Fox had the TV rights to 'X-men', Tribune made a TV series called 'Mutant X' set in a world that looked suspiciously identical !! They spent millions in litigation over it and had to keep changing their stories to keep them different - often quite late which just pushed up costs further.)

Mac

Unless you can get permission from the owners of whatever trilogy you are interesting in writing about (highly doubtful), you can't legally do what you propose to do. (Not unless its fanfiction on the web, which is a whole other ball game.)

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Just wanted to say that fan fic on the Web is copyright infringement and still illegal. It is tolerated in some/most cases, but it is still copyright infringement.

isn't fanfic kinda covered by the "parody" get-out thing, and that no one's making profit off it? unless it's grossly pornographic or otherwise damaging to a property, i didn't think it would be actionable?

isn't fanfic kinda covered by the "parody" get-out thing, and that no one's making profit off it? unless it's grossly pornographic or otherwise damaging to a property, i didn't think it would be actionable?

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No - it doesn't work like that.

An author or publisher can choose to accept it - but that doesn't mean that they are obliged to.

That's for a few reasons:

(1) The 'Parody' protection in copyright law is very specific - the word in copyright law doesn't actually match the normal use of the word.

To meet it you need to be commenting on the original work. So if I make a derivative work of Harry Potter as a parody that shows how Harry Potter typifies the concept of entitlement in our modern society I *MIGHT* get away with it.

However if I do it to demonstrate a much better ending to the Harry / Hermoine subplot ... then that isn't parody .. no matter how badly it is written.

Not only that - but fundamentally a parody has to be transformative. So if you transform an action film into a political satire you MIGHT get away with calling it a parody. However if you transform a schoolyard drama about wizards into ... a schoolyard drama about wizards then it clearly isn't transformative.

Craig Mazin (who makes a living writing parodies of copyrighted works) points out that for this reason it is almost impossible to make a parody of a comedy in the same medium ... because it fundamentally lacks the transformation requirement.

(2) Not only that - even parody can still cost. For example in "The Wind is Gone" case, the copyright owner of 'Gone with the Wind' lost the ability to stop the parody. However, the court recognized that they had 'suffered a harm' that could be 'remedied through an award of monetary damages' ... so if the publisher wanted to distribute the book they had to pay compensation.

(3) What does 'otherwise damaging to a property' mean?

If there is someone who is wanting to read the next Harry Potter book ... but instead they read a fan-fic work .. that's a loss of a reader.

Everyone had only so much time in their lives. If a potential customer spends their time on 'Product A' instead of 'Product B' than that's a loss for 'Product B'.

It doesn't matter if the fan-fic is bad or not. In fact - you could argue that a fan-fic piece that was so brilliant that it made the official ones look amateur would do more damage than the worst slash fan-fic.

Mac

What about places like Fanfiction.Net and all of the fandom communities on other sites that exist solely for the purpose of fanfiction? I thought it all fell under the Creative Commons license- in most cases, people are just engaging with the material and consuming it in a new way, not trying to superimpose their views upon the creators or make money.

MAKING MONEY is not a defense to copyright infringement.

PERIOD.

Please lay this to rest. One need not make money in order in 'infringe' or be actionable. Being a NON PROFIT does not save one from infringement claims. The fact that a piece of work is done 'for pleasure' or 'to help suffering kids' -is not a defense.

FanFiction is a bit like speeding. It's illegal. Everyone does it. Sooner or later, someone gets caught and 'made an example of' so everyone else slows down. Enforcement of the speeding laws will vary from location to location and how much money and resources each minicipality has or needs.

Some people litigate immediately and harshly. Some will turn a blind eye, hoping it helps to build the fan base - an unpaid marketing arm if you will. But don't for a moment think it's 'legal'.

Anymore than rolling a stoplight in the middle of a deserted highway at midnight.

What WriteKnight said.

Note that FanFiction.net has a very clear list on the home page of people who have said they do not want fan fiction posted about their property. FanFiction.net follows that and will not post those stories because they do not want to bring down the ire of the law on them and get the whole site shut down.

I love fan fiction. Love it. I have occasionally written some. (And I occasionally speed too!) But never am I under the illusion that it is legal. It is not. It is clear copyright infringement, no grey area at all.

And, of course, Fanfiction.net has ads all over it. That generates money for somebody. But as has been said, money isn't important. It reminds me of the countless tens of thousands of YouTube videos full of copyrighted material which begin with the disclaimer, "X owns the material in this video. No copyright infringement intended." Waa? Of course you 'intended' to do it, you took the footage and used it. Exactly what does it take to become intended beyond ripping the footage, re-editing it, rendering it into a new video and uploading it to a site that tells you not to do that?

Anyway, some will tolerate fanfiction, others absolutely will not. If you're serious about developing your own voice, why not pour that creativity into something original?

rainsmom said:

What WriteKnight said.

Note that FanFiction.net has a very clear list on the home page of people who have said they do not want fan fiction posted about their property. FanFiction.net follows that and will not post those stories because they do not want to bring down the ire of the law on them and get the whole site shut down.

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I cannot find that list on the home page. Do you have a link to it?

(Perhaps it's staring me in the face.)

I find all of this really interesting! I never thought about fanfiction being illegal until I read this thread and did some googling on my own. I mean, it makes perfect sense, but when you're ensconced in the middle of fandom, you're not really thinking about whether all of your meta is legal or not, haha. It certainly gives me something to think about.

I used to work with this lawyer who at the time represented Apple Corp. (The Beatles). We were talking about the massive amount of infringement of Beatles album covers, songs, etc. He looked at me, sighed and said, "It's like stamping out cockroaches."

From the studios perspective, the question is not whether they have the rights to crush those who infringe on their IP. The question really is one of PR vs. what is gained by crushing them. For Disney, they went overboard in the late 90's by sending a cease and desist to a daycare who painted a Mickey Mouse on the wall--I think they might even have filed an action, I can't remember all the details. A studio's lawyers can cry "dilution of trademark" all they want, but at the end of the day, Disney had egg on their face for being so heavy-handed. And the LAST thing any studio wants is egg on their face, believe me. If you ever get a chance to have drinks with a studio's PR Rep, do it. It'll fascinate you as to how they work their magic to keep the studio smelling like a rose.

I think fanfiction is tolerated at the moment because there's not enough money being made by such sites. Shutting them down would seriously blow up in their faces and have people possibly boycotting or souring their movies. That's a straight bottom line issue.

That said, if all of a sudden, fanfiction became a huge moneymaker, the studios would cease and desist and sue the holy hell out of everyone and either make deals with the best of brand folks in that space, or create their own. But the chances of that happening are pretty much zero I think.

I cannot find that list on the home page. Do you have a link to it?

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Grrr. No, I can't. The site has changed since I was there last -- I can't even find their FAQ anymore. Sorry about that!

Verbal said:

I used to work with this lawyer who at the time represented Apple Corp. (The Beatles). We were talking about the massive amount of infringement of Beatles album covers, songs, etc. He looked at me, sighed and said, "It's like stamping out cockroaches."

From the studios perspective, the question is not whether they have the rights to crush those who infringe on their IP. The question really is one of PR vs. what is gained by crushing them. For Disney, they went overboard in the late 90's by sending a cease and desist to a daycare who painted a Mickey Mouse on the wall--I think they might even have filed an action, I can't remember all the details. A studio's lawyers can cry "dilution of trademark" all they want, but at the end of the day, Disney had egg on their face for being so heavy-handed. And the LAST thing any studio wants is egg on their face, believe me. If you ever get a chance to have drinks with a studio's PR Rep, do it. It'll fascinate you as to how they work their magic to keep the studio smelling like a rose.

I think fanfiction is tolerated at the moment because there's not enough money being made by such sites. Shutting them down would seriously blow up in their faces and have people possibly boycotting or souring their movies. That's a straight bottom line issue.

That said, if all of a sudden, fanfiction became a huge moneymaker, the studios would cease and desist and sue the holy hell out of everyone and either make deals with the best of brand folks in that space, or create their own. But the chances of that happening are pretty much zero I think.

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It's also important to understand, at least for purposes of this discussion, the difference between copyright and trademark.

With copyright issues, the copyright holder has the option when someone infringes -- he can pursue the matter or leave it alone. Or he can pursue one and leave one pretty much arbitrarily.

But when it comes to trademark, since the whole point of a trademark is the identification of the particular "mark" -- whatever it is, with the underlying brand -- the company who owns it -- the holder of a trademark is *required* to protect it.

You have to take action to stop people from infringing, even if they do it innocently or without intending to make a profit, or whatever.

Because if you fail to stop people from infringing on your trademark, you risk losing the mark.

And all of these things -- all of the images of the classic Disney Characters are not only copyrighted -- they are also trademarks of the Disney Corporation and, as trademarks, they have to defend their unauthorized use.

Of course, the easiest solution is to simply grant permission, when schools paint pictures of Mickey -- simply require that they include the trademark symbol and write down at the bottom (images of Disney characters used with permission of the Walt Disney Corporation) -- instead of coming across like Scrooge McDuck and threatening to sue them.

But what they can't do -- when they're dealing with trademarked stuff, is to simply shrug and let it pass -- when they see somebody infringing, they are legally obligated to stop it, or lose their trademark.

NMS