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Writing Erotica with the aid of Dramatica

Thread starter sunandshadow
Start date Dec 25, 2010

sunandshadow

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Dec 25, 2010

#1

If you haven't heard of it, Dramatica is a writer's aid program - possibly the most complex one that currently exists, and one of the only one's not based on the hero monomyth. It's intended to help people go from story concept to outline, including figuring out your theme, developing characters, making sure your story is well-rounded, and a 4-act structure. It's quite flexible in what it allows you to write, and even greater flexibly can be gotten out of it if you are willing to do some bits by hand rather than doing everything within the program.

Someone in a Dramatica writers community I belonged to asked if anyone had advice specific to writing erotica, especially fantasy erotica, with the aid of Dramatica. I thought, hey, there's something I could actually write easily - some intro on what erotica is, general design principles of erotic novels (or screenplays), and a walkthrough of me demonstrating how Dramatica could be used to develop two different erotic story concepts, one a steamy romance novel and one a non-romance.

So my question for you all is, are any of you interested in this article? I'm currently taking requests and suggestions for what to put in the article, and what the non-romance example story should be. If you have no interest in Dramatica only the first few paragraphs of the article would be accessible to you, so take that into account.

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 26, 2010

#2

Well, my research indicates that if the erotica isn't important to the story line - if one can take out the sex scenes and you still have a story - than you did it wrong.

Well, I'd be more interested to see someone actually write an erotica based story with the use of this program, just to see if it works or not.

sunandshadow

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Dec 26, 2010

#3

I'd certainly agree with your research there.

What the Dramatica program does is help you develop from vague idea or no idea to an outline. Theoretically it will be a particularly well-rounded and high-conflict outline, compared to the average outline written without Dramatica. If you don't like outlining, the program can also be used for general brainstorming, character development, or analyzing an existing piece of fiction you want to emulate. But basically, the program will only accompany you through the outline stage, you still have to be able to write the story yourself. So personally I think Dramatica would be most fairly evaluated by looking at outlines produced with it, not actual stories because the quality of those will vary with the skill of the writer.

Also, anyone who has no problem writing good erotic stories without Dramatica's help would automatically be able to write one with Dramatica's input. So a good finished story would not be proof of the program's efficacy by itself, you'd have to be able to follow along with the creation process and see what Dramatica has contributing vs. what the writer was contributing.

scarletpeaches

Banned

Dec 27, 2010

#4

singsebastian said:
Well, my research indicates that if the erotica isn't important to the story line - if one can take out the sex scenes and you still have a story - than you did it wrong.

sunandshadow said:
I'd certainly agree with your research there.

And I'd completely disagree with that. Both of my publishers want erotica with a story, not wall-to-wall mindless fucking.

Of course, it could be that we're splitting hairs over the difference between erotica and erotic romance, the romantic arc of course being essential to the latter, otherwise...well, it's not romance.

But I don't know of any erotica publisher worth their salt who would be happy with the mindless fucking, sans storyline.

sunandshadow

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Dec 27, 2010

#5

scarletpeaches said:
And I'd completely disagree with that. Both of my publishers want erotica with a story, not wall-to-wall mindless fucking.

Of course, it could be that we're splitting hairs over the difference between erotica and erotic romance, the romantic arc of course being essential to the latter, otherwise...well, it's not romance.

But I don't know of any erotica publisher worth their salt who would be happy with the mindless fucking, sans storyline.

Um, I think "erotica is important to the storyline" is quite different from "sex substituted in place of a storyline". So I think what you're disagreeing with isn't really what we were talking about. What I believe is that erotic content vs. non erotic content in a piece of erotica is a balancing act, just like so many things in life. I believe that it's important to give readers a mental breather between arousing parts of the book, because the brain just isn't designed to be continuously aroused with hours, it gets bored with chapter after chapter of nothing but sex. It's like how your nose gets used to a smell and you can't smell it any more even though it's still there. I do agree that non-romantic erotica will have a bit higher percentage sex than romantic erotica.

This conversation particularly amuses me because the intro to the article I made this thread to talk about, which I wrote three days ago, is specifically about balancing erotic and non-erotic content in designing an erotic story. I thought it was an important topic to my own article because Dramatica most naturally produces stories which are evenly balanced between several types of content. That sort of balance would give you a story that's at most 25% erotic and romantic content - not enough in my opinion, for this genre. I'd aim for more like 50%, and I've seen successful romance novels that are as extreme as 75% relationship content and 25% external plot and non-romantic conflict. Fortunately it's not hard to get Dramatica to produce a story that's slightly lop-sided in favor of extra relationship or sexual content, you just have to be aware at the beginning of the process that you want to do that instead of following the default.

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#6

sunandshadow said:
I'd certainly agree with your research there.

What the Dramatica program does is help you develop from vague idea or no idea to an outline. Theoretically it will be a particularly well-rounded and high-conflict outline, compared to the average outline written without Dramatica. If you don't like outlining, the program can also be used for general brainstorming, character development, or analyzing an existing piece of fiction you want to emulate. But basically, the program will only accompany you through the outline stage, you still have to be able to write the story yourself. So personally I think Dramatica would be most fairly evaluated by looking at outlines produced with it, not actual stories because the quality of those will vary with the skill of the writer.

Also, anyone who has no problem writing good erotic stories without Dramatica's help would automatically be able to write one with Dramatica's input. So a good finished story would not be proof of the program's efficacy by itself, you'd have to be able to follow along with the creation process and see what Dramatica has contributing vs. what the writer was contributing.

well, I am not an outliner but it does sound promising.

@Scarletpeaches,

Sorry, I was pretty vague with that...

Lemme see -

Ummm. if you are writing a romance, and it just so happens to have a good plot line and character, but it has sex in it, than it'd be Erotic Romance. If you take out the sex scenes - you have a romance with a good plot and story, if you take out the romance you have a good story and plot. From my research, then, that means you aren't actually writing Erotica or Romance. Somehow the Erotica/Romance has to be entwined in the plot/story to call it an Erotic Romance.

I hope that makes sense, I am not sure though.

scarletpeaches

Banned

Dec 27, 2010

#7

I think I agree. But I might not. I've taken migraine meds today and this always was a braintwister of a subject for me at the best of times!

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#8

scarletpeaches said:
I think I agree. But I might not. I've taken migraine meds today and this always was a braintwister of a subject for me at the best of times!

That's okay. I hope your headache gets better. *hug*

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

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Dec 27, 2010

#9

People say the same thing about science fiction and fantasy: "If none of the science fiction or fantasy elements are crucial to the plot, it's not real science fiction or fantasy." Things that are just there for decoration don't affect the true nature of the story.

Hope you feel better - I get eyestrain headaches sometimes, they are bad enough but I've heard migraines are much worse.

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Self-Ban

Registered

Dec 27, 2010

#10

singsebastian said:
Well, my research indicates that if the erotica isn't important to the story line - if one can take out the sex scenes and you still have a story - than you did it wrong.

I know a lot of people follow this line of thought. But I don't, and I don't think I am 'doing it wrong'. Sometimes my erotica has sex in the primary story line, sometimes the people in the primary story line just also have sex--and the sex reflects rather than drives the character arc. I think either is fine.

I also think costume sci fi and space opera are just fine without have a sci-spec element driving the primary plot. The can still be superb examples of the genre.

We don't need to limit ourselves.

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#11

veinglory said:
I know a lot of people follow this line of thought. But I don't, and I don't think I am 'doing it wrong'. Sometimes my erotica has sex in the primary story line, sometimes the people in the primary story line just also have sex--and the sex reflects rather than drives the character arc. I think either is fine.

I also think costume sci fi and space opera are just fine without have a sci-spec element driving the primary plot. The can still be superb examples of the genre.

We don't need to limit ourselves.

I think writing is subjective and you can't actually write anything wrong. There may be bad writting, but that's not the stories fault but more or less that the author in question needed more practice at the craft.

I dunno, I've read some stuff like you write and I liked it well enough. I guess it just depends on who one asks.

Anyway - has anyone else used this program? My parents got me a writing program but....it really just stilted my writing.

sunandshadow

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Dec 27, 2010

#12

My personal feeling is that speculative fiction which does not have a speculative element at some key point in the plot is a slightly different genre form that which does. The same applies to stories where the sex is integral to the plot vs. those where it isn't - I don't think the two are quite the same genre. There's no reason not to write and read both. Only a small percentage of readers will be upset if they expect one and get the other. But I think that it's helpful to a writer to know which you are trying to write because they work a little differently.

As for Dramatica, from the general lack of response I was assuming most people here hadn't tried it and weren't interested in trying it. That's fine with me, if a little disappointing because it means there's no real interest in my article. But Dramatica is intended for people who either 1. Have trouble selling their writing because some areas are underdeveloped or disorganized, or 2. Have trouble going from vague idea to story at all. People who don't have trouble with one of those don't need Dramatica, unless they just enjoy reading all the different theories of writing fiction they can get their hands on.

Discussion of writers' aid programs is considered to belong in the Tech forum here, if did a forum search on "dramatica" you would find some past discussion about it and other programs. But overall, because James A Ritchie (Uncle Jim) the owner/leader of this forum is rather prejudiced against writing software, you don't see too much positive discussion of them.

Last edited: Dec 27, 2010

Captcha

Banned

Dec 27, 2010

#13

I don't write or read pure erotica, so I could be totally wrong, but coming from the perspective of erotic romance, I wonder if the reason for the lack of interest in the software is that the structure of the story is already somewhat laid out by the genre.

Obviously this is more true if you're writing in the Rules-heavy mainstream Romance genre, but even in erotic romance, we're expected to have the characters meet fairly early in the book, go through some challenges, and be reasonably happy by the end. If the main thing that Dramatica does (I've never used it) is help with structure, maybe erotic romance writers just don't need it.

Pure conjecture, of course.

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#14

I'm not sure if a lot of writers use writting programs. I started writting when I was a kid and when I tried the writting program - it didn't show/tell me anything knew. It was on sale though at the store so I don't feel bad about not using it. I can't even find the disk....I wonder if I gave it to a friend......

Anyway -
Writing is just a perpetual exercise in practice.

sunandshadow

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Dec 27, 2010

#15

Kate_Sherwood said:
I don't write or read pure erotica, so I could be totally wrong, but coming from the perspective of erotic romance, I wonder if the reason for the lack of interest in the software is that the structure of the story is already somewhat laid out by the genre.

Obviously this is more true if you're writing in the Rules-heavy mainstream Romance genre, but even in erotic romance, we're expected to have the characters meet fairly early in the book, go through some challenges, and be reasonably happy by the end. If the main thing that Dramatica does (I've never used it) is help with structure, maybe erotic romance writers just don't need it.

Pure conjecture, of course.

Hmm. An interesting theory, but I don't think it's right. I've read some examples of good non-romance erotica which were quite structurally different from each other. That is a challenge I'm currently facing in writing this article - what type of non-romantic erotica do I want to use as an example? I was hoping to get requests from people who thought my article might help them write their non-romance erotica, but it hasn't happened. Romance in general is somewhat formulaic, but that doesn't make it easy to write - I've seen lots of people ask for help with the plot of a romance novel.

Dramatica does theme and character as well as plot structure, but plot structure seems to be the main thing people want to use the program to help them with. I think that's interesting in light of the fact that the original advertisement campaign for Dramatica was aimed at screenwriters who had structure mostly figured out, due to the rigid requirements of the screenplay format, but who needed help with theme.

Last edited: Dec 27, 2010

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#16

sunandshadow said:
Hmm. An interesting theory, but I don't think it's right. I've read some examples of good non-romance erotica which were quite structurally different from each other. That is a challenge I'm currently facing in writing this article - what type of non-romantic erotica do I want to use as an example? I was hoping to get requests from people who thought my article might help them write their non-romance erotica, but it hasn't happened. Romance in general is somewhat formulaic, but that doesn't make it easy to write - I've seen lots of people ask for help with the plot of a romance novel.

Dramatica does theme and character as well as plot structure, but plot structure seems to be the main thing people want to use the program to help them with. I think that's interesting in light of the fact that the original advertisement campaign for Dramatica was aimed at screenwriters who had structure mostly figured out, due to the rigid requirements of the screenplay format, but who needed help with theme.

I want to know why people think that everything has to have a theme. Maybe I don't want one! - err...hissy-fit over. I just needed to get that off my chest.

Well - I am sure that any writer can use it. Maybe it'd be more condusive to people who want to write and have to figure things out first. Someone who has always wanted to write, and has just recently decided to do it - but now they have to figure everything out and this program may help them more than say....someone who has been writting for years.

Just sayin.

scarletpeaches

Banned

Dec 27, 2010

#17

Every book has a theme, whether you like it or not. A theme is nothing more or less than the overall 'truth' of the universe you've created.

Not that it's anything I consciously inject into a book when I'm writing the first draft. It arises naturally from the characters and events, and I play it up on the edits. I know I've hit the jackpot when my manuscript feels right.

sunandshadow

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Dec 27, 2010

#18

singsebastian said:
I want to know why people think that everything has to have a theme. Maybe I don't want one! - err...hissy-fit over. I just needed to get that off my chest.

Well - I am sure that any writer can use it. Maybe it'd be more condusive to people who want to write and have to figure things out first. Someone who has always wanted to write, and has just recently decided to do it - but now they have to figure everything out and this program may help them more than say....someone who has been writting for years.

Just sayin.

Haha. Weren't you saying you're most interested in BDSM? That's some of the theme-heaviest writing in erotica. It's all about control, responsibility, restraint, hierarchy, balancing destructive desires with affection or ethics, possessiveness... that's theme, good luck finding a good BDSM story without any.

singsebastian

New kid, be gentle!

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Dec 27, 2010

#19

sunandshadow said:
Haha. Weren't you saying you're most interested in BDSM? That's some of the theme-heaviest writing in erotica. It's all about control, responsibility, restraint, hierarchy, balancing destructive desires with affection or ethics, possessiveness... that's theme, good luck finding a good BDSM story without any.

Oh I know. I've just started my BDSM WIP and it does have a theme! There is no way around it.

Which means that Scarletpeaches is right! :snoopy:

:snoopy:

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