3 Things About Writing and Drawing Comics You Should Know

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Droemar

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First, bad art is laughable. I've noticed a lot of people post work online that clearly shows that they have not only not taken any drawing classes, they think that because they managed to eke it out onto the page, it deserves attention. As someone whose bread an butter is professional art, I find this somewhat insulting. It's as if art is treated as something "cute", without effort, a mere hobby, and not something that you would invest hours and hours of time in like you would if you were going to be a surgeon, a lawyer, or, well, even a writer. There are a lot of good artists out there, and the field is extremely competitive. Perhaps this has led to the rift between really good artists and really affordable ones. If you don't have a good artist, someone with style, professional polish, and at least a working knowledge of how to visually tell a story: you are wasting your time. Please keep in mind that cover illustrators are what get someone to pick up your novel. Art is not an afterthought. Good art is worth paying for, and if you're not paying for it, or treating the artist as a pity party, you're going to get what you give. Any artist that has made the effort to learn the basics of visual storytelling probably wants to be validated with pay, not the old adage of "Hey, people will get to look at your petty pictures if you draw what I say!" (Which is never pitched to mechanics or veterinarians trying to establish themselves, I notice.) In graphic novels, the writing and the art are equally important. Wall-eyed, anatomically awkward characters with bad pose, worse composition, terrible color palettes, and uncanny valley in spades isn't going to sell. Odds are, the person you're trying to pitch to is going to chuck it aside for someone who has an inkling of skill.

Second, novel writing is not a script. Script writing is about communication. Good, open communication that leaves room for both parties to breathe creatively. The writer is not a tyrant just because they're in charge of story. It's within the nature of writers to want to tell too much, and the devil in the details will strangle your artist. As a writer, you are responsible for what the characters say, what they do, and how the story plays out. How it LOOKS is up the artist. Referring back to the first rule, the artist's portfolio should reflect a particular skill set. Namely, that they've done sequential art before, and have the ability to make visually interesting characters and action scenes. If your artist can't do that: don't look at them for your project. You're wasting your time. If your artist draws armored superheroes covered in chains and bloody skulls, why would you ask them to draw your whimsical graphic novel about kittens? And this bears repeating: if your artist can barely scribble down a face in an hour, why would you ask them to draw buildings and backgrounds and airships and monsters? The flip side of these is that a writer should be allowed to make suggestions or requests of the artist. The artist is allowed to veto, but under no circumstances does that mean that an artist's ego is allowed to hijack your idea in their quest for validation as a "true artist." If you have a good artist, you don't need to worry about what things are going to look like. A lot of people have mentioned Niel Gaiman, who in the Sandman Collector's Edition, remarked that he was always astonished with the artwork when it came back. Know why? Because the people on board were good already, and he didn't have to sweat it. If you're the writer, concentrate on making your writing awesome. Study how scripts work, how pacing in comics work. Do your homework. Your artist will work on making it LOOK awesome. It's their responsibility, not yours, and if you've chosen wisely, you'll be much happier, won't you?

A contract is necessary for both parties. I've noticed that a lot of new artists are willing to accept work that doesn't pay for the chance to "get out there" and see their work taken, never to be heard from again. I've also read a couple of lamentations from writers who paid their artists up front and got shafted when the artist skipped down. As a professional artist in the games industry, I noticed when I was trying to break into the field, that the shady sorts treated a contract request as insult, while the real professionals wouldn't think of doing it any other way. If you want an artist, get a contract. A Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) is the most common of its kind. It lays out whatever rules the artist and writer agree to, with the added bonus that neither of you will blab about the project before its launch (spoilers can affect sales.) You both get a copy of the contract. You don't sign the contract until you're happy with it. Again, contracts are a sign of professionalism. So even if you are doing this with a friend and it's all understood under the table: get a contract. People who don't operate with one are already not operating on a professional level, and professional level is what you WANT to show to a publisher. Yes, the contract should include compensation; would you sign a contract with your agent that said "Eh, you might get some money if the agent feels like it." If you feel like $1000 is too much to pay for an artist to sit down and draw, ink, and color a hundred pages: ask them how many hours they're willing to work. Because if they spend 10 hours on each page, that's $10 an hour (and 10 hours per comic page, while accounting for thumbnailing, composition sketches, color studies, and all the background work that goes in to perfecting a spread, is really not that much at all.) They could make more than that in a lot of other professions, or even in another contract job. Your contract should say who is getting paid what and when. And if things go south, and you want to pursue damages in a legal way, at least you have a document permissible as legal evidence.
 
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Miss Plum

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I said many of these same things over a year ago here and got pasted for it -- and I'm a writer. Let's see how you do.
 

J_Jammer

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Nice advice. I'd like to find an awesome artist to work with.
 

Axler

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I said many of these same things over a year ago here and got pasted for it -- and I'm a writer. Let's see how you do.

There do seem to be some people in this particular forum who turn resentful when folks with some real world experience intrude into the four-color fantasy.

When I made my first posts here years ago, I was met with a degree of hostility because I apparently was making comics and comics publishing seem all too real for the innocent li'l beginners.

And even if that wasn't the case, there does seem to be a distinct lack of interest when it comes to seeking the input of credentialed professionals in this field who occasionally show up in this forum.

When Colleen Doran made a few posts here a couple of years back, the general tenor of response was >crickets<.

No wonder she stopped contributing. I wonder why I still do.

Maybe that should be a New Year's Resolution...
 

J_Jammer

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I think it's good you still contribute and the OP did as well.
 

Droemar

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I have to admit I'd be a little surprised if someone yelled at me for telling the truth. I think Axler's got the right of it; the difference between dreams and reality are those willing to face the truth.
Nonetheless, GN and illustration tend to be the underdogs when it comes to writing forums, so I'll consider it a cry for the voiceless.
 

dpaterso

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I'm a tad puzzled by the expectation (?) that argument or put-down is expected in response to the OP, which reads well and makes sense... in fact it's common sense.

I see variations of the same advice expressed on comic message boards, especially when writers looking for artists post ads but offer no payment up front, just a fifty-fifty profit split deal. These posters are sometimes ridiculed or attacked since that's seen as disrespectful to the artist (what with fifty percent of zero being zero, and the chances of an amateur project seeing print and making realistic money are low).

However, most ad traffic is amateur/hobbyist, at which level perhaps these common sense rules don't mean as much....

-Derek
 

sunandshadow

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However, most ad traffic is amateur/hobbyist, at which level perhaps these common sense rules don't mean as much....
There's no perhaps about it. If people whose art isn't professional yet and people whose writing isn't professional yet don't get together and make rough awkward comics, they aren't learning how to make comics and won't mature into professionals. A professional laughing at or insulting an amateur who is still learning their craft is just a bitter person who wants to pass on the abuse they tool as a amateur and their resentment about how hard it is to get paid for professional art or writing, or has a swelled ego from having made it to a higher level of the pecking order.
 

dpaterso

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There's no perhaps about it. If people whose art isn't professional yet and people whose writing isn't professional yet don't get together and make rough awkward comics, they aren't learning how to make comics and won't mature into professionals. A professional laughing at or insulting an amateur who is still learning their craft is just a bitter person who wants to pass on the abuse they tool as a amateur and their resentment about how hard it is to get paid for professional art or writing, or has a swelled ego from having made it to a higher level of the pecking order.
Not sure where that came from or what it applies to.

-Derek
 

Droemar

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If people whose art isn't professional yet and people whose writing isn't professional yet don't get together and make rough awkward comics, they aren't learning how to make comics and won't mature into professionals. A professional laughing at or insulting an amateur who is still learning their craft is just a bitter person who wants to pass on the abuse they tool as a amateur and their resentment about how hard it is to get paid for professional art or writing, or has a swelled ego from having made it to a higher level of the pecking order.

As someone garnering a core audience for her book from a teen art site called Deviantart, I must strongly disagree. Many, many young artists are more than capable of moving under their own impetus, taking art classes, drawing with friends, and learning how to get better. Your argument suggests the equivalent of "unless a writer is called upon by someone else to write, they will not write and get better." Comic artists make their own comics, writers write short stories or fanfiction: neither of this means that either of them are professional level yet.
A professional telling an amateur "You're not ready yet" is akin to a rejection letter being sent to a teen writer. An art director is like an editor; they determine that work is or is not of a required quality. It's no more acceptable to have bad art than it is to have bad writing; comics and graphic novels must go through a critiquing process for both. My initial post merely pointed that a lot of people are blissfully unaware of the need for both to be good, and that there are levels of "good art" the same as there are levels of "good writing." Art obeys or plays with the elements of visual storytelling the same way writing plays with the elements of dramatic storytelling; there are standards for both. Kind of attempting to say "If you're not quite at that standard yet, give yourself more time to save yourself disappointment."
 
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Bicyclefish

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I said many of these same things over a year ago here and got pasted for it -- and I'm a writer. Let's see how you do.
What thread was this?

When I made my first posts here years ago, I was met with a degree of hostility because I apparently was making comics and comics publishing seem all too real for the innocent li'l beginners.

And even if that wasn't the case, there does seem to be a distinct lack of interest when it comes to seeking the input of credentialed professionals in this field who occasionally show up in this forum.
Hostility from who... or is it "whom"? Sorry, I muck those up.

My personal opinion is that's because people either think they know enough or don't like the truth of how things work, which unfortunately can lead to hostilities.

I see variations of the same advice expressed on comic message boards, especially when writers looking for artists post ads but offer no payment up front, just a fifty-fifty profit split deal. These posters are sometimes ridiculed or attacked since that's seen as disrespectful to the artist (what with fifty percent of zero being zero, and the chances of an amateur project seeing print and making realistic money are low).

However, most ad traffic is amateur/hobbyist, at which level perhaps these common sense rules don't mean as much....
The forums frequent have collaborations/unpaid areas, so any hostility I see tends to occur when someone posts a back end deal in the paid jobs or includes phrases like "guaranteed hit" (if it's a guarantee then the client can pay in advance), "want a dedicated, professional artist who can meet deadlines for a graphic novel" (hard to find that for free), and "great exposure".

There's no perhaps about it. If people whose art isn't professional yet and people whose writing isn't professional yet don't get together and make rough awkward comics, they aren't learning how to make comics and won't mature into professionals. A professional laughing at or insulting an amateur who is still learning their craft is just a bitter person who wants to pass on the abuse they tool as a amateur and their resentment about how hard it is to get paid for professional art or writing, or has a swelled ego from having made it to a higher level of the pecking order.
Yup, amateurs need to practice, and most everyone starts at the bottom, but I can't recall a professional "laughing at or insulting an amateur". People being people, I'm sure there are egotistical artists as well as egotistical writers out there, but if a pro (writer, artist or editor) looks at your work and says, "You need to improve," they're likely not putting you down or trying to pass on abuse. A lot of them, in my opinion, are being honest.
 

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I think some of the initial hostility--if it could be called that and not just snarkiness--directed toward me was due in the main that I was viewed as intruding into territory already staked out by self-proclaimed experts.

We eventually got it worked out, after a comparision of credential sizes.
 
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Bicyclefish

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I, a writer, opined here that writers can't draw as well as artists, and that artists should be paid as well for their work as I hope to be for mine. Barbarity ensued.
In my opinion, there wasn't "barbarity" nor people being "royal snots", and it was kind of rude to label everyone as such.

The problem appeared to be with those seeking a simple answer as to how to break into comics. It's pretty widely agreed that as a writer it's much harder. An editor can glance at an art portfolio and quickly whether the style is right for their projects, but reading a sample script takes more time and effort. Is it unfair? Perhaps. But that's the way it is.

I think it’s way tougher for a writer to break in than an artist. But of course, if you do get work as a writer, the bright side is that you can do very well in this business in making an income with wider opportunities. - Joe Quesada
The Tao of Breaking Into Comics, According to C.B. Cebulski is worth a read, in my humble opinion. Of course, there are paths other than going with the big two, and there are ways around the "rules", but it's not necessarily going to be any easier.

We eventually got it worked out, after a comparision of credential sizes.
I hear you also play a mean bass while fixing a fridge... AT THE SAME TIME!!11!
 
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Rhubix

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First, bad art is laughable.

It's as if art is treated as something "cute", without effort, a mere hobby, and not something that you would invest hours and hours of time in like you would if you were going to be a surgeon, a lawyer, or, well, even a writer. There are a lot of good artists out there, and the field is extremely competitive. Perhaps this has led to the rift between really good artists and really affordable ones.

Good art is worth paying for, and if you're not paying for it, or treating the artist as a pity party, you're going to get what you give. Any artist that has made the effort to learn the basics of visual storytelling probably wants to be validated with pay, not the old adage of "Hey, people will get to look at your petty pictures if you draw what I say!" (Which is never pitched to mechanics or veterinarians trying to establish themselves, I notice.)

As someone who makes a living as an animator I would just like to add:
No I will not draw you a tattoo / poster / design your character etc... For you for free, or for cheap. I don't come to your house and ask you to make me a burger- or do my taxes- or *Insert occupation here**

It makes me insane. People think it's okay to ask artists to create art for them out of the goodness of their hearts. Pencils aren't free and neither is my rent! As an animator I have spent upwards of 12 hours a week sitting in public spaces, just to practice drawing people from life. More often then not, strangers will come up to me asking for portraits. I say 20$ and they leave me alone. EVERY TIME!

/end rant
 

Axler

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I honestly don't see the level of hostility in that "Leonardo and Shakespeare" thread you refer to.

Yeah, you had a couple of self-professed experts with far more ambitiion than actual credentials pontificating about the comics industry and what it takes for writers to break in...

But that's true of just about every forum and thread in this place.

My only contributions to it were posts questioning Joe Quesada's writer submission guidelines about how to break into Marvel.

Withal--

Probably everyone should just understand from the outset that neither Marvel or DC have any interest whatsoever in seeking new writers who have no published credentials and move on from there.

Seperate the fantasy-land chaff from the real-world wheat, so to speak.

Everyone should also understand that if you're hoping to place a graphic novel and you have no prior published credentials in that form, you're going to have to provide graphics when you submit a proposal package.

A script is not enough nor are pages filled with boxes and stick figures.
 

Bicyclefish

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I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about and I'm not going to bother relitigating any of that shit -- I haven't even read that thread about Shakespeare and Leonardo to the end, I got so disgusted with the dimwitted arguments in it. I think it's interesting that a lot of my concerns seem to be vindicated in this thread, "Should I learn to draw or hire an artist."
In the second thread you linked to I don't see the hostility either.

Everyone should also understand that if you're hoping to place a graphic novel and you have no prior published credentials in that form, you're going to have to provide graphics when you submit a proposal package.
Ditto this.

I understand it's frustrating to comic writers that they need graphics when submitting to certain publishers and/or agents, but getting mad doesn't help. Is it unfair new writers need to complete their novel before querying an agent or publisher? To the new writer trying to break it it might feel like it, but that's the way it is.
 

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Just a question, and please don't bite my head off, but what about amateur writers who live way below the American poverty line and can't seem to get any critique whatsoever without holding a gun to someone's head? How do they ever move forward? Because it seems like they're lacking two key elements in ever being able to.

This may be my last foray into asking questions of this nature on this or any forum.
 

Wolvel

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The problem with knowledge is that it can be compared to a weapon, in the wrong hands it does you no good.

What I mean is I would rather hear from someone like Axler who has inside knowledge of how the industry works. Rather than someone who thinks they know yet their holding the wrong end of the weapon.
 

AerostarMonk

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Which are..?

There are plenty of free general writing critique sites but do you mean comics/graphic novels specifically?

Money and constructive criticism. I can't seem to get a hold of much of either.

Yes, I'm talking about comics/graphic novels specifically. I can find dozens of people who are willing to read novels, screenplays and theatrical plays at pretty much any stage in the process, but can never seem to find too many people willing to read a comic script. I'm always told they can't make the leap without the pictures.
 

Axler

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It's a very specialized medium...people who don't have the cultural touchstone of comics can kinda-sorta visualize a movie or play, but they have problems doing the same with a comic script.

My suggestion would be to break the pages down into panels even with stick figures and attach them to the script pages. Draw in the dialogue balloons and number them, making sure they correspond with the numbering on the actual script pages.
 
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