Are people selling themselves short?

sassandgroove · Oct 3, 2005

I've read thread after thread of people (usually esteemed new members) asking: Why not self-publish? What is wrong with PublishAmerica? Or, What is wrong with POD? Why not publish e-books?

I read these questions, I read the responses, most often from the 'board elders', offering sage advice. Submit, submit, submit. If the agent/publisher doesn't want it there is probably a reason. Re write. Why would anyone buy a book they can't browse when there are so many in brick and mortar stores? Etc, etc, etc.

As a newbie, I read these and think, "Yeah. That sounds good." I make mental notes, I evaluate my own novel, I read books on writing, & I do some of the exercises from Uncle Jim. I believe the elders; they are published after all, something I want to be. But then the questions inevitably resurface. or the original posters try to defend the premise the elders are warning against.

After all is said and done, it seems to me these people are selling themselves short. They say they think their story is great, that the world would love it if they could just get it, and therefore they must self-publish. But I see something different in these responses. I see that they either want a get published the easy way scheme, or they don't really believe in their story enough to go the long haul, to get 1,000 rejections, to invest in the envelopes, the stamps, the late night revising sessions, the pain of having a story close to the heart get ripped. But by not going through that, their story is never going to get its fair shake. There is no easy get published quick scheme.

brinkett · Oct 3, 2005

sassandgroove said:
I see that they either want a get published the easy way scheme, or they don't really believe in their story enough to go the long haul, to get 1,000 rejections, to invest in the envelopes, the stamps, the late night revising sessions, the pain of having a story close to the heart get ripped. But by not going through that, their story is never going to get its fair shake. There is no easy get published quick scheme.

In most cases, I think that's true. But some authors of self-published books (including through POD) got the 1,000 rejections, thought, "well, I'll give it to iUniverse or lulu or whoever rather than have it sit in a drawer," generated good word of mouth, and landed a publishing contract with a traditional publisher. Others (most others) did the same and never landed the contract because their work wasn't good enough, but they still tried before going POD. So not everyone self-publishes because they don't want to go through the submissions process.

Ultimately, only the author can decide if they sold themselves short. It'll depend on their goals, what they'd already tried, how well their self-published book does, etc.

Aconite · Oct 3, 2005

brinkett said:
But some authors of self-published books (including through POD) got the 1,000 rejections, thought, "well, I'll give it to iUniverse or lulu or whoever rather than have it sit in a drawer," generated good word of mouth, and landed a publishing contract with a traditional publisher.

This is so rare, though, that it makes you wonder if the author in question had written a good book but really, really sucked at submissions, and would have gotten that commercial contract first if he'd been able to represent the book better.

brinkett · Oct 3, 2005

Aconite said:
This is so rare, though, that it makes you wonder if the author in question had written a good book but really, really sucked at submissions, and would have gotten that commercial contract first if he'd been able to represent the book better.

Yes, I'm sure some terrific novels don't see the light of day because of bad query letters. You can have a great manuscript, but if you can't write a great query, which I think requires a certain type of skill that not all novelists have, it might never be read.

But I've read interviews with a few of the authors who went POD and then were picked up by a commercial publisher, and every one of them said that editors/agents read their full manuscripts, but turned them down because of concerns about marketability (despite liking the work).

The point remains that if you've submitted to every place you can think of and then some, you might go POD or self-publish. At that point, only the author can decide if they're selling themself short.

Valona · Oct 3, 2005

Aconite said:
This is so rare, though, that it makes you wonder if the author in question had written a good book but really, really sucked at submissions, and would have gotten that commercial contract first if he'd been able to represent the book better.

I think I may be an example of this problem.

I've had my critiquers, (beta readers, if you will) tell me they think my book has great potential. They loved the book, became emotionally involved with my characters, cried when they hurt, laughed when they laughed. Still, I can't seem to get an agent or editor interested in it.

After submitting 40 or 50 query letters, all with the same canned reponse "... not for us," I've decided it's my approach, not my book. The book never got to them. So, I'm back to the drawing board, so to speak, re-drafting my query.

I think it would help if we could take courses in marketing before we draft those query letters.

Honey Nut Loop · Oct 3, 2005

Have you posted your query letter in the share your work query letter critique section Valona? Lots of people can help you out there.

Valona · Oct 3, 2005

I have. And thanks to those good people, I'm ready to start sending it out again.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Aconite · Oct 3, 2005

brinkett said:
But I've read interviews with a few of the authors who went POD and then were picked up by a commercial publisher, and every one of them said that editors/agents read their full manuscripts, but turned them down because of concerns about marketability (despite liking the work).

Those people are obviously good candidates for self-publishing, then. It does make sense under certain conditions. That's rare, though. The majority of people who end up self-publishing don't fall under those conditions and don't understand why. The ones who pull it off get a lot of publicity, and that leads newbies to think it happens more than it does.

sassandgroove · Oct 3, 2005

Brinkett, I know there are success stories of self-publishing. I'm talking about people that spend more time defending the idea then they spend perfecting their story so it can be published. It just seems to me there are people who want the easy answer, the magic word. ---

---I lost my thought, someone actually came in and asked a work related question. Can you imagine? I will update if I remeber the rest. ---

victoriastrauss · Oct 3, 2005

brinkett said:
The point remains that if you've submitted to every place you can think of and then some, you might go POD or self-publish. At that point, only the author can decide if they're selling themself short.

I agree. It's the writers who turn to POD first--because, for instance, they've bought into the writers' myth that it's "impossible" for new writers to get interest from an established agent or from a reputable publisher--who are selling themselves short, IMO. If you haven't tried the commercial route, you really have no idea of whether or not you could succeed.

Another way of selling yourself short is to confine your querying to marginal agents and mom-and-pop publishers because you think a newbie has no chance with the big boys.

- Victoria

Aconite · Oct 3, 2005

Valona said:
I've had my critiquers, (beta readers, if you will) tell me they think my book has great potential. They loved the book, became emotionally involved with my characters, cried when they hurt, laughed when they laughed. Still, I can't seem to get an agent or editor interested in it.

Also, consider the ability of your readers to judge whether or not your manuscript is ready for publication. A book can be emotionally gripping, but if the mechanics of it are awkward, it'll be a hard sell.

Fingers crossed. I hope this new, improved query letter does it for you!

brinkett · Oct 3, 2005

I'm talking about people that spend more time defending the idea then they spend perfecting their story so it can be published

And I said that in most cases I think you're right. But as I said, only the author can decide if they sold themselves short, since everyone has different motivations, goals, etc. Someone who self-publishes and expects to become a rich and famous author has probably sold herself short.

The majority of people who end up self-publishing don't fall under those conditions and don't understand why. The ones who pull it off get a lot of publicity, and that leads newbies to think it happens more than it does.

Sure it does, and don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting jumping to self-publishing is a good way to go. I was addressing sassandgroove's thought that everyone self-publishes because they don't want to go through the gruelling submissions process. Sometimes there are other reasons.

Aconite · Oct 3, 2005

brinkett said:
I was addressing sassandgroove's thought that everyone self-publishes because they don't want to go through the gruelling submissions process. Sometimes there are other reasons.

Ah. From the original post, it was clear to me that sassandgroove was talking about a certain kind of author who goes for self-publishing, not for all self-published authors.

Tiaga · Oct 3, 2005

Are people selling themselves short?

My friend is a midget and a nouvella writer, he certainly is.

Honey Nut Loop · Oct 3, 2005

I'm a midget too at 5ft3 (and a half). Shorties forever. Lol. It's easier to get away with though being female.

Valona · Oct 3, 2005

5' 3" isn't short. Try 4' 8" (not me, someone very close to me, though) and I know people even shorter.

Lyra Jean · Oct 3, 2005

No midgets are 4'0" or shorter. I probably have you all beat at being 4'10" tall. Tall enough to reach the ground.

I would only POD if I was creating my family tree or something of a very personal nature and then I would probably just go to Kinko's. No one ever told me writing was easy. I have been lucky that my friends and family support me and let me know when something is bad.

aadams73 · Oct 3, 2005

Honey Nut Loop said:
I'm a midget too at 5ft3 (and a half). Shorties forever. Lol. It's easier to get away with though being female.

5ft3 is the best height to be!

scarletpeaches · Oct 3, 2005

I'm 5'2".

In an effort to keep this on-topic, I would never self-publish. I will not let The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook beat me!

Jamesaritchie · Oct 3, 2005

brinkett said:
In most cases, I think that's true. But some authors of self-published books (including through POD) got the 1,000 rejections, thought, "well, I'll give it to iUniverse or lulu or whoever rather than have it sit in a drawer," generated good word of mouth, and landed a publishing contract with a traditional publisher. .

How many? Three? Most of the self-published writers I've seen who landed publishing contracts either never submitted the novel to traditional publishers, or only submitted to a tiny few, or only sent around query letters and never had anyone who knew what they were doing, editor or agent, look at the novel itself. In other words, most of teh self-published novels I've seen succeed were one that the writer never gave any sort of fair chance at traditional publishers.

And the number that succeed at all is so incredibly small that it's nearly always a hole writer will never climb out of.

Rather than selling themselves short by realizing they've written something that just isn't any good, it seems to me the vast majority of self-pubished writers are selling themselves long by believing, without any reason at all, that what they've written is good and the world needs to see it. So instead of staying the course and learning how to write something that is good, they invest all their time and energy into self-pubishing something that is just one more horrible novel that lands on a mountain of other horrible novels.

brinkett · Oct 3, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
How many? Three? Most of the self-published writers I've seen who landed publishing contracts either never submitted the novel to traditional publishers, or only submitted to a tiny few, or only sent around query letters and never had anyone who knew what they were doing, editor or agent, look at the novel itself. In other words, most of teh self-published novels I've seen succeed were one that the writer never gave any sort of fair chance at traditional publishers.

Well, I've read a number of interviews in the past year with authors who did shop their novel around, weren't successful, self-published, and were picked up by a commercial publisher.

Rather than selling themselves short by realizing they've written something that just isn't any good, it seems to me the vast majority of self-pubished writers are selling themselves long by believing, without any reason at all, that what they've written is good and the world needs to see it.

No, I think some of them have realistic goals in mind, like just wanting to hold a book they wrote in their hands. And while most self-published books are crap, there are gems, just like there's crap among commercially published books.

I can't get worked up over people who self-publish with their eyes open.

pianoman5 · Oct 3, 2005

When someone has done all the necessaries, i.e.

1) Written something for which there is an apparent market
2) Crafted and edited it with skill and love
3) Tested it on a knowledgeable and critical beta-readership
4) Come up with a good query/synopsis
5) Submitted the bejesus out of it for months/years
6) Demonstrated a level of patience and forbearance that would do credit to a saint
7) Has a three-digit pile of rejections slips offering little feedback and even less encouragement
8) Retained a modicum of self-esteem and clung onto a vestige of shattered confidence in their work, despite its failure to be picked up

- it's hard not to sympathise with their being eventually seduced by the 'easy' way out. I mean, sh*t, how much can a koala bear?

In more sensible fields of endeavour, W.C. Field's philosophy is recognised as sage advice: "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damned fool about it."

Sheryl Nantus · Oct 3, 2005

I think part of the problem lies with that darned Xerox commercial where the punk stands up in front of the class and exclaims that "Anyone can be published!" while the professor stands by in shock and dismay after delivering The Truth About Publishing.

granted, it was to promote the new Xerox machines that can collate, color, etc to the nth degree, but it's been taken to the extreme by those who don't want to really BE writers but play at one, as James M. has said before. They want to roleplay an author and instead of perfecting their craft and working at the discipline they take the "easy" way out and rush to Lulu.

of course self-pubs have a place, but from what I see at PublishAmerica and elsewhere there's more people "playing" at being authors than those serious about the craft - thus they rush to PA after a single rejection or bleat about no new authors being published and declare themselves to be "a writter writting stuff".

argh.

jmo, of course...

Lyra Jean · Oct 3, 2005

So what do you think of zines and the whole zine culture?

That's self publishing. Um, sort of.

Sheryl Nantus · Oct 4, 2005

are you talking fanfiction, then?

'cause that's another whole big lovely ball of wax...

Are people selling themselves short?

sassandgroove

Sassy haircut

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

Aconite

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

Valona

Honey Nut Loop

Valona

Aconite

sassandgroove

Sassy haircut

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

Aconite

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

Aconite

Tiaga

Watching

Honey Nut Loop

Valona

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

aadams73

A Work in Progress

scarletpeaches

Jamesaritchie

brinkett

Elder Scrolls devotee

pianoman5

Means well

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...