Has the publishing bar been lowered?

I think it's a very individual thing. More options doesn't change what I value. For me, I want to be published and won't be thrilled with 200 sales.

Are good books getting lost in the avalanche? No, I don't think so. I think more options might mean authors can't reply on the publisher for all publicity and may need to do some work on their end beyond handing over the finished manuscript. That might be a blog or a website, etc.

We get what we want. Think about McDonald's and all the sugary snacks in the grocery stores. They reflect a demand for convenient, delicious food. In the writing world, a lot of people are demanding to be published one way or another. So e-publishing and self-publishing allow them to do that. However, I don't think this really affects regular publishing. Agents are still picky (they have to be; look at all the submissions) and good books are still being put out there.

I'm more than a little tired of epublishing and self-publishing being lumped together in the same category.

And seeing the mixture of tenses in the thread title.

Times, they are a'changin'. I believe the dust will settle in time and the cream will once again rise to the top. Somehow, a new way to weed out bad books will arise and people will be able to hear about and get their hands on the good ones.

thothguard51 said:

Elle,

I totally understand what you are saying.

We have all heard the old saying in SYW, this is not ready, or sometimes we are told the book has no commercial appeal. Not every book ever written should or deserves to be published, or so we are told.

Of course, who am I to judge if another writers works should be published or not.

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Well if everyone's work was good enough to be published, there would be nothing special about those whose books get bound. Many books should just be written for personal use. If someone wants to pursue alternative publishing for themselves and maybe a small group of followers, that's fine with me.

People choose what kind of publishing the pursue and what kind of books they buy. I don't see how having other options infringes on the quality/specialness of mainstream commerical or literary-patronage publishing. There have always been newsletters, zines, and self-publishing. The only difference is that now 'poor' people are more and more able to do it too, not just nobleman swapping privately printed naughty stories or university poetry presses that don't need to be profitable.

I'm just looking out for myself. And what SP posted about e pubbing and self pubbing.

It may be easier to get e-books published, but I don't think that makes it a quagmire from which few escape. Or, at least, I don't think that there's anything about publishing e-books that makes it less likely that an author will 'graduate' to the big print publishing companies.

I've started in e-books, and I'm glad I did. I see so many authors on this board complaining about how hard it is to sit down and write, and how discouraged they are by the entire process. I'm the opposite. I've written five novels in my life, and four of them are being published. The fifth is currently submitted to two of the top romance e-pubs, and I'm confident that it will find a home. I've never been discouraged about my writing, because I've been publishing all along.

My writing is getting better. My first two books (they were a series) were all heart, but low on technique. My next two had better technique, but maybe not as much heart. My fifth book is definitely, in my opinion, my best so far, a good mix of discipline and emotion. The 'traditional' approach to writing, in which one agonizes over the first book for years, polishing and re-writing and submitting and going crazy, seems unnecessarily painful, and, as we see so often on these boards, often results in discouraged authors who realize that for all the pain, they still don't have something 'publishable' as an end result. I think I've learned as much from my five novels as others would have learned from one, and I've had the fun and rewards of publication, albeit on a smaller scale.

So, my ultimate goal is still to publish with the big print publishers, and I'm working towards that goal deliberately and consistently. But I'm having fun with e-publishing as I go. It doesn't seem like a quagmire to me. To me, slaving away over a hoped-to-be-masterpiece that ends up being unpublishable - THAT's the quagmire. I can't imagine working on my writing for years without getting any sort of professional feedback or financial validation, and then finding out that it had all been wasted time.

I won't get into self-publishing, but isn't e-publishing just another medium? Or are e-publishers more "lax" than print? I'm asking because I don't have experience with either as yet.

My personal goal is to get published by a 'reputable' publisher, whether that be e-pub or print. Sales figures - a dream I can't even imagine at this point...

... a book that sells 200 copies is still just as much of a book as one that sells 200,000 copies and I don't really see how the former is lowering the bar in any way. The author still had to write it, revise it, and submit it. I'd be thrilled to get a book published that sold 200 copies and was available either as an e-book or as a hard copy for sale in stores. And to be honest I'd be a bit miffed if someone came along and said that accomplishment wasn't really valuable and was lowering the bar. I don't think you meant it that way, but that's how it's sorta coming across.

shadowwalker said:

I won't get into self-publishing, but isn't e-publishing just another medium? Or are e-publishers more "lax" than print?

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A few epublishers have standards comparable to print publishers, but there are so many epublishers and the barriers to entry are so low that I don't trust anything that's been epublished only.

Ken said:

... a book that sells 200 copies is still just as much of a book as one that sells 200,000 copies and I don't really see how the former is lowering the bar in any way. The author still had to write it, revise it, and submit it. I'd be thrilled to get a book published that sold 200 copies and was available either as an e-book or as a hard copy for sale in stores. And to be honest I'd be a bit miffed if someone came along and said that accomplishment wasn't really valuable and was lowering the bar. I don't think you meant it that way, but that's how it's sorta coming across.

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Oy.

Harlan Ellison (who is a great big asshole and proud of it, but largely because he says things that are true but which will hurt people's feelings, often in the most assholeish way possible) has a whole spiel about this -- the writer who is so happy to be published that s/he will accept any terms, any payment, and declare him or herself happy with any sales, and thus undercuts every other writer out there.

If your book sells only 200 copies, there are two possibilities:

1. It's not as good as those books that actually sell in significant numbers.

2. You're that one in a million special snowflake who has written a heartbreaking work of staggering genius from which the fickle finger of fate has arbitrarily flicked away all notice and regard.

I moved you to Round Table.

If I had a choice between a publisher where a 'good' sales number is a thousand copies, or a publisher where a good sales number is twenty thousand copies, I'd chose the publisher who sells the bigger numbers. I think most authors would say the same.

So, since e-books traditionally sell smaller numbers, I don't think it's a leap to say that the established print publishers would be my choice, if I had one. Now, I'm writing in a niche market that doesn't really seem to exist with the larger publishers, as far as I know, so I don't have a choice. But when I write a more mass-market book, I would want it submitted to the larger print publishers first, before 'settling' for e-publication, if I had to.

That said, I'm proud of my e-published books, and am pleased to be building my career. I'm also having fun and meeting interesting people, so - it's all good.

With me, a book has to pass the same pre-read tests whether it's e-published or hot off the presses of the biggest conglomerate out there. Publication by a big house does not guarantee quality in my experience, nor does e-publication guarantee mediocrity.

People have been self-publishing and vanity publishing for years. It's easier and less expensive because of technology now, but it has since the dawn of publishing. There's never been anything "special" about publishing a book; the "special" part is when people read it and enjoy it.

And when you get paid, of course.

Ken said:

... a book that sells 200 copies is still just as much of a book as one that sells 200,000 copies and I don't really see how the former is lowering the bar in any way. The author still had to write it, revise it, and submit it.

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Not if it's self-published.

Ken said:

I'd be thrilled to get a book published that sold 200 copies and was available either as an e-book or as a hard copy for sale in stores.

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Which will be hard to accomplish if it's self-published.

Point being that self-publication, which has obviously become far far easier than it used to be, has done nothing I can see to the quality or quantity of standardly-published books. Self-publication has no "bar" to be lowered, or raised.

Standardly-published e-books may have altered the publication terrain a little, but so far not much that I can discern. E-readers like the Kindle have altered the mechanics of how people read, and no doubt will continue to do so. Exactly how this will affect the overall publication industry is in the early stages of being sorted out.

But self-publishing hasn't done doodly about that.

For me, the bar is set by professional editors with some number of years of experience in a paying market. I've been published by an epublisher and I still feel that selling my work to a larger, print publisher would be more validation of my skill.

I feel that there are good editors for epublishers, but the standards are not as high because the cost of production is not as high as a print publisher (one that pays an advance and royalties to the author, not one which the author pays to have his or her work published.) There are tons more epublished books coming out than print books so the editors don't have to be as picky, or they can publish work that is not acceptable to some of the print publishers (because of content or quality.) All that means is that some different level of subjectivity is being applied to the submissions they receive.

blacbird said:

Not if it's self-published.

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... agreed. That's why I didn't include that option in my post. Self-publishing is still okay though for those who go that route and are fully aware of all that does and does not entail.

Not everyone can write a bestseller or a book that a publshing house or e-publisher will pick up. It's a competitive industry and only the best of the best get signed. Time will tell if I have that ability myself. (I'm guessing not, based on past failures.)

But until I know for sure I am keeping all my options open. Having a book published by a legitamate venue that sells 200 copies would definitely be more than okay with me, as I said. Maybe that's not good enough for some, but it is for me and would be an accomplishment I'd be proud of.

Everyone needs to set their own goals, though.

I feel that there are good editors for epublishers, but the standards are not as high because the cost of production is not as high as a print publisher (one that pays an advance and royalties to the author, not one which the author pays to have his or her work published.) There are tons more epublished books coming out than print books so the editors don't have to be as picky, or they can publish work that is not acceptable to some of the print publishers (because of content or quality.) All that means is that some different level of subjectivity is being applied to the submissions they receive.

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And yet, many e-pubs still reject over 90% of what they receive. I don't think the quality is less (depending on the pub, obviously), but often they release more, so they can afford to accept more? That doesn't mean the quality is worse - print pub editors often say they love a book but there's no slot for it or whatever. And yes, some e-pubs take content that most print pubs don't. That too doesn't mean a reduction in quality - it means that with their business model they can afford to go after the niche markets more.

So, depending on pub, I don;t think because they release as e-book has any bearing on the quality (or needn't), especially as the market grows as it has recently. There are a lot of different factors here.

Now that's not to say I'd turn down a £50k advance that would see my books in Waterstone's...but some of the e-books I've read recently have been more enjoyable and of as high quality (in editing, story that engages me, sheer writing ability etc) as some of the big print pubs. More enjoyable in some cases, because they have content that is more like that I wish to read, and production-wise are on a par

Although the internet provides easy access for consumers, it has not changed one dynamic at all. Professional buyers of books still buy them the same way that they used to -- by checking reviews in things like LIBRARY JOURNAL. And professional buyers influence what we see in bookstores and libraries.

Any bookstore carefully chooses the books that goes on its shelves. Any library does the same thing. The fussiness of the choice is definitely influenced by the size of the institution, but choices are made. And this is where self-published writers and vanity press writers are failing to make a dent, absent some exceptions.

Reputable publishers know this. Reputable publishers know how to get their writers the opportunities for reviews. Good writers get those reviews. And those reviews move books into places like bookstores and libraries.

Ebooks can go viral, but how many have? Until there becomes a simple way for readers to find the good ebooks that are not published in mainstream fashion, they're not going to move much.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Nevermind.