Erotica vs. commercial fiction?

SafetyDance

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Prepare for waffle...

When is a novel that contains a fair few sex scenes classed as erotica? Is it because the sex is gratuitous? At what point does sexual description become gratuitous in the sense that it might further character development if not plot, and it might just be a really well written scene that's pleasurable to read?

I am tying myself in knots a bit trying to categorise my novel for queries. I posted on the Interstices forum and the very lovely Stacia Kane suggested commercial fiction, but I've spent the past few days reading agent blogs/sites and now I'm not sure. I hate the idea of something being tossed aside because it's "porn."

The story is first person and character driven. It's first person and does not show any male POV. There's a lot of sex particularly in the first chapters (which I think might skew an agent's view when they get that three chapter sample) but I can't remove any because it's all there to set up the plot for the rest of the book -- where there is less sex and a lot more narrative/dialogue. I could tone the sex down -- it's quite graphic -- but it wouldn't be true to the character.

When I look at erotic publishing sites, I'm not sure the story "fits." I don't mean that in a look-down-my-nose way (hey, the novel started on Literotica, lol) but something doesn't gel. The plot doesn't work in the same way -- the heroine ends up with the "bad" guy (although I would refer to him personally as the "grey" guy). She's also not much of a Mary Sue and certainly has her flaws. She is not a girl's girl. (It's linked in my sig if anyone's interested).

I suppose what I'm asking is, does a book with a lot of sex = erotica?

One thing that occurrs to me is that a lot of erotica sites don't want to see incest/knife play, both of which the novel has elements of (although it's no-hurt knife play and the incest is "pretend"). I've seen commercial fiction that gets away with those. I'm not about to edit it out, so should I go commercial for these reasons, perhaps?

All help greatly appreciated!
 
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Prepare for waffle...
Waffle is good. :D
When is a novel that contains a fair few sex scenes classed as erotica? Is it because the sex is gratuitous?
I should bloody hope not. I write erotica and none of the sex scenes are gratuitous.
At what point does sexual description become gratuitous in the sense that it might further character development if not plot, and it might just be a really well written scene that's pleasurable to read?
This might seem like a cop-out answer, but no scene in your novel should be gratuitous. It shouldn't be there unless it either:
  • Reveals character, or
  • Advances plot.
The best scenes do both. If any scene does neither, get rid.
I hate the idea of something being tossed aside because it's "porn."
So would I, but that's a whole other done-to-death matter; AW will never reach agreement on that one.
When I look at erotic publishing sites, I'm not sure the story "fits." I don't mean that in a look-down-my-nose way (hey, the novel started on Literotica, lol) but something doesn't gel. The plot doesn't work in the same way -- the heroine ends up with the "bad" guy (although I would refer to him personally as the "grey" guy).
Maybe it's erotica, rather than erotic romance? Of course, without reading it, I'm not qualified to say.
She's also not much of a Mary Sue and certainly has her flaws. She is not a girl's girl. (It's linked in my sig if anyone's interested).
Certainly doesn't stop it being erotic romance, in my book.
I suppose what I'm asking is, does a book with a lot of sex = erotica?
Not necessarily. Is the intent to arouse the reader, or show how aroused the characters are? It really depends on your motivation as a writer, what effect you're going for.
One thing that occurrs to me is that a lot of erotica sites don't want to see incest/knife play, both of which the novel has elements of (although it's no-hurt knife play and the incest is "pretend"). I've seen commercial fiction that gets away with those. I'm not about to edit it out, so should I go commercial for these reasons, perhaps?

All help greatly appreciated!
If the incest is 'pretend', you could probably get away with it. As for knife play, well...again, cop-out answer. Not sure without reading it.

Sorry - I'm not much help, am I?
 

ChaosTitan

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Hi Firebrain - I don't have any answers to your commercial vs. erotica questions, but I do have a comment. If the book you intend to submit to agents is the same book posted in its entirety on Literotica, remove it immediately. You don't want fiction that you intend to submit available for free to the world at large.
 

SafetyDance

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Hi Firebrain - I don't have any answers to your commercial vs. erotica questions, but I do have a comment. If the book you intend to submit to agents is the same book posted in its entirety on Literotica, remove it immediately. You don't want fiction that you intend to submit available for free to the world at large.

This was my initial thought, but then:

a) A large amount of Literotica fiction is now being published (some of it remains onsite despite the fact that it's in print/ebook format; no idea why that is).This is the case for a lot of blogs that are published too.
b) I would think the exposure, since it is relatively small, is a good thing.
c) I'm not going to remove it unless I absolutely have to -- I have people who enjoy reading it and there's a 90% chance, as with any book, that it won't sell. I'd loose a lot of feedback and that is important to me. I would also like the feedback to be available for agents to see (assuming they might; I've no idea) because it's not all "thanks for the erection!" -- people have left essays on my later chapters and I think that speaks volumes for my work.



scarletpeaches -- yeah, no help at all :p Lol, thank you for your thoughts :) The whole "gratuitous" argument gets me, too.
 

ChaosTitan

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This was my initial thought, but then:

a) A large amount of Literotica fiction is now being published (some of it remains onsite despite the fact that it's in print/ebook format; no idea why that is).This is the case for a lot of blogs that are published too.
b) I would think the exposure, since it is relatively small, is a good thing.
c) I'm not going to remove it unless I absolutely have to -- I have people who enjoy reading it and there's a 90% chance, as with any book, that it won't sell. I'd loose a lot of feedback and that is important to me. I would also like the feedback to be available for agents to see (assuming they might; I've no idea) because it's not all "thanks for the erection!" -- people have left essays on my later chapters and I think that speaks volumes for my work.



scarletpeaches -- yeah, no help at all :p Lol, thank you for your thoughts :) The whole "gratuitous" argument gets me, too.

a) I can't speak to what is or isn't being published from Literotica (or what presses are publishing it). But as a reader, the vast majority of what I've read on Literotica is...well, not good. And nowhere near publishable material. Having a novel that you're presenting to agents associated with the site is not necessarily going to be a check in the positive column for you.
b) Exposure is posting a handful of chapters on your website or blog, or establishing an online presence, not offering the entire book for free. Because Literotica is not password protected, some might argue that you've already used up your digital rights.
c) You're right, there is a chance that no matter what you do, the book won't sell. But I also can't imagine that an agent is going to hear "it's posted for free, in its entirety, on a website that anyone can access" and think it's a good idea. It's likely to earn you an auto-rejection.

But good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 

SafetyDance

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a) I can't speak to what is or isn't being published from Literotica (or what presses are publishing it). But as a reader, the vast majority of what I've read on Literotica is...well, not good. And nowhere near publishable material. Having a novel that you're presenting to agents associated with the site is not necessarily going to be a check in the positive column for you.
b) Exposure is posting a handful of chapters on your website or blog, or establishing an online presence, not offering the entire book for free. Because Literotica is not password protected, some might argue that you've already used up your digital rights.
c) You're right, there is a chance that no matter what you do, the book won't sell. But I also can't imagine that an agent is going to hear "it's posted for free, in its entirety, on a website that anyone can access" and think it's a good idea. It's likely to earn you an auto-rejection.

But good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Oh no, I agree with you -- a lot of it is quite awful. I have wondered whether I ought to mention it first off, but then it's been up there for a little while now (the last chapter went up two months ago) so I can't escape the fact. Even if I take it down now, it was still there to begin with; would it make a difference if I took it down?

Lit does state that you retain all rights to your work.
 
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If it were me, I wouldn't put anything I was planning to sub on the 'tubes in the first place. Even with SYW, here, I delete random scenes and chapters I've posted once I start the editing/submission process.

But I'd take your book down now. Like...yesterday.
 

SafetyDance

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I honestly never even thought about publishing that novel until it was almost done. I didn't think it was good enough/sellable. The first chapter started as an experiment while I wrote other projects, and it carried on from there.

Anyway, I will think on taking it down.
 

dangerousbill

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Prepare for waffle...

When is a novel that contains a fair few sex scenes classed as erotica?

There appears to be no breaking point. My favorite example is Walter Mosley's 'Killing Johnny Fry', which features multiple sex scenes involving cuckolding and voyeurism described in microscopic detail. But since the publisher labeled it 'literary' rather than 'erotica', it's considered mainstream. (Even though it's subtitled 'a sexistential novel'.)

I found it on our local library shelves, which never would have bought the same novel if it had been labeled 'Explicit, 18+, warning: scenes of perversion, rivers of semen, infidelity, sexual violence."
 

SafetyDance

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I remember you mentioning that before, Bill.

Right. I am submitting "remove" requests now (will take a few days). This is horrible, lol...I feel like I'm tucking the novel away in a drawer to gather dust. Nobody will find it until I die [weeps melodramatically into pillow]
 

dangerousbill

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Right. I am submitting "remove" requests now (will take a few days). This is horrible, lol...I feel like I'm tucking the novel away in a drawer to gather dust. Nobody will find it until I die [weeps melodramatically into pillow]

Truthfully, that's possible. First, a novel has be good. But that's not enough; it has to be lucky, too--very lucky.

I look at some of the top scorers on authonomy.com, and see what great novels some of them are, but HarperCollins only selects a tiny handful from the 1000s for 'further consideration'. It's a powerful demonstration of just how long the odds are.

So why remove it? If you find a publisher, then take it down. You wouldn't be the first to do it that way.

I first took notice of it as a result of this exchange, and I've started reading it.
 

SafetyDance

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Truthfully, that's possible. First, a novel has be good. But that's not enough; it has to be lucky, too--very lucky.

I look at some of the top scorers on authonomy.com, and see what great novels some of them are, but HarperCollins only selects a tiny handful from the 1000s for 'further consideration'. It's a powerful demonstration of just how long the odds are.

So why remove it? If you find a publisher, then take it down. You wouldn't be the first to do it that way.

I first took notice of it as a result of this exchange, and I've started reading it.

Please bear in mind that it's a rough draft on there, lol (well, rougher than the finished version). But thank you for having a look! You'll have to let me know what you think.
 
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No publisher of any repute would touch it if it had been published elsewhere; certainly not if it was still openly available. Bang go your first rights.

Even though SYW here is password-protected, like I said, I take everything down before I sub.
 

SafetyDance

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No publisher of any repute would touch it if it had been published elsewhere; certainly not if it was still openly available. Bang go your first rights.

Even though SYW here is password-protected, like I said, I take everything down before I sub.

So how do published blogs work? Or published Twitter accounts, even, like shitmydadsays? Or self-pubbed books like Eragon? (They might be incredibly lucky, but they've still happened). What if the version that appeared online isn't the same as the one you're submitting?

I can't see how I have given away my rights to my work if the site states that I retain them, and one of Lit's authors is one of the top-selling erotica authors on Kindle. Hasn't done her any harm.
 

sailor

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In my limited experience, it isn't what your definition of published is, but what the company you are submitting your work to says, their definition. I've submitted short stories to varied erotica and adult websites. Some state that if the story has been posted on your own blog or website, that's okay but not on a free erotica site. Others say that it's been published regardless. You still have the rights but what they would be purchasing would be 2nd publication rights, which lowers the price. Different meanings for 'previously published'. For novels it could be totally different.

As I said, my experience is limited so I could be way out to lunch.
 

Maryn

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My experience mirrors sailor's, except that I had lunch at home.

Some publishers are going to consider it published if it's been online, or texted, tweeted, read aloud at a coffee house,, in anything resembling its present form at any site or in any way open to the public.

Others make various exceptions for blogs, personal websites, whatever. They all excuse academic classes and password-protected critique forums or sites.

A very few don't care.

But the contracts I've signed when I sold something in the last few years include a clause in which I confirm that my story has not been published or made public in any way, including online. If it had and I signed that, I'd be committing fraud.

So do tread carefully, okay?

Maryn, who needs retreading
 

SafetyDance

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Thanks both. I understand that it's considered published. I am mentioning Lit on my queries anyway -- because of it, I have a lot of information regarding my demographic etc. I'm just confused as to whether "published" is akin to giving away first rights, assuming that I retain copyright.
 

Maryn

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My understanding--and I'm a lowly writer, not a lawyer or publisher--is that published equals using up first rights. Some publications or epubs will gladly buy second rights, and others will not consider it. Of course, you can sell those second rights only if you retain copyright.

Maryn, muddying the water just enough for patty-cake
 

SafetyDance

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Fair enough :)

Well, I'm going to keep querying it anyway. Nothing to lose but some email time. I can be candid about it being on Lit and its reasons for starting life there; I'm not ashamed of it. I can, as I also said, talk about the readership and feedback that I had -- it has already been very useful to me.
 

Brindle Chase

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Just to concur with most here... Most of my publishers won't even consider something left on Literotica or any free site, where anyone can grab a copy. Why would they? How can they compete against the author giving it away for free?

Anywho, they are also not impressed by my own Literotica stats. I have a free read out there... over 50,000 downloads last I checked months ago. It means nothing. Free is free. Add a dollar to the price tag and those statistics change DRAMATICALLY. Publishers know this, and put very little, if any stock in free site statistics. Eragon succeeded because his parents had a lot of money to spend on advertising his book. I wouldn't even use his success as a model here.
 

SafetyDance

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Just to concur with most here... Most of my publishers won't even consider something left on Literotica or any free site, where anyone can grab a copy. Why would they? How can they compete against the author giving it away for free?

Anywho, they are also not impressed by my own Literotica stats. I have a free read out there... over 50,000 downloads last I checked months ago. It means nothing. Free is free. Add a dollar to the price tag and those statistics change DRAMATICALLY. Publishers know this, and put very little, if any stock in free site statistics. Eragon succeeded because his parents had a lot of money to spend on advertising his book. I wouldn't even use his success as a model here.

I wouldn't leave it on there if I found an agent/publisher, of course. My confusion is over it being on there at all, and whether it makes a difference that it would be an earlier version of the work etc :)

It's useful to know what they are bothered about though.
 
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It's not a matter of taking it down if/when you find a publisher. You won't get one if your book's already available - for free - on the internet.

Bottom line is, a publisher expects to make money from what you write, and they won't if readers can pick it up elsewhere at no cost.

And as Maryn has already mentioned, there are legal implications here. If you offer first rights, you could be committing fraud.
 

veinglory

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You have used first rights the first time you make a work available in full. It will narrow your options considerably. Publishers don't buy copyright, they buy publishing rights in certain formats, certain geographical zones and for a certain period of time. International digital rights are now an importantpart of what makes a book profitable, so having exploited that for some period does lower the value of a manuscript to the publisher.

As to whether something is erotica or mainstream, it can be either, neither or both these days.
 

SafetyDance

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Ah well. Not much I can do about it now other than not do it again!