I'll love you forever...no really.

Sai · Sep 12, 2010

In this forum we've had various discussions about immortals, but there's one issue in particular I'd like to hear AWers sound off on. So I've got a couple of immortal characters who are an actual couple, and have been together for a loooong time, like hundreds of years. It has occurred to me that there might be people who read my novel and question whether any relationship could last that long. I mean, something like half of marriages end in divorce, and that's just within a normal, mortal lifetime. What chance does a romance have when you stretch it out over a several lifetimes?

Personally, I think it can work (and not just because I'd have to re-wire a huge chunk of my WIP if it didn't). I think it boils down to the specifics of the characters and the relationship. For example, one half of the pair is dyed-in-the wool romantic. He not only loves the woman he's with, but he loves the idea of being in love, and he loves the idea of a love that spans a century. On her end, she might not return his feelings with equal vigor (there's always one person who loves more), but she's flattered and she really does love the guy. So they make it work. Also, they're each others best chance of raising an undead army and taking over heaven, earth and hell, so they're kind of tied together in that way as well (did I mention they're the bad guys?).

But what about you? Does it take you out of a book when a character has the same feelings for someone that she did a millennium ago? Does it seem even remotely possible that a relationship can stand the test of time, even when 'time' means hundreds of years? While I admit to being a bit of a romantic as well, I can still see why people would be skeptical of such a long-long-long lasting romance. However, I like to think that with good writing even the most cynical reader might give the immortal lovebirds a pass. What do you think?

MissMacchiato · Sep 12, 2010

I think it would come to the point where they couldn't remember not being together any more. Think of it - who else will have seen what you have seen, experienced what you've experienced? Surely a couple together for so long will have an unbelievable bond.

I guess that's how I see it. I would like to think it's possible to love someone forever, but seriously, it's more of a fantasy that readers want to believe. Who cares if it's true, or possible, or likely? We want it to be true, so we will believe what the writers says.

At least, that is what I'm hoping with my current WIP! I want them to believe in the love of my main characters!

RainyDayNinja · Sep 12, 2010

Sai said:
Does it take you out of a book when a character has the same feelings for someone that she did a millennium ago?

I think this is the important point. I would be willing to accept that a couple who has been together for hundreds of years would still love each other. But I wouldn't believe for a second that they still had the same feelings.

WritingDemons · Sep 12, 2010

I have to point out that in a lot of religions, marriage continues after death. So, going on that belief (not saying you have to, just pointing out that exists) then a centuries old love is perfectly conceivable.

I agree with Rainy, though. Feelings change and evolve, as do the people who feel them. It's rare to find a couple acting on their 50th anniversary as they do when they're first married. They might love each just as much, but they probably express it in different ways.

leahzero · Sep 12, 2010

MissMacchiato said:
I think it would come to the point where they couldn't remember not being together any more. Think of it - who else will have seen what you have seen, experienced what you've experienced? Surely a couple together for so long will have an unbelievable bond.

That's a sharp insight. I don't read much fiction with immortal characters, but it reminds me of Anne Rice's vampires--immortals who sometimes try to re-integrate with society, but feel alienated because they have so little in common with any mortal aside from the passing ideas and fashions of a given century.

It stands to reason that immortal characters would find themselves drawn together, for better or worse, as the centuries wear on, because they'll become increasingly isolated from the people of the present day.

Shared experiences are a vital part of what draws people together.

defcon6000 · Sep 13, 2010

did I mention they're the bad guys?)

BAM! Right there. I'm not sure what your bad guys are like, but from the way you described their domination scheme, I'd assume they have very little empathy. Now if they have very little empathy for the world, it's hard to imagine they'd scrounge up enough for another being. And you can see where this is going, you can't have a long term relationship if both partners are sociopaths.

Now if they both got a vendetta against the world and want revenge, I could see them joining forces and that their common interest in world domination brings them together. But such a relationship would be shallow and who's to say one of them won't stab the other in the back so they can be the sole ruler of the world.

If they were the protagonists (and assuming they have empathy) I wouldn't have a problem, but as bad guys... :e2shrug:

Tasmin21 · Sep 13, 2010

If you can, find a movie called Razor Blade Smile. Netflix has it. It's a vampire movie, and for being not-known-at-all, it's actually really good. It pertains to your question due to the twist at the very end, which I'll put in spoiler script so that I don't mess it up for anyone who actually wants to watch the movie.

Spoiler: The movie revolves around this female vampire, and what we assume is a much older male vampire who is trying to have her killed. He sends human assassins, younger vampires, the mortal police, etc. At the end, it culminates in her invading his mansion, pretty much killing everyone in the place, and then having the big sword duel with the male vampire. Just as she's about to strike the killing blow, he looks up at her and grins and says "Well, you got good, didn't you?" And she drops her sword and laughs. It's all been a game they've been playing, they've been lovers for centuries, and this is how they have fun and keep the relationship fresh. Excellent movie.

MissMacchiato · Sep 13, 2010

Tasmin that sounds like such a fun movie! awesome!

ChaosTitan · Sep 13, 2010

I pretty much agree with Leah Raeder and MissMachiato's insights.

But I also wanted to comment on this:

Sai said:
I mean, something like half of marriages end in divorce, and that's just within a normal, mortal lifetime.

If you're writing about immortal beings who've been around for a thousand years, you have to remember to drop the modern-day mindset when it comes to characterization. High divorce rates are a very modern occurrence. Even a hundred years ago, divorce rates were much, much smaller.

People married for a variety of reasons hundreds of years ago - convenience, money, trading off debts, social status, bearing children, etc... So why did your immortals marry?

Who they are now should be wildly different from who they were when they met.

WritingDemons · Sep 13, 2010

defcon6000 said:
BAM! Right there. I'm not sure what your bad guys are like, but from the way you described their domination scheme, I'd assume they have very little empathy. Now if they have very little empathy for the world, it's hard to imagine they'd scrounge up enough for another being. And you can see where this is going, you can't have a long term relationship if both partners are sociopaths....

World domination does not equal lack of empathy. Satan started a war in heaven because he wanted the world to be different. He didn't do it because he hated free will, hated the idea of people doing what they want. He did it because he loved so much that he couldn't bear the idea of them having to suffer evil. (Which is ironic, because, you know, he BECAME the source of evil.)

Or that's how I read it.

Frankly, I think have the bad guys so in love gives them a human quality, which is important for villains. Remember: the villain is the hero of his/her own story. If they're not fleshed out, realistic characters with believable thoughts and feelings, then they're just evil for the sake of evil, and not convincing at all. One of the scariest villains ever is Hannibal Lector, and one of the things that made him so frightening was that he was capable of such horrible things, but he was still human.

/end lecture

Fame<Infamy · Sep 13, 2010

High divorce rates aren't even modern, they're totally cultural. There are some cultures where it just doesn't happen in this day and age.

defcon6000 · Sep 13, 2010

WritingDemons said:
World domination does not equal lack of empathy. Satan started a war in heaven because he wanted the world to be different. He didn't do it because he hated free will, hated the idea of people doing what they want. He did it because he loved so much that he couldn't bear the idea of them having to suffer evil. (Which is ironic, because, you know, he BECAME the source of evil.)

Or that's how I read it.

Partly true, but you forgot that he was defying God. God wasn't going to put up with that and sent him and his pals to hell. Although I think God had planned for all that to go down. But anyways, it had nothing to do with love, Satan was just being stubborn.

Frankly, I think have the bad guys so in love gives them a human quality, which is important for villains. Remember: the villain is the hero of his/her own story. If they're not fleshed out, realistic characters with believable thoughts and feelings, then they're just evil for the sake of evil, and not convincing at all. One of the scariest villains ever is Hannibal Lector, and one of the things that made him so frightening was that he was capable of such horrible things, but he was still human.

/end lecture

They didn't sound like humans to me. How many people do you know want to raise an army of undead and take over the world? Yeah, I know this is fantasy, but if someone is so selfish to do that, I have a hard time believing they could love someone. Exception would be their mom, assuming they weren't abused. Of course it is easy to sacrifice millions of people you don't know, but if you had any conscience whatsoever, it would weigh in. And yes, Hannibal is a human, but he's also a sociopath. He plays with people like they're tools.

Keslie Neill · Sep 13, 2010

They didn't sound like humans to me. How many people do you know want to raise an army of undead and take over the world? Yeah, I know this is fantasy, but if someone is so selfish to do that, I have a hard time believing they could love someone.

You can always ask the question why are they taking over the world? Are they well-intentioned extremist? If so they could be a little more human.

Anyways I say go for it, they sound like interesting characters.

WritingDemons · Sep 13, 2010

Def - I can see your point about Satan, but that was merely the end result. The cause was his love for the people. And God is ineffable, so who knows whether the whole she-bang was intentional or not.

I still stand firm that even evil villains are capable of compassion, love, and empathy. Just because they're self-absorbed and selfish doesn't make them incapable of the emotions.

Then again, maybe that's just me. *shrug*

LynnKHollander · Sep 14, 2010

My immortal characters are more into lasting friendships with occasional bouts of passion. Friends for ever, but with the once-in-a-while-weekend together. Mortals are another story.

defcon6000 · Sep 15, 2010

WritingDemons said:
I still stand firm that even evil villains are capable of compassion, love, and empathy. Just because they're self-absorbed and selfish doesn't make them incapable of the emotions.

Then again, maybe that's just me. *shrug*

And that's fine. I'm just being psychoanalytically nit-picky.

(Don't mind me)

It's fine for one person to be selfish and bent on taking over the world, but then stick that person in a relationship and things get complicated. I guess what you have to ask is: Who would you want to spend the rest of your life with?

It's not just about the passion, there has to be trust and commitment. Can you trust a bad guy? Can the bad guy take time out of his evil plotting to spend time with his/her sweet heart? If they're both bad guys and they're both plotting then that's cool, they have a common interest, but as I pointed out before that's a shallow reason to be with someone for eternity; it can work for a fling but long-term relationships need a lot more going for them. Perhaps in all those hundreds of years they found something in one another to love - but then I think: "Oh wait, they wanna take over everything, you can't be too loving to do that." I guess that's where my issue lies is how do bad guys that can (intentionally) do despicable things love another or be loved themselves? Eh, I suppose that's a topic for another time.

*note* - the above isn't directed at you WD, I'm just thinking out loud... or rather thinking on the forum. :tongue

WritingDemons · Sep 15, 2010

No worries, Def. I can see your point, and I can even agree with it. I guess I have a higher suspension of disbelief tolerance when it comes to sappy romantic stuff.

Thump · Sep 15, 2010

Villainness does not mean the characters cannot experience love and empathy for someone else. There have been cases of criminal couples, murderers, who worked together and were madly in love with each other.

I would find a couple that's been together for centuries and were still feeling the same way about each other unbelievable. I would imagine their bond being less passionate but deeper and steadier. They would have to have found ways to get over the boredom that naturally occurs during long relationships. After centuries together, I would imagine trust is not an issue, maybe they take breaks from each other, go off to do their own thing for a few years secure in the knowledge that they are each other's number 1 and will always return?

But yeah, their relationship needs to have gone through changes and always be doing something.

AnnieColleen · Sep 15, 2010

MissMacchiato said:
I think it would come to the point where they couldn't remember not being together any more.

This. For comparison - my grandfather died last year, after ~60 years of marriage. One of the biggest things my grandmother talks about now is how weird it is to be alone in her house, she doesn't like being alone, she wants someone else in the house. Obviously this depends a lot on personalities and such, but I'd find it completely believable if the characters felt that this is how things always are, always have been, and splitting up just becomes inconceivable to them.

Adobedragon · Sep 15, 2010

I don't see villainy as something that precludes the ability to love. But I'm fond of more nuanced, gray characterization, rather than black/white, good vs. evil. (I love the TV series "Dexter.") An antagonist may believe that his/her actions are the right thing to do. I.e., the end justifying the means. And those actions may well be driven by fierce emotions.

Can the bad guy take time out of his evil plotting to spend time with his/her sweet heart?

Heh. Well, you could say the same thing about a good guy/girl. Saving the world takes a lot of time. Ask anyone who's married to a modern day hero[ine]--doctor, cop, firefighter or soldier. The issue there isn't the characters', uh, orientation, good or evil, but rather their ability to manage their priorities.

As for relationships that span centuries, I operate on the assumption that immortal beings are likely drawn to others for reasons that transcend sexual attraction. With vampires for example, the sexual, particularly the reproductive aspect, is absent. Or minimal. So as someone noted above, the relationship is driven more by shared experiences, commonalities, etc. And I seen such a relationship as being more flexible and able to stand the test of time.

Charis · Sep 16, 2010

I'm actually a little surprised at the argument against villains being able to hold centuries-long loves. Why not? Not many people, hardy anyone, actually sees themselves as the villain. Who wakes up in the morning and says, "Well, I'm going to go out and do the wrong thing today for no reason." It's true, there are sociopaths and people who are cruel for no reason. But there are also people who are just on the opposite side of the argument, and they are perfectly capable of being in love.

Even Hitler, the villain to end all villains, had Eva Braun. What they had wasn't perfect, but you could still say they might have been in love.

Anyways, back to the actual topic, what type of immortality are we talking? Are we talking faerie immortality, where there's elves that live thousands of years as young children, then thousands of years as adults, so on and so forth. Then that's a different story. A big part of love for me is not only being with someone, but being with someone as you both grow older and face the challenges of those changes.

But maybe we're talking immortals as in 'I am a 23 year old and I will be that way forever, until the end of time' then that's a little different. That's a whole new set of knots, with trying to keep things exciting or the like.

Me, I'm also interested in how authors handle relationships between immortals and mortals. It always casts a pallor over the romance, doesn't it, when the elemental princess will live forever and ever, but someday her brave young human man will wither away and die. I managed to wriggle out of it with some patch lore for my hamadryad, but what does everyone else do?

MissMacchiato · Sep 16, 2010

Adobedragon said:
IWith vampires for example, the sexual, particularly the reproductive aspect, is absent. Or minimal. So as someone noted above, the relationship is driven more by shared experiences, commonalities, etc. And I seen such a relationship as being more flexible and able to stand the test of time.

I agree with everything you've said but I would say the sexuality in a vamp relationship is often an extremely important lure. Feeding and sexuality often go hand in hand - the ability to give yourself to the other in a way wholly removed from anything mortal during sex must be pretty hardcore - and it must form a bond unlike anything mortal as well. that's just my 0.02, but
I guess it depends on your view of vampires, but it's interesting that so frequently, the sexuality of a vamp relationship is really played up within novels. Mostly 'cos it's hot. But still

Charis - in my books, the immortal princess would be able to turn the handsome young hero immortal as well. Hur, nice easy solution, but I love me a HEA!

defcon6000 · Sep 16, 2010

Adobedragon said:
I don't see villainy as something that precludes the ability to love. But I'm fond of more nuanced, gray characterization, rather than black/white, good vs. evil. (I love the TV series "Dexter.") An antagonist may believe that his/her actions are the right thing to do. I.e., the end justifying the means. And those actions may well be driven by fierce emotions.

Yeah, I wouldn't count morally grey characters or moral relativism. But world domination isn't a nice thing no matter what way you look at it.

Heh. Well, you could say the same thing about a good guy/girl. Saving the world takes a lot of time. Ask anyone who's married to a modern day hero[ine]--doctor, cop, firefighter or soldier. The issue there isn't the characters', uh, orientation, good or evil, but rather their ability to manage their priorities.

Tis true, I hadn't thought of that. Good guys probably have a hard time with that aspect of a relationship too.

Charis said:
I'm actually a little surprised at the argument against villains being able to hold centuries-long loves. Why not? Not many people, hardy anyone, actually sees themselves as the villain. Who wakes up in the morning and says, "Well, I'm going to go out and do the wrong thing today for no reason." It's true, there are sociopaths and people who are cruel for no reason. But there are also people who are just on the opposite side of the argument, and they are perfectly capable of being in love.

Even Hitler, the villain to end all villains, had Eva Braun. What they had wasn't perfect, but you could still say they might have been in love.

I'm just thinking of the aspects of the villain, especially one who wants to take over the world. They must be very selfish, and I know you can't have much of a relationship with a selfish person (unless the other person is co-dependent). If they are sociopaths, then they have a complete lack of empathy; they can't connect to others nor can they understand other people's feelings.

In Hitler's case, I see Eva Braun as his pet. He didn't even marry her until just before they died, not sure why wait till the last minute to make that commitment. Perhaps he did love her, but we'll never know because he never made it known.

Lhun · Sep 18, 2010

defcon6000 said:
I'm just thinking of the aspects of the villain, especially one who wants to take over the world. They must be very selfish,<snip>

Nah not really. There are plenty of motives for villains, even plenty of motives to try and take over the world, not all of them need to be grounded in megalomania (Though megalomaniacs certainly are better at laughing). Heck, there have been villains written who try to destroy the world for the good of everyone, and if you can make that believable, or at least make it believable that the villain actually believes it, writing a villain who tries to take over the world because he thinks it's necessary or even altruistic should be a walk in the park.

In Hitler's case, I see Eva Braun as his pet. He didn't even marry her until just before they died, not sure why wait till the last minute to make that commitment. Perhaps he did love her, but we'll never know because he never made it known.

It's been theorized that actually believed in his own racial purity crap so much that he didn't want to procreate. That'd be a plausible reason not to get married. (Marrying without having children wouldn't fit into Nazi ideology either)

Michael · Sep 18, 2010

I actually like the idea and think I'd find the characters interesting.

But, WritingDemons ... Lucifer loved the people? Really? My take on it was that he was jealous that God loved humans more than angels, which is very, very different. Am I missing something?

I'll love you forever...no really.

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