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ANNIE
09-18-2005, 03:20 AM
What type of helicopter would a goverment official fly in (CIA)
for a search/ rescue type of mission- also what branch of the goverment would they use? Marines, Airforce, ???

Thanks Annie:Shrug:

Rabe
09-18-2005, 11:39 AM
What type of helicopter would a goverment official fly in (CIA)
for a search/ rescue type of mission- also what branch of the goverment would they use? Marines, Airforce, ???
Thanks Annie:Shrug:

No offense, Annie, but I'm not sure why you put 'police' in your subject thread for this. BUT...should you have police questions, feel free to PM me. I'll try to help as best I can.

(as for this one, I can't help. For one, the variables are too open for me to narrow it down...and two, while I can visualize the chopters I'm thinking about, I don't know the actual names of them!)

But, worry not, soon someone will come along and give you more information than you'll ever be able to comprehend!

Rabe...

RumBucuresti
09-18-2005, 11:05 PM
would depend on many circumstances Annie. For example, overt/covert operation? Helicopter based on ship or land? The fact its the CIA involved in your enquiry actually gives you enormous leeway in choosing a helicopter.

ANNIE
09-19-2005, 01:39 AM
Thanks guys, I'll try to clarify. it would be a CIA director with a personal interest looking for a missing agent in a down plane he was taking for a test flight.

It would be covert and in nuetral territory.

Sorry about the police reference, its hard to ask when you know very little about the topic. as some police are ex-military I thought I would throw it in.
sorry about the confusion.:)
I guess I just need the name of the chopter- Blackhawk, Hewy(sp), Chinook, I'm not sure which if any would be appropriate and as the CIA has access to all military branches(I think), Which would he use?

Annie

rickdemille
09-19-2005, 04:27 AM
Heilicopters are designated by group:

0H-58 Kiowa - Observation Helicopter
AH-64 Apache - Attack Helicopter
UH-60 Black Hawk - Utility Helicopter
CH-47 Chinook - Cargo Helicopter

The Marine corps uses (at least while I was in) different big birds, UH46 Sea Knight and CH-53 Sea Stallion. There are also some oder ones, Super Cobra and probably others, still hanging around.

The upgreaded CH-47 is said to be fastest, but it's a noisy bugger, I've heard of dead people angrily peeking out of their coffins to watch them fly by.

Depending on how many people it would be the Kiowa or Black Hawk, with the Black Hawk being what I believe is the preferred craft because of weight and passenger capacity. A spook story using a Black Hawk would draw no criticism.


Here are some links:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/oh-58.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/uh-60.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/h-47.htm

I hope this helps,

Rick

ANNIE
09-19-2005, 04:39 AM
Rick, Thanks that helps a lot! thanks for the links

Annie

rich
09-19-2005, 04:57 AM
I notice that a lot of questions asked here in a number of topics would be questions I'd find out for myself before I'd hit the keyboard. I probably would ask questions when my research hit a wall--like certain insights, personal experiences or facts that can't be extracted from what I could gather.

ANNIE
09-19-2005, 05:09 AM
Rick I agree, and did try to research my answers but different lives lead to different feilds of expertise.

I have zippo military experience and know nothing about helicopters except what I have read or heard, I tried get my information via google, but apparently wasn't asking the right questions and even then the specifics of my questions would not be in a google search. That is what makes AW such a great place. There is always an expert on hand to help you find what you need.

Sorry if you thought I was being lazy, I suppose in a way I was, but it was difficult to any further in the plot without the info and I was frustrated that my searches weren't getting me my answers.

rickdemille
09-19-2005, 05:29 AM
Rick, Thanks that helps a lot! thanks for the links

Annie

I know it's hard to find info when you have no real experience and don't know where to start. Kind of like if I was trying to find out about good manners.

Best of luck with your project,

Rick

ANNIE
09-19-2005, 06:15 AM
I know it's hard to find info when you have no real experience and don't know where to start. Kind of like if I was trying to find out about good manners.

Best of luck with your project,

Rick

LOL! BTW my last post was supposed to have been directed to Rich, sorry about that and thanks again for your help it was exactly what I was looking for.
Annie

rich
09-19-2005, 10:58 PM
Perhaps, Annie, you might try a story where your own knowledge and experience can be of more help to you.

LaViers
09-24-2005, 11:32 AM
There are a few other things you may want to consider (if you are still working on this piece).

If the chopper is piloted by the Army, 9 out of 10 the pilot and co-pilot will be warrant officers. You have about two branch officers being picked up to be a pilot every year, compared to the 30 to 40 warrants that graduate every month or so. If you are running a Huey (old) or Blackhawk (replaced (or replacing) the Huey) you will also have a crew chief. The crew chief will also be anywhere from a specialist (SPC) to staff sgt (SSG), although they can go several grades in either direction. These crew chiefs are very good at what they do, and good at the little details of what they do.



Pilots. The Branch Officers are referred to as Sir, and can range from 2nd Lieutenant (2LT) to Captain (CPT). The warrants are another thing entirely. They can be referred to as Chief, providing they are past the grade of CW2-CW5. Now if they are Warrant Officer 1 (WO1), they are either Sir, or Mr. Lastname. Pilots are a bit laid back... oh, and cocky. They may not like to be addressed as Sir, because it could assume to the casual observer that they are affiliated to the Branch Officers... not a good thing for those who are aware of the rich history of the Warrant Officer Corps.



Now, I am not a pilot, but I have jumped out of several of their Hueys and Blackhawks. I don't believe they like to be called Chief; they prefer the Mr. appellation rather than the Sir or Chief. Mr. can be used from WO1 - CW5. The technical warrants go for the chief appellation as it infers someone who knows what is going on... in a technical field. IMO (I am a Tech Warrant).



One last thing before I wrap this up. If you decide to place a WO1 in the chair, and you have to address him, it is common for other military people to address them as Chief, even though he/her has not earned that distinction. It is something that is kind of a given, even though many Wobbly Ones try to correct those who do refer to them as Chief. I guess it is habit.



Now if you decide to place a WO in your bird, and need to know whether they prefer the Mr., or Chief, or Sir (as they are a different breed from the Techs), let me know and I will ask one of my pilot buddies.



One last thing, if retained by the CIA to do some overt op, there are usually some heavy hands involved, and as a result the pilots and the crew chiefs will not be “green”. They should have some brass on the collar.



Shoot, one last thing. It’s a Warrant thing, but most of us address each other on a first name basis. The crew chief would no doubt be in tight with the pilots and thus be on a first name basis with them. The others outside that sphere will most likely not be in the same clique.



Hope this helps, or rather, hope you still need the information.

ANNIE
09-27-2005, 01:29 AM
LaViers -- Yep still working on the project and thank you for your expertise , the details really help and I'll be using a lot of what you've provided.

you sound like you've had an interesting career. I've jumped out of one plane in my life(civilian) it was fun and terrifying at the same time! Thank you again.

mrs75
09-27-2005, 07:41 AM
Annie,

Okay, I don't know if this will help you any or not, but I have asked this question to my husband who spent 8 years in the Marine Corps. He worked on planes when serving, and this is what he had to say:

"In the Marine Corps they would use a CH 46 Seaknight, and the coast guard would use a sikorski (I think that's the correct spelling, you may want to double check it)."

Maybe this will help you.

Richard White
09-27-2005, 07:16 PM
Annie,

Don't worry about asking questions. Better to ask up front than make a mistake that'd ruin your story right off the bat. Not all of us are curmudgeons. ;)

The question your post begs is "is this a covert or an overt mission"?


Depending on how many people it would be the Kiowa or Black Hawk, with the Black Hawk being what I believe is the preferred craft because of weight and passenger capacity. A spook story using a Black Hawk would draw no criticism.
Rick

If it's an overt mission, then the Blackhawk is definitely the right way to go (provided you're using an Army helicopter). Being a former member of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), I have to agree with Rick here, however the Kiowa would not work. It is an observation helicopter, which means it's fast and has a small profile. But, if you're wanting to extract someone, there's no cargo capacity, and if the person is possibly hurt, they definitely won't want to stabo (hang onto a metal seat that's hooked to a line on the bottom of the aircraft), which would be the only way to carry a third person in a Kiowa.

The Huey is noisy and much slower than a Blackhawk, the Chinook, (or Flying Eggbeater) is slow, noisy and unquestionably a military helicopter . . . although, if you're trying to insert a large strike team, it's very useful. The Apache would not suit your purposes at all. (Crew of two, no cargo area). I don't have a lot of experience with Marine Helicopters, so without doing some research, I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head.

However, if you're doing a covert mission, I'd actually consider something like a Bell Ranger or whatever their newest civilian helicopter is. Since this is a neutral country, you might even consider checking out some French civilian helicopters, since they're the largest competetor to the U.S. helicopter market (military and civilian) or perhaps a rehabbed Russian helicopter. There are a lot of old Mi-8 (Hip)'s out there that are used for civilian helicopters in Africa.

Just some suggestions/things to consider.

Hope this helped.

MadScientistMatt
09-28-2005, 11:13 PM
However, if you're doing a covert mission, I'd actually consider something like a Bell Ranger or whatever their newest civilian helicopter is. Since this is a neutral country, you might even consider checking out some French civilian helicopters, since they're the largest competetor to the U.S. helicopter market (military and civilian) or perhaps a rehabbed Russian helicopter. There are a lot of old Mi-8 (Hip)'s out there that are used for civilian helicopters in Africa.

I was thinking the same thing myself. Much easier to hide a mission in plain sight.

LaViers
09-28-2005, 11:24 PM
Hello Richard,

101st, huh? Good to see another Airborne on the forum. I was 82nd... you remember them, right?:)

rich
09-29-2005, 03:45 AM
Me? Signal Corp. Been on more helicopters than I wanted to.

As a bonofide curmugdeon I'll continue to reiterate: write what you know.

three seven
09-29-2005, 04:55 AM
As a bonofide curmugdeon I'll continue to reiterate: write what you know.Let's take that statement as a case in point then, shall we? You wrote what you know - that you're a bonofide curmudgeon. Since, however, 'bonofide' is not actually a word, your knowledge, and therefore your information, is clearly unreliable. At worst, you don't exist and at best, you should've looked something up. Which do you think it is?

You know, all some people know is that they want to write, and that makes for a suicidally boring book. If you've never needed to look up a piece of information or ask for a bit of advice in the course of writing, you're either writing something terminally dull or you're just plain getting stuff wrong.

Knowledge comes not only from direct experience but from asking questions and listening to the answers. And since the sole purpose of this forum is to enable those who don't know to ask of those who do, it's highly inappropriate to criticise Annie for using it.

Richard White
09-29-2005, 07:05 AM
Hello Richard,

101st, huh? Good to see another Airborne on the forum. I was 82nd... you remember them, right?:)

Oh, yeah. The 82nd Bus Assault Division. Was in Saudi/Iraq with them in 90/91. (the 82nd rode Saudi Double Decker buses into Iraq in support of the French Foreign Legion Division on the far western flank of the ground war. Had a lot of fun teasing one of my buddies in the 313th MI about that one.)

Actually spent some time at Bragg doing exercises. Had a lot of fun there both on and off duty. <g>

ANNIE
09-29-2005, 11:36 PM
Richard white-thanks for the information, I will put all this information to use and Three seven - thank you. I appreciate the support.

rich
09-30-2005, 03:03 AM
Let's take that statement as a case in point then, shall we? You wrote what you know - that you're a bonofide curmudgeon. Since, however, 'bonofide' is not actually a word, your knowledge, and therefore your information, is clearly unreliable. At worst, you don't exist and at best, you should've looked something up. Which do you think it is?

You know, all some people know is that they want to write, and that makes for a suicidally boring book. If you've never needed to look up a piece of information or ask for a bit of advice in the course of writing, you're either writing something terminally dull or you're just plain getting stuff wrong.

Knowledge comes not only from direct experience but from asking questions and listening to the answers. And since the sole purpose of this forum is to enable those who don't know to ask of those who do, it's highly inappropriate to criticise Annie for using it.

Think on it, 3-7, isn't it silly to base your premise on my misspelled word? Isn't it even more stupid to think that this site is an encyclopedic catch-all for anyone who needs info on anything they're too lazy to research, or maybe know so little about that they shouldn't be playing with in the first place?

Writing is freakin' hard, and, apparently, harder than you know anything about.

Great news for you, though. I won't be participating here anymore--not enough realist here for my blood.

three seven
09-30-2005, 03:36 AM
Think on it, 3-7, isn't it silly to base your premise on my misspelled word?Not nearly as silly as failing to look up something you didn't know while in the process of launching a tirade against those too lazy to look up things they don't know.

Isn't it even more stupid to think that this site is an encyclopedic catch-all for anyone who needs info on anything they're too lazy to research,Annie stated quite clearly that she had trouble researching her question because she didn't know how to make it Google-friendly, not because she couldn't be bothered.

or maybe know so little about that they shouldn't be playing with in the first place?If the question had been 'I'm writing about a soldier... what do they do?' then yes, I may have agreed with you. But it wasn't. It was a specific question relating to a minor plot point, asked purely in the name of trivial accuracy. As I said before, if you're happy never to mention anything in writing that you might have to look up, that's entirely fine and dandy, but it's utterly ridiculous to criticise others for looking outside their own humdrum nine-to-five existence for inspiration.

Writing is freakin' hardSo why are you trying to make it harder?

and, apparently, harder than you know anything about.Not sure I understand the implication here. If you want to level something at me, by all means do so - but please be more explicit.

Great news for you, though. I won't be participating here anymore--not enough realist here for my blood.You can't leave yet, you haven't insulted me properly. Come back and finish what you started.

rich
09-30-2005, 04:13 AM
Ok.

rich
10-02-2005, 03:19 AM
You can't leave yet, you haven't insulted me properly. Come back and finish what you started.[/QUOTE]

rich
10-02-2005, 03:24 AM
Should I draw some conclusions based on your sentence parsing? --or would you rather stay in this arena and try to stick to what is?

three seven
10-02-2005, 05:12 AM
Stick to what is what? I made it clear enough which statement I wanted clarified, but you can talk about sentence parsing too if it floats your boat.

Rabe
10-02-2005, 11:18 AM
Maybe after the two of you have whipped'em out and put away the measuring tape, this thread can get back to what it was supposed to be about?

Rabe...

rich
10-03-2005, 10:22 PM
I tend to use a centimeter ruler--more impressive.

DaveKuzminski
10-03-2005, 10:43 PM
First of all, there are certain rules that are never broken. Sending the Director out on a search would be one. That would leave the agency without a head should other problems have to be solved. Besides, the Director wouldn't necessarily have the skill set needed for conducting a search.

Now, if it's a field director, that's another matter. Still, if the area has several projects taking place, it's doubtful that he would be on the search unless he was the only agent left available. Not very likely since his death or capture could compromise too many operations and secrets. Again, would he be likely to have the necessary skills? Odds favor regular agents being sent to conduct the search.

As to the flight, the CIA maintains its own fleet of aircraft. Unless they are absolutely scraping the bottom of the bucket for equipment, they're not likely to involve others, even a branch of the military.

rich
10-04-2005, 02:00 AM
Truish, Mr. D. Problem is, given Annie's layout I can't get the slightest handle on it. What is neutral territory? What is, in this case, covert? What is "a" director--apparently, not "The" director. Is he overseeing the company's finanancial situation or is he an operations guy? What search and rescue copters were around at the onset?

Oddly, and I say this with all disrespect, within the CIA, they can commandeer a one-winged, rubberband driven bi-plane from Dogpatch if the need arose.

LaViers
10-08-2005, 04:49 AM
Oh, yeah. The 82nd Bus Assault Division. Was in Saudi/Iraq with them in 90/91. (the 82nd rode Saudi Double Decker buses into Iraq in support of the French Foreign Legion Division on the far western flank of the ground war. Had a lot of fun teasing one of my buddies in the 313th MI about that one.)

Actually spent some time at Bragg doing exercises. Had a lot of fun there both on and off duty. <g>

LOL, I remember doing my fair share of 80 PAX Attacks on Sicily. Was a civilian during the first desert operation... I am going next year.

I don't believe that I will ever return to jump status though.

Bragg is cool, if you like the area. I had two tours there, and have a few memories of Fayettnam.