Sex question

Death Wizard · Aug 21, 2010

I'm a long-time AWer, but I haven't spent much time in the Horror thread. However, I'm now 68K into a horror/ghost story that seems, at least to me, to be pretty scary.

The novel has a lot of sex in it -- not quite as frequent or graphic as erotica, but probably a borderline X rating, if made into a movie. My question is, does this make the novel unpublishable. Is there no market for a ghost story that has probably a dozen quite graphic sex scenes in it? (Basically, ghosts forcing it on non-ghosts.)

Should I tone it way down and focus more on the scary parts?

Any thoughts?

CheG · Aug 21, 2010

Good question! There is a big market for erotica of all kinds, primarily if it has a strong female lead.

But you can always write it and remove the sex later.

Damnation Books http://www.damnationbooks.com/ seems to take edgier material with sex and horror, but I don't know much about them

Death Wizard · Aug 21, 2010

CheG said:
Good question! There is a big market for erotica of all kinds, primarily if it has a strong female lead.

But you can always write it and remove the sex later.

Damnation Books http://www.damnationbooks.com/ seems to take edgier material with sex and horror, but I don't know much about them

Thanks! I will definitely check that out. Even my fantasy series had quite a bit of sex. I can't seem to stay away from it.

thothguard51 · Aug 22, 2010

SEX sells...

kaitiepaige17 · Aug 22, 2010

thothguard51 said:
SEX sells...

YEP! And your premise sounds pretty interesting (ghosts forcing sex on non-ghosts. I'd read it, and I never read horror!) GL!

defyalllogic · Aug 22, 2010

The Entity is a horror movie where a woman is repeatedly beaten an raped by a ghost... i think a lot of people watched it... it was only rated R (in the 1980s)

Synonym · Aug 22, 2010

Okay...a small word of caution. Rape doesn't go over well so it really depends on how you handled it.

Did you think I would ignore a thread title like that even if it wasn't in Erotica? LOL

IDGS · Aug 22, 2010

Synonym said:
Okay...a small word of caution. Rape doesn't go over well so it really depends on how you handled it.

Did you think I would ignore a thread title like that even if it wasn't in Erotica? LOL

This.

Very few publishers ix-nay manuscripts in their guidelines for pure sex content.

The vast majority ix-nay manuscripts in their guidelines for rape.

However, rape for the sake of rape, gratutious rape, glorified rape and incestuous rape are something completely different than rape that adds to the storyline. My book coming out through the Severed Press contains a very thinly veiled incestous rape that's key to the plot, and it still made the cut.

Bottom line - if it's sex for the sake of sex, ax it. If it's adding to the plot, by all means go for it.

rsmccoy · Aug 22, 2010

It hasn't hurt Wrath any. His books are explicit.

Death Wizard · Aug 22, 2010

I would not call it rape. More like a male non-ghost magically held down while a female ghost repeatedly has her way with him.

Still, I'm really glad to read these posts. You guys have juiced me up! (In a PG-rated sense.)

Rhoda Nightingale · Aug 22, 2010

Firstly: Have you read Richard Matheson's Hell House? I seem to remember a fair bit of ghost-on-non-ghost action in that one.

Secondly:

I would not call it rape. More like a male non-ghost magically held down while a female ghost repeatedly has her way with him.

Um. How is this not "rape?"

Death Wizard · Aug 22, 2010

Rhoda Nightingale said:
Firstly: Have you read Richard Matheson's Hell House? I seem to remember a fair bit of ghost-on-non-ghost action in that one.

Secondly:

Um. How is this not "rape?"

It is difficult for a female to rape a male, at least when it comes to traditional intercourse. There has to be some sort of consent, or things just won't work. Maybe I'm wrong. This is a whole different topic, I suppose. I don't mean to offend.

Rhoda Nightingale · Aug 23, 2010

So you're saying your male non-ghost is consenting? Because female-on-male rape DOES happen. I'm not saying your story needs to have nonconsensual sex in it, from either gender, but some more research on the subject is warranted if that's what you're doing. Don't make assumptions, is all I'm saying.

nkkingston · Aug 23, 2010

deathwizard said:
It is difficult for a female to rape a male, at least when it comes to traditional intercourse. There has to be some sort of consent, or things just won't work. Maybe I'm wrong. This is a whole different topic, I suppose. I don't mean to offend.

Just because there's a physical response it doesn't mean there's consent. You can be turned on without wanting to actually have sex.

Rhoda's right, if you got scenes in which someone doesn't give consent, they will be considered rape by the majority of readers, and if that's not your intention you need to make it clear in the writing. Like she says, researching male rape would probably be helpful.

There are markets for erotic horror, though they're not huge (at least, not the ones I've found so far). If the sex scenes are meant to turn people on (and if they're explicit) you've probably got an erotic horror, but if they're not intended to titillate it's a horror with sex in.

quicklime · Aug 23, 2010

deathwizard said:
I'm a long-time AWer, but I haven't spent much time in the Horror thread. However, I'm now 68K into a horror/ghost story that seems, at least to me, to be pretty scary.

The novel has a lot of sex in it -- not quite as frequent or graphic as erotica, but probably a borderline X rating, if made into a movie. My question is, does this make the novel unpublishable. Is there no market for a ghost story that has probably a dozen quite graphic sex scenes in it? (Basically, ghosts forcing it on non-ghosts.)

Should I tone it way down and focus more on the scary parts?

Any thoughts?

I do have a thought. Pick out two or three books by Richard Laymon at random and read them.

How does your book compare?

Bear in mind Laymon made most of his $$ getting on international bestseller lists, doing much better in Australia and England than in the USA. If you write at Laymon's level, you may have issues here in the states, or may not. If your writing is far tamer, then you're probably fine anyway.

quicklime · Aug 23, 2010

deathwizard said:
I would not call it rape. More like a male non-ghost magically held down while a female ghost repeatedly has her way with him.

Still, I'm really glad to read these posts. You guys have juiced me up! (In a PG-rated sense.)

I'm at a loss for how you define rape, then.

that being said, again many of Laymon's books included some rape. check him out; he's not one of my favorites in terms of story but he writes in a style that is unique and I try to read him at least occasionally

Death Wizard · Aug 23, 2010

I didn't intend for this to go off-topic, and I agree for the most part with what's been said here.

Satori1977 · Aug 26, 2010

If you wanted to market it as erotica, then no, it wouldn't work because using rape to excite your readers is not allowed. Not with a reputable publisher though. But you are marketing is as horror, and though I don't know as much about this genre (except what I have read), I would think it is ok. Ghosts forcing themselves on people sound pretty scary as well.

Oh, and there is erotic horror...elements of horror and consensual sex. That is completely different though. I wouldn't market what you are writing as erotic horror, because almost everyone would consider that a rape scene.

Semper Write · Aug 26, 2010

My book has a rape/double-murder. Some people were traumatized, while others wondered what the hoopla was all about.

kuwisdelu · Aug 26, 2010

Have you seen the X-Files episode?

(Not discouraging you — the episode only started with the rape and then focused pretty much just on the astral projection... would have been interesting to explore the sexual element more.)

Anyway, I agree with most of what's been said. If the majority of sex is non-consensual, most erotica publishers wouldn't take it. It'd be more horror with sexual elements. I've certainly written violent (not quite horror — think American Psycho — stuff with sexual elements).

I'd say write it however feels more appropriate at first. Then adjust according to critiques and impressions later. I wouldn't tone it down just for fear of reactions, though.

Feidb · Aug 30, 2010

I think whenever you add more than a token sex scene it is automatically labeled as erotica. It is our Victorian society that forces such labels. Where your book would be labeled erotica or even porn here, in Europe it would probably still be a just a ghost story. Go figure.

Death Wizard · Aug 30, 2010

Feidb said:
I think whenever you add more than a token sex scene it is automatically labeled as erotica. It is our Victorian society that forces such labels. Where your book would be labeled erotica or even porn here, in Europe it would probably still be a just a ghost story. Go figure.

Well, it's a first draft and a sloppy one at that. The first drafts of each book of my fantasy series were 90% done, but I've allowed myself to just write with this one, so there's a long way to go. Maybe in subsequent revisions I'll tone it way down.

As for the rape/non-rape discussion, I realize that this is a very sensitive subject, and I don't want to offend anyone who has strong opinions on this. My only point was this: What if someone came up to you and forcibly kissed you, and a third of the way through the kiss you were pushing away, and then two-thirds of the way you were accepting, and then the final third turned into the best kiss of your life. Is that a form of rape, because the act began with force? If so, then my sex scenes are rape.

nkkingston · Aug 31, 2010

deathwizard said:
As for the rape/non-rape discussion, I realize that this is a very sensitive subject, and I don't want to offend anyone who has strong opinions on this. My only point was this: What if someone came up to you and forcibly kissed you, and a third of the way through the kiss you were pushing away, and then two-thirds of the way you were accepting, and then the final third turned into the best kiss of your life. Is that a form of rape, because the act began with force? If so, then my sex scenes are rape.

The question is why you become accepting. If it's because you think you have no other choise, that it's a choice between being acquiescent or being badly hurt, then yes, I'd say it's still rape. Also a big old skool romance plot! Bonus points if the person acquiescing is a shy, demure virgin, but the rapist has somehow mistaken her for a brazen hussy.

(Back when I was in fanfic, that would probably have been called 'dub con' (dubious consent), while rape was 'non con'. I don't know if the terms ever carried over to commercial fiction)

Basically, a person can change their mind about sex, but it depends on why their changing it as to whether it changes whether it's truly consensual. The rapist character's motivation is still rape, though, regardless. If it's a villain, no problem, but a lot of readers would have trouble swallowing them as a hero.

Death Wizard · Aug 31, 2010

nkkingston said:
The question is why you become accepting. If it's because you think you have no other choise, that it's a choice between being acquiescent or being badly hurt, then yes, I'd say it's still rape. Also a big old skool romance plot! Bonus points if the person acquiescing is a shy, demure virgin, but the rapist has somehow mistaken her for a brazen hussy.

(Back when I was in fanfic, that would probably have been called 'dub con' (dubious consent), while rape was 'non con'. I don't know if the terms ever carried over to commercial fiction)

Basically, a person can change their mind about sex, but it depends on why their changing it as to whether it changes whether it's truly consensual. The rapist character's motivation is still rape, though, regardless. If it's a villain, no problem, but a lot of readers would have trouble swallowing them as a hero.

These are excellent points. Thanks.

Feidb · Aug 31, 2010

An attempted rape opens up my latest icky bug novel, The Factory. It is, of course, unsuccessful and the assailant gets it in the end. It is not the least bit romantic though, as you are describing that kiss. I could not even begin to guess if that is legal rape or just erotica. Hope you find the correct answer.

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