Should I be afraid of my own antagonist?

[Project nachonaco]

She scares the holy living crap out of me. Seriously.

There's this one scene where she's about destroy her foe's toddler daughter...with a hammer....a normal tool.

Just...I don't know what it is about it, but that scares me. I mean, why not use a death ray?

Anyone else scared of their own villain?

[three seven]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd be a lot less scared if someone came after one of my kids with a death ray.

[Perks]

If that didn't scare you, you should probably be checked for a pulse...

If your villian doesn't creep you out, why should you expect him/her to work over anyone else's imagination? Have at it...

[three seven]

If that didn't scare you, you should probably be checked for a pulse...The hammer, or the casual nomination of the death-ray as the ideal toddler destroyer?

[Project nachonaco]

;)

I guess I just expect death rays (it's sorta based on a fanfiction I read a while back) to not be painful...they just stop your heart/body from working.

Also, wasn't expecting a VILLAIN to use a normal tool hammer. A big ol' sledgehammer, yes, but not a tool hammer.

She confounds me so much....

[Perks]

Neither. Killing toddlers is, happily, way out of my league. Just a general commentary on scary antagonists and not fretting over getting spooked.

Yeah, reread it - shoulda been more specific.

I should like to state, for the record, that I approve of neither hammers nor death rays as implements of ridding the world of rival's children. Yikes.

[Project nachonaco]

Well, this IS a seriously evil chick we're talking about.

[Perks]

Without a doubt.

[three seven]

I think really what I was getting at was the lack of genre info. Were this a domestic drama set in some backwater slum where everyone's a mechanic or a hooker then yes, a ball-peen hammer would be considerably more logical a weapon than a fecking death ray. With me now?

[Project nachonaco]

Gotcha 3.

It's sci-fi, but I think that sometimes the villain likes to be a bit different. I'm 227 pages into this thing and I still don't know a lot about her...

Is it bad if I've got questions about my own character?

[KimJo]

My antagonist is a force of darkness, so I'm pretty much terrified of it.

After reading this thread, I'm scared of nachonaco's antagonist, too.

[Project nachonaco]

In the sense that you'd never read my novel?

Sorry if my constant replies are annoying anyone.

[three seven]

Is it bad if I've got questions about my own character?Not at all. If you're not constantly learning new things about her, it means you're not letting her character grow and her story will end up suffocated and contrived.

[fallenangelwriter]

still, i would hope you have a decent idea of what make her tick.


WHy does she destroy toddlers with hammers? (in fact, destroy them at all)

if you don't know that, i would suggest that you sit and think until you do.

EDIT: my protagonist scares me more than any of his enemies, actually. he's not evil just... scary. oddly, the mroe he takes on my some of my personality traits, the more disturbing i find him.

[Project nachonaco]

still, i would hope you have a decent idea of what make her tick.


WHy does she destroy toddlers with hammers? (in fact, destroy them at all)

if you don't know that, i would suggest that you sit and think until you do.

EDIT: my protagonist scares me more than any of his enemies, actually. he's not evil just... scary. oddly, the mroe he takes on my some of my personality traits, the more disturbing i find him.

Why? Because it's her foe's kid. Why with hammers? She's morbid, I suppose.

[PattiTheWicked]

My antagonist is scary creepy too. I adore him. He's evil and deadly and sexy all rolled into one, in a Lucius Malfoy sort of way.

There are two kinds of Bad Guys. There's the kind who's bad because he's had some sort of terrible thing happen or he had a sucky childhood, and even though he's bad you know that somewhere deep down inside him, he might have once been decent.

Then there are the Bad Guys who are evil because they LIKE it.

Those are the ones that are WAY more scary. They're also way more fun to write about.

[Project nachonaco]

I agree, Patti!

She's actually evil because her 'parental figure' (not really a parent) wants her to be....but I think she likes it too. :D

[pepperlandgirl]

I've started a story about a murder conspiracy as remembered about 60 years after the event. I've only barely scratched the surface of my characters, but so far I suspect I have at least a pedophile, a sociopath, and somebody who would literally do anything for love (scarier, in a way, than a sociopath) in a cast of just five. I don't know what secrets the other two are harboring, but I have a suspicion that they are horrifying in their own right.

That's what scares me the most about my antagonists (and protagonists). I get a glimmer of their personalities, but I don't know how deep or dark they're going to go, or if I'll be able to go to those places with them.

[Zonk]

My antagonist wants to impregnate his niece, kill and eat her after delivery of the child, and raise the baby to be his heir and successor.

This has been the normal procedure in his family for generations. He belongs to PTW's second group of Bad Guys, those who like it.

I don't know if he was fun to write, but the reaction from my readers to him was...interesting :eek:

:D:D:D

[Mistook]

I've got one of those "love to hate" bad guys. He's a business guy who started out as a kind of champion of the underdog. His intentions seemed pure enough, but there was an arrogance behind it, and a motive of vengance, and yet enough naivete that when the business world got ugly for him, he became "consumed" by a lust for power.

When we meet him in the story, he's gone slightly mad, and faced with a crisis, begins issuing orders for people to be killed. He quickly develops a taste for murder, and sinks ever deeper into the abyss as he slowly loses his mind.

He's all fun like that.

My favorite kind of villains are the ones you hate to admit that you can actually relate to on some level. Their twisted motives almost make sense, and though you hate to admit it, you almost want to see them succeed.

[Sharon Mock]

(Note: the central character of my novel isn't the protagonist. So the beta's comment isn't nearly as disastrous as it might sound.)

Beta Reader: If anything I had more sympathy for [the villain over the protagonist].

Me: Good. Everybody else can SO I DON'T HAVE TO.


I'm not afraid of my antagonist. No, I hate him. Hate, loathe, despise, and revile him. He's a ruthless, amoral, malignant sociopath with the temperament of an ill-favored snapping turtle.

I hate him mostly because I'm the one who has to pick through the wreckage he's created. Meanwhile, readers (well, two so far) have sympathy for the bastard and turn the bulk of their animosity elsewhere.

I suppose that means I'm doing something right...

Stupid book.

[KimJo]

nachonaco, I'd read it. I'd just keep the lights on for the rest of the night.

[MarkPettus]

I killed one of my major characters, murdered him in cold blood... in first person.

For three days I was afraid to answer the door, I just knew it was going to be the police.

I think your feelings are indicative that you told the truth... in your fiction.

[zornhau]

I think that's a good test of a villain - do they scare you? This thread has made me reconsider the volume on my own antagonist.

[loquax]

My antagonist ist isn't real.

[three seven]

I think that's a good test of a villain - do they scare you? Not sure I agree. Mine doesn't scare me at all, but he seems to scare everyone else who reads him. Then again, I am entirely comfortable with my own dark side...

[fallenangelwriter]

My antagonist is scary creepy too. I adore him. He's evil and deadly and sexy all rolled into one, in a Lucius Malfoy sort of way.

There are two kinds of Bad Guys. There's the kind who's bad because he's had some sort of terrible thing happen or he had a sucky childhood, and even though he's bad you know that somewhere deep down inside him, he might have once been decent.

Then there are the Bad Guys who are evil because they LIKE it.

Those are the ones that are WAY more scary. They're also way more fun to write about.

I couldn't agree less.

evil wholly without redeeming feqtures rarely inspires fear in me, more often disgust. the wholly corrupt, the petty, vile, vengeful, short-sighted scum- they're small-time, rarely all that dangerous in the grand scheme of things. I may wish they'd be put out of thier misery, but i don't react with fear.

now, someone admirable- someone once well-meaning, someone maybe still driven by a tweisted mockery of their old ideals- not limited ot mere self-interest, but driven by their "principles" to spread destruction- THAT scares me.

[Aconite]

Then again, I am entirely comfortable with my own dark side...
That's the heart of the matter, right there. If you haven't come to terms with not just your dark side but your whole id as well, manifestations of it (yours or anyone else's) are going to creep you out. There'll always be that voice in the back of your head, saying, "How could I come up with this stuff? Am I warped? Would a normal person think this way? Am I crazy?"

Making Light had a thread on fan fiction and the "id vortex" a few months back; I'll see if I have the link.

[Jaycinth]

A person attacking a toddler with the hammer in the woods is scary, bad, yet 'expected'. a person attacking a todddler with a hammer on a spaceship is cold and terrifying. Why? There are so many more EXPECTED ways to die in outerspace. Therefore killing a baby with a hammer in that context is worse than inhuman.

One of my bad guys is an evil ***** who I hadn't intended to write into the story in the first place. There have been days when writing about her has made me sick to my tummy. I mean I couldn't keep lunch down. Then I couldn't write for three days, and even then I had to start on an unrelated chapter and come back to her.

My best friend read it and said she didn't think that I could think that way and that the character was thoroughly evil and If this was what I was going to write, then she does not want to read any more. (I've lost 2 readers that way.)

[Aconite]

The thread I mentioned above regarding the Id Vortex: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005871.html
Note that this thread discusses sex and violence.

[zornhau]

Not sure I agree. Mine doesn't scare me at all, but he seems to scare everyone else who reads him. Then again, I am entirely comfortable with my own dark side...

Mine scares me because he's ruthless and highly effective. He's also better than me at longsword.

[Pencilone]

On my first draft I liked my anatgonist so much that during revision time I realised he is not bad enough (he even became a good guy eventually). Then I had to came up with another (a real) antagonist and change the whole plot.

[Sharon Mock]

I actually don't like the phrase Id Vortex very much. It implies that darkness is something you have to carefully skirt around lest you be sucked in. (Which I suppose isn't all that untrue, when I stop to think about it. Still...) As I recall, in Freudian theory the Id is an entirely negative, atavistic, destructive force that needs to be reined in by Ego and Superego -- am I right? (I admit, I've shamelessly avoided Freud.) I prefer the idea of "shadow mining" -- dredging up the dark energy and putting it to positive, constructive use.

I've become quite good friends with my shadow in the course of writing this book. Had I known how difficult it would get -- had I realized the sort of squick I'd have to navigate -- I'm not entirely sure I would have attempted it. At the moment, at least, I'm glad I had the courage to see it through.

[Mike Coombes]

I have to agree with the fallen angel person. Unremittingly evil antagonists are usually quite two dimensional. You may be scared by what your character is capable of, but you should love them. Hitler was kind to animals. Nobody is 100% evil.

The sort of woman you trust enough to leave your toddlers with, but is also capable of the hammer thing... that's scary. That's what made Hannibal Lecter work - he was charming. He was polite, intelligent, articulate. He just liked to eat people occasionally.

The thing about every real life 'monster' is that in most aspects of their lives they were unremarkable, often quite likeable. Somebody loved them. What would be more chilling - the crazy guy down the street who turns out to be a serial killer, or your brother or sister, or best friend.

[scarletpeaches]

None of my characters scare me; I know they're not real. I was the one who created them.

[Greenwolf103]

I have had the "bad guy that was too nice" thing in my writing. Turning him into a bona fide villain made the story more interesting but I think, on some level, we want to see our villains in a nice way in order to see them as "human" and someone we would WANT to write about.

I have had villains who scare me. And...other unreal entities. :) In my last book, the villain scared me so bad that I had to stop writing so I could rock in a corner.

I think when a villain scares you or makes you hate him/her, it's a good sign. It means you're doing something right.

[Aconite]

I actually don't like the phrase Id Vortex very much. It implies that darkness is something you have to carefully skirt around lest you be sucked in. (Which I suppose isn't all that untrue, when I stop to think about it. Still...) As I recall, in Freudian theory the Id is an entirely negative, atavistic, destructive force that needs to be reined in by Ego and Superego -- am I right? (I admit, I've shamelessly avoided Freud.) I prefer the idea of "shadow mining" -- dredging up the dark energy and putting it to positive, constructive use.
The id isn't just the negative, destructive things. It's everything you want deep down, before the ego and superego get involved and modify it into something more socially or personally acceptable. I like "vortex," myself, because it expresses the powerful pull that has.

[Diana Hignutt]

I've had people who, after reading my first novel, said they would never look at me the same way again. My antagonist's depth of darkness and evil was allegedly too scary. What would they expect? He's a demon.

As far as killing children with hammers--personally I can't watch or read anything where children are killed or seriously injured without a VERY important dramatic reason. Making the bad guy more threatening and scary isn't a good enough reason in my book. But, hey, that's just me.

diana

[Mistook]

bludgeoning an infant with a hammer is, to me, strictly gore, and cheesy at that. It doesn't make me want to go hide in a corner. It makes me want to puke.

I had a friend once, who thought he was being all meaningful and thought provoking by writing a short story where he falls asleep smoking a cigarette and burns to death. It was pages and pages of description about his horrible, agonizing death by fire, followed by a depressing denoument where his surviving family (homeless of course) thought of him as this great, blundering failure.

A few of our peers at the time had the attitude of , "Oh, God that is so blindingly authentic!"

I thought it was overwrought melodrama taken to the absolute extreme, and stripped of every possible meaning other than, "I want to horrify you." In other words... it was pathetic.

Look at Hitchcock with "The Birds" There's somethig that sends a chill down your spine and makes you want to go hide. They're not hammering babies or burning people in their beds. But they're creepy as all hell.

[Project nachonaco]

I should note that the little girl manages to escape. :)

[Mistook]

I should note that the little girl manages to escape. :)


Okay then! That's a horse of a different color! :)

[Project nachonaco]

Okay then! That's a horse of a different color! :)

Still scared crapless of her, though. The antagonist. Not the little girl. :p

[_AnT1c_]

I have a whole bunch of villians, to go with some of the different subplots in my story, each from completely different backgrounds and different motives. Two main ones stand out though; one is motivated by greed and hunger for power, the other by jelousy and bitter/twistedness. I find that such motives tend to work better for me than the antagonist simply being outright evil, pychopathic etc. as they allow for more depth and development of these charecters, as well as allowing for some redemption, where appropirate. (Good guy turned bad is good too, but that tends to lead to unhappy endings). As for scary? Not in themselves. They tend to be more hateable, or even pitiable. The methods they are willing to use... now thats where they start to get scary.

[zarch]

Perhaps my favorite bad guy is Montressor of Poe's "Cask of Amontillado." True, he's the protagonist, but it's a great example of the protagonist being the bad guy. Anyway, if you can think back to ninth grade you'll remember that there is just something inherently unnerving about this guy. He's manipulative, vengeful, boastful, confident, and intelligent. He isn't "evil" or "demonic," just a sociopath. Shakespeare's Iago is another of my favorite bad guys. Sociopaths make great villians because they don't experience guilt...to me, that makes their actions and movites creepier. I'd much rather read about a low-lying, sneaky villain who is effective through manipulation and deception than one who just hacks the crap out of everyone with a hammer. That's just gross.

[zarch]

Okay, maybe you don't use hammers to hack people. Machete, butcher knife, whatever. You get the point.

[scarletpeaches]

I prefer 'villains' who are as near to the generally accepted version of 'normal' as possible. Then you're left with the feeling of, "What separates them from us? What flicked the switch in their head? What made them cross that line?"

I think it was Dean Koontz who said, "Evil wears a mask that looks like all our faces."

Which is what's so scary about murderers and rapists - it's wrong to demonise them, make them out to be monsters - because they look like us, they live among us. Don't look way over there for your villains. They're here.

[Elwyn]

You want villains? Just watch (and read) the news! It's not fantasy, it's real.

[fallenangelwriter]

Not sure I agree. Mine doesn't scare me at all, but he seems to scare everyone else who reads him. Then again, I am entirely comfortable with my own dark side...

if your dark side doesn't disturb you, try basing a villain on your positive traits.