Suggestions for a separate board for Science Fiction (Mods and Members please read)

[Titus Raylake]

I would like to suggest that a separate board be created for Science Fiction.

Five years ago (in the publishing industry), Fantasy and Science Fiction were classified together, and it worked out quite nicely. But since then, things have changed -- Fantasy has gone more mainstream, and the audience for Science Fiction is growing tighter and more specialized. Most of the discussion that goes on in this board is about or relating to Fantasy. If a separate board were made for Science Fiction, it would allow for better organization, less confusion, and more discussion of what the small but dedicated audience of Science Fiction fans long for.

Some people might argue that Science Fantasy is what brings the two genres together, but Science Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Fantasy, and is marketed as a Fantasy book. Just as Dark Fantasy is really just Fantasy, sharing some elements with the horror genre. I do not think that one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction -- these two audiences have entirely different interests, therefore marketing must be different. That said, Fantasy is no closer in similarity to Science Fiction than it is to the horror genre.

Members, if you agree that a separate board should be made for Science Fiction, please give your support.

[Euan H.]

My feeling would be that creating a separate board for science-fiction would be counterproductive. Many of the concerns of science-fiction and fantasy writing are shared (world-building etc.), and, despite your assertion that "one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction " (which incidentally I'm not sure I agree with), a large proportion of people who read one of the genres also read the other--much more (I would think) than the extent to which people who read fantasy also read horror.

Anyway, that's my 2c.

[Titus Raylake]

I would have to disagree, Euan H. World-building is usually not the same for both Fantasy and Science Fiction. And knowledge of magic discussed for Fantasy would not be of much use to a Science Fiction writer such as myself. Science Fiction often deals with futuristic politics and economies, while Fantasy often uses ideas from past works and builds its own magic system around its (often medieval) theme. Fantasy has nothing to do with the future of politics or economies.

Fantasy and Science Fiction might share some resemblances, but most genres do when compared to another genre. And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1? And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy? Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author. I don't think I need to go into lengthy discussion of the current markets for each genre.

The bottom line is, some Fantasy novels may have similarities to Science Fiction novels and vice versa, but the two genres are more different than they are the same, and a publisher cannot market Science Fiction to the exact same audience as Fantasy and make the book a success.

[danahunter]

Good points. However, I don't like to see the two divorced myself. You're being a little black and white on the "Fantasy is past, Sci Fi is future" thing. There's Urban Fantasy, after all, and I've seen sci fi set in the past. What I'm writing now doesn't fit comfortably into a single category. It's got rivets. It's also got mythical beasts. There are many, many people who read and adore both, and write and adore writing both, and for myself I like coming to a forum where I can yammer about both as well.

[Titus Raylake]

Well, I'm not trying to be black and white. It's just not possible to include those off-beat novels in this discussion. I think that, if the board was to be split up, the general questions about genre fiction would fall into the Writing Novels board, as they do anyway. But, on the positive side, it would allow for more detailed and genre-specific discussion of the Science Fiction and Fantasy genres.

[Diana Hignutt]

The publishing industry still considers the two genres interconnected and interrelated.

[DaveKuzminski]

I simply don't see any overriding reason to separate the two simply because there are too many crossovers within the two genres.

For instance, how would you catagorize a novel with a dragon as the main character who can also cross through outer space, uses guns as his primary weapon, likes to watch television, and is a cop out to end a blackmarket on human flesh furnished by two underworld gangs?

Or how would you categorize a novel with unicorns, one of which can travel through time and seeks out a compatible human to assist him in preventing the extinction of unicorns?

Let's face it, the categorization is mostly a marketing tool meant to assist readers whose preferences run to one or the other. However, the truth of the matter is that they're both basically similar in more ways to each other than in the ways that they're different.

[sunandshadow]

From a practical point of view, with the two combined there is more activity in the forum, with more activity in the forum people are more likely to keep visiting it and continue starting new discussions, so keeping the two genres combined will result in more discussion of both genres, to everyone's benefit.

[victoriastrauss]

The bottom line is, some Fantasy novels may have similarities to Science Fiction novels and vice versa, but the two genres are more different than they are the same, and a publisher cannot market Science Fiction to the exact same audience as Fantasy and make the book a success.I disagree. In fact, publishers do market SF and fantasy to exactly the same audience, for the simple reason that most people who read SF also read fantasy, and vice versa. This is certainly true of me, and also of most speculative fiction readers and writers I know. There are also many writers who switch back and forth between SF and fantasy.

In fact, I'd argue that the lines between fantasy and science fiction are more blurred now than they ever have been, with all kinds of books coming out of both branches of the genre that blend ideas and tropes.

SF and fantasy, obviously, are different (though no one seems to agree on exactly how or why)--but in general, they are more similar to one another than they are to other genres. And many of the concerns for writers are the same. World building, for instance--SF writers may build worlds through scientific extrapolation, and fantasy writers may build them through mythic extrapolation, but world building is world building, and though the details may differ the basic issues are the same--believability, consistency, incorporating backstory, etc.

If you want some discussions specifically of science fiction, why not start a few threads yourself?

- Victoria

[preyer]

in theory, i agree, TR. in practice, like s&s mentions, splitting the board up would probably not serve either very well. too, i think we need to make the distinction that since fantasy outsells sf ten to one (your words, not mine, lol-- i have no idea if that's true, but i'll take your word for it), those are sales based on readers, not writers. that is, a sci-fi writer can and does have a lot to offer the fantasy writer, and vice versa. for sales and marketting, you're right: in terms of this being a writing board, i think the two are closely related enough that they should be joined at the hip for the sake of helping everyone involved in being the best writer they can be. separating sf would mean all of about five people would attend the board on a regular basis and eventually get left by the wayside to wither on the vine. too, i imagine there's some kind of bandwidth consideration involved.

again, i'm not disagreeing, TR, just in terms of writing survival i feel the two should be kept together.

[azbikergirl]

When we have a discussion pertaining to one but not the other, using a descriptive title for the thread will help. For instance, I started one asking SF writers where they got their science. Writers who write exclusively fantasy are free to ignore, read or contribute as they see fit. No need to create a separate forum, IMO.

We can all get along!

[TMA-1]

I agree that a separate board would be good, and the same with the Share Your Work board.

[veinglory]

I would keep them together and just label threads that are specific to one in the subject line, e.g. [SF] [FANT]

[maestrowork]

Like Veinglory said, just put a label in your subject line.

[TMA-1]

A good and simple solution, I agree. Same should go for SYW.

[Kasey Mackenzie]

I agree that separating the two is unnecessary and may actually be detrimental in possibly causing one or both threads to become less active rather than more so. Specifying whether your thread is meant for either Fantasy or Science Fiction seems a good compromise to me.

[Jamesaritchie]

I would like to suggest that a separate board be created for Science Fiction.

Five years ago (in the publishing industry), Fantasy and Science Fiction were classified together, and it worked out quite nicely. But since then, things have changed -- Fantasy has gone more mainstream, and the audience for Science Fiction is growing tighter and more specialized. Most of the discussion that goes on in this board is about or relating to Fantasy. If a separate board were made for Science Fiction, it would allow for better organization, less confusion, and more discussion of what the small but dedicated audience of Science Fiction fans long for.

Some people might argue that Science Fantasy is what brings the two genres together, but Science Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Fantasy, and is marketed as a Fantasy book. Just as Dark Fantasy is really just Fantasy, sharing some elements with the horror genre. I do not think that one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction -- these two audiences have entirely different interests, therefore marketing must be different. That said, Fantasy is no closer in similarity to Science Fiction than it is to the horror genre.

Members, if you agree that a separate board should be made for Science Fiction, please give your support.

I think separate boards would be a good idea, but the reasons SF and Fantasy have always been lumped together are: 1. It's very often the same publisher that puts out both. 2. It's very often the same writers who write both. 3. Five years ago or today, there remains a huge bleedover in the readership.

It simply is not correct that, on the whole, the SF and fantasy audience are different. They are, on the whole, the same audience, and publishers rely on thoe readers who buy both. A great many readers do. SF will wurge for a couple of years, an dthen fantasy will do the same, but both always drop again. And the number of those who read both is strong and consistent, whichever is surging at the moment.

And other than such movies as LOTR, science fiction is more mainstream than ever, and usually far more mainstream than fantasy, at least in the way overall mainstream is counted. Fantasy novels do outsell SF novels, but not by a huge margin, and even both together make up a pretty small chunk of market share. And when the New York Times bestseller list is looked at, when TV series are looked at, and when number of movies made are looked at, SF is considered far more mainstream than fantasy, with LOTR emempted.

Things haven't changed at all. It's a normal cycle that repeats itself every few years.

I believe separate boards would be a good idea only because you know what you're getting, and because the writing rules are different.

Oh, and most often, science fantasy is considered a sub-genre of sceince fiction, not of fantasy.

[Jamesaritchie]

Oh again. Overall, fantasy does not outsell science fiction ten to one. It doesn't even come close to this. You have to be real slective in what you label SF and fantasy to get those numbers. And if you take out certain exceptions in both genres, neither sells worth a darn.

[Jamesaritchie]

[QUOTE=Titus Raylake]
And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1? And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy? Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author. I don't think I need to go into lengthy discussion of the current markets for each genre.
[QUOTE]

Your numbers are hugely off as a market whole, and the audience, at least according to publishers, hasn't changed. Nor have all the writers who write both.

Fantasy is currently going through what is being called the "LOTR/Harry Potter Spike." This happens every few years, first to SF, then to fantasy. But the market share for both together isn't very high, and SF will always be connected with fantasy, both in types of novels, those who write them, and the audiences.


And as I said in another post, that ten to one number can not only be easily explained, it can be nearly eliminated completely just by removing a couple of exceptional fantasy series, or even be defining SF and fantasy as publishers generally do. Many, many novels can fall into either category, and generally speaking, publishers and readers just don't care which label you put on the cover, or, better, if there is no label. Many of the bestselling SF novels that hit the New Yoork Times list aren't not labeled SF in any way, but they remain SF.

SF and fantasy are always going to be closely related genres. Nothing wrong with this at all.

[Renatus]

Although I am new to this place, I have to say I am deeply uncomfortable with separating the discussions of fantasy and SF to different boards for a number of reasons. One is that I write both, and for me they often do overlap - I need some scientific extrapolation for the things in my fantasy to work correctly, and I need some fantastic what-ifing and mystical extrapolation to understand some of the less logical motivations behind the things my characters do in SF stories. The worldbuilding often overlaps for me as well - some of my fantasy worlds are societies where their magic is used as science, for instance, and it needs to have some sort of underlying logical basis, and input from people with stronger science backgrounds than I really, really helps.

And if you don't mind a personal anecdote - once apon a time I belonged to a writing and art site that was specifically for fantasy and science fiction. While all of the writing was together, no matter the genre, the art was separated by genre. This ended up causing no end of trouble as members posted fantasy art that bled into the SF genre, and were told to post it in the other gallery, and there was obvious fantasy in the SF gallery but it couldn't go into the fantasy gallery because of modern trappings, and since the SF gallery was mostly ignored by visitors, these members got very little input on their pictures. The members were frequently irritated and the moderators had constant headaches trying to explain why it had to be this way. Then one day, the owner of the site finally decided that all art could jolly well be together and one major source of pointless fiddling was removed.

To sum up my babbling - I've seen too much evidence of a lot of bleedover between genres to think that separating the two is necessary or desirable. It's not too hard to put a little label in the header of the post for anyone who isn't interested in fantasy or SF.

[Saanen]

I don't like the idea of separating this board into two for many of the reasons others have brought up. Not only are SF and fantasy two sides of the same coin (and a pretty funny-looking coin it must be), but many of the posters here write both and face the same difficulties with both genres. Also, as others have pointed out, it's common to have books that fall neatly into neither category or either.

Besides, I'd hate to lose the input of the fantasy people on the SF board and vice versa, and that's bound to happen.

[Euan H.]

I would have to disagree, Euan H. World-building is usually not the same for both Fantasy and Science Fiction.
How, exactly? In both you have to create a believable, internally consistent world if you want do it well. Frex, if you have a device or power that allows teleportation, you have to think about the implications of this: how does this power affect people's lives? It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a magic power that involves the ability to communciate instantly, or an ansible on a space-ship, the basic world-building principle (follow the chain of effects) remains the same.

And knowledge of magic discussed for Fantasy would not be of much use to a Science Fiction writer such as myself.
Well this is true, but essentially trivial. If you feel threads about magic aren't helpful, then ... don't read them. :)

Science Fiction often deals with futuristic politics and economies, while Fantasy often uses ideas from past works and builds its own magic system around its (often medieval) theme. Fantasy has nothing to do with the future of politics or economies.
1) not all SF involves futuristic politics and economies (think Crichton, frex)
2) What does "uses ideas from past works" mean? Are you saying that SF doesn't use ideas from past works? (Like, frex, the Honor Harrington novels and the Hornblower series?)
3) Not all Fantasy involves magic as such
4) Fantasy does not often talk about 'future' economies and politics, that's true. But it does often talk about alternative politics or economies (at least to the same extent that SF does. Again, the Honor Harrington universe's politics are not about the future in any meaningful sense. Likewise for the Foundation books, the Dune series, and any other number of SF novels.)
Fantasy and Science Fiction might share some resemblances, but most genres do when compared to another genre.
Well yes, but SF and fantasy are more closely related than, say, SF and romance, or fantasy and crime.
And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1?
I don't think it is. Critchton's books are SF. Just because they're not marketed as SF doesn't mean they're not SF.
And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy?
Because SF conventions also cover fantasy, pr'raps? If you look here (http://www.interaction.worldcon.org.uk/) (the page for Worldcon 2005), you'll see an announcement about the Tolkein Society. Worldcon 2005 was titled: "The 63rd World Science Fiction Convention and 2005 Eurocon"
Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author.
That's nice. As a reader, I know I read both.

[Titus Raylake]

It's common knowledge that the audience for Fantasy is much larger than Science Fiction, though there may be three reasons for this, which are:

1. The extraordinary amount of LOTR and The Hobbit books sold.

2. The Harry Potter books are sometimes classified as Fantasy.

3. Success of such recent titles as Eragon and Eldest.

Okay, I will admit that most Fantasy by new authors and Science Fiction by new authors sell about the same. But Science Fiction doesn't take off as much as Fantasy does. Some authors are making millions from Fantasy novels, while some of the most popular Science Fiction writers are making about $60,000-$80,000 a year.

As for what I said about Fantasy outselling Science Fiction, this figure has been reasonably accurate for the last few years. To get a second opinion, go to http://www.absolutewrite.com/novels/genre_writers.htm to read the article by Jeff Colburn.

Science Fantasy is a sub-genre of Fantasy described as, "Fantasy, sometimes taking place in the future, in which characters confuse science for magic." It is not a sub-genre for Science Fiction, because I have read articles on the sub-genres so many times that I could probably recite them word-for-word. But if you want me to post links to some articles about Fantasy sub-genres and Science Fiction sub-genres, I could look them up.

Back to the board. Let's picture for a second that the board was to be split up. There would probably be more threads started about Science Fiction, and more threads for Fantasy. People who write both Science Fiction and Fantasy will go to both boards; really, how hard is it to go from one board to the other? It will stop such things as members comparing the philosophy of Fantasy to Science Fiction. We will be able to ask a genre-specific question to a Science Fiction or Fantasy writer, and perhaps get more effective answers to our questions. I know that some of you have probably grown accustomed to grouping the two together, but I think that separation of this board into different genres could be for the best.

Most other message boards for writers have separate boards for Science Fiction and Fantasy, and there is no lack of focus on these boards and discussions are often very helpful to writers of that genre. I also know that there are people writing novels that don't fall into any one category, but what would be wrong with visiting both boards? The two could be just a click away from each other. While there is (probably) a lot of work involved in creating a new board, I think that the benefits would outweigh any possible downsides.

Well, you know what I think of separating the boards. It would certainly benefit people who write in one genre, and shouldn't be a problem for writers of both Science Fiction and Fantasy.

[Sharon Mock]

Most other message boards for writers have separate boards for Science Fiction and Fantasy, and there is no lack of focus on these boards and discussions are often very helpful to writers of that genre.

I quickly checked a couple of the other message boards I have bookmarked -- the Speculations Rumor Mill (http://www.speculations.com/rumormill/) and the Night Shade Books forum (http://www.nightshadebooks.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics) -- and neither separate by genre. Could you link a couple of counterexamples so we can see how it works?

As somebody who's clearly writing something in the science-fiction-fantasy continuum, but not so clearly either SF or fantasy, I'd rather see a single board. If split, I'll visit both -- not really a hardship. I already skip or skim threads on this board; if split, I'll probably continue to skip or skim threads on both.

If it will make people more comfortable, I can live with a split. However, if we can share a professional organization (http://www.sfwa.org/), I think we can share a topic.

[triceretops]

Many moons ago it was called the Science Fiction Writers of America. In reality, the many fantasy writers had no organization or place to go--no newsletter, no Cons, no cohesive forums or meetings. For years SFWA struggled with the notion of joining the two organizations, and it was a very tough battle, if I remember correctly. It is now the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. This brought so much resentment and heat, it nearly didn't work. It did eventually smooth out.

I write sci-fi, and I'm grateful that publishers don't discriminate between the two, since I can ride the coattails of the fantasy genre right in there. There was a time when sci-fi ruled and they thumbed their noses at the fantasy writers. It is not so anymore. And if anything, we SFers could use the crutch of the popularity of fantasy right now to help us bust into our shrinking market.

Tri

[Titus Raylake]

If it will make people more comfortable, I can live with a split. However, if we can share a professional organization (http://www.sfwa.org/), I think we can share a topic.

Well, I wouldn't say that every member of sfwa is comfortable with this arrangement. As triceratops pointed out, there was a lot of resentment at the start -- and some long-time sci-fi writers still resent the joining of the two.

[victoriastrauss]

Okay, I will admit that most Fantasy by new authors and Science Fiction by new authors sell about the same. But Science Fiction doesn't take off as much as Fantasy does. Some authors are making millions from Fantasy novels, while some of the most popular Science Fiction writers are making about $60,000-$80,000 a year.Titus, no offense. But I wonder whether you have any qualifications to comment on market trends.

Well, I wouldn't say that every member of swfa is comfortable with this arrangement. As triceratops pointed out, there was a lot of resentment at the start -- and some long-time sci-fi writers still resent the joining of the two.This is true, for reasons that have little to do with reality, and a lot to do with prejudice. Some of the old guard SF writers still pine for the days of pulp magazines and Ace doubles, when SF was an exclusive club that only geeks could join, and you didn't have to worry too much about stuff like well-rounded characters and literate prose.

Fortunately, speculative fiction has branched out a bit since then, and most SFWAns are fine with that.

- Victoria

[triceretops]

This is true Victoria. Some of the old guard from the Golden Age has never gotten over the fact that Fantasy jumped in bed with them. When I was with SFWA many moons ago there were heated disussions about keeping them out. I left the organization before the change was made and was quite shocked to find that the new title SFFWA had evolved. But live and let live is my motto. Maybe next will be seeing the Thrilling Horror Writers Association, or the Mystery Writers of Suspense.

Tri

[Pthom]

Maybe we need separate boards for all the offshoot sub-genres. A Western Fantasy Romance Horror Dark Erotica one sounds good to me. Throw in a spy or two and a submarine and ...

nah

[veinglory]

Maybe we need separate boards for all the offshoot sub-genres. A Western Fantasy Romance Horror Dark Erotica one sounds good to me. Throw in a spy or two and a submarine and ...

nah

I've written a Western Romance Erotic book--but fitting them all in would be a trick... ;)

I think subdivision has pros and cons but currently we are few enough, with enough in common, to go on as is.

[azbikergirl]

The Authors By Design forum (http://www.authorsbydesign.com/AbDforums/index.php) has them separate. It's not my preference though, 'cause that means I have to check two places for discussions relevant to what I write.

[Pthom]

I think we'll just keep the two siblings together for the time being. Get too many separate forums and sooner or later, one will be forgotton (see mainstream/contemporary here).

And, although I don't really think there's a need for it, I will consider the creation of sub-forums under this one for you sub-genre nuts to deal with those items peculiar to one or the other--similar to the sub-forums under Share Your Work.

[Rabe]

I disagree. In fact, publishers do market SF and fantasy to exactly the same audience, for the simple reason that most people who read SF also read fantasy, and vice versa. This is certainly true of me, and also of most speculative fiction readers and writers I know. There are also many writers who switch back and forth between SF and fantasy.



Oh! You're the preacher and I'm the choir! Keep it comin SISTAH!!!

But, more seriously, I'm sure I'm indicative of what Ms. Strauss is saying about the two markets being interrelated by the fans. I read fantasy (my favorite authors are 'fantasy' authors) and I also read a lot of science fiction. I also read some horror.

I write horror, dark fantasy and science fiction. I see no reason to try to divorce the two from each other. If there is any problem with the way the thread is set up, I'd rather see it changed from 'Science Fiction/Fantasy' to the more correct, catch-all of "Speculative Fiction".

And also a big 'here here!' to whoever stated that the original poster should attempt to create more 'science fiction' threads if they are not happy enough with what is discussed in here.

Rabe...

[Titus Raylake]

Titus, no offense. But I wonder whether you have any qualifications to comment on market trends.
LOL! Well, that comment caught my attention.

Anyway, what does qualify a person to comment on market trends? I've had three sci-fi novels published, the last one in 1999. But I listen to most advice given to sci-fi writers by Michael Stackpole and Tara Harper, two top sci-fi authors. And I'm a huge sci-fi fan (true sci-fi. I'm not much of a fan for science fiction that takes place in the past, Science Fantasy, etc. Though I do read some Fantasy novels.)

I don't write *a lot* of novels anymore, but I'm more into writing scripts for sci-fi shows on television, because it usually pays better than writing for book publishers. I'm probably not the most experienced person on these boards, but I've picked up enough knowledge of the current markets.

[Axler]

I've had three sci-fi novels published, the last one in 1999. I don't write *a lot* of novels anymore, but I'm more into writing scripts for sci-fi shows on television, because it usually pays better than writing for book publishers.

Out of curiosity, what were the titles of the novels and the TV series you write for?

[DaveKuzminski]

Scripts, huh? Sounds good. If you know of any good sites worth visiting concerning writing for TV, I'm interested in hearing of them.

[victoriastrauss]

I've had three sci-fi novels published, the last one in 1999.Apologies then. It's just that I follow the SF/fantasy market pretty closely (and the publishing industry in general), and your comments (as well as your use of "sci-fi", a term that most pro speculative fiction authors avoid like the plague) seemed a bit off-base to me. But that's just my opinion...as Dennis Miller says, I could be wrong.

I too would be interested to know more about your novels.

- Victoria

[preyer]

'Maybe we need separate boards for all the offshoot sub-genres. A Western Fantasy Romance Horror Dark Erotica one sounds good to me. Throw in a spy or two and a submarine and ...' ~ i would be into this big-time.

why would anyone avoid the term 'sci-fi' if their story is a science fiction story? okay, granted, i thought switching from 'used cars' to 'previously owned' was petty and stupid, but aren't people beyond being fooled by labels instantly dismissed once you look at the product?

[Pthom]

'Maybe we need separate boards for all the offshoot sub-genres. A Western Fantasy Romance Horror Dark Erotica one sounds good to me. Throw in a spy or two and a submarine and ...' ~ i would be into this big-time.LOL Go for it, preyer...it's all yours

why would anyone avoid the term 'sci-fi' if their story is a science fiction story? okay, granted, i thought switching from 'used cars' to 'previously owned' was petty and stupid, but aren't people beyond being fooled by labels instantly dismissed once you look at the product?I think the problem comes in pronunciation? Sci-fi (or worse, scifi) is often heard in the back hallways of writers' conventions as "skiffy," and to my ears is demeaning to the genre. However, when I read sci-fi or SF, in my head I hear "sigh figh" (or more rarely, "ess eff" ;) )

[victoriastrauss]

why would anyone avoid the term 'sci-fi' if their story is a science fiction story? okay, granted, i thought switching from 'used cars' to 'previously owned' was petty and stupid, but aren't people beyond being fooled by labels instantly dismissed once you look at the product?You would think so. IMO, it's an extremely silly dispute--who really cares if it's Ess Eff or Skiffy or Sci-Fi? But for whatever reason, it evokes very strong feelings in some people, who feel that "sci-fi" is insulting and demeaning. The prevailing custom among pros and fans is to avoid the term "sci-fi" with almost religious fervor. Usually, when someone uses that term, they're being sarcastic, are new to the field, or are not part of the SF/fantasy community.

- Victoria

[MacAllister]

Actually, my experience as a reader and fan is pretty much exactly what Victoria describes, too.

[ChunkyC]

I don't manage to get over here enough as it is, and if the board was split, I'd have two boards to try to visit instead of one. And where do we stop the splitting? A dark fantasy forum? Cyberpunk forum? Alternate history?

I feel that Science Fiction and Fantasy are siblings, so lets keep this forum the way it is. Start threads about specific SF or Fantasy issues if you want. Let us lean over each other's shoulders and learn.

As for my writing, I write science fiction with some paranormal elements, and dabble in fantasy. I can't imagine trying to create a forum that would contain only what is relevent to what I write, I'd probably be the only one in there. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[DaveKuzminski]

I have discovered in my own writing that trying to isolate elements into what are distinctly this or that tends to inhibit my own creativity. In other words, having the two genres in the same topic is a benefit because it brings out the differences in ways that those might suddenly create inspiration.

For instance, using time travel in a fantasy. Sure, it's been done before, but when you add that and the idea of saving some fantasy creature from becoming extinct, you get a whole new story that possibly, just possibly, no one before has thought of, let alone written.

Or put a fantasy character into a science fiction setting. Now, this one's been done plenty of times before, but it doesn't take more than a gentle tweak to give it a whole new perspective.

That's why I think that we should want these genres to continue their topic cohabitation since we can only benefit by exposure to more ideas.

[veinglory]

One option I rather like is to drop both names and use the term 'speculative fiction'.

[triceretops]

I think we are twins, connected somehow by an unseen umbilical cord, and I think that crossover is called Science Fantasy, as Dave was ascribing to. I've used the term Supernatural or Speculative fiction, and I like the sound of it, which puts us in the same cooking pot. What I don't understand is there are more publishers who take on fantasy and rebutt science fiction. I've even noticed some who want Dark fantasy only, so the quest or epic fantasy is excluded. Then you have "hard" science fiction, which is a story with more of a highbrow, high-tech dissertation as opposed to the mild or abstract version.

The bottom line--if we could don our cat-burglar duds and do a B & E into the homes of agents and editors, while they're gone, we could tally their books and find out which are their dog-eared favorites and find out EXACTLY what they're reading (In our genre of course).

I just found out that there really is a market for Science Fiction Romance. I'll be damned. Now that sounds like it would be fun to do!

Tri

[ChunkyC]

One option I rather like is to drop both names and use the term 'speculative fiction'.
Yup, that is not a bad idea. Though some horror or supernatural writers might start saying that what they write falls under that heading and we'll be right back where we started! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sharon Mock]

Yup, that is not a bad idea. Though some horror or supernatural writers might start saying that what they write falls under that heading and we'll be right back where we started! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hey, the SFWA is perfectly fine with that! :)

[preyer]

hey, if any of y'all get to be really famous with tons of influence, do me a favour and strike the term 'speculative fiction' from your personal lexicon. do your part to bring back some sanity, will ya? i guess for some people life just isn't cornfuddling enough without have to change 100 year old names for the purpose of... of... well, i'm not quite really sure. i think these are the same people who go around shouting, 'george lucas raped my childhood!'

end of rant.

and, by the way, george lucas raped my childhood.

[Jaycinth]

. . .and Flash Gordon was there ,in silver underwear,

Claude Raines was the Invisible Man.

[Lyra Jean]

Yup, that is not a bad idea. Though some horror or supernatural writers might start saying that what they write falls under that heading and we'll be right back where we started! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you look in the Writer's Market Horror, Science Fiction, Fantasy are all lumped together in one category.

[Titus Raylake]

I proposed a four part Science Fiction series to a publisher, called Rising Planet, using the manuscript for the first book and a detailed synopsis for each of the other three. After several back-and-forth talks with the editor, it was eventually pitched and received approval from the pub board.

It was probably more common to have four to five part series published then. Now, most publishers seem to prefer trilogies as opposed to this. Some of you might scratch your heads and want to ask, "But didn't you say that you had three Science Fiction novels published?" Yeah, I will get to that part soon enough.

The third book in the series, released in 1999, was called Rising Planet: Chaos Unleashed. It went out of print in 2002 when my publisher was bought to become a branch of Simon&Schuster. The fourth book was never published. I could have become one of the writers for a large publishing house because of this deal, but I was still angry about my publisher being bought, and my editor moved on to freelance writing (or that is what I heard), so I ended up going with an offer I received for script writing.

Victoria, I think what you said about professional Science Fiction writers avoiding the term "sci-fi" is more of a generalization, just as the saying that published writers refuse to tell the amount of advance they received on a book. While it may be true that some Science Fiction writers avoid using the term, there are others (me included) that do. But I tend to avoid the abbreviations SF for Science Fiction and SFF for Science Fiction and Fantasy because they sometimes draw confusion to them, while just about anyone understands what sci-fi means.

Now back to writing for television. I write whatever the sci-fi network suggests. That's not to say that I have never turned down an offer by them or that I agree with all of their choices for shows. But they buy the rights for the scripts to their own shows, so I can't technically say that I'm the creator or starter to any particular show on their network.

[DaveKuzminski]

Titus, do you offer suggestions for series at all? What I'm asking here is whether any writers receive any attention beyond being a source of scripts.

[Titus Raylake]

Titus, do you offer suggestions for series at all? What I'm asking here is whether any writers receive any attention beyond being a source of scripts.

Dave, I'm a little confused by the question you are asking. Do you mean the recognition for script writing?

[triceretops]

Dave, do you mean program direction/counseltation?

Tri

[DaveKuzminski]

What I mean is whether you're asked for any ideas for new series. I can see how that can also be viewed to mean whether you're asked for episode ideas. I'm simply trying to learn just how much input producers and directors accept from writers.

[Titus Raylake]

What I mean is whether you're asked for any ideas for new series. I can see how that can also be viewed to mean whether you're asked for episode ideas. I'm simply trying to learn just how much input producers and directors accept from writers.

Ah, good question.

The answer is that I don't have much say -- the network decides on the series, and usually supplies an outline for each episode in one of their series. Suggestions for revisions of the outline are considered, but the outline is rarely ever revised. My job is to write a script based on the outline for an episode, subject to final approval of the network.

[Axler]

I write whatever the sci-fi network suggests.

They didn't suggest you write the TV movie, Crimson Force that aired this past June, did they?

What name do you write under? Googling "Titus Raylake" didn't come up with anything other than your profile here.

[Four_Elements]

I own copies to all three of the Rising Planet books. I think they were under the name T. R. Raylake, but I don't know what names he may be using now.

Oh yeah, Titus, weren't you once a fantasy writer?

[preyer]

you might want to stay away from my 'sci-fi channel, you crazy bostards' thread, heh heh.

hey, since you've got the inside track, pitch my idea for an evil house, will ya? see, the wallpaper peels from the walls and constricts people like a boa, see, and... well, the rest writes itself.

seriously, that would be a pretty cool job. you actually get paid to do that? and here i am working like a sucker for the man all this time. what a chump i am! right now, the sci-fi channel is playing in the background. 'lepercaun.' wow, what an awesome movie that was. warrick davis... master thespian. that's all i can say. how the oscars missed jennifer aniston's performance is beyond me.

so, what's the verdict here? keep it as is is what i'm hearing for the most part.

[triceretops]

Mr. Titus, you'll have to forgive preyer, but he's the best damn pitch man we have in this community!

I think it should be said that the sci-fi channel writers cannot be held totally responsible for the the less than stellar production work that sees these programs and specials to fruition upon the screen.

I once watched a program in where these giant leeches sucked the blood of these steroid-ridden jocks, and went wild at a resort. Damn good concept, if you were to read the book/script alone. But when it hit the screen something went flooey! Bad special effects, editing, and music score--completely out of the writer's hands.

Anyway, welcome, sir. It's a pleasure to see you on the AW boards.

Triceratoops

[Birol]

You would think so. IMO, it's an extremely silly dispute--who really cares if it's Ess Eff or Skiffy or Sci-Fi? But for whatever reason, it evokes very strong feelings in some people, who feel that "sci-fi" is insulting and demeaning. The prevailing custom among pros and fans is to avoid the term "sci-fi" with almost religious fervor. Usually, when someone uses that term, they're being sarcastic, are new to the field, or are not part of the SF/fantasy community.

- Victoria

Victoria, I've heard you say this before regarding pro speculative fiction writers and I've listened, because I have the utmost respect for your experience and knowledge, but I have several fans who are ardent fans science fiction and fantasy and I know they use the term 'sci-fi' without flinching. I know the one who is most actively involved in the SF/fantasy community on the fan side, had never heard that it was considered insulting or demeaning. Now, I'm curious. I'm going to have to poll the rest of my non-writing friends about this.

[Sharon Mock]

Victoria, I've heard you say this before regarding pro speculative fiction writers and I've listened, because I have the utmost respect for your experience and knowledge, but I have several fans who are ardent fans science fiction and fantasy and I know they use the term 'sci-fi' without flinching. I know the one who is most actively involved in the SF/fantasy community on the fan side, had never heard that it was considered insulting or demeaning. Now, I'm curious. I'm going to have to poll the rest of my non-writing friends about this.

It's a generational (and probably regional) thing, I think. Dates back to the '60s and the start of the New Wave, doesn't it?

I know I don't care one way or the other about "sci-fi," but I use SF because some people consider sci-fi derogatory. Younger fans are less likely to have dealt with people who have strong opinions about the issue, and so are less likely to see the point in avoiding the term.

In ten or twenty years I suspect the term "sci-fi" will be entirely rehabilitated (except for a few curmudgeons), and the argument relegated to fan history. I don't consider this a bad thing.

[Birol]

I was wondering about it being generational.

[DaveKuzminski]

Titus, thanks. I can see that I'm right in not wanting to become a scriptwriter. I can generally follow my own outlines, but I'd have trouble following someone else's if they had a plot hole that I could see clearly.

So, the networks select series? Again, interesting. I shall have to cultivate some contacts there just to see if some of what I've written has a chance to ever become a network series.

Again, thanks.

[Titus Raylake]

FE: Yes, I started out as a Fantasy writer. But I've moved onto Science Fiction since then and don't plan on going back.

preyer: I don't have the guts to click on your thread about the sci-fi network, so I wouldn't know what it is about. Most problems with a series aren't the fault of the writers, though they often get the blame for them.

It looks like everyone wants to keep this board as it is, but we are looking at alternatives now -- such as separating the board by sub-genres, labeling topics, etc.

[preyer]

true, true, you can't lay all the blame on the writers. the production and the other talent all share the credit when it's good, they *should* share it (in a perfect world) when it's bad, too. at the same time, there's no excuse for 'pterodactyl.' could have been a cool movie, but then the writing was just so formula that it's like, okay, what was the point here? i don't know how extensive the outline is that you've got to stick to: may be such a thing where those writers *had* to write it that way (although i don't believe this is the way to 1) make an entertaining movie and 2) the way to attract writing talent and an audience). too, i don't know if that applies to series or sci-fi channel's own movie production. 'frankenfish' was cool, but anything with coolie in it, well, let's just say it falls short. (and why does the sci-fi channel like coolio so much, anyway? lol.)

everyone should remember to read my posts with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

given the opportunity, i'd work on these things, too. not so much a series (although i swear to all the tree gawds that someone ripped-off the concept of 'herman's head' from one of my short stories somehow), but if they ever came up and said, 'preyer, we know you're a hack and that's all we're looking for. here's an outline. make a bad movie out of it,' i'd reply, 'if it's a bad story you want, you've come to the right man.' man, who *wouldn't* jump at the chance?

that thread started off as a bashing of 'mansquito' segueing with all the subtley of skylab landing on your roof into a 'what the hell is the sci-fi channel doing, anyway?' thing. then it became an issue of me not using capital letters in especially long posts (long posts? moi?). back to some more sci-fi channel ribbing, i think. standard stuff in the online life of preyer.

sorry for the asides, dumb jokes and the off-topic stuff, but how often do you have a sci-fi channel writing guy hanging around? just out of curiosity, do you get to pick the projects you write for or are you like a staff writer? do any movies for 'em? what series do you write for? why is the sky blue, etc.?

[Axler]

(although i swear to all the tree gawds that someone ripped-off the concept of 'herman's head' from one of my short stories)

That's why I was asking about the Crimson Force TV movie...although that wasn't so much a rip-off as a pastiche of four of my books...and since I know that Sci-Fi Channel optioned the Outlanders series about four years ago, I thought there might have been a "hey, the option lapsed, but we have a script we already paid for" thing going on...upholding the fine tradition of "Brillo/Futurecop", "Soldier/Terminator", and of course, "Demon With A Glass Hand/Terminator".

[veinglory]

Spec fic is also a pretty old name... but as noted it includes other genres--anything that plays 'what if...' with reality.

[triceretops]

I used to write fiction in the vein of Twilight Zone and One Step Beyond. Never did know what to call this type of fiction. Supernatural?

Tri

[veinglory]

These days supernatural seems ot be specific to ghosts and curses and similar entities with paranormal being about preternatural monsters. But then my definitions are probably warped by spending too much time in romance subgenres. (p.s. someone mentioned sf romance--very hot subgenre right now, readers love it but very few people write it)

[triceretops]

All of my science fiction stories contain heavy romantic elements, but it is not that crucial to the plot--just an extra flavor.

Tri

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Spec fic is also a pretty old name... but as noted it includes other genres--anything that plays 'what if...' with reality....which is why I'm confused as to the general hostility with which some people greet the term "speculative fiction". It's certainly easier to say than "science fiction fantasy horror." And it's more accurate--it implies the entire range of "what if" fiction whereas the list of the three genres SFFH might let some good spec fic fall through the cracks.

Is it just that some people are very hostile on principle towards changing traditional names? Kind of like the backlash against saying "chair" or "firefighter" instead of "chairman" or "fireman" because, even though it's more accurate to reality, "we've always said 'fireman' it's good enough for grandpa it oughtta be good enough for you what are you some pinko politically correct libral commie?!"

Just wondering. I like the term 'speculative fiction' and would like to see it catch further on.

(I would also rather be called a 'pilot' than an 'airman', too, being both female and enamored of accuracy, but ya gotta pick yer battles, and a literary community moves faster than the FAA.)

[preyer]

i can only speak for myself, of course, it's just i see no point in the change other than people's rush to rename every single thing in sight. it's to the point where you don't even know what street you're on anymore because it's got six different names along its course.

i mean, really, why change it? it clarifies absolutely nothing. my question is, if, indeed, it was good enough for grandpa, why *isn't* it good enough for us? because grandpa would have kicked everyone's asss for being so damn picky. gotta respect that. it must have been a woman who came up with this term, lol. *preyer ducks for cover*

[Mac H.]

Scripts, huh? Sounds good. If you know of any good sites worth visiting concerning writing for TV, I'm interested in hearing of them.Well, you've gotta visit Larry Brody's www.tvwriter.com (http://www.tvwriter.com).

The message boards haven't been the same since Xena writer/producer 'ZODITCH' wandered off, but they are a wealth of information to get you from 0 to 90% pretty quickly.

Mac

[victoriastrauss]

Titus, what name do you write under? I'm interested in your books, but I can't find them at Amazon or Alibris (I searched under "Raylake", "Rising Planet", and "Chaos Unleashed".)

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

I have several fans who are ardent fans science fiction and fantasy and I know they use the term 'sci-fi' without flinching. I know the one who is most actively involved in the SF/fantasy community on the fan side, had never heard that it was considered insulting or demeaning.It makes sense that aversion to the term isn't universal, especially among younger fans. But my experience is that there is a pretty strong general sense in the SF/fantasy community (at least the parts of it that I've encountered) that "sci-fi' is an insulting term. When I joined SFWA in 1998 I was given stern advice by a number of people that I must never use it.

- Victoria

[Birol]

I own copies to all three of the Rising Planet books. I think they were under the name T. R. Raylake, but I don't know what names he may be using now.

Oh yeah, Titus, weren't you once a fantasy writer?

Not surprising that you own all three of the Rising Planet books since you are Titus, Four. Authors should own their own books, whether or not they've been published, don't you agree?

[ChunkyC]

Titus. Birol has pointed out a rather vexing issue. It appears you and Four, the only one yet to claim to have seen any of these publications you say you wrote, might well be one and the same. This brings up a dilemma for us. You are presenting yourself as a pro, and dispensing advice as such. Yet we have no evidence to back up your claims of expertise. We are naturally opposed to posters passing themselves off as something they are not. Our members come here for advice they can trust, and we try to do our best to ensure that the advice given here is indeed trustworthy.

Despite that I cannot find a single mention of an author named 'Raylake' or any of the titles you've mentioned online, I will give you a chance to make your case. Please present us with verifiable evidence that you are indeed a published author. If you cannot, we cannot allow you to continue passing yourself off here as a professional.

What say you?

[triceretops]

Doh!


Tri

[HapiSofi]

Victoria, I've heard you say this before regarding pro speculative fiction writers and I've listened, because I have the utmost respect for your experience and knowledge, but I have several fans who are ardent fans science fiction and fantasy and I know they use the term 'sci-fi' without flinching. I know the one who is most actively involved in the SF/fantasy community on the fan side, had never heard that it was considered insulting or demeaning. Now, I'm curious. I'm going to have to poll the rest of my non-writing friends about this.

Don't bother. Victoria's right. Not everyone flinches over "sci-fi" (unless you pronounce it "skiffy," in which case it's allowable but means something different), but it bothers enough members of the fan and pro community to be well worth avoiding.

[Birol]

Don't bother. Victoria's right. Not everyone flinches over "sci-fi" (unless you pronounce it "skiffy," in which case it's allowable but means something different), but it bothers enough members of the fan and pro community to be well worth avoiding.

Ah, but Hapi, I like to poll my non-writing friends and they like to be polled. We're just weird that way.

[James D. Macdonald]

If someone wants to poll me, the best way to start is with drinks over dinner....

[preyer]

go work for delphi, you'll get polled every day.

[Euan H.]

Not surprising that you own all three of the Rising Planet books since you are Titus, Four. Authors should own their own books, whether or not they've been published, don't you agree?
Did I miss something?

[Wouldn't be that much of a surprise if I did...]

Edited:

Never mind. I found the other thread. Now I'm off to wonder how on earth someone thought they'd get away with this...

[three seven]

It looks like everyone wants to keep this board as it is, but we are looking at alternatives now -- such as separating the board by sub-genres, labeling topics, etc.Sorry, who's 'we' exactly?

[Pthom]

Sorry, who's 'we' exactly?"We" is a figment of T. Rayfaker's imagination.

The SF/F forum will remain as is. No sub-genre thingies to get lost, no favoritism. We will continue to discuss both science fiction and fantasy as always. If you like, sure, when you begin a thread put a notice (or warning, as the mood strikes) in the title, "SF" or "Fantasy" or whatever. I don't think it's necessary; we're all intelligent enough to distinguish the difference (mostly).

[ChunkyC]

24 hours and counting since I posted the official request for proof of publication. That's it then.

Since we have received no response to our charges of duplicity, I have banned both Titus Raylake and his alter-ego, Four_Elements

We did not do this lightly. But with no evidence to support his claims of being a pro and abundant evidence to the contrary, we had no choice. The integrity of the advice offered here at AW was at stake. We cannot tolerate liars, especially those who might lead any of our members to follow advice that could detrimentally affect their ability to build a career as a writer.

Case closed.

[Pthom]

Because of the deceptions of the originator of this thread, we are closing it. We could have just deleted it, but there are responses here that may be valuable to others. However, to continue any of the topics discussed here, please choose another thread or begin a new one.

Thank you for understanding.