Suggestions for a separate board for Science Fiction (Mods and Members please read)

Titus Raylake · Sep 13, 2005

I would like to suggest that a separate board be created for Science Fiction.

Five years ago (in the publishing industry), Fantasy and Science Fiction were classified together, and it worked out quite nicely. But since then, things have changed -- Fantasy has gone more mainstream, and the audience for Science Fiction is growing tighter and more specialized. Most of the discussion that goes on in this board is about or relating to Fantasy. If a separate board were made for Science Fiction, it would allow for better organization, less confusion, and more discussion of what the small but dedicated audience of Science Fiction fans long for.

Some people might argue that Science Fantasy is what brings the two genres together, but Science Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Fantasy, and is marketed as a Fantasy book. Just as Dark Fantasy is really just Fantasy, sharing some elements with the horror genre. I do not think that one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction -- these two audiences have entirely different interests, therefore marketing must be different. That said, Fantasy is no closer in similarity to Science Fiction than it is to the horror genre.

Members, if you agree that a separate board should be made for Science Fiction, please give your support.

Euan H. · Sep 14, 2005

My feeling would be that creating a separate board for science-fiction would be counterproductive. Many of the concerns of science-fiction and fantasy writing are shared (world-building etc.), and, despite your assertion that "one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction " (which incidentally I'm not sure I agree with), a large proportion of people who read one of the genres also read the other--much more (I would think) than the extent to which people who read fantasy also read horror.

Anyway, that's my 2c.

Titus Raylake · Sep 14, 2005

I would have to disagree, Euan H. World-building is usually not the same for both Fantasy and Science Fiction. And knowledge of magic discussed for Fantasy would not be of much use to a Science Fiction writer such as myself. Science Fiction often deals with futuristic politics and economies, while Fantasy often uses ideas from past works and builds its own magic system around its (often medieval) theme. Fantasy has nothing to do with the future of politics or economies.

Fantasy and Science Fiction might share some resemblances, but most genres do when compared to another genre. And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1? And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy? Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author. I don't think I need to go into lengthy discussion of the current markets for each genre.

The bottom line is, some Fantasy novels may have similarities to Science Fiction novels and vice versa, but the two genres are more different than they are the same, and a publisher cannot market Science Fiction to the exact same audience as Fantasy and make the book a success.

danahunter · Sep 14, 2005

Good points. However, I don't like to see the two divorced myself. You're being a little black and white on the "Fantasy is past, Sci Fi is future" thing. There's Urban Fantasy, after all, and I've seen sci fi set in the past. What I'm writing now doesn't fit comfortably into a single category. It's got rivets. It's also got mythical beasts. There are many, many people who read and adore both, and write and adore writing both, and for myself I like coming to a forum where I can yammer about both as well.

Titus Raylake · Sep 14, 2005

Well, I'm not trying to be black and white. It's just not possible to include those off-beat novels in this discussion. I think that, if the board was to be split up, the general questions about genre fiction would fall into the Writing Novels board, as they do anyway. But, on the positive side, it would allow for more detailed and genre-specific discussion of the Science Fiction and Fantasy genres.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 14, 2005

The publishing industry still considers the two genres interconnected and interrelated.

DaveKuzminski · Sep 14, 2005

I simply don't see any overriding reason to separate the two simply because there are too many crossovers within the two genres.

For instance, how would you catagorize a novel with a dragon as the main character who can also cross through outer space, uses guns as his primary weapon, likes to watch television, and is a cop out to end a blackmarket on human flesh furnished by two underworld gangs?

Or how would you categorize a novel with unicorns, one of which can travel through time and seeks out a compatible human to assist him in preventing the extinction of unicorns?

Let's face it, the categorization is mostly a marketing tool meant to assist readers whose preferences run to one or the other. However, the truth of the matter is that they're both basically similar in more ways to each other than in the ways that they're different.

sunandshadow · Sep 14, 2005

From a practical point of view, with the two combined there is more activity in the forum, with more activity in the forum people are more likely to keep visiting it and continue starting new discussions, so keeping the two genres combined will result in more discussion of both genres, to everyone's benefit.

victoriastrauss · Sep 14, 2005

Titus Raylake said:
The bottom line is, some Fantasy novels may have similarities to Science Fiction novels and vice versa, but the two genres are more different than they are the same, and a publisher cannot market Science Fiction to the exact same audience as Fantasy and make the book a success.

I disagree. In fact, publishers do market SF and fantasy to exactly the same audience, for the simple reason that most people who read SF also read fantasy, and vice versa. This is certainly true of me, and also of most speculative fiction readers and writers I know. There are also many writers who switch back and forth between SF and fantasy.

In fact, I'd argue that the lines between fantasy and science fiction are more blurred now than they ever have been, with all kinds of books coming out of both branches of the genre that blend ideas and tropes.

SF and fantasy, obviously, are different (though no one seems to agree on exactly how or why)--but in general, they are more similar to one another than they are to other genres. And many of the concerns for writers are the same. World building, for instance--SF writers may build worlds through scientific extrapolation, and fantasy writers may build them through mythic extrapolation, but world building is world building, and though the details may differ the basic issues are the same--believability, consistency, incorporating backstory, etc.

If you want some discussions specifically of science fiction, why not start a few threads yourself?

- Victoria

preyer · Sep 14, 2005

in theory, i agree, TR. in practice, like s&s mentions, splitting the board up would probably not serve either very well. too, i think we need to make the distinction that since fantasy outsells sf ten to one (your words, not mine, lol-- i have no idea if that's true, but i'll take your word for it), those are sales based on readers, not writers. that is, a sci-fi writer can and does have a lot to offer the fantasy writer, and vice versa. for sales and marketting, you're right: in terms of this being a writing board, i think the two are closely related enough that they should be joined at the hip for the sake of helping everyone involved in being the best writer they can be. separating sf would mean all of about five people would attend the board on a regular basis and eventually get left by the wayside to wither on the vine. too, i imagine there's some kind of bandwidth consideration involved.

again, i'm not disagreeing, TR, just in terms of writing survival i feel the two should be kept together.

azbikergirl · Sep 14, 2005

When we have a discussion pertaining to one but not the other, using a descriptive title for the thread will help. For instance, I started one asking SF writers where they got their science. Writers who write exclusively fantasy are free to ignore, read or contribute as they see fit. No need to create a separate forum, IMO.

We can all get along!

TMA-1 · Sep 14, 2005

I agree that a separate board would be good, and the same with the Share Your Work board.

veinglory · Sep 14, 2005

I would keep them together and just label threads that are specific to one in the subject line, e.g. [SF] [FANT]

maestrowork · Sep 14, 2005

Like Veinglory said, just put a label in your subject line.

TMA-1 · Sep 14, 2005

A good and simple solution, I agree. Same should go for SYW.

Kasey Mackenzie · Sep 14, 2005

I agree that separating the two is unnecessary and may actually be detrimental in possibly causing one or both threads to become less active rather than more so. Specifying whether your thread is meant for either Fantasy or Science Fiction seems a good compromise to me.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2005

SF/Fantasy

Titus Raylake said:
I would like to suggest that a separate board be created for Science Fiction.

Five years ago (in the publishing industry), Fantasy and Science Fiction were classified together, and it worked out quite nicely. But since then, things have changed -- Fantasy has gone more mainstream, and the audience for Science Fiction is growing tighter and more specialized. Most of the discussion that goes on in this board is about or relating to Fantasy. If a separate board were made for Science Fiction, it would allow for better organization, less confusion, and more discussion of what the small but dedicated audience of Science Fiction fans long for.

Some people might argue that Science Fantasy is what brings the two genres together, but Science Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Fantasy, and is marketed as a Fantasy book. Just as Dark Fantasy is really just Fantasy, sharing some elements with the horror genre. I do not think that one single book can please both the mainstream Fantasy audience, and the dedicated fans of Science Fiction -- these two audiences have entirely different interests, therefore marketing must be different. That said, Fantasy is no closer in similarity to Science Fiction than it is to the horror genre.

Members, if you agree that a separate board should be made for Science Fiction, please give your support.

I think separate boards would be a good idea, but the reasons SF and Fantasy have always been lumped together are: 1. It's very often the same publisher that puts out both. 2. It's very often the same writers who write both. 3. Five years ago or today, there remains a huge bleedover in the readership.

It simply is not correct that, on the whole, the SF and fantasy audience are different. They are, on the whole, the same audience, and publishers rely on thoe readers who buy both. A great many readers do. SF will wurge for a couple of years, an dthen fantasy will do the same, but both always drop again. And the number of those who read both is strong and consistent, whichever is surging at the moment.

And other than such movies as LOTR, science fiction is more mainstream than ever, and usually far more mainstream than fantasy, at least in the way overall mainstream is counted. Fantasy novels do outsell SF novels, but not by a huge margin, and even both together make up a pretty small chunk of market share. And when the New York Times bestseller list is looked at, when TV series are looked at, and when number of movies made are looked at, SF is considered far more mainstream than fantasy, with LOTR emempted.

Things haven't changed at all. It's a normal cycle that repeats itself every few years.

I believe separate boards would be a good idea only because you know what you're getting, and because the writing rules are different.

Oh, and most often, science fantasy is considered a sub-genre of sceince fiction, not of fantasy.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2005

Numbers

Oh again. Overall, fantasy does not outsell science fiction ten to one. It doesn't even come close to this. You have to be real slective in what you label SF and fantasy to get those numbers. And if you take out certain exceptions in both genres, neither sells worth a darn.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 14, 2005

Titus Raylake said:
And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1? And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy? Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author. I don't think I need to go into lengthy discussion of the current markets for each genre.

Your numbers are hugely off as a market whole, and the audience, at least according to publishers, hasn't changed. Nor have all the writers who write both.

Fantasy is currently going through what is being called the "LOTR/Harry Potter Spike." This happens every few years, first to SF, then to fantasy. But the market share for both together isn't very high, and SF will always be connected with fantasy, both in types of novels, those who write them, and the audiences.

And as I said in another post, that ten to one number can not only be easily explained, it can be nearly eliminated completely just by removing a couple of exceptional fantasy series, or even be defining SF and fantasy as publishers generally do. Many, many novels can fall into either category, and generally speaking, publishers and readers just don't care which label you put on the cover, or, better, if there is no label. Many of the bestselling SF novels that hit the New Yoork Times list aren't not labeled SF in any way, but they remain SF.

SF and fantasy are always going to be closely related genres. Nothing wrong with this at all.

Click to expand...

Renatus · Sep 14, 2005

Although I am new to this place, I have to say I am deeply uncomfortable with separating the discussions of fantasy and SF to different boards for a number of reasons. One is that I write both, and for me they often do overlap - I need some scientific extrapolation for the things in my fantasy to work correctly, and I need some fantastic what-ifing and mystical extrapolation to understand some of the less logical motivations behind the things my characters do in SF stories. The worldbuilding often overlaps for me as well - some of my fantasy worlds are societies where their magic is used as science, for instance, and it needs to have some sort of underlying logical basis, and input from people with stronger science backgrounds than I really, really helps.

And if you don't mind a personal anecdote - once apon a time I belonged to a writing and art site that was specifically for fantasy and science fiction. While all of the writing was together, no matter the genre, the art was separated by genre. This ended up causing no end of trouble as members posted fantasy art that bled into the SF genre, and were told to post it in the other gallery, and there was obvious fantasy in the SF gallery but it couldn't go into the fantasy gallery because of modern trappings, and since the SF gallery was mostly ignored by visitors, these members got very little input on their pictures. The members were frequently irritated and the moderators had constant headaches trying to explain why it had to be this way. Then one day, the owner of the site finally decided that all art could jolly well be together and one major source of pointless fiddling was removed.

To sum up my babbling - I've seen too much evidence of a lot of bleedover between genres to think that separating the two is necessary or desirable. It's not too hard to put a little label in the header of the post for anyone who isn't interested in fantasy or SF.

Saanen · Sep 14, 2005

I don't like the idea of separating this board into two for many of the reasons others have brought up. Not only are SF and fantasy two sides of the same coin (and a pretty funny-looking coin it must be), but many of the posters here write both and face the same difficulties with both genres. Also, as others have pointed out, it's common to have books that fall neatly into neither category or either.

Besides, I'd hate to lose the input of the fantasy people on the SF board and vice versa, and that's bound to happen.

Euan H. · Sep 14, 2005

Titus Raylake said:
I would have to disagree, Euan H. World-building is usually not the same for both Fantasy and Science Fiction.

How, exactly? In both you have to create a believable, internally consistent world if you want do it well. Frex, if you have a device or power that allows teleportation, you have to think about the implications of this: how does this power affect people's lives? It doesn't matter whether you're talking about a magic power that involves the ability to communciate instantly, or an ansible on a space-ship, the basic world-building principle (follow the chain of effects) remains the same.

And knowledge of magic discussed for Fantasy would not be of much use to a Science Fiction writer such as myself.

Well this is true, but essentially trivial. If you feel threads about magic aren't helpful, then ... don't read them.

Science Fiction often deals with futuristic politics and economies, while Fantasy often uses ideas from past works and builds its own magic system around its (often medieval) theme. Fantasy has nothing to do with the future of politics or economies.

1) not all SF involves futuristic politics and economies (think Crichton, frex)
2) What does "uses ideas from past works" mean? Are you saying that SF doesn't use ideas from past works? (Like, frex, the Honor Harrington novels and the Hornblower series?)
3) Not all Fantasy involves magic as such
4) Fantasy does not often talk about 'future' economies and politics, that's true. But it does often talk about alternative politics or economies (at least to the same extent that SF does. Again, the Honor Harrington universe's politics are not about the future in any meaningful sense. Likewise for the Foundation books, the Dune series, and any other number of SF novels.)

Fantasy and Science Fiction might share some resemblances, but most genres do when compared to another genre.

Well yes, but SF and fantasy are more closely related than, say, SF and romance, or fantasy and crime.

And if people were attracted to both genres, why would Fantasy be outselling Science Fiction 10 to 1?

I don't think it is. Critchton's books are SF. Just because they're not marketed as SF doesn't mean they're not SF.

And why would there be so many Science Fiction conferences when there are few to none for Fantasy?

Because SF conventions also cover fantasy, pr'raps? If you look here (the page for Worldcon 2005), you'll see an announcement about the Tolkein Society. Worldcon 2005 was titled: "The 63rd World Science Fiction Convention and 2005 Eurocon"

Let's face it, the audiences have changed, and I know that for a fact as a Science Fiction author.

That's nice. As a reader, I know I read both.

Titus Raylake · Sep 15, 2005

It's common knowledge that the audience for Fantasy is much larger than Science Fiction, though there may be three reasons for this, which are:

1. The extraordinary amount of LOTR and The Hobbit books sold.

2. The Harry Potter books are sometimes classified as Fantasy.

3. Success of such recent titles as Eragon and Eldest.

Okay, I will admit that most Fantasy by new authors and Science Fiction by new authors sell about the same. But Science Fiction doesn't take off as much as Fantasy does. Some authors are making millions from Fantasy novels, while some of the most popular Science Fiction writers are making about $60,000-$80,000 a year.

As for what I said about Fantasy outselling Science Fiction, this figure has been reasonably accurate for the last few years. To get a second opinion, go to http://www.absolutewrite.com/novels/genre_writers.htm to read the article by Jeff Colburn.

Science Fantasy is a sub-genre of Fantasy described as, "Fantasy, sometimes taking place in the future, in which characters confuse science for magic." It is not a sub-genre for Science Fiction, because I have read articles on the sub-genres so many times that I could probably recite them word-for-word. But if you want me to post links to some articles about Fantasy sub-genres and Science Fiction sub-genres, I could look them up.

Back to the board. Let's picture for a second that the board was to be split up. There would probably be more threads started about Science Fiction, and more threads for Fantasy. People who write both Science Fiction and Fantasy will go to both boards; really, how hard is it to go from one board to the other? It will stop such things as members comparing the philosophy of Fantasy to Science Fiction. We will be able to ask a genre-specific question to a Science Fiction or Fantasy writer, and perhaps get more effective answers to our questions. I know that some of you have probably grown accustomed to grouping the two together, but I think that separation of this board into different genres could be for the best.

Most other message boards for writers have separate boards for Science Fiction and Fantasy, and there is no lack of focus on these boards and discussions are often very helpful to writers of that genre. I also know that there are people writing novels that don't fall into any one category, but what would be wrong with visiting both boards? The two could be just a click away from each other. While there is (probably) a lot of work involved in creating a new board, I think that the benefits would outweigh any possible downsides.

Well, you know what I think of separating the boards. It would certainly benefit people who write in one genre, and shouldn't be a problem for writers of both Science Fiction and Fantasy.

Sharon Mock · Sep 15, 2005

Titus Raylake said:
Most other message boards for writers have separate boards for Science Fiction and Fantasy, and there is no lack of focus on these boards and discussions are often very helpful to writers of that genre.

I quickly checked a couple of the other message boards I have bookmarked -- the Speculations Rumor Mill and the Night Shade Books forum -- and neither separate by genre. Could you link a couple of counterexamples so we can see how it works?

As somebody who's clearly writing something in the science-fiction-fantasy continuum, but not so clearly either SF or fantasy, I'd rather see a single board. If split, I'll visit both -- not really a hardship. I already skip or skim threads on this board; if split, I'll probably continue to skip or skim threads on both.

If it will make people more comfortable, I can live with a split. However, if we can share a professional organization, I think we can share a topic.

triceretops · Sep 15, 2005

Many moons ago it was called the Science Fiction Writers of America. In reality, the many fantasy writers had no organization or place to go--no newsletter, no Cons, no cohesive forums or meetings. For years SFWA struggled with the notion of joining the two organizations, and it was a very tough battle, if I remember correctly. It is now the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America. This brought so much resentment and heat, it nearly didn't work. It did eventually smooth out.

I write sci-fi, and I'm grateful that publishers don't discriminate between the two, since I can ride the coattails of the fantasy genre right in there. There was a time when sci-fi ruled and they thumbed their noses at the fantasy writers. It is not so anymore. And if anything, we SFers could use the crutch of the popularity of fantasy right now to help us bust into our shrinking market.

Tri

Suggestions for a separate board for Science Fiction (Mods and Members please read)

Titus Raylake

Euan H.

Unspeakable

Titus Raylake

danahunter

Titus Raylake

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

DaveKuzminski

Preditors & Editors

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

preyer

excessively spartan

azbikergirl

I really do look like this.

TMA-1

veinglory

volitare nequeo

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

TMA-1

Kasey Mackenzie

One Hit Wonder?

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

Renatus

Saanen

Euan H.

Unspeakable

Titus Raylake

Sharon Mock

Wing nut

triceretops