Piracy Issues

valeriec80 · Aug 15, 2010

Amadan said:
Note that this is very far from valerie's attitude, which seems to be, "Everthing should be free just because."

Quick clarification, and then I'm going to bounce out of this thread, because I think I'm derailing it.

Everything "should" not be free. People "should" get paid for their work. (Also, no one should litter, there shouldn't be female genital mutilation, no one should murder anyone, countries should solve their differences without resorting to violence, etc.)

The problem is: everything is already free. Or not everything, but a lot of digital stuff.

There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle, so as an artist, you've got two options: Be really pissed about it or try to work with it. You can't change it. (After all, we all know that when they killed napster, music file sharing completely stopped.)

Now, I suppose I should feel guilt for "stealing" work from people, but I don't. I don't feel guilty when my friend lets me borrow books from her (even though often, I never remember to give them back), and really file sharing is the same principle. Futhermore, I am part of a generation who routinely downloads music, movies, and TV shows from bittorrent sites. This kind of behavior is integrated deeply into my life. It has been since I was a teenager.

Anyway, if anyone would like to continue having a conversation about piracy, go on and start another thread. I'll participate, but I have to admit, visiting this thread has been giving me nervous-y tummy rumbles ever since everyone got mad at me. So unless people are really interested in debating that, I'll just make my exit here. Continue talking about what the thread is actually about now. Sorry!

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

valeriec80 said:
Quick clarification, and then I'm going to bounce out of this thread, because I think I'm derailing it.

Everything "should" not be free. People "should" get paid for their work. (Also, no one should litter, there shouldn't be female genital mutilation, no one should murder anyone, countries should solve their differences without resorting to violence, etc.)

The problem is: everything is already free. Or not everything, but a lot of digital stuff.

There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle, so as an artist, you've got two options: Be really pissed about it or try to work with it. You can't change it. (After all, we all know that when they killed napster, music file sharing completely stopped.)

Now, I suppose I should feel guilt for "stealing" work from people, but I don't. I don't feel guilty when my friend lets me borrow books from her (even though often, I never remember to give them back), and really file sharing is the same principle. Futhermore, I am part of a generation who routinely downloads music, movies, and TV shows from bittorrent sites. This kind of behavior is integrated deeply into my life. It has been since I was a teenager.

Anyway, if anyone would like to continue having a conversation about piracy, go on and start another thread. I'll participate, but I have to admit, visiting this thread has been giving me nervous-y tummy rumbles ever since everyone got mad at me. So unless people are really interested in debating that, I'll just make my exit here. Continue talking about what the thread is actually about now. Sorry!

I don't know what to say. I'm quite sickened, actually.

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

BenPanced said:
Jeez. Just announce the date already and be done with it. I'll send flowers and a bottle of strychnine.

but will you be the Master of Ceremonies and the DJ? That's what we really want to know.

scarletpeaches · Aug 15, 2010

valeriec80 said:
Everything "should" not be free. People "should" get paid for their work. (Also, no one should litter, there shouldn't be female genital mutilation, no one should murder anyone, countries should solve their differences without resorting to violence, etc.)

And yet you'll freely admit to stealing. Well done you.

valeriec80 said:
Now, I suppose I should feel guilt for "stealing" work from people, but I don't.

So...people should be paid for their work, but you should be allowed to steal?

valeriec80 said:
I don't feel guilty when my friend lets me borrow books from her (even though often, I never remember to give them back), and really file sharing is the same principle.

No it isn't. It really, really isn't. File sharing = thieving.

valeriec80 said:
Futhermore, I am part of a generation who routinely downloads music, movies, and TV shows from bittorrent sites. This kind of behavior is integrated deeply into my life. It has been since I was a teenager.

So you're pulling the "Everyone else does it," excuse?

valeriec80 said:
Anyway, if anyone would like to continue having a conversation about piracy, go on and start another thread. I'll participate, but I have to admit, visiting this thread has been giving me nervous-y tummy rumbles ever since everyone got mad at me.

Probably because you're a thief. You admit to that, and you feel no guilt. Nervous-y tummy rumbles is the least you deserve.

thethinker42 · Aug 15, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
File sharing = thieving.

File-sharing is the equivalent to going to Kinko's and making a copy of a print book. You're creating a duplicate, not just letting someone look at your version of it.

As someone whose book was pirated a week before it was even released? Yeah, can't say I'm too thrilled with the whole "file-sharing" bullshit. Unless someone would like to donate the equivalent of royalties for the hundreds - yes, hundreds - of copies of my book that were downloaded the week before it was even released to the public. And those are only the ones I can account for. God only knows how many more were downloaded after that week, but it was quite high last time I tracked it down.

File-sharing is still stealing. It's still piracy.

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

Thank you both.

Amadan · Aug 15, 2010

valeriec80 said:
The problem is: everything is already free. Or not everything, but a lot of digital stuff.

"Yeah, theft and murder and rape is bad, but it goes on all the time and it's part of our society and lots of people are going to do it anyway, so you might as well just accept it."

Now, I suppose I should feel guilt for "stealing" work from people, but I don't. I don't feel guilty when my friend lets me borrow books from her (even though often, I never remember to give them back), and really file sharing is the same principle. Futhermore, I am part of a generation who routinely downloads music, movies, and TV shows from bittorrent sites. This kind of behavior is integrated deeply into my life. It has been since I was a teenager.

Enormous sense of entitlement, previously noted.

Equating borrowing books with piracy is a fallacy and you know it. It's never been illegal to lend your records or CDs either. When you lend something, only the person currently in possession of the physical item can use it. Making a copy means now you both have one, and there is no incentive for anyone to buy their own.

Anyway, if anyone would like to continue having a conversation about piracy, go on and start another thread. I'll participate, but I have to admit, visiting this thread has been giving me nervous-y tummy rumbles ever since everyone got mad at me.

Good.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 15, 2010

valeriec80 said:
The problem is: everything is already free. Or not everything, but a lot of digital stuff.

There is no way to put the genie back in the bottle, so as an artist, you've got two options: Be really pissed about it or try to work with it. You can't change it. (After all, we all know that when they killed napster, music file sharing completely stopped.)!

You know, this is the most bullshit argument I've ever heard, and I've been dealing with users, undergraduates and servers for over ten years.

It's because of people like you I have to deal with DRM.

It's because of people like you that people like me who run servers have to deal with bullshit lawsuits from the RIA, and rightsholders, and trojans and malware.

You've just about talked me into supporting DRM because of your selfish equivocation, sense of entitlement and basic dishonesty.

valeriec80 said:
I'll participate, but I have to admit, visiting this thread has been giving me nervous-y tummy rumbles ever since everyone got mad at me. So unless people are really interested in debating that, I'll just make my exit here. Continue talking about what the thread is actually about now. Sorry!

My heart bleeds.

Marian Perera · Aug 15, 2010

To me, illegally downloading a copy of my ebook is like going to a bookstore and sneaking out with a copy of my printed book. Either way, the thief may enjoy the book but someone's being stolen from.

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

Queen of Swords said:
To me, illegally downloading a copy of my ebook is like going to a bookstore and sneaking out with a copy of my printed book. Either way, the thief may enjoy the book but someone's being stolen from.

perfect analogy.

theft is theft. a writer spouting and supporting the theft of writing on a writers' site is disgusting.

Tom from UK · Aug 15, 2010

I'd just like to say that I have had published work of mine shamelessly plagiarised and I have never illegally downloaded a book so I think I should be in a position to take the high moral ground here and I just can't.

People write stuff because they want it read. People who steal stuff end up paying later. (I certainly got a lot of business from people who I know had heard of me because they stole my book.)

It happens.

Get over yourselves and stop being so self-righteous.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 15, 2010

Tom from UK said:
People write stuff because they want it read.

Speak for yourself dude; I write for money. I expect to be paid. It's my job. You try telling your plumber that he should work for free.

I am providing skilled labor and expert knowledge. I want recompense in the form of money--or I don't eat, and I really don't think my landlord will except that "figs want to be free," and so does my apartment.

Tom from UK said:
It happens.

Get over yourselves and stop being so self-righteous.

Tell you what; you start having to remove malware from file-sharers off a server, and start writing full time with your income derived from your writing, and I might actually start paying attention to you.

I make my living from writing. I have been producing ebooks for publishers since 1989. I admin a number of servers.

I am therefore screwed over by file traders on three fronts.

I have rather a lot at stake. When someone who essentially brags about file trading appears, they strike me as less than admirable.

It's very hard for me to continually attempt to persuade publishers that DRM is a bad idea, when someone like that pops up and is quite unapologetic about engaging in malicious activity.

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

Tom from UK said:
It happens.

Get over yourselves and stop being so self-righteous.

people write stuff because they want it read.

nice fairy tale.

don't tell me to get over myself.

writers should get paid for their efforts. you're at the wrong place, bucko.

it's not self-righteous.

scarletpeaches · Aug 15, 2010

Tom from UK said:
I'd just like to say that I have had published work of mine shamelessly plagiarised and I have never illegally downloaded a book so I think I should be in a position to take the high moral ground here and I just can't.

People write stuff because they want it read. People who steal stuff end up paying later. (I certainly got a lot of business from people who I know had heard of me because they stole my book.)

It happens.

Get over yourselves and stop being so self-righteous.

I'll be round to your house to take your television later.

Oh, but don't worry. I'll pay for the fridge.

You get the hell over yourself and stop condoning theft.

If you think thieves end up paying for books later, you're living in cloud cuckoo land and saying it's okay to break the law and rip off writers.

Ophqui · Aug 15, 2010

Whats the point of this discussion? Record labels have been having these same conversations for years. Yes its wrong. So is AIDS in Africa. Theres very little that can be done about it unfortunately, best just not to waste too much time talking about it. There are people who will pay for things, there just arent as many now that 'stealing' is so easy. Just goes to show how ingrained morality really is. I wonder how many people would murder if they could do it annonymously without leaving their desks

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

Ophqui said:
Whats the point of this discussion? Record labels have been having these same conversations for years. Yes its wrong. So is AIDS in Africa. Theres very little that can be done about it unfortunately, best just not to waste too much time talking about it. There are people who will pay for things, there just arent as many now that 'stealing' is so easy. Just goes to show how ingrained morality really is. I wonder how many people would murder if they could do it annonymously without leaving their desks

thank you for signing up to AW just to give us this wonderfully astute post.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 15, 2010

Ophqui said:
Whats the point of this discussion? Record labels have been having these same conversations for years. Yes its wrong. So is AIDS in Africa. Theres very little that can be done about it unfortunately, best just not to waste too much time talking about it. There are people who will pay for things, there just arent as many now that 'stealing' is so easy. Just goes to show how ingrained morality really is. I wonder how many people would murder if they could do it annonymously without leaving their desks

I realize you are new. But do try to use English.

The point of this discussion is, frankly, that some of us make our living by writing.

We would like to get paid.

And, as you should have learned in preschool, the fact that it's possible, or that other people are doing it, doesn't render a behavior acceptable.

Marian Perera · Aug 15, 2010

Tom from UK said:
People write stuff because they want it read.

And I publish "stuff" because I want to be paid for it.

If I just wanted my work read, without any compensation, I'd put it all up on the web for free.

People who steal stuff end up paying later. (I certainly got a lot of business from people who I know had heard of me because they stole my book.)

I'm just curious. I have one book out in electronic form at the moment. Could you tell me what exactly these thieves will be paying for once they steal my book? What business will they be doing with me?

I'm genuinely curious. It's not as though they're likely to buy the sequel I just completed, because hey, they can steal that too, presumably with your blessing.

thehairymob · Aug 15, 2010

It may not be acceptable but how do you stop it without hurting those that don't pirate or punish the rest of the internet users. Most pirates don't make money from it they are just looking for something for nothing. I know a friend who has downloaded movies becausse he can't afford to take his family to see them at the picture house. Is he wrong for wanting his kids to see the lastest Disney flick? Should I be taking the high groud and stop being his friend, even though I have been friends for a very long time? Yes I feel for you as you make a living from writing. The rest of us wish we could, but it is an unlikely dream for most of us though a great hobby. Unfortunately Ophqui has a point about the record industry, they have went through this very thing. They started of sell mp3's at the same price as physical records, which led to more people turning to piracy. When the price fell to more acceptable levels which people were willing to pay piracy fell. It has disappeared completely but more people are willing to buy what they want rather than break the law because they see it at a fair price. I think this is going to be a cruel leason that the publishing industry will learn before much longer. I hope I'm wrong though for all the writers that do depend on writing for their living as they may find that they will need to look for another job and we could lose some very good talent to lifes grind.

Marian Perera · Aug 15, 2010

thehairymob said:
I know a friend who has downloaded movies becausse he can't afford to take his family to see them at the picture house. Is he wrong for wanting his kids to see the lastest Disney flick?

By this reasoning, if he can't afford to get them the video game they want, it's all right for him to steal a copy from a store. Because after all, he's not wrong for wanting his kids to have the latest video game.

Perhaps it's the store that's wrong for charging him a price he can't afford?

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

thehairymob said:
I know a friend who has downloaded movies becausse he can't afford to take his family to see them at the picture house. Is he wrong for wanting his kids to see the lastest Disney flick? .

He's not wrong for wanting them to see them. He IS wrong for stealing them. WRONG WRONG WRONG. He's stealing. Who gives a shit what the reason is???!!!

Bubastes · Aug 15, 2010

Do people know the difference between "want" and "need" anymore? I want a lot of things that I can't afford. That doesn't mean I have the right to steal them.

And no, doing it "for the children" doesn't make it right. No one's going to get sick and die without the latest Disney movie.

scarletpeaches · Aug 15, 2010

I can't afford a car. Is it okay to steal one, then?

That parent should've just bloody well said no to his kids, otherwise they'll grow up with a sense of entitlement to that which they can't afford, and a morality which dictates stealing is okay.

KTC · Aug 15, 2010

scarletpeaches said:
I can't afford a car. Is it okay to steal one, then?

That parent should've just bloody well said no to his kids, otherwise they'll grow up with a sense of entitlement to that which they can't afford, and a morality which dictates stealing is okay.

yeah...they'll grow up stealing e-books off the internet!

Marian Perera · Aug 15, 2010

KTC said:
He's not wrong for wanting them to see them. He IS wrong for stealing them. WRONG WRONG WRONG. He's stealing. Who gives a shit what the reason is???!!!

Great standard he's setting for his children, too. "If you can't afford something and you can get away with stealing it, go right ahead!"

It's a Disney film. It's not food or antibiotics. And there are alternatives. If he can't afford to take them to the theater, wait for it to come out in DVD and borrow it from the library - unless he believes that because he wants it, he has to have it free and he has to have it now?

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