Your writing strength. Are you consistent?

[Nateskate]

This question is as much for experienced writers as it is for novices. I think few stories are perfect from beginning to end. I thought parts of Lord of the Rings dragged. I thought parts of Naria were weak. That said, a great story doesn't mean there is a flawless work. Perhaps the longer the work, the greater the chance for muddy moments. And I used epic fantasy to illustrate this point, which is a higher degree of difficulty write to begin with. Some Genres are harder to mess up!

The smiles and frowns on my face give away that sometimes writing is like a rollercoaster. It's all uphill and othertimes it's a straight shot down.

I put aside a WIP for a time, and when I went back to it I was all smiles and frowns. Some parts seemed brilliant, others made me fell like chucking the whole thing. And since I was editing as I went, my hopes would dwindle and rekindle from day to day.

How many of you have these extremes of emotions when you write? You look at some things and wonder how you could have written it! And you look at others and wonder how you could have written it? Sure that sounds the same, but if you know what I mean, you'll get what I mean. Sometimes you say this in humble awe of what you put on paper, and other times as in horror!

[Jamesaritchie]

Well, I actually think epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to write, but that aside, I never have had a rollercoaster ride where my writing is concerned.

I do, I think, know my strengths and weaknesses. Dialogue and characterization are my strengths, and laziness in narrative is my greatest weakness. I can get lazy and write a bunch of narrative that's very weak. So this is where I have to really watch what I'm doing.

I'm human, so there are times when I read a passage and think, "Dang, that's pretty good." There are also times when I read a passage and think, "Whoops, gotta fix that."

I don't think I've ever looked at something I wrote, good or bad, and wondered how I could have written it. I have, at times, written something and had the thought, "Now where on earth did that idea come from?"

What most frequently surprises me about my own writing in when a sentence comes out that I wasn't consciously thinking, and it's not only good, but very good, both in style and content.

Bad sentences are no big deal. Clunkers I can easily fix.

[pconsidine]

For me, it's less a matter of high and low points in a single work as much as it is the concepts that I thought were worth writing about when I was younger that make me cringe. I'm very glad to have outgrown my navel-gazing youth and to have matured enough to know when a story is worth writing about.

[Nateskate]

Well, I actually think epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to write, but that aside, I never have had a rollercoaster ride where my writing is concerned.

I don't think I've ever looked at something I wrote, good or bad, and wondered how I could have written it. I have, at times, written something and had the thought, "Now where on earth did that idea come from?"




I've tried my hand at murder mysteries and such, and for me the Epic Fantasy was the hardest, but in some ways it was because of the scope and depth. It may well be that you are right, and I'm just not acquainted with enough Epic Fantasy to know the difference.

[Nateskate]

For me, it's less a matter of high and low points in a single work as much as it is the concepts that I thought were worth writing about when I was younger that make me cringe. I'm very glad to have outgrown my navel-gazing youth and to have matured enough to know when a story is worth writing about.

Perhaps I'm not explaining my question very well. For me, its not about a good or bad story. In fact, the better the story, the more likely someone will run into a snag.

For instance, you might have the great mystery, and there might be a clunky chapter. The complexity of what you try to accomplish makes it the sweeter if you can pull it off.

Example, when you have wars in your novel, there is an art to being just right. Too little or too much, and you've ruined the whole thing. Now, there may be romance, suspense, and all sorts of wonderful characters in and out of your story, but there might be one necessary battle that you pine over, because you can't seem to make it work perfectly.

Maybe this is a unique kind of story. Others simply work or don't work as a piece, and its not like connected parcels where some parts seem to work well, and others seem a struggle.

[StoryG27]

When I revist my backlog of material, I definitely go through the rollercoaster. I'm always amazed, either because it seems too brilliant for me, or because it's so boring when I thought it was intriguing while writting it. I really didn't know what my strengths were until I entered a contest and all three judges said that my handle on emotion is wonderful and I am a 'master' of dialouge. One (a published author) even went so far as to say she wished she could write dialouge as natural and flowing as mine. I nearly keeled over. I never thought of my dialouge as a strong point...never really thought anything about it to tell you the truth.

So when re-reading your work, remeber it's ok to kill your darlings, but if the whole book starts to feel boring and old, you might just need a break from it...if you're like me, it could be because you've already read the dang thing five times and are just getting sick of it.

The one constant for me...I'm never satisfied.

[Nateskate]

When I revist my backlog of material, I definitely go through the rollercoaster. I'm always amazed, either because it seems too brilliant for me, or because it's so boring when I thought it was intriguing while writting it. I really didn't know what my strengths were until I entered a contest and all three judges said that my handle on emotion is wonderful and I am a 'master' of dialouge. One (a published author) even went so far as to say she wished she could write dialouge as natural and flowing as mine. I nearly keeled over. I never thought of my dialouge as a strong point...never really thought anything about it to tell you the truth.

So when re-reading your work, remeber it's ok to kill your darlings, but if the whole book starts to feel boring and old, you might just need a break from it...if you're like me, it could be because you've already read the dang thing five times and are just getting sick of it.

The one constant for me...I'm never satisfied.

When I write something, I may have an inspiring idea, but may have written it poorly. I don't know until I've reworked it a bit. It's like the poem "The Spider Inside Her" that I wrote on the Poetry page. It started out fine, but it wasn't perfect. With a little working, it gets better.

But when you multiply that times pages and chapters, you either read it bits and parts, and then as a whole, or you tend to be a little less critical.

One of the challenges I faced with this book was making it sound fast-paced, when writing in a mythological style.

There is an art in sounding ancient without using old english. For instance, you can't say, "Can't". You have to say, "He cannot..." And you have to weave in a great deal of metaphor. It can't read like a newspaper account. You can't say, "The beast grabbed him and ripped his limbs off." You have to say something like, "The wild beast's arm grew up around him like fast growing vine. It clung with a searing weight, ripping away flesh from his limb...

[victoriastrauss]

Well, I actually think epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to writeHmmm. Why is that?

- Victoria

[victoriastrauss]

How many of you have these extremes of emotions when you write? You look at some things and wonder how you could have written it! And you look at others and wonder how you could have written it? Sure that sounds the same, but if you know what I mean, you'll get what I mean.I don't have the "how could I have written it" reaction at either extreme--bad or good--because over the years I think I've acquired as solid a grasp of my weaknesses as of my strengths. I know where I tend to go wrong, and why, and how to recognize it; ditto for going right (on a scene-by-scene basis, that is; the big picture is harder to judge).

I know what you mean about the love-it-one-moment, chuck-it-the-next response, though. I don't know if every writer goes through this, but I certainly do. There are things in all my books that make me cringe--I hate reading page proofs, because at that point you can't really change anything. However, I've learned to trust that many of the things I obsess over are invisible to the reader, who is reading the text much differently than I am. All I can do is to try and do my best. And there's always the next book to do better!

- Victoria

[E.G. Gammon]

Well, I actually think epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to write
Hmmm. Why is that?
I was about to ask the same thing. I assumed that an epic fantasy was one of the HARDEST to write, because you are creating an entire world, with MANY characters, new rules, new principles and values, new creatures/beings even... And more often than not, the story told in the novel(s) has depth, is multi-layered and complex - EPIC. That's why most epic fantasies turn out to be either 800 page door-stoppers, trilogies, or an extensive novel series. The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter definitely weren't written overnight.

My unfinished 5-novel epic fantasy series has taken me almost eight years just to fully develop the plot and its 80+ characters... Please explain why you think epic fantasy has the lowest degree of difficulty to write.

[aruna]

The one constant for me...I'm never satisfied.

Same here! I am good at dialogue and characterization, emotion and creating empathy - immaterial things. Making the reader feel, even draw tears. I am worst at description. I absolutely hate having to describe anything - whether it's the way someone looks, a landscape, a room, a tree... I just don't like dealing with factual things.

That's because words can never adequately put across what I see.
However, I do believe that they don't have to create an exact replica in the reader's mind. I believe that if the writer knows is very clear and confident about her own vision, somehow the words she uses will create pictures in the reader's mind, summoning up images from his own subconscious so that a new picture is cretaed. It probably isn't the same as the writer's but what the heck!
Yet still, I am always dissatisfied. That's why I took only 2 months to write my WIP, but 9 months to revise it!

[KTC]

That's the same with me, Aruna. I go back and read and realize my characters were here and there...but the here and there were so vague...void of description. It's like they're wandering through nothingness sometimes. Sure, they're having great conversations...and they're fully realized...but they could be on the moon or sitting in the bathtub facing each other for all the sense of place and description. I too spend a lot of time filling in the details on the re-write. It's like filming a movie without the props and then going in and putting them in digitally later. It frustrates me and the more I am aware of this the more I try to slow down and develop it in one stage...but old habits die hard.

[Nateskate]

I don't have the "how could I have written it" reaction at either extreme--bad or good--because over the years I think I've acquired as solid a grasp of my weaknesses as of my strengths. I know where I tend to go wrong, and why, and how to recognize it; ditto for going right (on a scene-by-scene basis, that is; the big picture is harder to judge).

I know what you mean about the love-it-one-moment, chuck-it-the-next response, though. I don't know if every writer goes through this, but I certainly do. There are things in all my books that make me cringe--I hate reading page proofs, because at that point you can't really change anything. However, I've learned to trust that many of the things I obsess over are invisible to the reader, who is reading the text much differently than I am. All I can do is to try and do my best. And there's always the next book to do better!

- Victoria

I'm growing as a writer, which is probably caused by re-reading. So, my standards keep changing. One day I thought, "Either I was deluded and stunk, or I'm becoming much better?" I'd go over past writing and thought of a better way to say everthing.

Someday I hope to be at that point where I can nail it the first time the pen hits the paper. The funny part is that people liked my first drafts, which I am now mortified to show.

As far as the complexity of Epic Fantasy, I think it depends on the approach. Narnia was simple. Lord of the Rings was hard. The Silmarillion is the gold standard in my mind, but it was hard to read, and probably a nightmare to write. It took a lifetime.

[Nateskate]

I was about to ask the same thing. I assumed that an epic fantasy was one of the HARDEST to write, because you are creating an entire world, with MANY characters, new rules, new principles and values, new creatures/beings even... And more often than not, the story told in the novel(s) has depth, is multi-layered and complex - EPIC. That's why most epic fantasies turn out to be either 800 page door-stoppers, trilogies, or an extensive novel series. The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter definitely weren't written overnight.

My unfinished 5-novel epic fantasy series has taken me almost eight years just to fully develop the plot and its 80+ characters... Please explain why you think epic fantasy has the lowest degree of difficulty to write.

I'm glad I have company. What people don't realize is that a change in an Epic Fantasy is always major. In a Romance, I can change one chapter and that's that. Or I can change a name of a character. But in a fantasy where you have inter-related plots weaving through a series, you have to sometimes do massive re-writes.

In the "Tell All"- hopes that someday comes- I will explain some of the nightmares that happened along the way.

I had finished books one and two entirely, and was midway through book three. I had a pro editor look at book one before I anticipated sending it out, and got her recommendations at the same time an agent asked for a partial. She recommended adding a strong female character. There was one, but she was not human. Still, I thought, "The editor is a female with a Ph.D in Medieval lit. Most readers are female. Now that I'm leaning toward the YA bin, a higher percentage will be female. She's right...a strong female is a smart idea..."

I had a deadline to make a drastic change. In two days I added over ten thousand pages to the book including a few relative characters, and shipped it out. Since they only wanted several chapters, I threw this character into the front end and made her the catalyst of the story.

[britwrit]

Yeah - that's my fantasy too. One day I'll be such a fluent writer that I'll outline a novel, sit down at the computer and six months later, presto... a masterpiece!

Unfortunately, unless you're a genius, you're always going to have those first draft blues. Some sections will be good-to-great, parts which you'll be able to slot right into the final work, and others will be unreadible dreck.

[Nateskate]

Same here! I am good at dialogue and characterization, emotion and creating empathy - immaterial things. Making the reader feel, even draw tears. I am worst at description. I absolutely hate having to describe anything - whether it's the way someone looks, a landscape, a room, a tree... I just don't like dealing with factual things.

That's because words can never adequately put across what I see.
However, I do believe that they don't have to create an exact replica in the reader's mind. I believe that if the writer knows is very clear and confident about her own vision, somehow the words she uses will create pictures in the reader's mind, summoning up images from his own subconscious so that a new picture is cretaed. It probably isn't the same as the writer's but what the heck!
Yet still, I am always dissatisfied. That's why I took only 2 months to write my WIP, but 9 months to revise it!

Try writing in mythological style. Metaphors and Allegories oh my!

"His eyes were white hot with anger, kindled by a flaming lust for vengeance that possessed his heart and would not be quenched..."

"She drank from the poisoned wells of bitterness...and a thought flew into her heart, as cold and calculating as a raven standing over a fallen carcass"

[azbikergirl]

Gosh. Strengths = characterization and dialog, so I've been told.
Weaknesses = setting. I forget to put it in.

But I need work on pretty much everything.

[Jamesaritchie]

I was about to ask the same thing. I assumed that an epic fantasy was one of the HARDEST to write, because you are creating an entire world, with MANY characters, new rules, new principles and values, new creatures/beings even... And more often than not, the story told in the novel(s) has depth, is multi-layered and complex - EPIC. That's why most epic fantasies turn out to be either 800 page door-stoppers, trilogies, or an extensive novel series. The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter definitely weren't written overnight.

My unfinished 5-novel epic fantasy series has taken me almost eight years just to fully develop the plot and its 80+ characters... Please explain why you think epic fantasy has the lowest degree of difficulty to write.

For exactly the reasons you state. In epic fantasy, you get to make up the world and the rules. This makes it very difficult for anyone to say you got them wrong. Of all the genres I read, fantasy is the one where, to me, the writing can be poor, and often is, the story can be a barely disguised Tolkien clone, and the book can still be published.

It strikes me that what epic fantasy writers need isn't exceptional writing skills so much as a triple dose of imagination. I think the hard part of epic fantasy is not the writing, but being able to conceive a world and characters that are both unique and entertaining.

With the exception of two or three writers, I've pretty much given up reading fantasy novels because I can rarely tell one from another, either in style or substance. I like novels wherein a can read a page or two at random, and know from those pages who wrote it. I also like novels wherein I find something new, something that hasn't been done before, either in character or plot. I rarely find either of these things in epic fantasy.

When I do, it makes for wonderful reading, but it just doesn't happen very often in epic fantasy.

Personally, I think good science fiction is far harder to write than epic fantasy. You still need the imagination, you don't get to invent you own rules, and the writing demands are just plain tough. I think the old platitude that states "If you can write science fiction that sells, you can write anything" is absolutely true.

Now, I don't think writing pubishable fiction in any genre is easy, but for my taste, at least, epic fantasy is where I see the most bland writing, the most "sameness" in story and character, and the biggest lack of original ideas.

I do like quite a bit of fantasy outside the epic sector, but I really have given up on epic fantasy.

[Nateskate]

For exactly the reasons you state. In epic fantasy, you get to make up the world and the rules. This makes it very difficult for anyone to say you got them wrong. Of all the genres I read, fantasy is the one where, to me, the writing can be poor, and often is, the story can be a barely disguised Tolkien clone, and the book can still be published.

It strikes me that what epic fantasy writers need isn't exceptional writing skills so much as a triple dose of imagination. I think the hard part of epic fantasy is not the writing, but being able to conceive a world and characters that are both unique and entertaining.

With the exception of two or three writers, I've pretty much given up reading fantasy novels because I can rarely tell one from another, either in style or substance. I like novels wherein a can read a page or two at random, and know from those pages who wrote it. I also like novels wherein I find something new, something that hasn't been done before, either in character or plot. I rarely find either of these things in epic fantasy.

When I do, it makes for wonderful reading, but it just doesn't happen very often in epic fantasy.

Personally, I think good science fiction is far harder to write than epic fantasy. You still need the imagination, you don't get to invent you own rules, and the writing demands are just plain tough. I think the old platitude that states "If you can write science fiction that sells, you can write anything" is absolutely true.

Now, I don't think writing pubishable fiction in any genre is easy, but for my taste, at least, epic fantasy is where I see the most bland writing, the most "sameness" in story and character, and the biggest lack of original ideas.

I do like quite a bit of fantasy outside the epic sector, but I really have given up on epic fantasy.

You make a good argument. And perhaps it's only a matter of which way you look at it. Fantasy clones are a problem in the industry. People buy them, so they exist. I suppose it would be much easier to follow a formula, then I wouldn't see it the way I do.

Elf meets dwarf. Slays dragon. Turns into a vampire. Saves the world.

So, perhaps you are right. But I generally like the roots and not the branches. And if you look at the "first" of anything as a root, then creating a root-Epic Fantasy vs a branch-Epic Fantasy, is different.

My life would be so much easier if I placed everything in the fifth age of Arda. It would be easier to use "Elves", but it would be like star trek. It was cutting edge to a point, until you ended with the Klingon Extreme Makeover episodes.
So now that I've coined my own language, a Root-Epic is a hard task. I had to write an entire book and add it to the front end of the story. That added a year to the project.

[victoriastrauss]

Now, I don't think writing pubishable fiction in any genre is easy, but for my taste, at least, epic fantasy is where I see the most bland writing, the most "sameness" in story and character, and the biggest lack of original ideas.I think that "I don't find much epic fantasy that engages me" is quite different from "I think that epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to write". The first is an expression of personal taste; the second is a critical judgment. I think one should be careful not to confuse the two. (I have the same reaction when people rail about how many "bad" books get published, when what they really mean is "books I didn't like"; or when people assume that writing children's fiction is "easier" than writing adult fiction because it's shorter and aimed at non-adults.)

IMO, writing epic fantasy is very similar to writing historical fiction, and presents very similar challenges and difficulties.

In epic fantasy, you get to make up the world and the rules. This makes it very difficult for anyone to say you got them wrong.That doesn't make it easier. It just makes it different.

This is a common prejudice, though. As my aunt said when I was describing the research I did for my current duology, "But it's fantasy! Can't you just make it all up?" "Yes," I told her, "but the invention has to be based on something--and once you're done, you're as bound by your invented reality as a real-world novelist is by her 'real' reality." You can get it wrong, in other words, within the context you establish; and readers can call you on it.

Besides, what novelist writing about the "real" world doesn't also to some degree invent his/her setting and the rules that go with it?

- Victoria

[Jamesaritchie]

I think that "I don't find much epic fantasy that engages me" is quite different from "I think that epic fantasy has perhaps the lowest degree of difficulty to write". The first is an expression of personal taste; the second is a critical judgment. I think one should be careful not to confuse the two. (I have the same reaction when people rail about how many "bad" books get published, when what they really mean is "books I didn't like"; or when people assume that writing children's fiction is "easier" than writing adult fiction because it's shorter and aimed at non-adults.)

IMO, writing epic fantasy is very similar to writing historical fiction, and presents very similar challenges and difficulties.

That doesn't make it easier. It just makes it different.

This is a common prejudice, though. As my aunt said when I was describing the research I did for my current duology, "But it's fantasy! Can't you just make it all up?" "Yes," I told her, "but the invention has to be based on something--and once you're done, you're as bound by your invented reality as a real-world novelist is by her 'real' reality." You can get it wrong, in other words, within the context you establish; and readers can call you on it.

Besides, what novelist writing about the "real" world doesn't also to some degree invent his/her setting and the rules that go with it?

- Victoria

You may be right, but at least from my persepctive, the writing quality in most published epic fantasy is pretty darned low, and so much of it all sounds alike.

There are certainly difficult aspects to writing any type of fiction, but the overall quality of the writing itself seems lowest in epic fantasy. It strikes me as more a genre of the imagination, rather than a genre where being able to write well is important.

This may, indeed, be no more than my taste in writing, but it still strikes me this way.

[Nateskate]

You may be right, but at least from my persepctive, the writing quality in most published epic fantasy is pretty darned low, and so much of it all sounds alike.

There are certainly difficult aspects to writing any type of fiction, but the overall quality of the writing itself seems lowest in epic fantasy. It strikes me as more a genre of the imagination, rather than a genre where being able to write well is important.

This may, indeed, be no more than my taste in writing, but it still strikes me this way.

It's a very love it/hate it genre. I call my story a Fantasy* but maybe it is something else?

In truth, I love Mythology blended with Fairy Tales more than what is called pure fantasy. There are fantasy formulas. And that detracts from the whole thing for me. I don't like "Kid wakes up, finds out he has a call and super powers. He screws up, then figures things out and saves the world."

And if you are going to write another chapter of Lord of the Rings, it had better be a chapter worthy of the story, and not "The day the Elves hit vegas." I say that in the sense that you fast forward a generation and just make up some new reason for a war, or conquest.

[Nateskate]

IMO, writing epic fantasy is very similar to writing historical fiction, and presents very similar challenges and difficulties.

Besides, what novelist writing about the "real" world doesn't also to some degree invent his/her setting and the rules that go with it?

- Victoria

I'd say that the degree of difficulty is in that there are just many more places to screw up. Most stories fit a single person's lifetime. So, you don't have to create a sense of history, or a sense that there are a thousand other stories tucked away along the road.

You have to have a basic structure, and rules. But they can't sound contrived. And so, to do it well, you have to present reasons for things without an info dump the size of a city block.

Now add a love story, a murder mystery, secret lifes, and make someone care about the whole thing.

I absolutely see why people "borrow". It saves so much in explanations. But I took a risk and didn't borrow. I had to explain the races, why there were super-races, and small races, and such. It would be so much easier to go with Elves are like this. Dwarves are like this. You can build on what is already there. Tolkien at least used some of the common legends to build upon, although he changed the "picture" of Elves. He gave the Dwarves a history, but they are very much like Dwarves of the legends.

Contrary to popular opinion, Tolkien and C.S Lewis were not unique. They were just very good at gleaning all that went before them, and blending them into new stories. They were unique in that the myths and legends of the past were dormant and nobody else was seeing their relevence.

However, if you look at the Ainur/ Valar- they are a blend of angels and norse and greek gods. If you are well read in mythology, and the Bible, you can see where many of his stories came from. Turin's dilema was from mythology. The fall of Numenor was a combination of the destruction of the pre-deluvian Noachian world, blended with Atlantis and other ancient stories.

Heck, Lewis doesn't even veil his story, because there are no central theological points, like the "rings". In his stories, the kids are the thread that run through the story of Narnia. He just throws in every mythical creature from history, and doesn't even put his own spin on them, expect perhaps the Monopods.

[victoriastrauss]

You may be right, but at least from my persepctive, the writing quality in most published epic fantasy is pretty darned low, and so much of it all sounds alike.I feel that way about women's fiction.

I agree that there's plenty of poor writing in fantasy. But I don't feel there's more of it in fantasy than elsewhere. There's more than enough bad writing to go around, in every genre.

I also think that "bad" writing is a different issue from "easy" writing. I think you could convincingly argue that formula writing--which exists in nearly every genre--is "easier" in some respects than non-formula writing, but I don't think you can make a convincing argument that one genre is intrinsically "easier" to write than another.

- Victoria

[JANE007]

I'm a constant tweaker. For me, the headspace I am in while I am writing has a tremendous influence on how strong (or weak) the writing is. If i'm feeling lethargic, miserable, or bored, my writing tends to reflect that. Alternatively, when my spirits are high and i'm feeling good and confident, my writing kicks butt.

I have written 105 pages so far, and pages 1 thru 60 were re-read about 5 or 6 times. I changed something EVERY time! Finally I decided to move on and go back to it later.

For me the most important thing is that I write period. If it's crap, I know it will inevitably be changed because it will drive me insane if I have a chapter or even a paragraph that doesn't flow like the rest of the book.

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever get it to a publisher (or agent) because I won't be able to let go until I think it's perfect... Which scares me, because what if that is never?!

[Nateskate]

I'm a constant tweaker. For me, the headspace I am in while I am writing has a tremendous influence on how strong (or weak) the writing is. If i'm feeling lethargic, miserable, or bored, my writing tends to reflect that. Alternatively, when my spirits are high and i'm feeling good and confident, my writing kicks butt.

I have written 105 pages so far, and pages 1 thru 60 were re-read about 5 or 6 times. I changed something EVERY time! Finally I decided to move on and go back to it later.

For me the most important thing is that I write period. If it's crap, I know it will inevitably be changed because it will drive me insane if I have a chapter or even a paragraph that doesn't flow like the rest of the book.

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever get it to a publisher (or agent) because I won't be able to let go until I think it's perfect... Which scares me, because what if that is never?!

I'm a tweeker myself. So, I'll write through the first pass with no tweeking or I'll drive myself crazy and never finish. It's important to get something on the canvas.

I think that perfectionists (And I'm hardly perfect) can hamstring themselves. You have to turn a switch that allows you to get ideas down. It may take you several passes until you are ready to publish. But at least then you have something to work with.

There are two vital parts of this writing game. The first is the story. The second is the telling. Writing in stream of thought allows you to get the first part done. Who is your good guy? Who is your bad guy?

I change the story drastically before I even do a grammar edit. What's the use of fixing grammar to parts of the story I'll lop off?

And things change when you read through, at least for me. In story one (Still waiting for agent to get back to me) I made a sympathetic character evil. I introduced a new character days before I sent it to the agent. But at least the story was written.

If you keep fine tuning each page, you may want to delete those pages at some point, and then you will feel more discouraged. So, write like the wind to complete the first draft. Focus more on inspiring thoughts._ Aunt Mildred has a shotgun under the bed-- Why would she keep a gun? Has she ever used it?

[Mistook]

Just last night I re-read what I've written so far of my WIP. The first four chapters are in horrible shape - just a train wreck. But from five through nine, it's great. Then verything comes to a head in chapter ten and I absolutely love chapter ten.

I remember being afraid to write CH10, and spending nearly a month trying to figure out how exactly to approach it, and finally it all became clear and I did suprise myself, in that I never had so much fun writing a chapter, and It came out much better than I could've hoped. After that, eleven through twenty one were a breeze. Every chapter practically wrote itself, and I think I like them even better now than when I wrote them.

I hit another wall at chapter 22. I've been at that wall for months now. I've attempted three versions of it from different points of view, and all of them are garbage. I'm going to hit it again tonight so wish me luck.

But when I say I "love" my results, I'm speaking from a "first draft" point of view. I know there will be plenty to fix, but I can see and feel that the story is there. The characters and settings feel real to me. It may take a few revisions before they feel as real to an anonymous reader, but that part of the work doesn't worry me so much.


I have more to say, but I'll break it up into separate posts.

[Mistook]

Nevermind. I wanted to say something about Fantasy Epics, but... bluh! I'm a big blowhard with nothing much to say.


On a brighter note, I made it six pages into chapter 22, and I'm only stopping because it's past my bedtime. I think I'll be okay for another ten chapters at least. :)

[Nateskate]

Just last night I re-read what I've written so far of my WIP. The first four chapters are in horrible shape - just a train wreck. But from five through nine, it's great. Then verything comes to a head in chapter ten and I absolutely love chapter ten.

I remember being afraid to write CH10, and spending nearly a month trying to figure out how exactly to approach it, and finally it all became clear and I did suprise myself, in that I never had so much fun writing a chapter, and It came out much better than I could've hoped. After that, eleven through twenty one were a breeze. Every chapter practically wrote itself, and I think I like them even better now than when I wrote them.

I hit another wall at chapter 22. I've been at that wall for months now. I've attempted three versions of it from different points of view, and all of them are garbage. I'm going to hit it again tonight so wish me luck.

But when I say I "love" my results, I'm speaking from a "first draft" point of view. I know there will be plenty to fix, but I can see and feel that the story is there. The characters and settings feel real to me. It may take a few revisions before they feel as real to an anonymous reader, but that part of the work doesn't worry me so much.


I have more to say, but I'll break it up into separate posts.

If you have that much right, then keep on going. I had the same problem. It wasn't that I couldn't get chapter one done. It was that I wanted to accomplish so much with chapter one that I couldn't make up my mind how to approach it. So, I had five versions of chapter one. -Flashback, after the fact letter...etc.

[Mistook]

If you have that much right, then keep on going. I had the same problem. It wasn't that I couldn't get chapter one done. It was that I wanted to accomplish so much with chapter one that I couldn't make up my mind how to approach it. So, I had five versions of chapter one. -Flashback, after the fact letter...etc.


I've had too many versions myself, one of which had a flashback, one had a dream sequence, info-dump disguised as a TV interview, you name it, I tried to pull it. And I still don't have one that works.

The problem is there are so many separate backstories that are coming together in the main story. Even getting out the minimal facts necessary to set the story in motion is difficult because once the story is going, there are other threads of other backstories jockying for a chance to get their little facts into the narrative.

There are, I think, seven distinct plot lines that converge at the intersection of my MC.

[Mistook]

I know I'm drifting off the topic here, but after thinking about my last post for a day, I'm starting to think it's not such a bad thing to have multiple plots bearing down on a single character.

I'm starting to realize that the thing that makes Harry Potter so addictive is the never-ending questions that arise out of the stories. You read one book and it all looks this certain way until the end. Then you read it again and see all the blatant clues that you missed, and at the end you're still left with these unresolved issues.

And rather than being put off by it, people take those loose ends and start to speculate. It creates an appetite for the next story, and the whole cycle keeps going.

[Nateskate]

I've had too many versions myself, one of which had a flashback, one had a dream sequence, info-dump disguised as a TV interview, you name it, I tried to pull it. And I still don't have one that works.

The problem is there are so many separate backstories that are coming together in the main story. Even getting out the minimal facts necessary to set the story in motion is difficult because once the story is going, there are other threads of other backstories jockying for a chance to get their little facts into the narrative.

There are, I think, seven distinct plot lines that converge at the intersection of my MC.

You have a creative mind. It's possible you suffer from too many good ideas and want to keep them all in the story. I've written a lot of stories, and all of them weren't hard. The less characters and plot lines, the easier they are to write.

In retrospect, I'd have invested in Microsoft and I'd be filthy rich. With that thinking, I'd also have planned a writing career better. I'd have learned to type young, and then I wouldn't have had shelves of hand written materials. I'd have gotten the first PC they made, and I'd have chosen to begin my career with a simple straight ahead story. But I didn't do that. Instead I decided to invest in a loosely written epic fantasy.

It sounds to me you are starting your career with a hard to write, complex, story. And I think the net impact of that is that instead of realizing you've written a high degree of difficulty story, you might tend to doubt your talents, which I don't.

I've just seen too much of your bits and pieces, and know you have the basic instincts of a good writer.

[Nateskate]

I know I'm drifting off the topic here, but after thinking about my last post for a day, I'm starting to think it's not such a bad thing to have multiple plots bearing down on a single character.

I'm starting to realize that the thing that makes Harry Potter so addictive is the never-ending questions that arise out of the stories. You read one book and it all looks this certain way until the end. Then you read it again and see all the blatant clues that you missed, and at the end you're still left with these unresolved issues.

And rather than being put off by it, people take those loose ends and start to speculate. It creates an appetite for the next story, and the whole cycle keeps going.

I didn't see this post before. But in effect it is the problem that gummed up Tolkien's career. He could have had fifty books, but he couldn't let go of the most complex book he could have written, the Silmarillion.

But he also didn't answer every question or tell every tale. Instead he left clues that there were a thousand more tales to tell. "And no more was said about..." What happened to Beren and Luthien? Who knows. It's an intellectual tease.

Don't get discouraged. Nothing you have done is a waste. You have learned much from what you've invested in your story. But you are right. You might actually take one chapter of your book and if you wanted, stretch it into a single book. That's the problem with high complexity stories. It's like making a buffet that everyone can like, but they'd be just as happy with a pizza. So, sometimes the art is paring down.

Well, I'm one to talk. But I found I couldn't fit my story into one book, or two, or three.

[Mistook]

You have a creative mind. It's possible you suffer from too many good ideas and want to keep them all in the story. I've written a lot of stories, and all of them weren't hard. The less characters and plot lines, the easier they are to write.


You ain't kidding! I have another half written story with a plot that is straight foreward, and the damn thing was writing itself. I put it on the back burner because I want to finish the ridiculously complicated story first. I guess I'm a massochist.

I still don't think there are "too many" good ideas. I think it's just an inherantly compicated story. It's not simply a story out of my head, it's based on real experience... sort of. Real experience, layered over with real daydreams that, at the time, seemed real, and seemed to truly interract with reality.

But I do think most of the advice on this board assumes you're writing a very straightforward, purely imaginary story along traditional genre lines. Said story doesn't mean any more or less to you than any other story that might pop up in your head. It's a simple matter of getting one done and shopping it around. It's not the end of the world if you fail. You just move on to the next. For me, and I presume for you (and perhaps others) it's not that simple.



In retrospect, I'd have invested in Microsoft and I'd be filthy rich. With that thinking, I'd also have planned a writing career better. I'd have learned to type young, and then I wouldn't have had shelves of hand written materials. I'd have gotten the first PC they made, and I'd have chosen to begin my career with a simple straight ahead story. But I didn't do that. Instead I decided to invest in a loosely written epic fantasy.


Hehe! That's what I'm talking about. I wish I could go back and start with something simple, but back then my focus was on being a musician. I struggled with all the same stuff in music I'm facing now. It's so easy to "overproduce" something. It's so easy to lose three years of your life chasing after a masterpeice, but what did I learn?

NOTHING!

All that time, I had this story in my head, and decided I'd wait until it was "ready" to be written. Now, here it's been almost two years and the story that was "ready" is still this big mess. If I had any sense at all, I'd leave it for when I'm fifty. I'd do the smart thing right now and crank off five or ten simple novels to get my carreer up and running.

But Noooo! I'm a damn, Artiste', and I'm suffering under yet another obsession.



It sounds to me you are starting your career with a hard to write, complex, story. And I think the net impact of that is that instead of realizing you've written a high degree of difficulty story, you might tend to doubt your talents, which I don't.


Well, thank you for that! :) You must know what it means to hear a bit of encouragement, and it means a lot coming from you. If there's two people I keep tabs on around here, it's JamesARitchie, and Nateskate. Call me quirky, but I can't miss a post by either of you.

I don't doubt your talents either. You strike me as a very thoughtful writer, who takes everything in to account, even as you "skate" around in this forbidden zone. The scope of your story, the subject matter, and even the writing style are all "dangerous" for a beginning novelist, but from what I can see, you're more than prepared. Like a marine, you're living off the land, and adjusting to every new challenge that the weather presents.


I've just seen too much of your bits and pieces, and know you have the basic instincts of a good writer.

Likewise.

[LloydBrown]

Eh. From time to time.

[Nateskate]

I don't doubt your talents either. You strike me as a very thoughtful writer, who takes everything in to account, even as you "skate" around in this forbidden zone. The scope of your story, the subject matter, and even the writing style are all "dangerous" for a beginning novelist, but from what I can see, you're more than prepared. Like a marine, you're living off the land, and adjusting to every new challenge that the weather presents.



I have no doubt that dozens of people here could tell my story better than I can. In fact, I'm certain you would be one of them. It just so happens to be my story. I don't doubt I have a great story, only whether I can write well enough to do it justice. Some parts are well written, others I'm less excited about.

My doubts are mostly about my judgment. Did I bite off more than I should? Was this the right story? It's just so much work. I'm not fretting about being published. But I feel like I'm in over my head.

[reni]

I'm also a chronic tweaker. (Funny how a word can have so many connotations ...) I read over my work so many times, it all sounds tired and uninspired after a while. I rely heavily on beta readers to make sure what I wanted to get across is what I really got across. Not that I'm insecure about my writing, just that I get so damn sick of reading the same thing over and over again ...

I do often startle myself when I leave a manuscript aside for several months and pick it up again with a fresh eye. I discover the most delightful phrases and language choices in my own work sometimes, if I haven't seen it in a while. LoL!

But, to respond in a roundabout way to the original post, I do know what you mean. Even my all time favorite books have ho-hum passages. Perhaps it's just another indicator of the "writing is life" mentality; we can't all be exciting all the time. Feh.

[Nateskate]

I'm also a chronic tweaker. (Funny how a word can have so many connotations ...) I read over my work so many times, it all sounds tired and uninspired after a while. I rely heavily on beta readers to make sure what I wanted to get across is what I really got across. Not that I'm insecure about my writing, just that I get so damn sick of reading the same thing over and over again ...

I do often startle myself when I leave a manuscript aside for several months and pick it up again with a fresh eye. I discover the most delightful phrases and language choices in my own work sometimes, if I haven't seen it in a while. LoL!

But, to respond in a roundabout way to the original post, I do know what you mean. Even my all time favorite books have ho-hum passages. Perhaps it's just another indicator of the "writing is life" mentality; we can't all be exciting all the time. Feh.

Kindred spirit. It sounds like we think alike. The fact that you find the most delightful phrases means your writing has a spark in it. I wonder if enough published authors can say the same?

But there does come that point of over-saturation with editing and revising.

[reni]

The fact that you find the most delightful phrases means your writing has a spark in it.

It does give me hope. LoL! When I can come back to one of my own stories and be surprised and engaged, when I can in fact read with a fresh eye and forget for a time that I wrote it, it makes me very optimistic about the submissions process. :) Something to strive for, anyway.

[aspiringwriter]

My problem is I can never stick with one thing. I have tons of story ideas but my mind wants to put them ALL in one... I know that's not humanly possible...:) Then again it might be!! Hmmmm....who knows.