Would this automatically be classified as UF?

Caitlin Black · Jul 30, 2010

Hi. Okay, so I've got a book (well, actually, I've got 2 books) that are set in the real world, but there are elements of fantasy in each. The first one is riddled with magic. The second one (different series altogether) just has a magical-realism mythology to it, though not specifically "magic" except in the case of body-swapping, dream-walking, etc. But no fireballs or anything like that...

So, the first one! I'm pretty clueless about what gets defined as UF - in my mind it's all just different shades of fantasy, and damned if I know what constitutes Urban or whatnot. But because that book is set in the real world, with mobile phones, cars, etc. AND loads of magic, is it automatically Urban Fantasy?

I think I'm being thrown by the presumption that UF has to be low-grade tech and apocalyptic sort of stuff (which I now believe is what they call "Steampunk" - correct me if I'm wrong...).

But is my book UF simply because it's modern day technology and magic thrown together?

The second book is a SF/F cross thriller... still present day, and elements of both SF and F. Should I be marketing this one as an UF thriller?

I'm about ready to seriously start querying these books, and if I know precisely what to label them as, that'd make my job so much easier...

When I wrote them, I didn't think about genres... I just thought, "Hey, this would be a cool story!" and wrote it.

Any help you can provide would be muchly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

ejaycee · Jul 30, 2010

I'd say they're both Urban Fantasy, but a word of advice: don't try to market things as sf/f crossovers. The fantasy fans won't won't to read sci-fi, the sci-fi fans won't want to read fantasy, and only a minority would pick it up.

Urban fantasy is called Urban Fantasy precisely because it's in your everyday urban setting, or at least the modern world. The presumption you mentioned sounds more... Well, I don't know what it sounds like. Steampunk, I suppose, but if you add fantasy elements... Is that steampunk fantasy? Is there even a genre for that? You've confused me, but I hope I've managed to answer your question.

Caitlin Black · Jul 31, 2010

Thanks.

*reminds self to NOT write "Sci-Fi/Fantasy crossover" on query*

ejaycee · Jul 31, 2010

No worries, mate. Glad to help.

WritingDemons · Jul 31, 2010

Cliff Face said:
Hi. Okay, so I've got a book (well, actually, I've got 2 books) that are set in the real world, but there are elements of fantasy in each. The first one is riddled with magic. The second one (different series altogether) just has a magical-realism mythology to it, though not specifically "magic" except in the case of body-swapping, dream-walking, etc. But no fireballs or anything like that...

So, the first one! I'm pretty clueless about what gets defined as UF - in my mind it's all just different shades of fantasy, and damned if I know what constitutes Urban or whatnot. But because that book is set in the real world, with mobile phones, cars, etc. AND loads of magic, is it automatically Urban Fantasy?

I think I'm being thrown by the presumption that UF has to be low-grade tech and apocalyptic sort of stuff (which I now believe is what they call "Steampunk" - correct me if I'm wrong...).

But is my book UF simply because it's modern day technology and magic thrown together?

The second book is a SF/F cross thriller... still present day, and elements of both SF and F. Should I be marketing this one as an UF thriller?

I'm about ready to seriously start querying these books, and if I know precisely what to label them as, that'd make my job so much easier...

When I wrote them, I didn't think about genres... I just thought, "Hey, this would be a cool story!" and wrote it.

Any help you can provide would be muchly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

First, I want to tackle that bolded statement:

If you think that's a common presumption about UF, you haven't been reading enough of it. I can think up at least half a dozen authors off the top of my head that write UF with modern technology. Actually, most of the UF I've read is has modern technology and no apocalyptic elements. That's another sub-genre entirely.

I disagree with ejaycee about the sf/f cross. I'm a died hard fantasy-UF fan, and I've read plenty of well written fantasy novels with science fiction elements. Or vice versa. That being said, a well written cross over could bring readers from BOTH genres.

Remember the big rule of the writing world: Anything can be sold if it is written well. Maybe not just well, but amazingly.

Good luck with the Qs!

ETA: Steampunk is still one of those genres that's being fleshed out, but USUALLY a steampunk novel is set in an era without much technological advances, and is populated with steam powered machines. Think of the movie Wild, Wild, West. That's a great example of steampunk.

Caitlin Black · Jul 31, 2010

Okay, cool.

Yeah, my *very first* idea about UF was the whole low-tech, apocalyptic stuff - don't know *where* I got that from, though... *shrug*

At the time of posting the thread, I was pretty certain that definition did not fit UF.

As per what I read - I've got about 30 books that are fantasy stories that happen to be set in the modern world, and considering I only own about 100 books, and a fair portion of those are non-fiction, I'd say I read a fair amount of UF. All my books have been bought in the last year and a half, also... didn't have the money for books before then.

*watches dog go nuts*

And thanks for the well-wishes for my queries!

defcon6000 · Aug 1, 2010

ejaycee said:
I'd say they're both Urban Fantasy, but a word of advice: don't try to market things as sf/f crossovers. The fantasy fans won't won't to read sci-fi, the sci-fi fans won't want to read fantasy, and only a minority would pick it up.

So what would you call a sci-fi story with fantasy elements in it (and vice-versa)?

ejaycee · Aug 1, 2010

defcon6000 said:
So what would you call a sci-fi story with fantasy elements in it (and vice-versa)?

It depends on the context, I suppose. A fantasy story with sci-fi elements is easier, as although fantasy focuses on the magical and unexplainable, that doesn't mean that what's logical in our world doesn't apply there as well. So it's all well and good, I just wouldn't call it a mixture of fantasy and sf. It's still fantasy even if they have aliens and more advanced technology, so long as the science-fiction elements don't overtake it.

As for a story that's predominantly science-fiction, that one's a bit tougher. There is a realm of science-fiction I'd call science-fantasy--even though it gets called as sci-fi--which includes Doctor Who and other similar stories. So it is possible.

Look at the recent movie Avatar. There are definitely fantasy elements within that--yet it gets marketed purely as science fiction. It's a common thing to genre-bend, I just wouldn't call attention to it with sci-fi and fantasy.

Bear in mind this is all just my opinion, but I really do advise against marketing it as both.

defcon6000 · Aug 1, 2010

Hmm, that's interesting. And thanks for answering that.

I just wonder though, if you market a sci-fi with fantasy elements in it as purely sci-fi, if someone picking up thinking it was purely sci-fi would be disappointed to find it had fantasy in it. And the same for a fantasy that had some sci-fi elements in it.

ejaycee · Aug 1, 2010

No worries.

Hm, remember, a lot of things that go under the label of science-fiction have fantasy elements, sometimes quite blatantly. Doctor Who, Avatar, even Star Wars and Star Trek--and yet no-one calls them fantasy-sci-fi hybrids. It all depends on how hardcore you're getting. Orson Scott Card's Ender series is what I'd describe as fairly hardcore, so is Ian Bank's Player Of Games. But Star Wars has the force, Avatar has Eywa, and Doctor Who and Star Trek are... well... they're Doctor Who and Star Trek. Not much else that can be said.

And yes, I know that I gave movie and tv series examples for one and books for the other. I just can't think of any book examples off the top of my head right now.

On the fantasy side of things, it depends on how well they're mixed together. If you have a typical fantasy-style village that suddenly has a flying saucer land in the field, I can understand some disappointment. If you have what is basically a highly technologically-evolved fantasy setting, I think you can get away with it. In fact, I think it would be fascinating. Even fantasy worlds have to evolve past the medieval era!

Now that I come to think of it, I want to write both those books. I think the former could well be a glorious satire, and the latter just plain interesting. The gears in my head are grinding.

defcon6000 · Aug 1, 2010

Haha, yeah I know it's fun to think about.

I'm writing a magepunk right now - and yes I know it's not a declared sub-genre, but I don't care!

Anyways, it's set in a the future tech universe, but robots are able to use magic - nothing like Harry Potter, it's the sort of magic you have to learn and be disciplined in. I just didn't want someone picking it up and going "wtf? robots and magic?! NOOOO!" Although I will say the magic usage is very low-key since hardly anyone uses it.

But yeah, if Star Wars and Doctor Who can get away with it, I don't see why I can't. :tongue

ETA: Which reminds me, been watching these HILARIOUS Star Wars reviews. I think there's a lot to be learned from George Lucus's phopas.

ejaycee · Aug 1, 2010

Magepunk? Nice! I think it should made an official sub, it's too cool not to.

Sounds like sci-fi to me! I think I'd look at it as fantasy if the humans had evolved magic, but as they're robots, artificial intelligence, I'd go with science fiction. Maybe. Perhaps. =P I think I'd need to read it to decide. Is their ability to use magic a side-effect of their sentience, or a deliberately worked into their programming by the humans that made them?

defcon6000 · Aug 1, 2010

The magic system that I have worked out was derived by an older species on another world who mathematically calculated these symbols that could transmit thoughts into a reality - ha, yeah that's sounds more sciency than magic. :tongue

Technically, anyone can learn the symbols and how to use them, however there are thousands of symbols and you have to learn each one and how it's meant to be used, which can take a ton of memorization for a human, not to mention all the time spent learning the magic system and humans just find it's not worth it to spend their lifetime at it. Robots aren't limited by a life span, since many can self repair or replace their parts, plus they can store the data and easily access it - no need to sit there and memorize it. So it's just a magic system that appeals more to robots than to humans, but that doesn't exclude humans from using it and I do have a human learning it in the next part.

ejaycee · Aug 1, 2010

Ah! I reckon science-fiction, just belongs of the more lenient areas. Actually, scratch that, it belongs in magepunk. =P

Nice concept--I've certainly never heard of anything like it before. It'd be interesting to see what you do with it.

WritingDemons · Aug 1, 2010

defcon6000 said:
Hmm, that's interesting. And thanks for answering that.

I just wonder though, if you market a sci-fi with fantasy elements in it as purely sci-fi, if someone picking up thinking it was purely sci-fi would be disappointed to find it had fantasy in it. And the same for a fantasy that had some sci-fi elements in it.

To break away from the TV and movies, think Final Fantasy. They use a lot of magic, but also a lot of technology. The blend of magic and tech is extremely well done, I think.

Also, check out the Dark Fire trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Another mix of sci-fi (airships, landing on another planet, guns, etc) and magic (I forget exactly what it is, but the planet has something like ley lines that pick up on peoples fears, creating walking nightmares and makes using tech perilous.)

Tad Williams's Otherworld (Otherland? I forget. It's been nearly 10 years since I've read those) is the flip side. Heavy sci-fi with fantasy elements.

Both have bold elements from each genre, but blend them well together. You might want to consider reading them, just to see that it can be done.

ejaycee · Aug 1, 2010

WritingDemons said:
To break away from the TV and movies, think Final Fantasy. They use a lot of magic, but also a lot of technology. The blend of magic and tech is extremely well done, I think.

Oh, true! I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Caitlin Black · Aug 2, 2010

I've never played Final Fantasy...

*is shunned by everyone*

ejaycee · Aug 2, 2010

That's okay, Cliff. I've only played the super nintendo games.

defcon6000 · Aug 2, 2010

Cliff Face said:
I've never played Final Fantasy...

*is shunned by everyone*

*is shunned too*

Mainly because I never had a PS2, only N64. :tongue

Also, check out the Dark Fire trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Another mix of sci-fi (airships, landing on another planet, guns, etc) and magic (I forget exactly what it is, but the planet has something like ley lines that pick up on peoples fears, creating walking nightmares and makes using tech perilous.)

Oh wow, that reminds me of Outlaw Star, it also had some magic in it, space pirates chanting spells, old technology created by mages, but it was set in space with guns, grappler arms and even ley lines! The ley lines were a bit different, but had that mystical element to them.

Thanks for the recommendations WD, I'll check those out - hopefully my library has them as I am broke.

ETA: It's Tad Williams' Otherland. Just checked.

Caitlin Black · Aug 2, 2010

Hey, *I* never had a PS2 because I was a N64 kid TOO!!!

*reminisces about GoldenEye, followed by Perfect Dark the year afterwards, then Donkey Kong 64 the next year*

Good times.

(I still have the N64, and have played it as recently as last year, when I finished DK64 for about the 12th time since I bought it. I also played PD last year, but wasn't very good at it, compared to when I first owned it and KICKED ARSE, totally. Strangely, when I first bought it, I unlocked almost all the cheats, and finished all but the bonus levels on Perfect Agent, but couldn't finish the 30 levels of multiplayer challenges... last year? I finished every single multiplayer challenge without even trying, but couldn't get any cheats and couldn't get past Special Agent on most levels...

)

defcon6000 · Aug 2, 2010

Good times indeed.

I still say Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire is one of the best games I have ever played. And super smash bros...AWESOME! Actually, N64 is still considered the best platforms for games. I think the Wii may be a good contender in a few years if they focus on some good RPGs for it.

Caitlin Black · Aug 2, 2010

We have a Wii now. We're totally a Nintendo family!

What I liked most about the N64 was the possibilities that opened up when you included the joystick and the Z-trigger. It's the perfect controller for shoot-em-ups. Of course, after several hundred hours of gameplay, the joystick bit takes a beating and isn't as responsive as it used to be... still brilliant though.

But it's so damn hard to find N64 stuff nowadays! If I ever need a new controller I don't know what I'm going to do... but still, the N64 has my favourite ever games, excepting Starcraft, which works on any PC.

Damn, now I want to get it out and play Perfect Dark again! I bought the N64 strictly for GoldenEye, and then within a few months they came out with the "sequel" (ie. same rules of play, same style, etc. just different characters/storyline - totally different franchise) PD, and I almost wet myself. God, I love that game so much!

But IMO you can't go past Donkey Kong 64 for replayability. It doesn't get grating with fast-paced edge-of-your-seat nerve-wracking stuff, but it still holds a challenge, and finding everything is the whole point. It takes hours to finish, especially if you insist on collecting EVERYTHING that counts... and it's so pretty!

Damn it, I really want to play my N64 now!

I also inherited some games from a friend, but I haven't played them all that much.

/ramble

WritingDemons · Aug 2, 2010

Lets see, I have an NES, N64, Cube, and a PS2. My brother has the Super NES, a dream cast, Wii, skinny PS2, and I think his roomies have an Xbox.

Gamers. Who us? Naaaaah. My main game is WoW.

Caitlin Black · Aug 2, 2010

I loved the SNES. That was the first game system I ever owned.

I rocked the socks off of Donkey Kongs 2, 3 and 4, but could never finish the original (with 100% at least...). And Mario! Oh!!! And Mario Kart!!! Way better than MK64, IMO. I was the champion of Mario Kart for miles and miles... seriously, every kid in my class who had ever played Mario Kart played it at my house at one time or another, and I was always victorious. God, I love that game. Don't have my SNES anymore... so sad.

/gamer derail (for now...)

Caitlin Black · Aug 2, 2010

And why yes, I am a lunatic over competition! Thanks for asking!

Would this automatically be classified as UF?

Wild one

knows nothing of your ruined garden

Wild one

knows nothing of your ruined garden

Reclusive doesn't begin to cover it

Wild one

knows nothing of your ruined garden

knows nothing of your ruined garden

knows nothing of your ruined garden

knows nothing of your ruined garden

Reclusive doesn't begin to cover it

knows nothing of your ruined garden

Wild one

knows nothing of your ruined garden

Wild one

Wild one

Reclusive doesn't begin to cover it

Wild one

Wild one