Would this automatically be classified as UF?

[Cliff Face]

Hi. Okay, so I've got a book (well, actually, I've got 2 books) that are set in the real world, but there are elements of fantasy in each. The first one is riddled with magic. The second one (different series altogether) just has a magical-realism mythology to it, though not specifically "magic" except in the case of body-swapping, dream-walking, etc. But no fireballs or anything like that...

So, the first one! I'm pretty clueless about what gets defined as UF - in my mind it's all just different shades of fantasy, and damned if I know what constitutes Urban or whatnot. But because that book is set in the real world, with mobile phones, cars, etc. AND loads of magic, is it automatically Urban Fantasy?

I think I'm being thrown by the presumption that UF has to be low-grade tech and apocalyptic sort of stuff (which I now believe is what they call "Steampunk" - correct me if I'm wrong...).

But is my book UF simply because it's modern day technology and magic thrown together?

The second book is a SF/F cross thriller... still present day, and elements of both SF and F. Should I be marketing this one as an UF thriller?

I'm about ready to seriously start querying these books, and if I know precisely what to label them as, that'd make my job so much easier...

When I wrote them, I didn't think about genres... I just thought, "Hey, this would be a cool story!" and wrote it.

Any help you can provide would be muchly appreciated!

Thanks in advance. :)

[ejaycee]

I'd say they're both Urban Fantasy, but a word of advice: don't try to market things as sf/f crossovers. The fantasy fans won't won't to read sci-fi, the sci-fi fans won't want to read fantasy, and only a minority would pick it up.

Urban fantasy is called Urban Fantasy precisely because it's in your everyday urban setting, or at least the modern world. The presumption you mentioned sounds more... Well, I don't know what it sounds like. Steampunk, I suppose, but if you add fantasy elements... Is that steampunk fantasy? Is there even a genre for that? You've confused me, but I hope I've managed to answer your question. :)

[Cliff Face]

Thanks. :)

*reminds self to NOT write "Sci-Fi/Fantasy crossover" on query*

[ejaycee]

No worries, mate. Glad to help. :)

[WritingDemons]

Hi. Okay, so I've got a book (well, actually, I've got 2 books) that are set in the real world, but there are elements of fantasy in each. The first one is riddled with magic. The second one (different series altogether) just has a magical-realism mythology to it, though not specifically "magic" except in the case of body-swapping, dream-walking, etc. But no fireballs or anything like that...

So, the first one! I'm pretty clueless about what gets defined as UF - in my mind it's all just different shades of fantasy, and damned if I know what constitutes Urban or whatnot. But because that book is set in the real world, with mobile phones, cars, etc. AND loads of magic, is it automatically Urban Fantasy?

I think I'm being thrown by the presumption that UF has to be low-grade tech and apocalyptic sort of stuff (which I now believe is what they call "Steampunk" - correct me if I'm wrong...).

But is my book UF simply because it's modern day technology and magic thrown together?

The second book is a SF/F cross thriller... still present day, and elements of both SF and F. Should I be marketing this one as an UF thriller?

I'm about ready to seriously start querying these books, and if I know precisely what to label them as, that'd make my job so much easier...

When I wrote them, I didn't think about genres... I just thought, "Hey, this would be a cool story!" and wrote it.

Any help you can provide would be muchly appreciated!

Thanks in advance. :)

First, I want to tackle that bolded statement:

If you think that's a common presumption about UF, you haven't been reading enough of it. I can think up at least half a dozen authors off the top of my head that write UF with modern technology. Actually, most of the UF I've read is has modern technology and no apocalyptic elements. That's another sub-genre entirely.

I disagree with ejaycee about the sf/f cross. I'm a died hard fantasy-UF fan, and I've read plenty of well written fantasy novels with science fiction elements. Or vice versa. That being said, a well written cross over could bring readers from BOTH genres.

Remember the big rule of the writing world: Anything can be sold if it is written well. Maybe not just well, but amazingly.

Good luck with the Qs!

ETA: Steampunk is still one of those genres that's being fleshed out, but USUALLY a steampunk novel is set in an era without much technological advances, and is populated with steam powered machines. Think of the movie Wild, Wild, West. That's a great example of steampunk.

[Cliff Face]

Okay, cool.

Yeah, my *very first* idea about UF was the whole low-tech, apocalyptic stuff - don't know *where* I got that from, though... *shrug*

At the time of posting the thread, I was pretty certain that definition did not fit UF.

As per what I read - I've got about 30 books that are fantasy stories that happen to be set in the modern world, and considering I only own about 100 books, and a fair portion of those are non-fiction, I'd say I read a fair amount of UF. All my books have been bought in the last year and a half, also... didn't have the money for books before then.

*watches dog go nuts*

And thanks for the well-wishes for my queries!

[defcon6000]

I'd say they're both Urban Fantasy, but a word of advice: don't try to market things as sf/f crossovers. The fantasy fans won't won't to read sci-fi, the sci-fi fans won't want to read fantasy, and only a minority would pick it up.
So what would you call a sci-fi story with fantasy elements in it (and vice-versa)?

[ejaycee]

So what would you call a sci-fi story with fantasy elements in it (and vice-versa)?

It depends on the context, I suppose. A fantasy story with sci-fi elements is easier, as although fantasy focuses on the magical and unexplainable, that doesn't mean that what's logical in our world doesn't apply there as well. So it's all well and good, I just wouldn't call it a mixture of fantasy and sf. It's still fantasy even if they have aliens and more advanced technology, so long as the science-fiction elements don't overtake it.

As for a story that's predominantly science-fiction, that one's a bit tougher. There is a realm of science-fiction I'd call science-fantasy--even though it gets called as sci-fi--which includes Doctor Who and other similar stories. So it is possible.

Look at the recent movie Avatar. There are definitely fantasy elements within that--yet it gets marketed purely as science fiction. It's a common thing to genre-bend, I just wouldn't call attention to it with sci-fi and fantasy.

Bear in mind this is all just my opinion, but I really do advise against marketing it as both.

[defcon6000]

Hmm, that's interesting. And thanks for answering that. :)

I just wonder though, if you market a sci-fi with fantasy elements in it as purely sci-fi, if someone picking up thinking it was purely sci-fi would be disappointed to find it had fantasy in it. And the same for a fantasy that had some sci-fi elements in it.

[ejaycee]

No worries. :)

Hm, remember, a lot of things that go under the label of science-fiction have fantasy elements, sometimes quite blatantly. Doctor Who, Avatar, even Star Wars and Star Trek--and yet no-one calls them fantasy-sci-fi hybrids. It all depends on how hardcore you're getting. Orson Scott Card's Ender series is what I'd describe as fairly hardcore, so is Ian Bank's Player Of Games. But Star Wars has the force, Avatar has Eywa, and Doctor Who and Star Trek are... well... they're Doctor Who and Star Trek. Not much else that can be said. :)

And yes, I know that I gave movie and tv series examples for one and books for the other. I just can't think of any book examples off the top of my head right now. :)

On the fantasy side of things, it depends on how well they're mixed together. If you have a typical fantasy-style village that suddenly has a flying saucer land in the field, I can understand some disappointment. If you have what is basically a highly technologically-evolved fantasy setting, I think you can get away with it. In fact, I think it would be fascinating. Even fantasy worlds have to evolve past the medieval era!

Now that I come to think of it, I want to write both those books. I think the former could well be a glorious satire, and the latter just plain interesting. The gears in my head are grinding. :D

[defcon6000]

Haha, yeah I know it's fun to think about.

I'm writing a magepunk right now - and yes I know it's not a declared sub-genre, but I don't care! :D
Anyways, it's set in a the future tech universe, but robots are able to use magic - nothing like Harry Potter, it's the sort of magic you have to learn and be disciplined in. I just didn't want someone picking it up and going "wtf? robots and magic?! NOOOO!" Although I will say the magic usage is very low-key since hardly anyone uses it.

But yeah, if Star Wars and Doctor Who can get away with it, I don't see why I can't. :tongue

ETA: Which reminds me, been watching these HILARIOUS Star Wars reviews. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI) I think there's a lot to be learned from George Lucus's phopas.

[ejaycee]

Magepunk? Nice! I think it should made an official sub, it's too cool not to. :D

Sounds like sci-fi to me! I think I'd look at it as fantasy if the humans had evolved magic, but as they're robots, artificial intelligence, I'd go with science fiction. Maybe. Perhaps. =P I think I'd need to read it to decide. Is their ability to use magic a side-effect of their sentience, or a deliberately worked into their programming by the humans that made them?

[defcon6000]

The magic system that I have worked out was derived by an older species on another world who mathematically calculated these symbols that could transmit thoughts into a reality - ha, yeah that's sounds more sciency than magic. :tongue
Technically, anyone can learn the symbols and how to use them, however there are thousands of symbols and you have to learn each one and how it's meant to be used, which can take a ton of memorization for a human, not to mention all the time spent learning the magic system and humans just find it's not worth it to spend their lifetime at it. Robots aren't limited by a life span, since many can self repair or replace their parts, plus they can store the data and easily access it - no need to sit there and memorize it. So it's just a magic system that appeals more to robots than to humans, but that doesn't exclude humans from using it and I do have a human learning it in the next part. ;)

[ejaycee]

Ah! I reckon science-fiction, just belongs of the more lenient areas. Actually, scratch that, it belongs in magepunk. =P

Nice concept--I've certainly never heard of anything like it before. It'd be interesting to see what you do with it. :)

[WritingDemons]

Hmm, that's interesting. And thanks for answering that. :)

I just wonder though, if you market a sci-fi with fantasy elements in it as purely sci-fi, if someone picking up thinking it was purely sci-fi would be disappointed to find it had fantasy in it. And the same for a fantasy that had some sci-fi elements in it.

To break away from the TV and movies, think Final Fantasy. They use a lot of magic, but also a lot of technology. The blend of magic and tech is extremely well done, I think.

Also, check out the Dark Fire trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Another mix of sci-fi (airships, landing on another planet, guns, etc) and magic (I forget exactly what it is, but the planet has something like ley lines that pick up on peoples fears, creating walking nightmares and makes using tech perilous.)

Tad Williams's Otherworld (Otherland? I forget. It's been nearly 10 years since I've read those) is the flip side. Heavy sci-fi with fantasy elements.

Both have bold elements from each genre, but blend them well together. You might want to consider reading them, just to see that it can be done. ;)

[ejaycee]

To break away from the TV and movies, think Final Fantasy. They use a lot of magic, but also a lot of technology. The blend of magic and tech is extremely well done, I think.

Oh, true! I can't believe I didn't think of that. :)

[Cliff Face]

I've never played Final Fantasy...

*is shunned by everyone*

[ejaycee]

That's okay, Cliff. I've only played the super nintendo games. :D

[defcon6000]

I've never played Final Fantasy...

*is shunned by everyone*
*is shunned too*

Mainly because I never had a PS2, only N64. :tongue

Also, check out the Dark Fire trilogy by C.S. Friedman. Another mix of sci-fi (airships, landing on another planet, guns, etc) and magic (I forget exactly what it is, but the planet has something like ley lines that pick up on peoples fears, creating walking nightmares and makes using tech perilous.)
Oh wow, that reminds me of Outlaw Star, it also had some magic in it, space pirates chanting spells, old technology created by mages, but it was set in space with guns, grappler arms and even ley lines! The ley lines were a bit different, but had that mystical element to them.

Thanks for the recommendations WD, I'll check those out - hopefully my library has them as I am broke. :(

ETA: It's Tad Williams' Otherland. (http://www.amazon.com/City-Golden-Shadow-Otherland-1/dp/0886777631/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280741084&sr=1-1) Just checked.

[Cliff Face]

Hey, *I* never had a PS2 because I was a N64 kid TOO!!!

*reminisces about GoldenEye, followed by Perfect Dark the year afterwards, then Donkey Kong 64 the next year*

Good times.

(I still have the N64, and have played it as recently as last year, when I finished DK64 for about the 12th time since I bought it. I also played PD last year, but wasn't very good at it, compared to when I first owned it and KICKED ARSE, totally. Strangely, when I first bought it, I unlocked almost all the cheats, and finished all but the bonus levels on Perfect Agent, but couldn't finish the 30 levels of multiplayer challenges... last year? I finished every single multiplayer challenge without even trying, but couldn't get any cheats and couldn't get past Special Agent on most levels... :()

[defcon6000]

Good times indeed. :D

I still say Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire is one of the best games I have ever played. And super smash bros...AWESOME! Actually, N64 is still considered the best platforms for games. I think the Wii may be a good contender in a few years if they focus on some good RPGs for it.

[Cliff Face]

We have a Wii now. We're totally a Nintendo family!

What I liked most about the N64 was the possibilities that opened up when you included the joystick and the Z-trigger. It's the perfect controller for shoot-em-ups. Of course, after several hundred hours of gameplay, the joystick bit takes a beating and isn't as responsive as it used to be... still brilliant though.

But it's so damn hard to find N64 stuff nowadays! If I ever need a new controller I don't know what I'm going to do... but still, the N64 has my favourite ever games, excepting Starcraft, which works on any PC.

Damn, now I want to get it out and play Perfect Dark again! I bought the N64 strictly for GoldenEye, and then within a few months they came out with the "sequel" (ie. same rules of play, same style, etc. just different characters/storyline - totally different franchise) PD, and I almost wet myself. God, I love that game so much!

But IMO you can't go past Donkey Kong 64 for replayability. It doesn't get grating with fast-paced edge-of-your-seat nerve-wracking stuff, but it still holds a challenge, and finding everything is the whole point. It takes hours to finish, especially if you insist on collecting EVERYTHING that counts... and it's so pretty!

Damn it, I really want to play my N64 now!

I also inherited some games from a friend, but I haven't played them all that much.

/ramble

[WritingDemons]

Lets see, I have an NES, N64, Cube, and a PS2. My brother has the Super NES, a dream cast, Wii, skinny PS2, and I think his roomies have an Xbox.

Gamers. Who us? Naaaaah. My main game is WoW. ;)

[Cliff Face]

I loved the SNES. That was the first game system I ever owned.

I rocked the socks off of Donkey Kongs 2, 3 and 4, but could never finish the original (with 100% at least...). And Mario! Oh!!! And Mario Kart!!! Way better than MK64, IMO. I was the champion of Mario Kart for miles and miles... seriously, every kid in my class who had ever played Mario Kart played it at my house at one time or another, and I was always victorious. God, I love that game. Don't have my SNES anymore... so sad.

/gamer derail (for now...)

[Cliff Face]

And why yes, I am a lunatic over competition! Thanks for asking! :D

[WritingDemons]

You sound like my brother. He's a gaming guru. I haaaaated playing two player games cause he's always kick my ass. Even won a state championship of Soul Caliber (I think.) He plays to win. No matter what he plays.

Like, he got me into WoW, but I got him into raiding because my gear was better than his. Then he naturally had to start trying to beat my healing numbers (which he did with ease, of course.)

So, I don't compete in games. I learned my lesson. xD

[Cliff Face]

I used to compete with my sister, and I think I beat her nearly every time. She wasn't nearly as obsessive as I was with competitions. :P

She preferred to play games where you had to cooperate with each other. I preferred games where there was a winner and a loser. Preferably, games where you have rankings - so sister and I could come first and second, and the computer players could come last. :D

I was also competitive with sports... I HAD to be the best bowler, the best cricket player, the best footballer (Australian Football League or AFL as we call it)... of course, there were other kids who were much better than me at sports, but on the SNES, ho boy, I was a maniac. And later, with the N64, I had several people ask me to help them get cheats on GoldenEye while I was at High School. Like, the Facility level on 00Agent in 2:05. I got that cheat for like 3 people... :P

Damn, I just checked the TV upstairs - and there's not enough Red/Yellow/White slots for my N64, and I checked the TV downstairs - I could unplug the RYW from the Wii, but I can't get at the power point without shifting a massively heavy TV cabinet...

So it looks like there'll be no N64 for me. :(

[Cliff Face]

Just a little "on-topic/off-topic" update. Turns out there WERE enough Yellow/White/Red slots on the upstairs TV, but not enough power points. So today I bought a double-adapter, plugged the N64 in - and it powered up, but wouldn't show anything. Then I realised I could plug it into my computer monitor (duh!) and it still wouldn't work, even though the power light came on. Tried 2 different games, and nada. So tomorrow I'm going out of my way to one of the only places in Adelaide where I can get a YWR cable (as I think that's the part that is broken) for the N64. Joy.

And on-topic - my SF/F mix, I have realised could be described simply as UF without mentioning the SF *because* the SF elements are limited to an AI trying to cause armageddon... and considering I don't explain how the AI got created or how it works (at least not in this book, though there might be room for that in a sequel) then it's more or less a fantasy element anyway - the AI is just there, and the characters have to deal with it. No explanation necessary. Sure, I explain the AI's objectives, but not the sciency part of it.

So I remain an UF writer (even though I didn't realise what I'd written was UF until last week, because I'm not hip to the writing slang, yo ;)).

(Oh, and that N64 cable's going to cost me $20. Damn! But it's so worth it...)

[Satori1977]

I have never played any of those games, lol....*ducks for cover* We do have a Wii though.

I would also be careful about a sci-fi/fantasy crossover. It can be done, but some agents/pubs might shun the idea. And many hardcore sci-fi readers won't go for it. But some will read both.

I would definitely recommend reading lots of UF. And you don't have to go out and buy hundreds of books. That is what a library is for. There are threads on here about good UF books to get you started.

[defcon6000]

Just a little "on-topic/off-topic" update. Turns out there WERE enough Yellow/White/Red slots on the upstairs TV, but not enough power points. So today I bought a double-adapter, plugged the N64 in - and it powered up, but wouldn't show anything. Then I realised I could plug it into my computer monitor (duh!) and it still wouldn't work, even though the power light came on. Tried 2 different games, and nada. So tomorrow I'm going out of my way to one of the only places in Adelaide where I can get a YWR cable (as I think that's the part that is broken) for the N64. Joy.


(Oh, and that N64 cable's going to cost me $20. Damn! But it's so worth it...)
Ouch! I feel your pain. There's some old PC games I can't play anymore, but I really wish I could, because they're not even compatible with the latest Windows.

Oh yeah, my brother lost our KOTOR II game! I paid half for that thing and never got to beat it!:rant:

And on-topic - my SF/F mix, I have realised could be described simply as UF without mentioning the SF *because* the SF elements are limited to an AI trying to cause armageddon... and considering I don't explain how the AI got created or how it works (at least not in this book, though there might be room for that in a sequel) then it's more or less a fantasy element anyway - the AI is just there, and the characters have to deal with it. No explanation necessary. Sure, I explain the AI's objectives, but not the sciency part of it.

So I remain an UF writer (even though I didn't realise what I'd written was UF until last week, because I'm not hip to the writing slang, yo ;)).You could consider it soft sci-fi, you don't always have to explain how things work in the universe. I think that was what made the Dune books so great (and why the Dune pre-quels suck ass), having all these cool abilities with foggy backgrounds. Plus, your reader will have fun pondering the possibilities of the world you've created. ;)



I would also be careful about a sci-fi/fantasy crossover. It can be done, but some agents/pubs might shun the idea. And many hardcore sci-fi readers won't go for it. But some will read both.
I've been looking around Amazon, and there seems to be a good deal of sci-fi/fantasy cross-overs, although most of them will side with one genre or the other, but if you read the back cover it'll give it away that it's a sci-fi with magic or a fantays with high tech gadgets. I saw one book that was futuristic sci-fi with alien overlords and vampires in space. And I consider myself a hardcore sci-fi gal, but I still love magic! Of course I want a sensible magic system with rules and laws, but that just helps to make it realistic. I would however classify my writing as sci-fi, but seeing as sci-fi and fantasy are lumped together in the book store it really doesn't matter in the end. :tongue

[tempered_steel]

Hey, my family owns a Gamecube, Wii, and Playstation 2. We've got the best of both worlds. :)

On topic, though, I've been classifying my WIP as sci-fi/fantasy. I've considered calling it urban fantasy...but I'm not quite sure if that's what it is. I think I'm leaning more toward sci-fi.

So, in my WIP, a group of scientists created a machine that opened a steady portal to a different world. Unsteady portals open randomly across the world (letting out monsters), but this is the first steady one. Humans who stumble into these portal acquire magical sort of powers in the other world and sometimes find their way back to Earth through the portals.

So, I've got the sci-fi element of the machine but then I've got the fantasy element of a different world, monsters, and magical sort of powers. What do you think? Is it sci-fi or urban fantasy?

Thanks for your help!

[defcon6000]

Hey, my family owns a Gamecube, Wii, and Playstation 2. We've got the best of both worlds. :)

On topic, though, I've been classifying my WIP as sci-fi/fantasy. I've considered calling it urban fantasy...but I'm not quite sure if that's what it is. I think I'm leaning more toward sci-fi.

So, in my WIP, a group of scientists created a machine that opened a steady portal to a different world. Unsteady portals open randomly across the world (letting out monsters), but this is the first steady one. Humans who stumble into these portal acquire magical sort of powers in the other world and sometimes find their way back to Earth through the portals.

So, I've got the sci-fi element of the machine but then I've got the fantasy element of a different world, monsters, and magical sort of powers. What do you think? Is it sci-fi or urban fantasy?

Thanks for your help!
Well, where does the action take place? Is it in this alternate world (which sounds like fantasy since the humans gain magic powers) or is it set in the neighborhoods/cities of Earth? I would think of it as a fantasy even with the machine, assuming the magic system is going to take hold and humans are going to be using it. Although it could be kinda like Harry Potter, using magic along side cellphones and dishwashers - I suppose that would constitute as UF.

[Cliff Face]

As per borrowing books from the library - I prefer to buy, anyway, and I've got about 20 books still unread in my pile.

As per looking into UF - I already read a lot of UF. I just didn't *know* I was reading UF until recently, because I had a brainfart where I should've learned what Urban Fantasy (as a genre) *meant* much earlier... But yes, I predominately read "books with a fantastical element set in the modern world". Up until recently I was just calling them Fantasy... *shrug* So no education necessary - it's already my favourite (ie. most read) genre. (With Science NF coming a close second.)

Back to the computer woes - I bought the AV cable today, and hooked it up to my computer monitor (which can act as a TV) and it semi-worked, as in it loaded the game and I could see stuff, but it was all flickering in a completely unplayable way. So I hooked it up to the TV, and got absolutely no signal. Hooked it back up to computer monitor, and this time there was absolutely no signal. So methinks it's the system itself that is fucked, and not just the AV cable... which means I have to look into buying a new one.

But I did find a game store that sells N64 stuff today, only a little bit out of my way. So it's kind of lose/win, whereas I was hoping for win/win/win (the third win being winning at the game I wanted to play ;)) ...

So right now I haz a sad. :(

[tempered_steel]

Well, where does the action take place? Is it in this alternate world (which sounds like fantasy since the humans gain magic powers) or is it set in the neighborhoods/cities of Earth? I would think of it as a fantasy even with the machine, assuming the magic system is going to take hold and humans are going to be using it. Although it could be kinda like Harry Potter, using magic along side cellphones and dishwashers - I suppose that would constitute as UF.


The book takes place on Earth. The main character doesn't have the magical powers, but deals with the villian (who has powers) and a little boy who also has powers...

It's kind of like the book Artemis Fowl. The main character Artemis doesn't have magical powers, but deals with faeries and monsters on a regular basis. But the books also have a strong undercurrent of advanced technology.

So I'm guessing I'll classify it as UF. :)