Switching POVs

I only write in third-person omniscient, so I'm afraid I'm a little unhelpful when it comes to the issue of switching from first to third!

However, third-person omniscient does call for a lot of POV switching here and there! Usually I change it via a chapter break. If my main character is not the center of a chapter, then there's usually a supporting character or villain who is. Occasionally that change happens within a chapter, and in that case I make it very clear who is thinking who at that point. All my characters' "thoughts" are put in italics with a tag as to who's thinking what, so that helps immensely! But you can get away with a lot when it comes to third-person omniscient, so long as you make things very clear for the reader. At least, that's how I feel...

In first person I sooooo want to take a few chapters and turn them into third person to get the other character's POV- i am told this is cheating- can't do and it is jarring to the reader-

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This is what I'm doing in my wip -- alternating first and third POV. But it's not just a couple of chapters, I switch up the pov through the entire ms.

It's probably cheating. It's probably jarring to the reader. But it's also probably just the tip of iceberg when it comes to my litany of writing sins.

There are soooooo many writers who switch POVs. Sometimes without the benefit of a scene break, which should be a kneecappable offense.

I personally like to stick with one or two characters (as a reader), but it's not a dealbreaker. (As a writer I prefer to stick with one character to better torture them for the most amount of time. )

sheadakota said:

... I don't understand why some authors can do this and others can't.

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Because they have paid their dues.

Stephen King can write any way he wants and it will get published. One you get established you can start breaking rules too.

Now in Third person the question is pretty straight forward- how do you feel about switching POVs in the same chapter with a scene break to define the switch?
Do you do it? It depends on whether or not I have multiple POV characters. But usually, I do.
Do you hate it when you read? Not at all. It doesn't bother me one bit.

In first person I sooooo want to take a few chapters and turn them into third person to get the other character's POV- i am told this is cheating- can't do and it is jarring to the reader-

Really? Is it? Kind of. If done right, I'm sure it would be okay, but I wouldn't attempt it.

To be honest, for me it depends on how it's done. In third, depending on how many POVs you have, there is usually at least one that has me going, "Good lord, I've got to read this guy again? Okay, let's get through this as fast as possible so I can get to the good stuff again." If you only are switching between two or three you might be safer, but truth be told I can't recall ever reading a book where there wasn't at least one character I preferred to the others, sometimes to the extent that I'm skimming through.

As for switching from first to third...I think it probably depends a bit more on how the story is told. In my mind, it's probably easier to do if you have a narrator who is in first but not necessarily telling the story, so to speak. That said, I just did it, and my narrator is definitely the storyteller. It's totally cheating, but I did it anyway, and truth be told that one chapter is my favorite part of the whole book so far, and my two alpha readers said similar things. It added a new dimension and gave some good insight, and it was a situation that was very important to the plot and there was no way for the narrator to logically be there for it. I'm also planning to stick a warning on the front of it addressing this specific thing, but my story is so weird I'm hoping I can get away with it.

So yeah, I'd say go for it. If you've got a good reason and think it will add to the story, why not at least try it? I mean, if it doesn't work, you can always go back later and change them, right?

sheadakota said:

In first person I sooooo want to take a few chapters and turn them into third person to get the other character's POV- i am told this is cheating- can't do and it is jarring to the reader-

Yet I have been made to change all third person intrusions in my MS by my editor and while I trust her opinion- I don't understand why some authors can do this and others can't

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I do it in my WIP (almost done, actually). For that exact reason: it allows you to get into the mind of the evil guys and make them rounder and deeper characters. At first I had them scattered throughout but the agent complained that it was confusing, so now I have them in separate chapters and in italics. Tess Gerritsen does it, Jan Burke does it. I'd be weary of anybody that tells you there's only one way of doing things in writing. Writing a novel is an art, and it's up to the writer to make it work. In all arts, critiques have always bashed anyone who's come up with new ideas until he/she proved the new ideas worked.

I write in both third and first person-

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I normally write in close 3rd. I have a WIP that has a mix of 1st and close 3rd. 1st to the MC, 3rd to all the others.

Now in Third person the question is pretty straight forward- how do you feel about switching POVs in the same chapter with a scene break to define the switch?

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Scene breaks are best, but context is the best guide. If the switch is obvious, I - the reader - don't complain.

In first person I sooooo want to take a few chapters and turn them into third person to get the other character's POV- i am told this is cheating- can't do and it is jarring to the reader-

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You need to ask yourself - who's telling the story? Change novel to memoirs - you can't talk about your own life experiences in 3rd without sounding pedantic, can you?

There are exceptions that work well. Take the case of a character who has undergone a life-changing event (memory loss, sex/personality change, etc) and may talk in 1st for their life experiences _after_ the event and in 3rd for their experiences _before_ the event. --OR-- it's evident the first story teller is no longer available /alive and the story telling has been picked up by another character.

Robert Crais does it all the time- I don't find it jarring, I think its a fantastic idea to help the reader understand the baddie and yet maintain the intimacy of first person.

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All of James Patterson's Alex Cross novels are in 1st for the Alex character, 3rd for the others. Works quite well.

Yet I have been made to change all third person intrusions in my MS by my editor and while I trust her opinion- I don't understand why some authors can do this and others can't

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Changing from 1st to 3rd for the same character? Or having 2 distinct characters, one in 1st the other in 3rd? First case is problematic, imho; the second is not.

-cb

I have done this in my most recent manuscript. I tell the brunt of the story (97% or so) in first person because the MC has plenty of quips and comments to make as the action occurs. Then, I bounce back to an observer who talks about what has been seen. The observer was inspired by Rocky Horror Picture Show. I found it to be a challenging part of the manuscript, but I am going to keep it because I don't want to remove parts like that.

One of my favorite writers, John Sandford, switches quite often from the POV of the baddies to the hero and back and does a marvelous job. I tried this recently and several agents passed on me because they said my alternating POVs robbed the story of considerable suspense--I was tipping off readers. I did this hoping to build tension, but in the end I did it too liberally and just robbed the story of suspense. So you have to be careful about it.

As for 1st and 3rd person mashups... if it's a good enough story with characters we care about, you can get away with it. But it's a tougher road to climb, especially for newbie writers like us, so you're making it tougher on yourself but it is very do-able.

Let's face it, if done right anything is acceptable. If the changes in POV were not jarring, if they worked for your first story, the editor would not be asking you to make changes. I don't think you have to pay your dues to get to write the way you want to. I think you just have to do it well. It's not easy to do and there are great writers who I am sure would never make the attempt, simply because they could not do it well.

Crais is good at what he does but there are cringe worthy moments in his stories too. My point isn't to cut down on Crais it is to say to you that nobody is perfect. First Rule has some terrible dialogue in it that makes cliches of cliches... but the story is entertaining and though it isn't high art it's good company at the beach

Play to your positives and only leave your comfort zone if you know in your heart that it WORKS.

I just finished reading Linwood Barclay's most recent novel and found it really jarring when he switched from first person to third person POVs. I don't notice it when an entire novel is written from third person POVs and switches from character to character but I sure noticed it this time.

Glad I did, because it answers my own question about how to proceed. I won't use first person: too hard to get those outside perspectives without slapping the reader a bit sideways. (Linwood is on the NY Times Bestseller list, so if he can't pull it off, I sure as hell can't...)

Peggy Blair said:

Glad I did, because it answers my own question about how to proceed. I won't use first person: too hard to get those outside perspectives without slapping the reader a bit sideways. (Linwood is on the NY Times Bestseller list, so if he can't pull it off, I sure as hell can't...)

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Many people have done it and done it very well. The Hunger Games trilogy springs to mind...

Peggy Blair said:

I just finished reading Linwood Barclay's most recent novel and found it really jarring when he switched from first person to third person POVs. I don't notice it when an entire novel is written from third person POVs and switches from character to character but I sure noticed it this time.

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I recently finished a novel that did this. Wish I could remember what it was called/who by. But I also found it a little jarring. It certainly didn't stop me from enjoying and finishing the book but every time it switched from first to third (the bad guy's POV) it just seemed odd.

sheadakota said:

Now in Third person the question is pretty straight forward- how do you feel about switching POVs in the same chapter with a scene break to define the switch?
Do you do it?
Do you hate it when you read?

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Yes, I do it sometimes when it feels more appropriate than beginning a new chapter.

When reading I often think it is ok. But sometimes when it is done too often, with too short passages, I can get a bit annoyed. Like sometimes when I read The Darkness that Comes Before by Bakker.

In first person I sooooo want to take a few chapters and turn them into third person to get the other character's POV- i am told this is cheating- can't do and it is jarring to the reader-

Really? Is it?

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I don't remember reading any switch between 1st and 3rd POV (outside of literary fiction) so I have no opinion about that.

When it comes to giving chapters to the antagonist, I often find this annoying. It takes away from the mystery, but the worst thing is that I find that it is almost always done badly.

Today I'm reading Legacies by Modesitt. The evil queen is given chapters sometimes and they don't add anything of value. They could as well have been deleted.

The big mistake many writers do when writing about the antagonist is to not treat him as an ordinary main character with motivations, goals and conflicts. If you are to write about the bad guy, you must give him as many problems as the good guy has, and show how he overcomes them, or fails when trying. Then it might be fine. One example of this is the manga series Death Note. Another is the cartoon Avatar: the Last Airbender. I also think Stephen King did this well in the novel The Stand. And GRR Martin also does it well.

I am reading a Nicci French book in which she does this. It's not really jarring because the third POV sections are very short, max 2 pages so far, and they are in italics. However, I don't think she needed to do it because she also has these creepy letters from the baddy, and really, at least so far, that would have been enough. So, I guess, yes, it does bother me as a reader because it feels a bit lazy, in this case. But that could be mostly because I'm also a writer...

Of course it doesn't bother me in my own ms...

I'm doing that with my novel. 905 of the story is first person but I'm adding short chapters in 3rd person in italics for the antagonist. Not often but it seems to work.