Please define grey area between YA and Adult

[PsiScript]

Hi: My, what many would term 'YA paranormal romance,' is 104K words and too edgy for youth under sixteen (in general).

I expect the industry will officially acknowledge (or has already done so) there is a need at the upper scale of YA for mature literature. I read somewhere that they are calling that grey area (between YA and Adult) Crossover. My understanding of crossover was any book that bleeds over into another category.

The readership is there, between YA and Adult, so of course it should be recognized. There is sufficient percentage of adults who never leave YA. I myself, never quite got back on track after having left the YA section. I ran into too much garbage to sift through in the adult section.

And there has been nation-level uproar among parents who find their kids checking out novels in the YA section that are too mature for them.

So, is it official? Is the grey area Crossover? If it is, that may not be definition enough. How about MYA? Mature Young Adult.

[Sage]

Why, let me point out some threads related to edgy YA from our invisible FAQ:

Is my novel too edgy? (including what's acceptable, will it get banned (and is that a bad thing), and whether we have a responsibility to not include sex, drugs, violence, swearing, drinking, etc. without some kind of lesson about it)

Shady's Edgy YA (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71220)
What Constitutes YA Fiction (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98377)
Middle Grade, Young Adult, Adult: How do you categorize your novel? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164605)
Yes, your characters can have sex (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132462)
Pet Peeves in YA lit (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159506)
YA novel with slight homo-erotic overtones (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138431)
May I join the club? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107393) (starting page 2)
Swearing (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57205)
Curse Words in YA....for 10yrs and up --- (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151682)
Teen novels (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35750)
Would this turn off teens (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141584) (about age difference for teen romance)
Should we be aware of the message (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99496)
Edgy or Not? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132446) (is really more about specific WIPs)
I require assistance (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76391) (killing at school done by the protagonist)
Ah, feels good to be home (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68355)
YA Book Banning (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145425)
Homosexual predator (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66650)
YA books (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66835)
YA or just read by YA (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88778)
How much tragedy is too much??? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146759)
The Best (and edgiest) YA out there (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84503)
How dark can YA be? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79596)
Romancing Dilemma (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90450) (homosexuality)
Pops! and Borders (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44882) (sex)
Appropriate or not for Young Adults (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132453) (terrorism)
Edgy YA Fantasy - Any books like this out there? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156569)
YA books involving alcoholism (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39389)

ETA: These do not include the more recent threads (like since March), nor the shorter ones. The top 3 are stickies

[PsiScript]

Thanks for the links. They look interesting. I remember some of them from when I was using this site ?years ago. My question was about the term crossover.

I went searching and this is the first thing I found (a dated article, 4/2007), which is probably what I should have done in the first place, but I really just wanted to generate some discussion:

From hbook.com (The Horn Book: Publications about books for children and young adults)

To be sure, the literary novel was gaining a foothold in YA literature, and it was deeply unsettling to many advocates of teen reading and literature, especially as much of the award attention for these books seemed directly disproportionate to the size, if not the enthusiasm, of their teen audiences. Postcards from No Man’s Land was by no means the first crossover novel (those books that appeal to both teenagers and adults, which could have been published for either market), but its high visibility showcased many of the elements — mature themes, older characters, sophisticated language, and leisurely pacing — that many thought made it more appropriate for an adult audience.

Granted, the article is dated, but it answered my questions! I still think Mature Young Adult would be beneficial as, a short bit ago, there was a report on CNN about some outraged parents (and, I think, some fairly bewildered librarians).

I'm still looking for more mangas for my thirteen year old that lack sexual innuendo. Not that it bothers me so much as it bothers her.

[Kitty Pryde]

What I think they mean by 'crossover' isn't a genre. I think they mean books that are marketed in one category but succeed in others. Like Twilight is crossover because it's published as YA but adults read it. Harry Potter is a crossover series because it's published for kids but teens and adults read it. To pull out a less popular example, "Ender's Game" is published as an adult book, but is wildly popular among kids and teens. Later on, the publisher released a YA edition of the book (and I think a MG edition as well?).

There isn't a magical 'gray area' genre. A book is sold as one genre or another, wherever a publisher thinks it will sell best, then I think it's up to fate whether it because a crossover success. If you aren't sure where it fits best, read more YA and adult novels :D

[inkspatters]

There's this bookstore I shop at that actually has a crossover section. I just had to step into this thread to say that, because I've never seen it before and I was wondering whether it was common. Anyone else seen a crossover section?

To answer the original question: OP, there's very very very little content that would make your book 'too edgy' for YA. Unless the characters are not YAs, the pacing is incredibly slow, the voice retrospective (as in Prep) then I doubt it can't be classified as YA.

[Ryan_Sullivan]

I hate the term crossover because it's one of those things that nobody really knows the meaning/use of. Any book has potential for crossover. I also have to say, being both barely out of my teens and studying contemporary literature extensively, there's not a whole lot of difference in the content. The situations and ages are different, but the book can be just as literary and deep as a mainstream adult one, often more. Also, the age most people target seems to be higher than it actually should be. A lot of "upper YA" is more labeled that way for parent's sake than for the readers. The biggest difference, in my opinion, between adult and YA is that teens won't put up with some of the indulgent things adult authors do. The writing has to be tighter and more to the point most of the time.

[Glenakin]

There's this bookstore I shop at that actually has a crossover section. I just had to step into this thread to say that, because I've never seen it before and I was wondering whether it was common. Anyone else seen a crossover section?

Woah, really? I've never seen that before. That sounds really cool.

I hate the term crossover because it's one of those things that nobody really knows the meaning/use of. Any book has potential for crossover. I also have to say, being both barely out of my teens and studying contemporary literature extensively, there's not a whole lot of difference in the content. The situations and ages are different, but the book can be just as literary and deep as a mainstream adult one, often more. Also, the age most people target seems to be higher than it actually should be. A lot of "upper YA" is more labeled that way for parent's sake than for the readers. The biggest difference, in my opinion, between adult and YA is that teens won't put up with some of the indulgent things adult authors do. The writing has to be tighter and more to the point most of the time.
Not every book has crossover appeal. In fact, most don't. You have look at things from the mindset of readers. There are certain things MG readers want in books, there are certain things YA readers want in books, and there are certain things adult readers want in books. Most cases, these readers tend to rip on the other's genre. I've heard my little nephews and nieces dissing Twilight and other popular YA novels cos it didn't have certain things, and believe me, those things are kinda dumb lol not dumb as in dumb, but kiddy stuff, you know? I usually say to them, "What?! How is THAT cool?" And they lecture me on why it is hahaha! And some YA readers diss MG stuff for being too uncomplicated. And Adults, well you've heard them rip on YA plenty times.

But on some occassions, there's that one book that captures the heart of everyone, MG, YA, and adult. I don't think the publishers plan to publish crossover books. I don't even think the authors of these crossover books know their books will have crossover appeal when published. It just happens. One minute it's published, the next thing everyone - kids, young adults, and adults - is reading it and saying it's awesome.

I'd advise every author not to focus on any grey area or trying to write a crossover appeal book, cos you're sort of wasting your time. Just write your damn book. There's no formular for the crossover thing. I've read books like Harry Potter, even better than Potter, that had zero crossover appeal. It's just the way it is.

[Senora Verde]

I'm 28 and I read a lot of YA and MG. But there are some books I won't pick up because I feel I'm just "too old" for them. I can see why teens would enjoy these books, but they're not for me.

Usually if a YA novel focuses on problems unique to teenagers (with the exception of generally coming of age) then I won't read it. Conflicts over gossip, disagreements with parents, losing virginity, drinking at parties, unrequited crushes, worries about grades, and navigating social hierarchy in high school don't interest me. I just can't relate to these problems anymore.

I think if a YA book is set mainly in a high school, then it has a lot less cross-over appeal than a book set outside the locker-lined walls.

I think that's why so many "grown-ups" read speculative YA.

The Hunger Games, Melissa Marr's Wicked Lovely Series, and Graceling and Fire by Kristin Cashore have huge cross-over appeal because the main conflicts are not dependent on the main character's age. But I'd also argue the writing in these examples is more literary and less dialogue-dependent than a lot of YA books out there.

Just my 2 cents.

[Danthia]

There is no defined crossover genre, although there is a new publisher aiming novels at the 20-something market (forget who though). That's awesome about that bookstore that has a crossover section though. Never seen that before.

A crossover book is one that works for both markets and typically has a deep enough plot to keep adults interested, but still maintains teen-focused themes. Or it's one that has gotten so much press that adults are picking it up because they hear so much about it. (Can you say Twilight?) It's not so much the content, but the marketing.

Adults reads YA, so any good book tends to "crossover." And older teens are reading both YA and adult novels that suit them, so they'll pick up adult books with a teen slant.

YA is pretty edgy these days. If your book deals with teen situations and teen issues, you're probably fine in YA. But if the situations and issues are adult, then teens probably won't be interested anyway and you'd be better off marketing to adults.

Have you read a lot of YA paranormal romance to see how yours fits? Or some of the edgier YA out there? That'll most likely give you a good sense of how yours fit into the market.

[Phaeal]

The Borders I go to has handled the crossover phenomenon by smacking the YA section up against the adult fiction section. People naturally wander from one to the other now, and the YAs don't feel the stigma of being in the kid's and MG section. ;)

[Kirkland]

I don't think there's a huge difference, to be honest, and most adults read YA books these days.

[Shady Lane]

I hate the term crossover because it's one of those things that nobody really knows the meaning/use of. Any book has potential for crossover. I also have to say, being both barely out of my teens and studying contemporary literature extensively, there's not a whole lot of difference in the content. The situations and ages are different, but the book can be just as literary and deep as a mainstream adult one, often more. Also, the age most people target seems to be higher than it actually should be. A lot of "upper YA" is more labeled that way for parent's sake than for the readers. The biggest difference, in my opinion, between adult and YA is that teens won't put up with some of the indulgent things adult authors do. The writing has to be tighter and more to the point most of the time.

I am Shady Lane and I approve this message.

[suki]

First, see the links Sage posted. They will have a wealth of information.

But, to address some of your points:

Hi: My, what many would term 'YA paranormal romance,' is 104K words and too edgy for youth under sixteen (in general). Then it's probably upper YA, or edgy YA. But Are you sure it's not appropriate for under 16? Many, many upper YA books, even very edgy ones are, considered 14+. Make sure you have read a lot of upper YA - you might be surprised about what is perfectly acceptable in YA these days ;).

I expect the industry will officially acknowledge (or has already done so) there is a need at the upper scale of YA for mature literature. it's called upper YA, and already exists. Upper YA is flourishing.

I read somewhere that they are calling that grey area (between YA and Adult) Crossover. My understanding of crossover was any book that bleeds over into another category. As others have said, this is something people call books after they've found wide appeal, but it is not a genre.

The readership is there, between YA and Adult, so of course it should be recognized. There is sufficient percentage of adults who never leave YA. I myself, never quite got back on track after having left the YA section. I ran into too much garbage to sift through in the adult section.

And there has been nation-level uproar among parents who find their kids checking out novels in the YA section that are too mature for them. Actually, there really hasn't been. This is a myth. There is a very vocal minority who would like to believe it's true, and who foster that myth as truth. But challenges are not up, AFAIK. A vocal minority is always challenging some books - and wanting attention for doing so. But there really is no national movement or uproar. :)

So, is it official? Is the grey area Crossover? If it is, that may not be definition enough. How about MYA? Mature Young Adult.

YA is YA - and I'd bet that your book is solidly YA. As long as there are not graphic sexual description, it's probably YA.



There's this bookstore I shop at that actually has a crossover section. I just had to step into this thread to say that, because I've never seen it before and I was wondering whether it was common. Anyone else seen a crossover section?



I've never seen that before - I've seen book stores with no YA/Teen section (ie, just a fiction section) and I've seen some with teen sections right next to the adult section. And I've seen some that stock certain books in both the teen and adult sections. But I've never seen a "Crossover" section.


There is no defined crossover genre, although there is a new publisher aiming novels at the 20-something market (forget who though). St. Martins Press is accepting submissions for New Adult books, ie, with early-twenties characters. But AFAIK, they're the only ones recognizing a genre between YA and adult. Everyone else seems to be pretty much sticking with adult and YA.


Go read a ton of upper YA and then consider where your book falls. I'd bet it is YA. :)

~suki

[inkspatters]

Yep, really. I only realised because I was looking for Will Grayson, Will Grayson in YA and they didn't have it, so I asked someone (because seriously, how can you not stock WG, WG) and they were like "Oh, we put it in the crossover." It was weird, but I guess they don't want adults to feel odd walking into the YA section or something?

[PsiScript]

Wow. Some great information here. New Adult sounds good--almost as good as Mature Young Adult--but it has fewer words. I'll go for that. Smile. (Actually, New Adult does sound better).

I think having a crossover section is great. Give that manager a raise.Where was he/she when my reading-life needed a savior?

My query-life has been innoculated by the information here. In one of my scenes the daughter finds her mother watching a video she uses for sex-therapy. The video is graphic, but tastefully written (the couple are in love) and the virgin daughter has seen it often, so it's no big deal to them. That's as graphic as it gets, except for the ending, which leans toward the literary---'the brush of his palm against her nipple' not 'he grabbed her breasts.'

I have no doubt my novel is YA, because all of the main characters are in their late teens. I've envisioned the 20 something crowd reading it as well, thinking that it would have such a small margin of teens who would be allowed to read it. But, yeah, I know, if it's in YA, it will find it's way into younger teens' lockers and under their beds. But I feel it would attract college level intellect.

Those parents were seriously concerned about finding graphic material in the hands of their elementary students. I don't blame them, who could? They appeared on CNN, a national news channel, which is what I meant by nation-level. I agree, just write the book.