How Far Do You Follow Advice?

gothicangel · Jul 10, 2010

I saw this while reading the current issue of Mslexia:

'On the subject of children, I feel I should issue a warning. In the last couple of years, there have been an awful lot of crime novels in which the protagonist's children are stalked, abducted or otherwise threatened by the villian. In fact the 'little Susie is missing' moment has become almost as common place as the 'you're off the case' moment when the maverick police officer has a confrontation with his or her senior officer. I'm not saying you shouldn't do either of these things, just that you should think very carefully before you do this'
[Laura Wilson, Mslexia July 2010.]

Maybe I've been reading too many McDermid, Rankin or Peace lately; but the 'little Susie is missing trend has by passed me. Can anyone explain this to me? I can understand that it's a cheap/cliched device to heighten tension.

My concern is that my almost finished WIP is a kidnap novel. My protag/detective is a Crown Court Judge who's son is kidnapped as revenge for a decison he has made in the past. My concern is that agents will view the kidnap story as tired.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Stanmiller · Jul 10, 2010

Well, I know of several movies with that as the central theme. By the time Hollywood gets hold of anything, it's already a cliche. So yeah, IMO there's a good chance your work will be seen as derivative unless you can come with something so shiny it won't matter.

-Stan

thothguard51 · Jul 10, 2010

IF it is central to the story, then it does not matter if its cliched our not... IMHO.

heyjude · Jul 10, 2010

Remember that there are only 7 stories to be told. Everything's done. Do it better than anyone else.

Yes, there are a lot of missing kid stories out there. Always has been, always will be. Taps into our deepest fears. I'm a sucker for these stories.

Don't stop! There's always room for one more really well-told story.

MarkEsq · Jul 10, 2010

Don't worry about it gothicangel. If it's central to your story and you write it well, it's a valid story device.

You know, and HeyJude can attest, I panicked the other day when I read some random commenter on a writing website made the throwaway statement that serial killers are cliched, old-hat, and boring. Well, my new novel features one, he's the one and only protag, so I gasped, wept, and then was reminded by our mother here that one person's opinion don't mean squat. Anything done well will work.

Now I just have to do it well...

heyjude · Jul 10, 2010

Serial killers, too, tap into our deepest fears. These things will always sell. Yes, some trends are hotter than others, and the occasional person is sick of a trend, but lots of people vote with their dollars and they want to be scared, titillated, and made to think.

So get titillating!

(Wait... too far?)

FOTSGreg · Jul 10, 2010

I follow advice until it's no longer necessary for the plot or the plot and advice diverge too strongly.

In other words, I follow advice until it's no longer needed.

Now, a word of warning - a book I've been reading recently has several obvious incidents in which the author obviously did not heed his advisers. His scenario ends up as ludicrous in the extreme - so much so that anyone with even a small investment in science, like myself, finds themselves saying "But it doesn't work like that. It can't!" and throwing the book across the room.

Heed your advisers. Weigh their advice carefully. Use what you can. Diverge from it where you need to, but use extreme care.

People who know will call you out on it eventually if you get it wrong.

Ruv Draba · Jul 10, 2010

Ruv's Plot Device Cheese Test:

Is the reader surprised by your plot device -- e.g. the how, where, when, why or whom?
Is this plot device consistent with the characters' knowledge, personalities, motives, opportunities?
In dealing with this plot device, does your main character face a major personal dilemma?
Does this plot device exercise your main character to capacity?
Does this plot device help give your main character its worst day ever?
Is the main character's suffering worse than if it happened to any other character?

If you answered Yes to all questions, I reckon you have nothing to worry about. Your plot device is surprising, credible, personal, and dramatic. Even if readers have seen this plot device before, they aren't expecting it this time! By the time they realise what it is, the subsequent tension will make them want to keep reading, while the personal stakes will keep the reader engaged whatever happens.

If you answered No to any of these questions then your plot device may have room for improvement. The more 'Nos' you have, the more likely readers will find it cliché, generic, predictable and uninteresting.

Hope that helps.

Susan Coffin · Jul 10, 2010

The kidnap story is an idea. There are no new ideas, all have been written about before. It's all about taking your idea and putting a different spin on it.

I say finish that kidnap book and see where it takes you!

gothicangel · Jul 10, 2010

Thank you, you've put my mind at rest!

I don't think the story is derivative or cliched. When I started out I specifically set out to kick out at the cliches of the kidnap story.

Big Thank You to Ruv.

Oh, and Mark don't stop with the Serial Killer story. I love serial killers, and they are really hot in Gothic at the moment.

mariedees · Jul 11, 2010

If the novel is almost finished, then I'm going to finish it and let the agents and publishers have a look at it rather than giving up on it. I've seen too many people declare something cliched and out of fashion only to see the next big hit be that exact topic.

So, I guess I don't listen to advice much at all in this case.

gothicangel · Jul 11, 2010

mariedees said:
If the novel is almost finished, then I'm going to finish it and let the agents and publishers have a look at it rather than giving up on it. I've seen too many people declare something cliched and out of fashion only to see the next big hit be that exact topic.

So, I guess I don't listen to advice much at all in this case.

Good advice.

I'm busy doing a re-write based on agent feedback. I got personalised rejections from two top UK agents. I guess the comment made me fear I'd missed the boat.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 11, 2010

Advice is one thing, writing what's already overdone is another. Unless I can find a fresh twist, make the story unlike anything else out there, I don't write it.

Kidnapped child has been done a thousand times, so the trick is to find a twist that will make your story unique.

gothicangel · Feb 17, 2011

gothicangel said:
I saw this while reading the current issue of Mslexia:

'On the subject of children, I feel I should issue a warning. In the last couple of years, there have been an awful lot of crime novels in which the protagonist's children are stalked, abducted or otherwise threatened by the villian. In fact the 'little Susie is missing' moment has become almost as common place as the 'you're off the case' moment when the maverick police officer has a confrontation with his or her senior officer. I'm not saying you shouldn't do either of these things, just that you should think very carefully before you do this'
[Laura Wilson, Mslexia July 2010.]

Maybe I've been reading too many McDermid, Rankin or Peace lately; but the 'little Susie is missing trend has by passed me. Can anyone explain this to me? I can understand that it's a cheap/cliched device to heighten tension.

My concern is that my almost finished WIP is a kidnap novel. My protag/detective is a Crown Court Judge who's son is kidnapped as revenge for a decison he has made in the past. My concern is that agents will view the kidnap story as tired.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Okay I revoke the statement.

I've been reading Mark Billingham's Buried, and every cliched device is in there. The next edit will involve a 'check for the bits that made your eyes roll in Buried element.

heyjude · Feb 17, 2011

gothicangel · Feb 17, 2011

Today's Mantra is: this is a Good Thing; it will make your book better.

heyjude · Feb 17, 2011

gothicangel said:
Today's Mantra is: this is a Good Thing; it will make your book better.

Good attitude.

I like to kick stuff and mumble under my breath for a while before I get to this mature part.

Pistol Whipped Bee · Feb 17, 2011

heyjude said:
Remember that there are only 7 stories to be told.

What are the 7 stories?

heyjude · Feb 17, 2011

Pistol Whipped Bee said:
What are the 7 stories?

7 basic plots:

[wo]man vs. nature
[wo]man vs. [wo]man
[wo]man vs. the environment
[wo]man vs. machines/technology
[wo]man vs. the supernatural
[wo]man vs. self
[wo]man vs. god/religion

There are variants, of course, but this is what I found with a quick Google.

tarak · Feb 17, 2011

I wrote the story I wanted to write. I knew if I tried to get published, it might be difficult because my MC (an ATF agent), hunts vampires. They don't sparkle, they get decapitated and set on fire. But still... Vampires. I just started querying for real last week (I'm claiming amnesia on the ones I sent out last October when I had no clue what I was doing). I've gotten the "not for me" rejections. But I've also gotten two requests for the full manuscript. Does that mean some agents and publishers won't be interested because vamps are passé? Absolutely. But I took the requests as an encouraging sign that they like my writing enough to overlook the crowded market.

Which is a long-winded way of agreeing with heyjude. There aren't new stories. Just write yours well and try to put a different spin on it.

gothicangel · Feb 17, 2011

tarak said:
Does that mean some agents and publishers won't be interested because vamps are passé?

Don't say that to one of my uni tutors [she's a world authority on Gothic, esp. Vampires.]

tarak · Feb 17, 2011

gothicangel said:
Don't say that to one of my uni tutors [she's a world authority on Gothic, esp. Vampires.]

I don't think they are. But I have read interviews where agents have said they don't want to receive queries with vampires in them.

Ken Hoss · Feb 17, 2011

So I suppose my crime/police procedural is overdone in the market. Might as well hang it up now. *sigh*

Seriously though, like others have said, it's all been done, there are no new stories. Just look at Hollywierd. They're so lost that they have been making movies based on comic book characters. :tongue

Sassy3421 · Feb 17, 2011

Well I'm going to springboard off what you said, Ken. I know that comic book characters are popular and the "powers that be" know that too. But I can't help but wonder why are they remaking another version of Spiderman? Leave it alone. Especially when I know there are thousands of purchased rights to books to make into movies. Let's see something new!

And that leads to the question, is there anything new out there? I like to believe there is, but at the same point, as has been mentioned in this thread, a lot of the basics are still there. And as a writer, I think we notice it even more so. The subtle clues left in CSI's, Criminal Minds, etc (yes, I know I'm talking tv) but we can put them together. You can be sure a lot of people can...but here's the key - they're popular and that means money

And Ken as far as police procedurals being out...yeah, don't think so at all. In fact, they are even adding more television shows on this subject line (ex. The Chicago Code - pretty good show BTW)

Final thought: this is what's selling as entertainment and its crossed over to novels, so M/T/S people, let's cash in on it

HistorySleuth · Feb 17, 2011

I agree it has all been done before, and the new spin on it all is the trick.

Kaitie and her Superhero story is a great example. Think that is the one agents are interested in, she'll correct me if I'm wrong. Even if I am wrong, with a new Spiderman like Ken said and what I see coming up on TV, it's perfect timing for her story. I've read a bit of it (hope she doesn't mind me saying that) and her story has a very unique spin for sure, that in my opinion, sets it apart from the rest.

How Far Do You Follow Advice?

Toughen up.

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Making my own sunshine

Clever title pending.

Making my own sunshine

Today is your last day.

Tell it like it Is

Toughen up.

Toughen up.

Toughen up.

Making my own sunshine

Toughen up.

Making my own sunshine

Now what?

Making my own sunshine

for certain qualities of "sane"

Toughen up.

for certain qualities of "sane"

Storm Rising A Kelli Storm Novel

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Researching History's Mysteries