Plus-Size Heroines

squibnocket said:

Hello lovelies!

This afternoon I got back some notes from my (non-AW) beta and she savaged my work saying that my heroine is unrealistic and the story is unbelievable because - wait for it, wait for it - the heroine is a plus-size woman. The notes that came back were predominantly about size-issues and not the plot, style, or anything else of consequence. Things like "Why does she have to be fat?", "You don't mention why she's heavy." and "The story would be more relatable to your audience if she's losing weight." were mentioned and I'm feeling quite defensive about it now.

This WIP is my first romance work (I hail from the non-fiction world) and I know better than to rely on the comments of one reader but I'm suddenly concerned that maybe this is something I'll be facing as I submit to publishers. Is there an automatic bias against the non-apologetic, positive plus-size heroine?

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Personally, that tells me more about your Beta than it does about a problem with your story or character.

Look, there will be people (and maybe even agents or editors) who have personal hangups about weight --just as there are those with hangups about heroes with blonde hair, heroines who are spies or plots that have an evil stepmother (these are just random examples).

Get another beta, someone who can talk to you about the story. If your heroine is overweight and it yields characterization, then great! Go for it! ARe, for example, even has a Rubenesque category to search for it. I've heard many readers bemoan the lack of stories with this type of heroine. You have an audience.

I wouldn't automatically dismiss what the beta said. Maybe they're not communicating the reason why the MC is unbelievable well. The comment "The story would be more relatable to your audience if she's losing weight." makes me wonder if you're writing it as she's okay with her weight. A lot of people would feel that is unbelievable.

This isn't a comment about plus sized people not being okay with it, it's about the audience's perception. We're bombarded by tv movies and peer pressure to asume that plus size=fat, and that fat=needs to lose weight.

It's hard to fight perception.

See what the next beta says, but don't mention what the first said. If they say pretty much the same thing, then maybe you have to reevaluate.

I feel sad for someone who can't wrap their mind around a plump person being happy with their weight, and that sadness would change to anger if the person thought fatness was disgusting or morally wrong or something like that. I'm content with my own 200 lbs, I've met men who prefer fat women to other body types, and I'll kick the ass of anyone who acts bigoted toward me or tries to make me feel bad for being who I am.

I pretty much agree with san remo - this is the wrong beta for your story, she is not in the audience of people who want to read about plus size heroines finding love.

Yes, you definitely need a second opinion before you give up. There is an audience. I'd concentrate more on the character and it's appeal than I would about weight issues right now.

I echo the others. Get another beta. Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about thin heroines. Second I crack open a book, and read about the heroine not being hungry, or complaining about her thinness, I want to break her twiggy little arm! IN THREE PLACES!

The girl in my WIP is chunky, and battles her weight constantly. The boy in my WIP loves her big boobs and ass.

sunandshadow said:

I feel sad for someone who can't wrap their mind around a plump person being happy with their weight, and that sadness would change to anger if the person thought fatness was disgusting or morally wrong or something like that. I'm content with my own 200 lbs, I've met men who prefer fat women to other body types, and I'll kick the ass of anyone who acts bigoted toward me or tries to make me feel bad for being who I am.

I pretty much agree with san remo - this is the wrong beta for your story, she is not in the audience of people who want to read about plus size heroines finding love.

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I can. It's because that's what society wants us to think. Whether it's to sell us diet crap, or to tax beverages, or to just feel better than someone. It sucks, but it's reality to them. Not a lot of people like to think for themselves

In addition to agreeing with those who say you probably need a different beta reader for this story, there are absolutely markets for plus-sized heroines. Stick to your guns and write your heroine as YOU see her.

BTW, my gut reaction is that the beta really liked your story and related to the heroine, and, therefore, didn't want the heroine to be fat because she didn't want to relate to a fat person. As someone else said, tells you a lot more about this beta reader than it does about your story.

Brutal Mustang said:

I echo the others. Get another beta. Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about thin heroines. Second I crack open a book, and read about the heroine not being hungry, or complaining about her thinness, I want to break her twiggy little arm! IN THREE PLACES!

The girl in my WIP is chunky, and battles her weight constantly. The boy in my WIP loves her big boobs and ass.

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Sometimes it feels to me like the only heroines I'm seeing are ones who have "luscious curves" and big boobs and asses. I'm barely a size 2, barely a B-cup, and not particularly curvy at all, and was made to feel less of a woman all my life because of it. I actually gained a bunch of weight at one point in the hopes that it would give me curves; it didn't. It just gave me a big stomach, and because I'm small-boned my features all but disappeared. So I figured slim was the best look for me, and started being careful about what I ate, and lost 40 lbs. I'm still not curvy, and I'm still envious of women who can wear push-up bras and actually have something to push up, or who have hips and therefore fill out the hip parts of dresses and skirts, but at least it works for my body type.

I don't understand why we have to be prejudiced about the size of heroine at all, be they big or small. It's not okay to get pissy about a woman because she's "fat." It's also not okay to get pissy because she's "thin." Women come in all different shapes and sizes, so our heroines should too, and we shouldn't try to make each other feel ashamed or embarrassed for being any particular size and/or shape, you know?

There is absolutely a market for heroines with a little meat on their bones! I see tons of them. Yes, it depends on just how big she is; is she thirty pounds overweight, or a hundred and fifty? The latter may be more specialized, because I believe that would make it a BBW book (Big Beautiful Woman), and those are generally a smaller market. But just being heavy, I don't think is a problem at all, and I think your friend is being kind of weird about it.*

*I will say, though, how much time, if any, does your heroine spend obsessing about her weight, or worrying about it, or talking about it really positively, or whatever? It might be--probably isn't, but might be--that it isn't her size that bothers your friend as much as the amount of words the book spends on it, do you know what I mean? A heroine who constantly talks about diets and her weight and how much she hates her body isn't generally really appealing to me; neither is a character who totally advocates being overweight (or anorexic) and spends all of her time thinking hateful things about women who aren't. You know?

There's nothing wrong with making her physically imperfect--that's a great thing. There's nothing wrong with having her accept herself and be healthy--that's also a great thing. There's nothing wrong with her acknowledging her flaws--great as well. And there's nothing wrong with having her want to do something about those flaws, although it's not necessary IMO. But when it turns into obsession, or pettiness about other women, I don't like it.

I guess for me a heroine who spends so much time thinking about any aspect of her physical appearance can seem kind of shallow to me. That's not to say it always does, just that it can.


But your friend's reaction really sounds to me like prejudice, so I wouldn't worry about it, and I certainly wouldn't change my book because of it. Your character is overweight because she is. if she wasn't, she'd be a different character; every aspect of a person makes up who they are, you know? So unless the heroine's weight takes up most of the story (see above, lol) I'd ignore her comments and find someone who accepts that not everyone is perfect.

In addition to what everyone else says, I assure you there's a market for a plus-sized heroine in romance. I can rattle off at least half a dozen authors who write larger heroines, including myself. One author I can think of in particular sells like there's no tomorrow.

Go with your gut.

squibnocket said:

Hello lovelies!

This afternoon I got back some notes from my (non-AW) beta and she savaged my work saying that my heroine is unrealistic and the story is unbelievable because - wait for it, wait for it - the heroine is a plus-size woman. The notes that came back were predominantly about size-issues and not the plot, style, or anything else of consequence. Things like "Why does she have to be fat?", "You don't mention why she's heavy." and "The story would be more relatable to your audience if she's losing weight." were mentioned and I'm feeling quite defensive about it now.

This WIP is my first romance work (I hail from the non-fiction world) and I know better than to rely on the comments of one reader but I'm suddenly concerned that maybe this is something I'll be facing as I submit to publishers. Is there an automatic bias against the non-apologetic, positive plus-size heroine?

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Trust your instincts. Write your character your way.

san_remo_ave said:

Personally, that tells me more about your Beta than it does about a problem with your story or character..

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This.

Dee Carney said:

In addition to what everyone else says, I assure you there's a market for a plus-sized heroine in romance. I can rattle off at least half a dozen authors who write larger heroines, including myself. One author I can think of in particular sells like there's no tomorrow.

Go with your gut.

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I agree! Turning Thirty-Twelve and Free Falling are probably my best-selling stories -- both atypical heroines -- older and heavier. In Free Falling, Laurie always calls herself a size fourteen in a size four world. I've had fans email about how nice it is to have a "realistic" character they can identify with.

Honestly, I prefer the books where you don't really know if the heroine has a little extra curves or is overweight or thin. I give 'em more important things to stew about than what they eat (or don't eat) or their size. I'm not as much in the mood these days for the Bridget Jones / Chick lit type approach to body issues, though I certainly loved Bridget Jones' Diary at the time. This is just where I am at now.

However, I too want to jettison the books that have the heroine complaining to the hero that when she gains weight, it all goes to her boobs and she remains thin everywhere else. Cry me a river; I'm sure the hero is...not.

So...ultimately, it probably doesn't matter. There's a market for all body sizes. Glean what you can from this beta's efforts then move on to another one.

here's a list of Romance genre books with Plus Sized heroines.

Read a good many of them. See how this issue is handled.

Next time you send the book out for Beta review, say that you've got that part of the story under control, (maybe explain why you think it is under control,) and that you're looking for comment on the rest.

And dontcha know that the book I picked up to read last night has a plump heroine. Total happenstance. The hero loves this about the heroine and the heroine has accepted her size as what it is. And it has nothing to do with the plot of the story, it's just part of characterization. I haven't finished it yet, but it's an interesting read --published pretty recently with Harlequin Spice line, so there's definitely a place for it in category romance, and Historical to boot. Addicted by Charlotte Featherstone.

Hmph! Nothing wrong with large ladies. Send your beta reader to me and I'll sit on her - she'll then have a justifiable reason for having her pov!

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to express my enthusiasm for this conversation. It's really made me feel better about how we look at heroines. The romance books I read sway toward the "petite, cute, thin" type and I never realized there was something else. How ignorant. I'm glad there is.

In addition to more curvy or plus-sized female characters, what about tall? Are there books that deal with taller women, too? I'm just curious because it seems like every book I pick up has a heroine who is really short or at least average. I know that makes for an appealing image when the man can scoop her up or so you can have that desired height difference but I'd personally love to read about some taller women. I'm 5'9" myself. I feel my height is woefully underrepresented in fiction

K.L. Townsend said:

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to express my enthusiasm for this conversation. It's really made me feel better about how we look at heroines. The romance books I read sway toward the "petite, cute, thin" type and I never realized there was something else. How ignorant. I'm glad there is.

In addition to more curvy or plus-sized female characters, what about tall? Are there books that deal with taller women, too? I'm just curious because it seems like every book I pick up has a heroine who is really short or at least average. I know that makes for an appealing image when the man can scoop her up or so you can have that desired height difference but I'd personally love to read about some taller women. I'm 5'9" myself. I feel my height is woefully underrepresented in fiction

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The heroine in my current WIP is very tall... it's a continuation to my Devil in a Red Kilt book so I HOPE to see it in print, eventually.

Amen. I can remember a time, not that long ago in fact, where young, stupid and blindingly perfect heroines were the requirement. It's refreshing to read a story where the female MC has to deal with some of the things the rest of us do. And by God, wouldn't it be boring if everyone liked the same thing? Some men do like curvier ladies, or taller or intelligent or snarky or....the list goes on and on.

Stacia Kane said:

*I will say, though, how much time, if any, does your heroine spend obsessing about her weight, or worrying about it, or talking about it really positively, or whatever? It might be--probably isn't, but might be--that it isn't her size that bothers your friend as much as the amount of words the book spends on it, do you know what I mean? A heroine who constantly talks about diets and her weight and how much she hates her body isn't generally really appealing to me; neither is a character who totally advocates being overweight (or anorexic) and spends all of her time thinking hateful things about women who aren't.

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This is what my first thought was. So, you know, before jumping on the "prejudice" bandwagon, you might want to look at your beta's comments with a little less defensiveness (as I tell authors in my beta group all the time about any comments they receive). Why is the heroine plus-size? Is it necessary to the story? Do you have to describe her at all? (I rarely describe my characters.) So basically, what part does her weight play? And are you over-emphasizing it based on its importance to the story? Or if the story needs her to be plus-size, then maybe you haven't made that clear.

But you know, we ask people to beta because we want their honest feedback and trust their judgment. So you do need to be sure you're not upset just because she didn't *love* your whole story.

Let me just say, Plus sized heroines are both refreshing and fun to read. Not all plus-sizes have body issues (especially since the current fashion standards are size 8 and above are considered plus sized). I don't think a size 12 is likely to feel insecure about her weight if she carries it well. That being said, I'm tired of the stick thin heroines, but I don't discriminate against any character if she's well written.

Your beta may have issues with what she considers unrealistic, but when the majority of women are on avg size 10-14, I think plus sized seems more realistic.

Y'know what? I'm not liking some of the comments here. You asked for an opinion and got one. Because you don't like it isn't a reason to publicly hang the person. Non AWer or not.

Have you taken this up with the beta?

Have you sent it to someone else?

I don't equate "The MC is unbelievable" into "prejudiced" without more to go on, and since you haven't responded to this thread since you posted it, I wonder what your purpose here is.

This is just my opinion, but I would think there would be a huge market for this work. (And no pun intended.) I would write true to yourself and let things fall where they fall. Best wishes.

Wayne K said:

Y'know what? I'm not liking some of the comments here. You asked for an opinion and got one. Because you don't like it isn't a reason to publicly hang the person. Non AWer or not.

Have you taken this up with the beta?

Have you sent it to someone else?

I don't equate "The MC is unbelievable" into "prejudiced" without more to go on, and since you haven't responded to this thread since you posted it, I wonder what your purpose here is.

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I don't believe the OP posted this in order to "publicly hang" the beta reader at all. This isn't the first discussion I've ever seen about whether or not it's "okay" to have a heroine who isn't physically perfect; it's an issue that comes up fairly often in romance.

I also don't think anyone here started screaming for beta reader blood. The comments as quoted sound like they could be simply prejudice or someone who doesn't really know the genre or how to beta it; take a look at the "Worst feedback" thread in Novels. Sometimes betas give ridiculous comments. That's just the way it is.

The beta didn't say "The MC is unbelievable," as you quote above. The beta said, "Why does she have to be fat?" There's a big difference there. And even if there wasn't, several of us, including you, have posted some possibilities other than prejudice, and some things for the OP to look for and think about that may justify the beta's comments. And just because you obviously wouldn't believe a plus-sized person could be happy with their weight--which isn't true, as I've known quite a few of them--doesn't mean no one else will. Especially when, as has been pointed out, we don't know how plus-sized this MC is; she could be a size 14 and considered "plus size" or "overweight," but may in fact just be curvy.


Also, the OP just posted this at close to midnight last night. I think it's a bit early to accuse her of dropping a bomb and running away. So let's not do that, okay? In fact, let's not accuse anyone of anything; a perfectly nice conversation is being had here, regardless of what your opinion of it is.

Let's stay on-topic, everyone.

Stacia Kane said:

I don't believe the OP posted this in order to "publicly hang" the beta reader at all.

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Well, if you look at the OP, it wasn't exactly a "Could she be right or is she out of line?" type of post. Someone who says a beta "savaged" her story does tend to make me step back a moment and wonder about the editing of the beta's comments. As I said, I've heard this same type of lament from authors in my beta group and once we get them to calm down, the issues can be discussed without any such adjectives/adverbs. Then and only then are betas and authors able to work together to iron out misunderstandings and differences of opinion.