Do I really need a good guy?

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

I have a story brewing in my head that is told from the point of view of a very disturbed person. She does very bad things to another very disturbed person in the name of "curing" her.

I've never written anything dark before, but this piece would be bordering on midnight. Basically, there is no clear-cut good guy, because both of the mc's are so insane that it's impossible to cheer for one over the other. For an "it's like" example, think Misery + One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest sans the friendly nurse.

I've only scratched out a premise, basic plot, and a few scenes at this point. So, I still have plenty of time to decide what to do with it.

What I'd really like to know is: Is a story without a good guy commercially viable?

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

Yes. As long as the writing is solid and the characters are fascinating.

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

Ah, that's what I was hoping to hear.

Thanks!

Midnight Star · Jun 4, 2010

I agree with Mama Jude. As long as the writing's good, I don't see any problem with having no good guys.

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 4, 2010

All I know is I wouldn't buy it. I need someone to cheer for, even if it's just a secondary character who is trying to stop these two.

But yes, it would still be commercially viable. Wasn't American Psycho like that?

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

I don't know. Honestly, I see too much horrible human behavior at work, so I normally don't read or watch (or write) dark stuff. *runs off to Google American Psycho*

ToddWBush · Jun 4, 2010

Lots of stories don't have good guys. Think noir.

kaitie · Jun 4, 2010

Personally, I'd need sympathy for the character, but I can have sympathy for someone who isn't a good person. If I found them both wholly unsympathetic, I'd probably be more disgusted than anything. If they are, however, then I'd probably think it was awesome.

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

Okay, I watched the trailer for American Psycho. It's hard for me to tell just by that snippet if this is similar or not. I might have to rent it and find out.

Noir, huh? This might be a good exercise for me. I'll have to put the sunshine and Happily Ever Afters away for awhile.

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

Kaitie makes a really good point. If there's no sympathy at all, if every character is just evil for evil's sake, it won't work well.

My personal feelings are the same as the Ferret's. I don't like the no-good-guy thing, but that's just me. Plenty of people do.

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

If both characters are true whack jobs, but both believe they are doing the right thing (one for herself and the other for the greater good), would that envoke sympathy or just make you hate them even more?

shadowwalker · Jun 4, 2010

If the characters are "based on facts" crazy, then the sympathy will come out. If they're "cliche" crazy, then I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

For me, personally, it would depend heavily on how it was written, and what their specific personalities are, what they're doing, etc.

There's a big difference between, say, stealing a loaf of bread for your starving family and slaughtering people 'cause your god told you to.

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

These would definitely be "based on facts" crazy. I work in an emergency room and often get stuck manning the behavioral unit. That's where the idea came from. Almost all forms of psychosis can be somehow linked to traumatic experiences. I'm thinking that's where the sympathy would come in (or maybe empathy may be a better word for some). But, understanding how a psycho became a psycho doesn't make the behavior any more acceptable.

Did that make any sense at all?

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

Perfect sense.

As long as the reader can suss out what's really happening.

The MC in the ms I have on sub has serious mental health issues. It makes her do stupid things. But she's quite the sympathetic character, and ultimately a "good guy."

Can you give us more behavioral details, or would you rather not?

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

I'm not very secretive. I've never felt the need to be.

Narrative mc is an ER psych nurse who has a psychotic break of her own after putting up with years of verbal and physical abuse from patients. She's an altruist, and doesn't recognize that she's gone completely over the edge when she abducts a psych patient who frequents the ER.

The abductee has been in and out of the psych systems for years. She constantly, threatens and makes (weak) attempts at suicide and is over-the-top abusive to everyone she encounters. Her problems are more along the lines of personality disorders than medical psych. (i.e. Borderline vs. Schizophrenic...there's a big difference.) She came from a horrible background, but she's impossible to like.

Actually, when I look at it in those terms, maybe psycho nurse is the good guy?

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

Yeah, the nurse has potential. You could definitely give her some sympathetic qualities.

The psych patient as well... bear with me. I only had a few classes of abnormal psych, so know almost nothing.

But don't people with borderline personality have bouts of charm? Or is that only in the beginning of a relationship?

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 4, 2010

ToddWBush said:
Lots of stories don't have good guys. Think noir.

Maybe I don't know what noir is, but if that's all those old movies, like the Maltese Falcon, The Big Sleep, Key Largo, Notorious, and such, those had good guys. Or at least characters sympathetic enough to seem like the good guy.

kayleamay · Jun 4, 2010

The psych patient actually has a myriad of diagnoses, which is fairly common with those who have bounced around the psych community for years, but they are all personality disorders. She is the ultimate incurable psych patient and nasty...very nasty...no charm in this one. She can't be helped, because like many people with severe personality disorders, she doesn't really want help. She just wants attention and sympathy. Her constant sucking of resources is one of the things that pushes psycho nurse to her breaking point.

(But yeah, some people with BPD can be very charming, but it's usually a form a manipulation.)

heyjude · Jun 4, 2010

Well it sounds to me like you're definitely on to something. It sounds like a unique idea!

shadowwalker · Jun 4, 2010

kayleamay said:
She can't be helped, because like many people with severe personality disorders, she doesn't really want help. She just wants attention and sympathy. Her constant sucking of resources is one of the things that pushes psycho nurse to her breaking point.

(But yeah, some people with BPD can be very charming, but it's usually a form a manipulation.)

Well, being MI myself, I'm having doubts about the "fact based" versus "cliche", based on what you're saying (and stating you were "stuck manning the behavioral unit"). Hopefully your BPD character will comes across as just a nasty person with mental health issues and not the "typical troublesome crazy person".

Sigh...

Cyia · Jun 4, 2010

kayleamay said:
If both characters are true whack jobs, but both believe they are doing the right thing (one for herself and the other for the greater good), would that envoke sympathy or just make you hate them even more?

Dexter.

backslashbaby · Jun 4, 2010

Watch Black Snake Moan (Samuel Jackson & Christina Ricci) and pretend it was written well

Cassiopeia · Jun 4, 2010

I always come back to this one example that stuck in my head for my film production class.

In Casablanca (though we have much darker characters now) Rick (Humphrey Bogart) is not a good guy. In fact, he's pretty rotten. done a lot of unseemly things in his time. But, I found myself having sympathy for him as to what made him that way. Also in the movie, Fracture, Anthony Hopkins' portrayal of the unrepentant murderer shows a side to him that I could relate to. He wasn't redeemable and yet I felt he deserved a bit of understanding.

Now with BPD, I was married to someone with it. He was genuinely sorry for what he did when he'd snap, and he'd do everything he can do to make it up to me. And then he'd start that cycle all over again. BPD is a dangerous disorder but they are not without remorse and most of them do want help. However, difficult the process to healing is, it's not easy for them to stay focused on it.

No for someone without remorse, I'd say you need a sociopath.

Every person, no matter the horrors they commit has someone who loves them.

Shadow_Ferret · Jun 4, 2010

I guess I don't see Rick as bad or rotten. I thought he was pretty cool and that's why I like him.

Do I really need a good guy?

I'm on the phone.

Making my own sunshine

I'm on the phone.

We are once in a lifetime.

Court Jester

I'm on the phone.

With great power comes

I'm on the phone.

Making my own sunshine

I'm on the phone.

empty-nester!

Making my own sunshine

I'm on the phone.

Making my own sunshine

I'm on the phone.

Making my own sunshine

Court Jester

I'm on the phone.

Making my own sunshine

empty-nester!

Rewriting My Destiny

~~~~*~~~~

Otherwise Occupied

Court Jester

*