question about the olden days...

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

I am currently writing a book that takes place mostly in the olden days, and it's the time where swords and knives are used, possibly when guns are being introduced, and maybe one of the first Ford cars.
Anyways, to my question...what type of food would they eat around this time? I've already figured venison, beef, stuff like that. But what about breakfast, lunch and dinner selections. Or a selection of something when your on a journey and food might be scarce?
I would appreciate any help asap. A wide variety of options and selections would be helpful. Or at least a way to search it over the net or at a library. {If you've read my other posts I've also included this; google hates me. I can't search things on it very good.}
Thanks,
~Lizz

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

one other thing. I need help on what kind of setting it would be. If the first Ford cars are availible, and the possibility of guns being out there, what was used for lighting by then? {I forget when it was created, it's the summer, where my brain basically goes dead.} What other technical things were availible?

AND~It would be nice for an opinion on the following;
should I base it in the olden days, the only reason I was doing so in the first place was the swords. Basically people can still use swords nowadays. What do you think?
Again, I appreciate the help.

[sunandshadow]

I am currently writing a book that takes place mostly in the olden days, and it's the time where swords and knives are used, possibly when guns are being introduced, and maybe one of the first Ford cars.
Anyways, to my question...what type of food would they eat around this time? I've already figured venison, beef, stuff like that. But what about breakfast, lunch and dinner selections. Or a selection of something when your on a journey and food might be scarce?
I would appreciate any help asap. A wide variety of options and selections would be helpful. Or at least a way to search it over the net or at a library. {If you've read my other posts I've also included this; google hates me. I can't search things on it very good.}
Thanks,
~Lizz

Uh, swords and cars at the same time? Swords were relegated to ornamental use by the invention of guns, and guns were invented more than a century before cars. So... Are you writing something that's supposed to be historically accurate? If so, what country and century (or preferably decade) is it set in. Or, if you're creating an alternate history, fantasy set in a pre-modern culture, or steampunk science fiction, which is it and what do you want the setting to feel like and accomplish?

[SJB]

Chuckle, guffaw, giggle.

[three seven]

The Model T Ford was produced between 1908 and 1927, the Model A from '28 to '31.

All that really happened in that time, apart from the first world war of course, was Prohibition and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. None of which involved swords.

The first electric light was invented in 1800, and the modern carbon-filament lightbulb was patented in 1881.

The handgun was invented in the mid 15th century, FYI. The flintlock musket made it a useful proposition in 1612. More pertinently, The Colt revolver was patented in 1836 and the Gatling gun in 1861, both of which predate the invention of the horseless carriage.

I'd suggest that before you worry about what your characters are eating, you place them somewhere more specific than 'the olden days'. :)

[MarkPettus]

Sunrise,

Good luck with your story. I recommend that you ignore setting and food and transportation for the moment and just get your characters up and walking around. With a little luck they will take you where they want to go and eat what they want to eat and you won't have to make those decisions (trust me, it happens).

The second half of your name is fantasy, so perhaps you should consider a fantasy story. In a world of your own creation people can use swords, fly airplanes, and eat live earthworms for dessert.

Remember that planning to write, preparing to write, and asking questions about writing, aren't writing. Write every day. Write much and write often. Good Luck.

[Aconite]

Sunrise, in addition to when the story takes place (and wow, are you going to have to get more specific than "olden days"), it matters where, too. What folks ate in China for breakfast in 1750 is very different than Alaska in 1925 or France in 1490. As for lighting, it could be anything from tallow candles to dung fires to gaslights to oil lamps to bulbs, depending on when and where. You're really going to need to pin down the specifics.

[James D. Macdonald]

A Reading List for Aspiring Fantasists (http://www.sff.net/paradise/fant_list.htm)

[Danger Jane]

Ah, "the olden days" doesn't mean much...

They've had guns for like four or five hundred years...

[James D. Macdonald]

In days of old when knights were bold
And ladies weren't particular....

[Danger Jane]

lmao, yes.

[zornhau]

Uh, swords and cars at the same time? Swords were relegated to ornamental use by the invention of guns, and guns were invented more than a century before cars.

Um. Guns and swords coexisted on the field through much of military history. The ritters of the army of Gustav Adolphus even combined to two in the 1630s. There were successful cavalry sabre charges in WWI in the Middle East. According to P. Wright's "Tank", the Poles managed to get in at least one sabre fest at the expense of the Nazis. Sword duelling continued in various countries well into the 1900s.

It sounds as if the original poster is writing a Ruritanean fantasy. If so, they would do well to read the original "The Prisoner of Zenda" and Edgar Rice Burrough's homage to it, "The Mad King" (Free at http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/364). They should probably narrow their research down to the 1900s - Olden Days is a little too vague.

[Sassenach]

I am currently writing a book that takes place mostly in the olden days, and it's the time where swords and knives are used, possibly when guns are being introduced, and maybe one of the first Ford cars.
Anyways, to my question...what type of food would they eat around this time? I've already figured venison, beef, stuff like that. But what about breakfast, lunch and dinner selections. Or a selection of something when your on a journey and food might be scarce?
I would appreciate any help asap. A wide variety of options and selections would be helpful. Or at least a way to search it over the net or at a library. {If you've read my other posts I've also included this; google hates me. I can't search things on it very good.}
Thanks,
~Lizz



Just research "breakfast in the olden days."


Sheesh...sometimes the posts on AW are stranger than fiction.

[Jaycinth]

Most people "broke their fast" with what ever was left over and not too spoiled from the night before. And considering that "most people" were not in the privelaged class, that usually meant hard bread dipped in tea or broth.

Oh yes, gruel was 'popular'. Steal a hand full of the horses oats and boil.

[aadams73]

You could probably find a lot of what you're looking for at Wikipedia. Here's a search for "breakfast", it pulls up all kinds of worldwide foodstuffs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakfast

You might also ask a History teacher at school for some text references.

[jackie106]

Or a selection of something when your on a journey and food might be scarce?


If you are on the road and food is scarce, you eat what you can. You could catch fish, steal eggs from nests, pick berries, and trap rabbits. A Boy Scount manual will give you lots of good information about how to live off the land.

In Don Quixote, Sancho Panza seemed to live on dried cheese and stale bread. Also, people took flasks of wine with them because water was often undrinkable.

One of the best places to start doing historical research is in the children's section of the local library. The books have a lot of pictures and it only takes and afternoon to familiarize yourself with the time period. Of course, you will probably need to do more research in the adult section for your second draft.

Jackie

[reph]

A useful reference book is James Trager (ed.), The People's Chronology: A Year-by-Year Record of Human Events from Prehistory to the Present (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1979). It answers questions like "When did Europe suffer famines?" and "When was canned food introduced?"

Sample entries concerning diet:


(A.D. 1070) Roquefort cheese is discovered in France.

(1226) England's 19-year-old Henry III asks the mayor of Winchester to obtain 3 pounds of sugar, a quantity considered enormous.

(1536) England begins to suffer shortages of honey as monasteries which raised honey bees as a source of wax for votive candles are dissolved pursuant to the 1534 Act of Supremacy.

(1731) Half a pint of rum in two equal tots becomes the official ration for all hands in the British Royal Navy....

(1899) Carnation evaporated milk is supplied in 16-ounce cans to Klondike-bound gold seekers by Elbridge Amos Stuart who has set up a small plant at Kent, Wash.,....An Indiana Quaker who became a grocer at El Paso, Tex., Stuart has come to suspect that bad milk is the cause of so many children dying of "summer complaint" and has invested his savings in a new process to manufacture canned, sterilized, evaporated milk....

[LloydBrown]

A useful reference book is James Trager (ed.), The People's Chronology: A Year-by-Year Record of Human Events from Prehistory to the Present (Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1979). It answers questions like "When did Europe suffer famines?" and "When was canned food introduced?"


I love the Timetables of History. I'm going to have to get this one. Thanks, Reph!

[pdr]

I've finally got myself a cheap copy of Elizabeth David's bread book! I've been trying to find a reasonably priced one for a while.

[AncientEagle]

(1731) Half a pint of rum in two equal tots becomes the official ration

I'll go along with most things, but not feeding rum to a couple of tots, whether they are equal or not.

Nevertheless, Reph, you are truly a blessing in the sky.

[reph]

I know where that came from, A. Eagle, but I'll thank you anyway. There should be a word for prose mondegreens.

On Trager's report, I keep thinking "Roquefort cheese is discovered in France, way back in the fridge. No telling how long it'd been there."

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

As far as I know, swords were still used about the same time as guns. And I did say possibly guns, I am not sure if I want to include them or not. And maybe I could turn that part around, I didn't know that piece of information about guns being made a century before cars. Unfortunatly history is never history in our school. I am trying to decide which century, and I'm not even sure of the place yet, it might just be one of those stories where the type of place isn't even mentioned.
Three Seven; that's what I am trying to figure out. I want my characters to use swords and all, but I'm not exactly positive what time zone I want it set it. In Daredevil and a few other movies, they used swords in a modern time, so I might be setting them in something like that, then of course I don't even need to worry about food. But I am not quite sure yet.
Markpettus; thanks! I appreciate it. Yea, that could be possible, and I was thinking about taking that route of modern technology and the sword thing. It's not like the rest of the book has any major setting or era to go along with. And about the second part of my name; I like fantasy and read it a lot, and in this book there is going to be a lot of mythical stuff.
Aconite; I know I have to be more specific, I just meant the olden days at random. Like I said, I'm not even sure what era to set my story in. I'm pretty set for the place, as I mentioned before; I might just not even say the place in the story, or just make up my own. I am not very good with describing real places in stories, the landmarks, areas and all. The lighting of course I pretty much want electrical unless I go the route of before the electric bulb was made. I guess the place would pretty much be America or Italy. That's basically where I base most of my books anyways. Unless of course its made up.
Zornhau; I remember world war I they used cabornets or whatever their called, where they stuck a blade on the top if you ran out of bullets or had to charge with little or no loading time. What is a Ruritanean fantasy?
And yea, I realized olden days was a little too vague for you all, sorry about that. I was just hoping to get scraps of info like when the guns and swords co-existed and the cars were made, I'm sorry that I wasnt too specific of that. But I may just go ahead and place it in a more modern time zone, such as current, if I cant place the characters in more of the older ones mentioned by you guys.
Sassenach; I tried that. The pages google came up with told me nothing. Or at least nothing that helped me out in my situation. I wouldnt have posted on here if I didnt research it a little at first.
Jackie106; I should have known that, shouldnt I have? Wow I feel dumb.
Thanks, all of you. This is helping me a great deal. Now I just have to decide between a more current era or an old one.

[Unimportant]

S2F, I think you mean bayonets.

It's not uncommon to waffle between times/places when deciding on setting, since often one finds in hindsight that one's story, as originally outlined, doesn't fit with something critical in the chosen setting. I'd strongly suggest going to the library for a day and heavily researching your chosen setting(s), to make sure the one you ultimately choose is going to suit your story -- preferably before you get too far into planning the storyline.

Secondary texts are good for overviews; primary texts are ideal for getting those cool details and twiddly bits, and for getting a real flavour of the time/place; the internet ranks a poor third as a research source, as it's very difficult to sift the good/correct information from the overwhelming plethora of bad information.

"Write what you know" is a pretty good mantra. If you're using a real setting you'll need to know it inside out to make it believable; if you're using a made-up one, you'll need to know it _and_ it'll have to be designed so every aspect of it is believable. Research is half the fun of writing the story, and often helps develop the storyline.

my $0.02

[AncientEagle]

And for what it's worth, bayonets continued to be used in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, though less frequently perhaps than in the past. And they are still part of the equipment today, for one never knows when such a thing might come in handy.

[AncientEagle]

I There should be a word for prose mondegreens.

Lord and behold, I think you're right!

(A fridge in France in 1070? But wasn't that in the olden days?)

[James D. Macdonald]

A Ruritanian fantasy (or romance) is one set in the fictional Balkan country of Ruritania.

The original Ruritanian romance was The Prisoner of Zenda, by Anthony Hope.

Here is the full text:

http://www.bibliomania.com/0/0/25/53/frameset.html

Your assignment is to read The Prisoner of Zenda. (The Cliff's Notes version doesn't count.) When you've finished, come back and we can discuss your book a bit more.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

ROFL! Yes, that is the word I meant; Bayonets. Unimportant-Unfortunatly I have almost everything planned. Thanks for that advice, it seems that would help me more throughout the whole planning vs. writing process. If I go ahead, like everyone is saying, and writing out what I know. The one problem is with me, I am a perfectionist when it comes to my writing. I have to know everything then. I guess I'll have to find a way to go down the other path.
I agree, AncientEagle, that's good to know regardless of the era I choose.
Will do James. Of course I'd read the whole thing. If it involves romance, besides the fact that I do love to read.
Thanks!

[SeanDSchaffer]

I don't know if I can help or not, Sunrise2Fantasy, but I'll do the best I can.

Henry Ford built his first automobile back around the 1890's, if I'm not mistaken. He built his first production car in the early 1900's, called the 'Model A' (Not to be confused with the Model A of late 1920's to early 1930's fame; that's a different car.)

But the first truly famous car Ford built was the Model T, which, like previously pointed out, was produced from 1908 to 1927.

Round about the same time, soldiers were using bayonets on the end of their rifles in the battlefields of World War One. This war, at the time, was referred to as 'The Great War.'

What they ate for breakfast, I couldn't say, but it sounds to me like the 'Olden days' you're referring to, would be the early 20th Century. Any research you would do concerning what your characters would eat would have to focus not only around that but also around what part of the world your characters would be living in.

I hope this information helps. Good luck with your work.:)

[sassandgroove]

:hi:Not to be nit picky but a TIME ZONE is what time it is in a particular area. I live in the Central Time Zone, NY is in Eastern Time, CO and NM are Mountain Time and good ol' CA is in Pacific Time ZOne.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=time%20zone

I think the term you want is Time Period, or simply Era. :Lecture:

[SeanDSchaffer]

:hi:Not to be nit picky but a TIME ZONE is what time it is in a particular area. I live in the Central Time Zone, NY is in Eastern Time, CO and NM are Mountain Time and good ol' CA is in Pacific Time ZOne.



An added fact about Time Zones that you might be interested in, Sunrise, is that they were first thought up by railroads in the 19th Century. The railroads found that just judging time by when the sun rose to high noon in such a large country as the U.S., was a major headache in that what was noon in one state was not necessarily noon in another. They used the Time Zones to keep their timetables exact, and to keep timing-related accidents down to a minimum.

[zornhau]

writing process. If I go ahead, like everyone is saying, and writing out what I know. The one problem is with me, I am a perfectionist when it comes to my writing. I have to know everything then. I guess I'll have to find a way to go down the other path.
Thanks!

You only have to appear to know everything! Just make stuff up and fix it later.

[Sassenach]

ROFL! Yes, that is the word I meant; Bayonets. Unimportant-Unfortunatly I have almost everything planned. Thanks for that advice, it seems that would help me more throughout the whole planning vs. writing process. If I go ahead, like everyone is saying, and writing out what I know. The one problem is with me, I am a perfectionist when it comes to my writing. I have to know everything then. I guess I'll have to find a way to go down the other path.

Thanks!

Sunrise, if you're indeed a 'perfectionist' [which I doubt, considering your apparent unwillingness to learn to do basic research], take the time to teach yourself how to obtain the information you need.

You can save yourself a lot of work by deciding about when and where your work is set. Even if you're writing about, say, 1910--how people lived and what they ate varied greatly. Irish tenement dwellers in New York and North Dakota farmers didn't have the same diet.

[sassandgroove]

You only have to appear to know everything! Just make stuff up and fix it later.
THat is exactly why my novel is not set on EARTH. As long as the characters and place is believable, it doesn't have to match this here rock. :)

[HapiSofi]

I am currently writing a book that takes place mostly in the olden days, and it's the time where swords and knives are used, possibly when guns are being introduced, and maybe one of the first Ford cars.
Anyways, to my question...what type of food would they eat around this time? I've already figured venison, beef, stuff like that. But what about breakfast, lunch and dinner selections. Or a selection of something when your on a journey and food might be scarce?
I would appreciate any help asap. A wide variety of options and selections would be helpful. Or at least a way to search it over the net or at a library. {If you've read my other posts I've also included this; google hates me. I can't search things on it very good.}
Thanks,
~LizzThere is no such period as "the olden days."

When the first Ford cars were being introduced, the common weapons for mayhem were Thompson submachine guns, Enfield rifles, miscellaneous small sidearms, and whatever people used for hunting. Military guns still had bayonets, which were next to useless as weapons. (Sharpened entrenching shovels were more effective.) Americans were eating food out of tin cans, had boxed breakfast cereals made by Kellogg, and made molded Jello salads which they kept in the icebox or refrigerator. Few people ate venison, and almost no one ate it regularly. Synthetic fabrics had come on the market. Women were cutting their hair short, putting on makeup, and wearing suits you could still wear to work today. For fun, people might put a jazz record on the record player and dance, or even go to the movies.

If you can't do research -- heck, if you don't love research for its own sake -- then don't write fantasy. Setting it on another planet won't help you. Your manuscript will wind up in the hands of some History of Material Culture enthusiast (the SF and fantasy field is full of them) who'll instantly spot stuff like mismatched levels of manufacturing technology and no functional economy, and on that account think poorly of your book.

Short version of the rule: You can't make up new worlds until you acquaint yourself with the real one.

[reph]

When the first Ford cars were being introduced...
I'll continue with some less tangible features of life at that time. Culture and attitudes in the United States were different than they are today. People believed in progress. The nation would progress through invention and ever-increasing industrial productivity; individuals would succeed through hard work. The stock market would rise forever. Henry Ford would never run out of people to sell cars to.

The melting pot prevailed: many people were immigrants from Europe or China or their offspring, and they felt pressure to Americanize as quickly as possible. Some changed their names. Immigrant families were nervous about appearing "too foreign." This attitude shows in comic strips of the day: many jokes rely on characters' concern about conformity and what the neighbors would think. In vaudeville, dialect humor was common; it was acceptable to make fun of speakers with accents. Other acts featured white men in blackface: playing at being of another race provided entertainment, too.

[pianoman5]

Aw, c’mon you guys, you’re just being picky. Sunrise2Fantasy is still at school and is clearly being taught history in a way that only the American education system knows how. (Geography teachers have a lot to answer for, too.) If 80% of the population prefers to encompass the entire history of the world before grandpa was born in the catch-all term “the olden days”, I can see no good reason to complicate the matter with dry old facts about time and place. It’s time the people were given stories set in a world that they can understand. All this talk of eras and dates just gets in the way of the action.

Scene – Sherwood Forest, in the Olden Days

Little John: What did you have for breakfast, dude?

Robin Hood: At first it was a toss-up between Froot Loops or brontosaurus steak and eggs, but Ben Franklin turned up with some venison patties.

LJ: Did he, begorrah? That’s the kind of strengthening fare a guy needs when he has to face the arrows and muskets of the Pharaoh’s army.

RH: Gadzooks, but so it is, stout fellow. Make sure your cell phone is charged because we might have to call Friar Tuck in an emergency. He’s down at the mall getting our swords and carbonets sharpened. Any word from the Pilgrim Fathers?

LJ: They say they can’t help us in our struggle against Henry the Eighth and his six significant others, because they’re taking a long sea voyage to a place where they expect to discover fries and Bruce Willis.

RH: What about Maid Marie Antoinette?

LJ: She said, “Tell Robin to eat cake and die.”

RH: Strange woman. You can never trust an Albanian. Now, come over here and help me get this Eminem MP3 to play on my phonograph, and then you’d better warm up the Ford so we can go and check the building progress on my new castle, Stonehenge.

[AncientEagle]

When the first Ford cars were being introduced, the common weapons for mayhem were Thompson submachine guns, . Military guns still had bayonets, which were next to useless as weapons. (Sharpened entrenching shovels were more effective.)

Hapi, I apologize in advance for nit-picking (something that's never done on this forum), but the Thompson submachine gun was invented by General John Thompson around 1920 - planned for, but too late for, WWI. That was well after the time when the first Fords were introduced.

As for the bayonet being next to useless as weapons, I have to disagree. While they have not lately been used as mass offensive weapons (nor is the modern bayonet intended for that purpose), they have their uses. As late as the Korean War, 1950-1953, a full rifle company, about 150 men at the time, successfully overran an enemy position by making a company-sized bayonet charge against them. That was Co E, 27th Infantry (Wolfhounds), commanded by then-Captain Lewis Millett. But more normal was the use of the bayonet as an emergency or defensive weapon. I just last week interviewed a WWII retiree (I've known him for years, but interviewed him formally for a piece I'm writing), who was awarded the Medal of Honor for heroic action in the Philippines in WWII. In leading his company in an attack against a Japanese position, being wounded three times in the process, he personally dispatched seven of the enemy, some with rifle fire, some with the bayonet. He told me he had to use the bayonet each time he'd fired eight rounds with his M-1 and it kicked the clip out, leaving him unloaded and unprotected for the moment. I don't call that "next to useless."

I have also known a Medal of Honor holder who dispatched several enemy soldiers with his entrenching tool, so you have a point. I guess it depends on what you have readily available at the time.

And I realize none of this really has much to do with the subject of this thread.

[James D. Macdonald]

Thompson submachinegun model 1919 serial E and F were on the piers in New Jersey waiting to be shipped to France for testing when the Armistice was signed.

Interestingly enough, both were fitted for belt feed as well as magazine feed -- and both had bayonet lugs.

[scarletpeaches]

Jam was invented in 1987.

[AncientEagle]

Jam was invented in 1987.

But Pearl Jam was invented in 1990.

[scarletpeaches]

But Pearl Jam was invented in 1990.

That's because it took them an extra three years to boil down with all that sugar.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

LMFAO! Wow, I thought Pearl Jam was older. ROFL! That scene from Robin Hood left me falling out of my seat. Yes, I am still in high school, and of course like you said, pianoman5, my teachers don't teach much of any history or culture. What we learn is distorted, untrue or just out of place. Reph- yea I know a little bit about that. When my families came over from Italy and Ukraine, they were forced to take on new names. Although, my Ukrainian side was more than happy to Americanize, because Ukraine was too poor and the government wasnt good to them.
I am sorry I am not so specific in my questions; by the olden days I meant way into the past, basically before electricity or around the time of its discovery. I am sorry I wasn't too clear.
HapiSofi and Sassenach: I am sorry to upset you about asking a simple question. Just because I started this thread about my book doesn't mean I am not going to research as well. I just figured people might be able to help me begin my research by giving me that little push, in a way.
Excuse me for that literary mistake. I meant time period.
I appreciate the help that you guys gave!

[zornhau]

Three suggestions:

#1 Take mine and Uncle J's advice and read Prisoner of Zenda - it's short and fun.

As you read the e-text, copy any sections of day-to-day period detail; breakfast, bedding, clothing etc - I think you'll find that there aren't many of these - and paste them into another document. Recycle them as you draft your novel.

(If you're old enough, try the same with a Flashman novel, e.g. "Flashman at the Charge" (PG!))

#2
Write the novel and do the research later.

Reasoning: until you've written or closely analysed a novel, you won't know what research you actually need. If you're writing a period adventure romp, you don't really need to know what people had for breakfast, unless the hero gets into a shoot-out over his croissants.

#3
Create a summary or outline of the novel, then research the stuff you need

This is a bit like option #2, except that you start by summarising your story as if telling it to a mate - i.e. not just a list of chapters. What you're after is the chain of cause and effect.
NB Some people find this kills their story.

Hope this helps. As it happens, I am a former academic historian, so if you get stuck, drop me a line and I'll try to help.

[Aconite]

I am sorry I am not so specific in my questions; by the olden days I meant way into the past, basically before electricity or around the time of its discovery
*groan*
"Way into the past" = "Before the discovery of electricity."

Good gods. No wonder my family didn't believe me when I told them I'd worked with manuscript pages over eight hundred years old. History just started a couple hundred years ago, doncha know.

Addendum:
Pianoman, you get today's award for Making Aconite's Morning Drink Hit Aconite's Sinuses.

[James D. Macdonald]

First: Pianoman's excerpt could be from a really good book (or a real stinker) depending on how the rest of it went.

Next: I think that S2F should do a bit of research before writing that novel. At least a whole lot of reading -- otherwise the novel itself might depend on impossible things.

S2F, since you're in high school a book a day isn't impossible for you. Certainly if you're reading less than a book a week I'd wonder. If you aren't in the library every day ... well, go there.

[NeuroFizz]

An added fact about Time Zones that you might be interested in, Sunrise, is that they were first thought up by railroads in the 19th Century. The railroads found that just judging time by when the sun rose to high noon in such a large country as the U.S., was a major headache in that what was noon in one state was not necessarily noon in another. They used the Time Zones to keep their timetables exact, and to keep timing-related accidents down to a minimum.

Ah. Now it all makes sense--why Newfoundland is off by the half-hour.

[MadScientistMatt]

"Before electricity" can be its own can of worms. Static electricity has been known since ancient times - in fact, for so long that it's just about impossible to be more precise than that, but the ancient Greeks certainly knew about it. Scientists began to study electricity around the 1600's, mostly by doing things like trying to capture lightning or working with static charges. Ben Franklin is often credited with being the first to use the terms positive and negative electricity.

When Volta invented the battery in 1800, however, scientists finally had a simple way to study electric current. The nineteenth century saw many practical electric inventions: motors, generators, telegraphs, telephones, and light bulbs. Some river battles in the Civil War were fought with electric weapons, as the Confederates defended their forts with "torpedoes" - floating bombs detonated by wire control. On the other hand, it took a while for some of these technologies to appear in every home. Not all the houses at the time of the first Ford cars were wired for electricity, particularly in rural areas.

[AncientEagle]

[QUOTE=MadScientistMatt Not all the houses at the time of the first Ford cars were wired for electricity, particularly in rural areas.[/QUOTE]

In fact, in large sections of the rural US, not all houses were wired for electricity until the late 1940s.

[James D. Macdonald]

Heck, not all houses are wired for electricity right now today.

[scarletpeaches]

I live in a mudhut with a bucket for a toilet. Don't ask how I shower.

What's electricity?

[sassandgroove]

I live in a mudhut with a bucket for a toilet. Don't ask how I shower.

What's electricity?
:hi:How do you get online?

[scarletpeaches]

Bah!

You rumbled my story then!

I'm gonna have to work harder than this to capture people's willingness to suspend their disbelief...

[MarkPettus]

that would help me more throughout the whole planning vs. writing process. If I go ahead, like everyone is saying, and writing out what I know. The one problem is with me, I am a perfectionist when it comes to my writing. I have to know everything

S2F, if you wait until your story is perfect to write it, at best you are going to be very old before you finish.

I live in a mudhut with a bucket for a toilet. Don't ask how I shower.

What's electricity?

My step-sister lives in a lean-to built onto a cliff face. She dug herself a toilet, but does not have either electricity or running water. She's lived there since the 1970s, when she returned from a Peace Corps assignment in South America.

She is also the head librarian at a large university. She uses the internet at work.

It isn't necessary to suspend belief, simply to think outside the box.

[scribbler1382]

It isn't necessary to suspend belief, simply to think outside the box.

Or at least make sure the Professor is there to build a router out of coconuts and an old iron.

[johnnysannie]

One thing this thread demonstrates is the necessity and value of good research.

As a historian and writer, I'll toss a few things in the pot to be mulled over:

Ford was NOT the first automobile introduced when it debuted in 1908. It was considering the first car for the non-rich but with a price of $850 for the first Model-T's, automobiles remained beyond most working folks reach for some time (decades). Automobiles in various forms had been around since the 1890's. In fact, the first ever speed limits (in New York State) were established in 1904, four years before ol' Henry sold the first Model-T.

The practice of women cutting their hair for style (other than in mourning, during a life threatening illness, or for comfort) didn't go into vogue until the 1920's, some years after Ford was introduced. Even then, ALL women did not cut their hair and I know of several religious sects in the United States in which women do not cut their hair (ever, at all, from birth) in the year 2005.

Even in this cyber age, the library remains a vital source of information and writers (and would-be or beginning writers) should find it a place they enjoy frequenting on a regular basis. In addition, the Internet allows a broader field of research at the touch of your fingertips although history novices should beware because there is a great deal of conflicting historical information out there. If you don't know at least a little or confirm that the site information is valid, it can be easy to make terrible errors.

Submarines did exist and were used during the Civil War although they were a far different machine than subs of later eras. By the same token, some of the World War II era subs (several of which I have toured in dry dock) are very small compared to today's subs.

As has been pointed out in this thread, regional differences account for many broad differences - then and now. One poster mentioned that venison was not commonly eaten in the era of the first Fords. I beg to differ. In some areas - rural areas in which the deer populations remained large enough to support hunting - many families could and did eat venision.

The best suggestion I have for anyone researching historical detail for fiction is to go in-depth and remember that you'll gather far more information that you will work into the story. It is important, though, to have the knowledge so that you don't make glaring errors and also vital that the information used be correct or someone, sooner or later, will call you on it.

[Danger Jane]

Or at least make sure the Professor is there to build a router out of coconuts and an old iron.
I did that last week, then tested it out on my sister. It electrocuted her. :|

[James D. Macdonald]

A writer's reading should be broad. Not just (for example) romance novels, but novels in other genres, and histories, biographies, science, economics, religion, philosophy, travel, humor ... everything.

Fill yourself with information. That's where inspiration comes from. If you're going to make mud pies first you need dirt and water.

[ChunkyC]

Based on some of the previous posts, I can't help but wonder if it takes half an hour after flipping the switch for a light to come on in Newfoundland.

Off to the library....

[maestrowork]

If you can't decide what time period or place (or made up time and place) you want to set your story, what they eat for breakfast would be the last of your concerns.

[Dawno]

Or at least make sure the Professor is there to build a router out of coconuts and an old iron.

Marty, the lawyers here at the router manufacturing company I work for want to know how you got hold of that bit of confidential Intellectual Property...

[HapiSofi]

Johnnysannie -- you're right, I was thinking Model T not Model A. When the Model A was introduced, there were still parts of America where people were essentially living 18th C. lives.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

Sorry guys! I keep screwing up the whole era thing. I have it set in my head and all, but I cant exactly explain the types I want. Of course that always happens with me anyways. Of course I am going to do research for my story. I am not just going to leave it up to you guys. I just wanted to know what you guys had in mind first. Thanks for your help.

[scarletpeaches]

I have it set in my head and all, but I cant exactly explain the types I want.

Presents a bit of a problem for someone who wants to be a writer then! ;)

[watcher]

The Model T Ford was produced between 1908 and 1927, the Model A from '28 to '31.

All that really happened in that time, apart from the first world war of course, was Prohibition and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. None of which involved swords.

The first electric light was invented in 1800, and the modern carbon-filament lightbulb was patented in 1881.

The handgun was invented in the mid 15th century, FYI. The flintlock musket made it a useful proposition in 1612. More pertinently, The Colt revolver was patented in 1836 and the Gatling gun in 1861, both of which predate the invention of the horseless carriage.

I'd suggest that before you worry about what your characters are eating, you place them somewhere more specific than 'the olden days'.



Then again, they supposedly had gun powder or at least some kind of 'explosives' in Atlantis!
Yeah, yer gonna have to pick a specific era of the 'olden days'.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

Ok, you will all be happy to hear this; I have set the era.

I am going to place my story in modern times, but where a lot of the people still use/have stuff from the early 19oo's {or so, judging by all of your posts} for example; they will have swords and use those as main weapons {although guns will come into play probably} and the electricity they have will be more developed like todays. Bad example but I hope you get what I mean. So I am going to use the information presented from you guys and of course study. {For those of you accusing me of being too lazy to study just by starting this thread....}
Thanks all, you have been a great help!
~Lizz

[sassandgroove]

Sunrise, I am glad you set your era. I never thought you were too lazy to study. I just thought you were young. I am sorry you felt attacked, I think most if not all the people were just trying to help you. I hope you will keep coming here for advice, and of course to offer your insight on things. Sheesh, when I was your age I was too busy being a social butterfly and daydreaming. I half heartedly wrote things and kept it all to myself. I never admitted to anyone I wanted to write. So good for you, and keep up the good work!

[jackie106]

You don't have to confine yourself to the library to do historical research. You could talk to your grandparents about how their parents lived in the early 20th century.

Does you city have a local historical museum? You can learn a lot by seeing the common household objects used by people of that time.

If it's possible, take a trip to NYC and tour the weapons rooms at the Met. Most of the swords are from a much earlier era, but seeing the weaponry up close is pretty amazing. (If you can't make it down to the Met, take a look at this slideshow (http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/viewHigh.asp?dep=4&viewmode=0).)

Jackie

[Sassenach]

Ok, you will all be happy to hear this; I have set the era.

I am going to place my story in modern times, but where a lot of the people still use/have stuff from the early 19oo's {or so, judging by all of your posts} for example; they will have swords and use those as main weapons {although guns will come into play probably} and the electricity they have will be more developed like todays. Bad example but I hope you get what I mean. So I am going to use the information presented from you guys and of course study. {For those of you accusing me of being too lazy to study just by starting this thread....}
Thanks all, you have been a great help!
~Lizz

Where would swords be the main weapon at the same time electricity was available?

[Lenora Rose]

I think if you really have your heart set on swords being in serious use, you will have to go earlier than this century. While the Bayonet was in use as a weapon more recently, swords weren't worn by anyone who wasn't an actual soldier anymore. Think about books you like - or movies, or tv shows. Can you name any that have the kind of 'feel' you want? Do you want The Three Musketeers? Pirates of the Caribbean? Pride and Prejudice but with swordfights? King Arthur? Shakespeare in Love? Indiana Jones? A Clint Eastwood western? This will help us help you pinpoint things.

The idea isn't even to be historically accurate (Ask someone conversant with the history of the Caribbean how much resemblance Pirates of the Caribbean bears to the real time and place - even without the zombie-pirates. Let's just say, not much.) It just has to be solid enough to convince people to enjoy the story. I knows swords being in use well after they were made obsolete is one that annoys a lot of people. I also know 21st century opinions popping up in a 14th century mouth is aggravating -- although it's hard to get into the head of someone from another time and place.

Someone earlier suggested using the children's section of the library for your initial research. I just wanted to point out that, A) yes, this is a very good idea for the first basic notes, but also B) this ISN'T someone condescending at you, or considering you ignorant.

Several professional writers suggest it as THE best starting place, for anyone who isn't already a history professor. (As well as our own Uncle Jim, Connie Willis - whose fantasy novels include extensive use of history, culture, and details from World War II, Victorian and plague-era medieval history - raved about this as a great not-so-secret trick to getting the first rough outline, and Terry Pratchett agreed.)

[sassandgroove]

While Lenora and others make a valid historical point about swords, I remember Sunrise, you mentioned Daredevil at some point, did you not? Daredevil, while living in our modern time, lives in a comic book reality. There are lots of characters in that kind of world that would believably carry a sword. Blade, for instance. (My husband would know more) And what Lenora said about Pirates applies here too. Don't pigeonhole so much; Sunrise probably has a great idea and we're all mired in that pesky reality.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

You only have to appear to know everything! Just make stuff up and fix it later.

I would say refer to that. Hey, if I could make it believable, why not?!

[AncientEagle]

I am sorry you felt attacked, I think most if not all the people were just trying to help you. I hope you will keep coming here for advice

I agree with what Sassandgroove says, Sunrise. Keep coming here for advice, and before you know it, you'll be able to bombard newcomers with dogmatic statements and superior tones just like the rest of us.

[SeanDSchaffer]

While Lenora and others make a valid historical point about swords, I remember Sunrise, you mentioned Daredevil at some point, did you not? Daredevil, while living in our modern time, lives in a comic book reality. There are lots of characters in that kind of world that would believably carry a sword. Blade, for instance. (My husband would know more) And what Lenora said about Pirates applies here too. Don't pigeonhole so much; Sunrise probably has a great idea and we're all mired in that pesky reality.


A good example of a story about our present time and the use of swords is the TV series 'Highlander'. For those who don't know, the main character is an immortal man who must fight with fellow immortals using a sword.

If Sunrise2Fantasy is in fact writing fantasy, it makes sense that not everything in the story be historically accurate.

[James D. Macdonald]

You can make anything believable if:

You believe it yourself (at least for the duration of writing the book)
You're completely internally consistent
You work out all the implications of what you've doing
Your departures from reality make the hero's life harder.

[Sunrise2Fantasy]

Thanks James. At least now when I go back to edit my story I know the things to look for to make sure it's believable material.