Writing for anthologies a career breaker?

I wouldn't call them a career breaker, but I would seriously reconsider churning out anthology submissions before working on a more serious novel-length work.

Anthologies are a strange beast. All writers trying to get their names out yearn to clutch a shiny contributor's copy, to add that little tidbit of publication to their forum signatures and brag proudly that they've finally done it.

I see anthologies like this - they're constantly putting out calls for various niche concepts - vampire mermaids, electric bugs, grey goo scenarios, etc. They're fun to write a short work for, maybe an afternoon or two's worth of effort - and if it doesn't work, oh well - you didn't spend much time writing it anyway.

The problem lies in the long-term viability of that short ficiton you just wrote. How many drainpipe romance anthologies are there going to be out there for you to submit "Sewer Princess" to after getting rejected from the first? If the answer is 'few,' then what do you plan to do with it now? You may have learned a new technique or something like that from the time spent, but you've ultimately accomplished nothing. If the answer is 'many,' then what the hell is the publisher thinking putting out another vampire romance antho? It's a good indication that they have no idea what they're doing, and are likely a fledgling press soon to crash and burn.

That being said, some anthologies do sell well and become classics, but the short story market to me is more like warmup for the real game. If you burn yourself out in practice, your a-game isn't going to come through when you need it to.

Who are the people who can live off of short story works? Not many. The ones that make money are the ones who have published novel length work.

Put the focus from all the senseless submissions into perfecting your work, the one that will gain you a readership rather than a smirk when they finish your 5,000 word limmerick.

Just a thought - not a career breaker, but not a builder either.

They said FYI: "Such anthologies may not be the best career move for writers, but it's unfair to suggest the people producing them are going to get rich at the expense of others. Most won't make back the money they spent on producing it in the first place."

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:editor's hat on:

If you get paid it is a professional credit. Writing that puts money in your pocket is usually a good move.

If you're sticking to non-paying markets or pays in copies only, then no, that won't cut ice with most editors, but if you're selling to anthologies edited by Marty Greenberg, other packagers, and various magazines out there, that tells them you're worth checking out should you submit longer work down the road. Any sale that gives you a check goes on your resume.

Anthologies usually do not make much of a profit and rarely provide royalties for the writers, but again, they are a pro publishing credit and you DID get paid. You write one story, sub, and write another, rinse-repeat.

If you like to do short stories, that is completely OKAY! It's a difficult craft to master. I've dealt with established novelists who can't do them! If you can and can sell, more power to you. You may not make much money at it, but it keeps your writing gears lubricated and puts your name on a page.

I write short stories because it's like getting paid to advertise. Someone buys the anthology because their fav writer has a story in it. They read mine, like it, and look to see what else I've written. Ker-ching-ker-ching!

Look up this writer, Edward D. Hoch.

Over 900 stories!?!?!?!

Didn't hurt HIS career.

I absolutely agree with Gillhoughly! A credit is a credit, but a PAYING credit is the key. If you submit to anthos that only pay in book copies, not advances, it won't help your career at all.

And, it says nothing about your ability to craft a novel (if that's your intention.) But I know plenty of romance and erotica novelists who broke out by selling to anthos in Ellora's Cave and magazines like Realms of Fantasy.

It won't hurt, provided you keep your searching to those anthos that pay money, at a semi-pro level at least ($0.03-$0.05 per word).

I dunno. I've got one anth credit, but it was a "humorous essay," and I wouldn't put it in a query for my book. But, I don't think someone would see it and be all, "OH NO! I CANNOT WORK WITH SOMEONE THAT WOULD PRODUCE SUCH THINGS! *dramatic hand upon brow*"

I suppose if your ultimate goal is writing novels, it might not be for the best, if it's taking all of your time. But as the wise Gillhoughly said, a paying credit is a paying credit.

I see myself as a writer, some freelance, some non-fiction, a short story her and there, working on a novel, anthologies are part of that. It has lead to better things for me, I'm going to be editing an anthology for a publisher that has published my submissions. It's a good gig, and my past submissions helped me get it.

I look at it like this. If you like churning out a short story or two, no use letting it waste when it can work for you. Either promote you as an author, to pursue in contest or sell to magazines or anthologies. Take any opportunity to promote yourself positively. It's called marketing yourself, your brand and if you get a shot of it by using something you like to do anyway, go for it.

I need to stop giving opinionated advice I know nothing about.

IDGS said:

I need to stop giving opinionated advice I know nothing about.

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Now, now, you're totally right, too.

Writing short stories did use to be the warm-up to selling a novel.

But now the paying markets have shrunk to a fraction of what they used to be, so editors are picky about what they accept, and they do favor established writers.

If I have a so-so story by a NYT bestselling writer and a VERY good story by an unknown, I'll be happy to include both.

If it's a question of the slots are all filled, then the established writer will be the one I pick because of guaranteed sales.

I've sold work to at least 25 different anthologies, and only three paid out their advance--and got me royalties--mostly because they had BIG names in them, as in international bestseller Names.

Publishers DO make some money on anthologies, else they'd stop printing them. They may not make enough to pay out the advance, but they DO get back their expenses and turn a profit. Remember that the writers' advance is their smallest expense.

All my writer heroes started out doing short stories but better believe they got PAID for their work. No freebies. Good grief, can you imagine Harlan Ellison or Ray Bradbury doing a story that only pays in copies? No freakin' way.

As it happens, my first sales were short articles to a niche-market magazine. I got paid, they counted as pro work. When my future editor called and asked if I'd sold anything else, I was glad to say, "Yes, whasit magazine bought everything I ever sent them."

And...

there are some writers who write and sell short stories to the British and Commonwealth women's magazine markets who make a living! Mind you that is getting harder, but ten years ago it was easy with more UK magazines and their high rates of pay, and then all the sales to the Commonwealth countries.

Writing a good short story is a difficult skill and quite different from novel writing. If you can sell to an anthology which is a paying market, as everyone has said, that's a writing credit.

For new writers with little time to spend writing, (just snatches per day or week) then the confidence they gain from writing a complete short story, and learning to market it, is a plus for their writing career.

ArcticFox said:

I happen to like finding calls for anthologies and writing something to fit the theme. If it doesn't get in I just submit somewhere else. Someone commented here on the forum that doing so is not good for your career. This is something I haven't heard of before. What do you guys think?

They said FYI: "Such anthologies may not be the best career move for writers, but it's unfair to suggest the people producing them are going to get rich at the expense of others. Most won't make back the money they spent on producing it in the first place."

While they were defending anthologies in their comments, I just don't see how they are a bad career move.

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You could have just asked me what I meant. You are taking it out of context. I was talking about hobby anthologies, produced by someone with no resources, no distribution and no readership. It wasn't a comment about all anthologies.

The comment was in reply to someone who thought the person producing the hobby anthology was getting a huge advance from a major publisher and keeping it for themselves. Most hobby anthology makers won't make a profit, but will make a loss (because no one buys the anthology).

I didn't mean it'd kill your career. I meant that no one will read your story. Even the other contributors probably won't get around to reading your story. I'm not someone who thinks that only professional markets will do, but if they're not paying in money, they better be paying in reputation and/or readers. Many of the anthologies asking for submissions on AW don't offer any of those things. All they offer is a piece of paper with your story on it (and some of them don't survive long enough to give you that).

I've sold to paying anthologies and paying magazines, and I've passed some stuff off to non-paying markets (some that I liked, and some that I don't know what the hell I was thinking). Anyway, I only list some of my paying credits when in submission cover letters, because I know the non-paying, unknown ones are pretty much useless. What I'm saying is that non-paying credits don't advance your career, but paying anthology credits are helpful in showing that you can get paid for your writing (obviously). The fact that someone actually writes you a check for your writing has a lot of meaning and is not to be overlooked. It means you've proven that you're ready for publication.

Anthologies are their own creative challenge. I think it can be a good experience writing to someone else's brief.

Selling something, by which I mean getting paid for something, is never, ever a bad thing. You do have to know yourself, but there's no reason on earth why writing short stories should slow down writing a novel.

And short stories can still make a splash, wherever they're published.

But the reason to write short stories is because you love reading and writing short stories. If you do love reading and writing the, you;re a damned fool if you don't write them. If you don't like reading and writing short stories, you're a damned fool if you do write them for some ulterior motive.

The comment was in reply to someone who thought the person producing the hobby anthology was getting a huge advance from a major publisher and keeping it for themselves.

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Hang on.




Oh, I had to get that out of my system. Hooo-wee!

The "huge" advance is used to pay the writers. If you should be lucky enough to land a contract and get a 5000.00 advance, and pay writers .05 a word for 100,000 words, there is *nothing* left.

Now if you're a complete skunk and pay only in copies or a penny a word, well, you likely won't get good writers, the collection doesn't sell, and the publisher won't deal with you again.

Publisher's Row is a small village. They gossip. They find out about this kind of thing and have long memories.


This is about the first anthology I put together:

A book packager who literally has done 100s of collections, approached me back in the day to edit a theme anthology. Since I didn't know any better I gave him my agent's number, thinking that's how it's done.

My agent negotiated a deal with a publisher, got an 8K advance, and kept 2,000 of it for himself.

I thought, Huh? What? That's more than 15%! but I was too green to question him on it. I trusted him. The packager didn't say anything because he thought I was in on the rip, and he wanted my name on the cover.

The remaining 6K was to be divided up to pay the writers. I hardly need mention that when they turned their stories in, the packager was several hundred bucks in the red. I got paid for my story, but no pay at all for my editorial work, which was considerable, along with all the postage I had to buy, since this was before email.

My future ex-agent, however, was 2000.00 ahead, and I still get royalty statements on that title through his office. The book has more or less been in print since the early 90s and still not earned out its advance because of him. I only found out later from older and wiser heads in the industry that my agent pulled shit like that as a matter of course, keeping the difference.

One can be too slick for one's own good.

I did later talk with the packager and was horrified when he told me what had gone on. Thankfully I was able to assure him I was not a part of that, never got any of the money off the top and was just as PO'd about things and ready to fire the agent. He told me not to make a fuss with the agent, water under the bridge, only next time would I prefer to deal directly?

Damn skippy, I did. We did another collection and his people usually call on me if they need a short story, so it was no hard feelings there.

I did fire that agent and have a really outstanding one now. She snags anthology jobs for me, takes her 15% out of what *I* earn on it, not off the top with lots of padding.

Most hobby anthology makers won't make a profit, but will make a loss (because no one buys the anthology).

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Yup. Pretty much. So do the pros when there's a weasel in the henhouse.

Gillhoughly,

Good post. Enlightening. The only point I take issue with is when you said non-paying or penny-a-word anthos won't get good writers. Sadly, not always the case, since many new, talented writers get suckered into practically giving their work away because of the belief that any exposure is well worth the effort. But those anthos usually won't get established writers who are likely to move product, so same deal.

No argument, back when I started I'd have been grateful for a penny a word! Now it just ain't cost effective.

Sometimes established writers will take less to do favor for a friend. A few times I've asked friends to do a story for under their going rate and they've been kind enough to say yes. (More than a penny word, though!).

Or maybe they have a story they couldn't sell elsewhere and tweaked it to suit the theme.

Or, maybe writing is so effortless that they dash something off and move on to the next project. (I know a few like that and am in AWE.)

Yes, there are good writers out there and everyone has to start some place.

But if it's a choice between a penny a word for a small publication with 2K readers or .02 a word a word for one with 1K readers, I'll go for the bigger check every single time!

By the way, I'm one of those newer writers who still passes a story off for a penny a word (or less, in some cases). But I don't give them away for free anymore, at least, and lately I'm submitting only to pro or really strong semi-pro markets. I figure one pro sale is probably worth multiple sales to token-paying mags. So when I talk about new writers getting suckered by non-paying markets, well, that's me. Let's see...I don't get paid squat, but the editor still sells the antho and maybe does get paid. Hmm... Suddenly, I don't want to promote that editor's antho because I feel like a jackass. Suddenly, I regret giving him my story so he can make money off it. Shit...

I'll still submit to penny a word anthos if I've got an old story in the trunk that suits the theme. Who am I to turn my nose up at money, especially in this economy? The $86 I just earned from one such will buy my teenager's school lunch for a month.

I still "give away" some antho stories because they're too quirky for regular markets (but fit a particular antho) or because it's to raise money for a charitable cause. For short stuff, I don't think I really have a bottom limit that I WON'T sell for. Some of the major short story anthos on the market today pay pretty poor rates yet still attract some major players. But they're well known and decent selling on the shelf and act as promo for people who haven't heard of our books before. Cheap promo at that.

Blame my "cheap date" status on the freelance article market. Even some of the really top magazines don't pay for cr*p. I once wrote a feature article for a MAJOR glossy mag. It was $500 for 1,500 words, with 2 sidebars (meaning extra research) and had to rewrite it TWICE because the original planned focus (which is what I queried on) was decided to be not what they wanted for that issue. In addition, I had to provide a minimum of 20 photos---as slides, instead of digital . . . which to this day a lot of glossies still require, for them to choose from. Three were printed and the small price they paid for the photos didn't even cover the processing of the shots into slides. It took me over a month to research three versions of the article and reach the experts they insisted I use for quotes, plus take the photos. Sigh... Lost my shirt on that deal, but the credit is still on my bio and it's a tough market to crack.

I'd probably do that again. It's that good a credit when querying other projects.

Compare that to the short story it took me a weekend to write that paid $.25 a word. That one will double my day job paycheck for a month.

But I'd still do both again.

I never, ever give a story away, but I will sell a story for whatever rate it can get. I write stories aimed for the top markets, and then work my way down the list.

Just because a story sells for a penny per word doesn't mean it can't sell as a reprint, can't go in a collection, can't be picked up by a reprint anthology, can't win a good award, etc.

I try to sell every story for as much as I can get, but a story sold for anything is better than a story in a desk drawer, or wasting space on your hard drive.

I've made a fair bit of money from stories that initially sold for very little.

Chris P said:

Great thread! I submitted a story to a "pays in copies" anthology that I am afraid might not ever get published. There has been no contract so far, so I guess that means I can send it elsewhere in the meantime, right?

Do anthologies usually only take first rights in the contract? I'm assuming I should avoid any contract wanting perpetual rights (or whatever they're called) in case the book tanks, right? I think this is one of my better stories and I'd hate to see it sitting in an unread anthology.

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It depends on whether or not the anthology allows for simultaneous subs or not, but some writers say Bah! to that and sim sub anyway (you make your own rules at your own reputation risk, know what I'm saying?). If you want to keep it squeaky clean, check the antho's guidelines and see if it says sim subs are okay. If it does, sim sub the hell out of it (depending on what the other markets say) because you might get a better deal than pays-in-copies somewhere else.

All rights to a non-paying market? Man, I wouldn't do that! If you're selling all rights, it better be for a heck of a lot--because it makes reprint sales impossible since you no longer own the story.

Dungeon Geek said:

It depends on whether or not the anthology allows for simultaneous subs or not, but some writers say Bah! to that and sim sub anyway (you make your own rules at your own reputation risk, know what I'm saying?). If you want to keep it squeaky clean, check the antho's guidelines and see if it says sim subs are okay. If it does, sim sub the hell out of it (depending on what the other markets say) because you might get a better deal than pays-in-copies somewhere else.

All rights to a non-paying market? Man, I wouldn't do that! If you're selling all rights, it better be for a heck of a lot--because it makes reprint sales impossible since you no longer own the story.

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I don't think simultaneous submissions are a good idea, even if the markets allow it.