DIALOGUE: Punctuation & Conventions

[Mistook]

This is just a thread to discuss the basic mechanics of dialogue. I've been seeing some stuff in SYW where one character's actions are mixed into the same paragraph as another character's speech.

I've also been recently upbraided for connective commas, so obviously I don't really have it down either. For the sake of noobs, and as an opportunity for oldbs (?) to wax wise, lets go over the rules for formatting dialogue, shall we?


1. Keep a character's speech and action together, right? start a new paragraph whenever a "turn" is taken in action or word by a character? Are there exceptions to this?

2. Comma precedes quotes only when... (?)

3. Period precedes quoted sentence when... (?)

4. What if you have an exclamatory sentence of dialogue followed by explanatory tag or narrative. Do you put a (!) before the closing quote, or a comma?

5. You can imagine all the other questions that might come up in a thread like this. What are you two cents on the mechanics of dialogue?

[reph]

1. Keep a character's speech and action together, right? start a new paragraph whenever a "turn" is taken in action or word by a character? Are there exceptions to this?
Lots of judgment calls here. Always start a new paragraph when someone speaks who isn't the person who spoke in your current paragraph. For other situations, it depends. A fight scene might involve many actions by several characters but require only one paragraph.

2. Comma precedes quotes only when... (?)
Do you mean the comma after "He said" or the comma (in U.S. style) before the closing quotation mark?

3. Period precedes quoted sentence when... (?)
...when what precedes the period is a complete sentence.

John opened his briefcase. "I have all the documents right here."

4. What if you have an exclamatory sentence of dialogue followed by explanatory tag or narrative. Do you put a (!) before the closing quote, or a comma?
You put a "!" instead of the comma. Same with a question mark.

"Gosh darn it!" John said. He stared into the empty briefcase.

"What happened to the documents?" Bill asked.

[Maryn]

This section of an elderly handout might clarify some aspects of punctuating dialogue in the US--the rules aren't identical in the entire English-speaking world, of course.
-----
HOW DO I PUNCTUATE DIALOGUE? When your character finishes a sentence but you will add an attribute such as ‘he said,’ end the dialogue with a comma before the closing quotation mark (‘inside the quote’).

“Good for you,” he said.

Exclamations and questions keep their original end punctuation, also inside the final quotation mark. Do not add a comma in addition to the question mark or exclamation point.

“Good for you!” he said.

“Really?” she asked.

When your attribute interrupts dialogue, break it with a comma, put a comma after your attribute, and resume without capitalizing unless the next word requires it.

“But Sam,” I said, “you can’t swim!”

“But Sam,” I said, “Jan can’t swim!”

When your attribute appears at the end of a complete sentence of dialogue which resumes immediately after the attribute, the new sentence must be capitalized.

“She can dog-paddle,” Sam said. “She just can’t do the Australian crawl.”

“So what?” Sam said. “The water’s only three feet deep.”

When a character is recalling dialogue directly, word for word, and asking herself about it, the question mark is outside the quotation marks unless the dialogue itself was a question. (This one varies, so this is only one way that is acceptable, depending on who's doing the judging.)

Hadn’t I said, “You can’t leave”?

Didn’t she ask me, “Can I go now?”

But if dialogue is not directly quoted, no quotations or capitals are used.

Hadn’t I said she couldn’t leave?
-----
A lot of people who try their hand at writing (some with excellent results) have never been taught how to punctuate dialogue. Teaching yourself as an adult is a little harder, but you've probably got shelves and shelves of good examples.

Maryn, hoping this helped a bit

[sassandgroove]

THANK YOU!!!!:Clap: :banana: :Hail:

[Sharon Mock]

Engaging in thread resurrection in order to ask a varsity-level question:
"Who are you running from? Or should I ask--" as he squeezed her hand in a way that made her bones twinge-- "who are you running to?"
Is this punctuated properly, despite being only slightly less ugly than sin? It wouldn't be difficult to revise it to get rid of the issue entirely, but at the moment I'm still rather fond of that mid-sentence beat. (By the way, the speaker's lack of grammatic nicety is intentional.)

And would this alternate form also be properly punctuated?
"Who are you running from? Or should I ask--" He squeezed her hand in a way that made her bones twinge. "--who are you running to?"
(Man, that's ugly. The first is far preferable.)

[Mistook]

Engaging in thread resurrection in order to ask a varsity-level question:

Is this punctuated properly, despite being only slightly less ugly than sin? It wouldn't be difficult to revise it to get rid of the issue entirely, but at the moment I'm still rather fond of that mid-sentence beat. (By the way, the speaker's lack of grammatic nicety is intentional.)

And would this alternate form also be properly punctuated?

(Man, that's ugly. The first is far preferable.)


I'm no expert, but taking a stab at this, I'd say you don't need the second M dash in either version. I can see why you'd want to use the first M dash rather than an elipsis, to get across the suddenness. I also do like that mid sentence beat, and having it all flow as one sentence with the "as" after the break.

That's now how I would've thought to do it, but having seen it, I like it.

[reph]

"Who are you running from? Or should I ask--" as he squeezed her hand in a way that made her bones twinge-- "who are you running to?"
No. This* will work:

"Who are you running from? Or should I ask"--he squeezed her hand in a way that made her bones twinge--"who are you running to?"

________
*Assuming that bones can twinge.

[victoriastrauss]

No. This* will work:

"Who are you running from? Or should I ask"--he squeezed her hand in a way that made her bones twinge--"who are you running to?"Yup. Somehow I have a blind spot with this, and persist in putting the em dashes inside the quotation marks. I'm going through a copy edited ms. right now, and the copy editor has had to correct this several times.

- Victoria

[maestrowork]

Just be consistent. If you use the em-dash in place of commas in dialogue, then use it consistently. I believe in Cold Mountain, Fraser uses em-dashes in place of quotation marks. You get used to it after a while since he's very consistent.

[aruna]

Here's a useful page on hyphens and dashes:
http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/091502.htm

Recently I read anovel in which the author did not punctuate dialogue at all.
(The In-between World of Vikram Lall).

Typical dialoigue in this book:


What was the marriage ceremony like? Papa asked.
Dada said, The medicine man sprinkled the couple with water, they had to wear leaves and walk around, and then they went to spend the night in a hut.
Wah, said Papa with a sigh.
You sound regretful you didn't marry a Masai, Mother reprimanded.

Even though I liked the book, I found this very irritating. It seemed to make the characters and their conversation cold; almost like reported speech. I didn't see any reason for it; it seems some kind of post-modern literary device without any practical purpose.

(PS sorry, can't get it to indent. The dialogue IS indented.)

[maestrowork]

What was the marriage ceremony like? Papa asked.
Dada said, The medicine man sprinkled the couple with water, they had to wear leaves and walk around, and then they went to spend the night in a hut.
Wah, said Papa with a sigh.
You sound regretful you didn't marry a Masai, Mother reprimanded.

Even though I liked the book, I found this very irritating.

I think sometimes we feel irritated because it seems like the authors are trying too hard to be cute and different. And dialogue without the proper punctuations just reads raw and unpolished.

[aruna]

I think sometimes we feel irritated because it seems like the authors are trying too hard to be cute and different. And dialogue without the proper punctuations just reads raw and unpolished.

Yes. Trying to hard. BTW I got the name in the title wrong: Vikram Lall, not Seth

[reph]

aruna, to see the code for indenting, bring up this post as if you were going to reply to it:
Sample of indented text

It's easy once you know the trick.

[aruna]

aruna, to see the code for indenting, bring up this post as if you were going to reply to it:Sample of indented text

It's easy once you know the trick.

testing:

What was the marriage ceremony like? Papa asked.
Dada said, The medicine man sprinkled the couple with water,
they had to wear leaves and walk around, and then they went to spend the night in a hut.
Wah, said Papa with a sigh.
You sound regretful you didn't marry a Masai, Mother reprimanded.

Ok, that worked.. but how do I get parts of that NOT to indent?

[reph]

Oh, you're asking how to get a paragraph indent? I don't know.

Testing by indenting five spaces, using the space bar, and typing a long line that should come back to the left margin after using up the available width ... ... ... ... ... ...

Well, that didn't work. You can get an indent within an indent by using the "indent" command twice, but I don't know how to make this software handle runovers properly.

[Jamesaritchie]

Just be consistent. If you use the em-dash in place of commas in dialogue, then use it consistently. I believe in Cold Mountain, Fraser uses em-dashes in place of quotation marks. You get used to it after a while since he's very consistent.

I think that was the publisher's choice. I never did get used to it, and stopped reading because I found it so incredibly annoying. I also wrote a nasty letter to the publisher.

[Sharon Mock]

Thanks for the help -- I don't feel quite so bad about not getting it right. I try to avoid the construction, but sometimes I just can't resist.

And of course bones can twinge. Just try backpacking seven miles without proper preparation and -- oh, wait. That has nothing to do with my example. Never mind.... :P

[sarbruis]

Hey, I've got a question. Please tell me if the following are correct:

1. "Sometimes . . ." he said. (Or should there be a comma?)
2. "What . . . ?" he asked.

[reph]

sarbruis, both examples look funny to me. I'm in a minority here in not accepting ". . ." in dialogue. I still want to reserve ellipses for omitted material – the way it USED to be! When people did things RIGHT! Before the DECLINE and FALL of English! Okay, you get the idea.

If ellipses to show where a speech trails off were suddenly to look natural to me, I'd still think something was wrong in those two examples. Trailing off means nothing follows. There should be a blank space (i.e., the rest of the line of type) to indicate silence. Putting "he said" there ruins the effect. You want a "nothing" after the utterance.

My opinion.

[MarkPettus]

Correct? I believe it is, but the better question is Reph's; does it work?

I don't think so, not in that sentence. If you trail off and then pick up again, dialogue attribution might provide a pause:

"Sometimes . . ." he said, "you have no choice."

If you are trailing off to silence, I agree with Reph that you should end with silence.

He said, "Sometimes...."

or "Sometimes...?"

[maestrowork]

Hey, I've got a question. Please tell me if the following are correct:

1. "Sometimes . . ." he said. (Or should there be a comma?)
2. "What . . . ?" he asked.


"Sometimes..." he said.

"What?" he asked. or "What--" he said.

[Jamesaritchie]

Hey, I've got a question. Please tell me if the following are correct:

1. "Sometimes . . ." he said. (Or should there be a comma?)
2. "What . . . ?" he asked.

I'm a firm believer in allowing ellipses in dialogue. It's been done forever, almost before there was such a thing as English, and done by the very best writers. It IS good English, and not doing it means getting it wrong. But even I think the above reads very poorly. I can't see a need for either, and both, in fact, look redundant.

If you want a pause in the first sentence, the "he said" takes care of it. If you're trying to show speech is trailing off, the he said looks out of place, words after silence. There are also quotation marks, so I know he said "Sometimes. . ." You don't have to tell me again by adding "he said" unless not doing so means I can't tell who the speaker is.

I may also be in the minority on this one, but I hate combining a question mark with the words "he asked." You don't need both. A question mark means "he asked," and "he asked" means you don't need the question mark

[Jamesaritchie]

"Sometimes..." he said.

"What?" he asked. or "What--" he said.

Or just:

"Sometimes. . ."

"What?"

[reph]

You can have something follow a trailing-off speech without causing incongruity if it isn't a speech tag and it starts a new sentence.

"Do you have trouble making decisions?" I asked.

"Well . . ." He looked away.

[fedorable1]

On a related note:

Is it preferable to type an ellipses as ... or . . . ?

Spaces or none?

[Jamesaritchie]

You can have something follow a trailing-off speech without causing incongruity if it isn't a speech tag and it starts a new sentence.

"Do you have trouble making decisions?" I asked.



"Well . . ." He looked away.

Yes. That works very well.

[Jamesaritchie]

On a related note:

Is it preferable to type an ellipses as ... or . . . ?

Spaces or none?

Spaces, particularly at the end of speech. With no spaces, a copyeditor may think you just layed on the period key too long, and change your ellipsis to a period. But at the end of speech, it should be four dots, not three. A three dot ellipsis, and then a period.

[reph]

fedorable, the Novels forum had a long discussion recently about ellipses and their spacing. It shouldn't be far from page 1.

[sarbruis]

My questions was purely about syntax, not about whether they worked or not. I just needed words put in there with the ellipses. But thanks, you've confirmed what I'd previously thought.

Also, regarding ellipses ending a sentence, I'm pretty sure it goes like this. . . . A period, then the three ellipsis periods. But if it's the end of a paragraph, you can just do three periods . . .

Is that correct?

[maestrowork]

According to the Associated Press Punctuation Guide, it's a period followed by a space, then the ellipses, as in "The world is a better place because of that. ..." -- that's RE: omission, of course. If it's a trailing speech, just the ellipses.

Obviously, these are only AP's guide for journalistic writing. But I don't think fiction writing is that much different.

[reph]

According to the Chicago manual, there are spaces between the dots, too. The recent thread on ellipses covered this.

Whether an ellipsis is at the end of a paragraph or in the middle of one doesn't change anything.

[jen.nifer]

Recently I read anovel in which the author did not punctuate dialogue at all.
(The In-between World of Vikram Lall).

Typical dialoigue in this book:


What was the marriage ceremony like? Papa asked.
Dada said, The medicine man sprinkled the couple with water, they had to wear leaves and walk around, and then they went to spend the night in a hut.
Wah, said Papa with a sigh.
You sound regretful you didn't marry a Masai, Mother reprimanded.

Even though I liked the book, I found this very irritating. It seemed to make the characters and their conversation cold; almost like reported speech. I didn't see any reason for it; it seems some kind of post-modern literary device without any practical purpose.

(PS sorry, can't get it to indent. The dialogue IS indented.)

Was just searching around on the forums here and thought I'd revive this; I have noticed more books are formatted in this way.

Is this a new fashion of some sort? A new standard perhaps?

Tim Winton does it in Cloudstreet and Miriam Toews does it in A Complicated kindness (the latter I purchased today).

During the read, I get used to it eventually... but I'm not sure I like it, and I can't see myself formatting my own work in this way.

Your thoughts?

[blacbird]

I believe Charles Frazier did this in Cold Mountain, and Cormac McCarthy is fond of it, too. I can't for the life of me see what it accomplishes, other than being cutesy (and more than a little pretentious). It doesn't ruin a read for me (I like much of McCarthy's stuff), but it just doesn't add anything to the work that I can discern. Punctuation conventions to me are much like spelling; they're there as conveniences to aid communication of information. Any departure from their use needs to have a good, and reader-transparent, reason.

I should note here that punctuation conventions (again like spelling, to some extent) do vary from nation to nation. British quotation punctuation standards differ from American ones, for example.

bird

[jules]

But at the end of speech, it should be four dots, not three. A three dot ellipsis, and then a period.

Note that this is US style; in the UK you should only ever use 3 (according to the Oxford Manual of Style at least).

[Jamesaritchie]

Note that this is US style; in the UK you should only ever use 3 (according to the Oxford Manual of Style at least).

Yes, UK style is still three, or at least that's the number I use when writing UK.

[Sage]

Yup. Somehow I have a blind spot with this, and persist in putting the em dashes inside the quotation marks. I'm going through a copy edited ms. right now, and the copy editor has had to correct this several times.

- Victoria

The dashes are supposed to be outside the quotations? Oh, boy.... :faint:

[Danger Jane]

1. Keep a character's speech and action together, right? start a new paragraph whenever a "turn" is taken in action or word by a character? Are there exceptions to this?

I don't start paragraphs according to "rules" all the time...I start a new paragraph when I feel that the action has taken a turn, yes. It's not a set thing--do what feels and sounds right.

2. Comma precedes quotes only when... (?)



...the tag precedes the quotes.eg: She picked up her purse and said, "I'd better go pick up John."




3. Period precedes quoted sentence when... (?)



...there is a complete sentence before the quoted sentence (dialogue).eg: She smiled. "I guess so."


4. What if you have an exclamatory sentence of dialogue followed by explanatory tag or narrative. Do you put a (!) before the closing quote, or a comma?




It depends upon your tag...if it feels like it merits an exclamation mark, then by all means put one.eg: "And...it's good!" he exclaimed the ball sailed into the net.



Apologies for (I'm sure) being REALLY redundant...