mixing Fantasy with History

wrombola · May 11, 2010

For those who write pure historical fiction do you feel that mixing fantasy elements into the story cheapens the genre?
I only ask because I have done this with my novel and can see that by adding supernatural, magical elements to a historical setting you run the risk of having your readers take the historical aspects of the story and your overall theme less seriously.
At this point I am torn between labeling what I have done Historical fantasy or just calling it Urban fantasy and take a chance on missing out on a large swath of potential readers.

DeleyanLee · May 11, 2010

If you're writing actual history with Fantasy elements, then you're writing Historical Fantasy. If you're writing a Fantasy with the flavor of history, you're probably writing plain Fantasy. Urban Fantasy is generally contemporary, not historical.

Don't worry about marketing it to readers at this point. You've got to market it to agents/editors first. Get close enough to the mark with them and they'll bullseye the category for the readers. It's part of their job.

Good luck with your work.

Puma · May 11, 2010

Being honest, I wouldn't touch an historical novel with fantasy elements with a ten foot pole no matter how accurate, compelling, or whatever the history might be. Fantasy is not history (and I feel the same about alternative history). I also look at it as - history is adult, serious business; fantasy is child, fanciful and imaginative. They don't go hand in hand in my mind. Puma

wrombola · May 11, 2010

Part of me feels the same way Puma the term historical fantasy sits funny with me. The words just seem diametrically opposed to one another. I am left with the feeling that my novel may disappoint those who love either genre.

DeleyanLee · May 11, 2010

Puma said:
Being honest, I wouldn't touch an historical novel with fantasy elements with a ten foot pole no matter how accurate, compelling, or whatever the history might be.

Which is why it would be shelved in the Fantasy section and not the Historical/General section--because many, if not most, Historical readers feel much the same way.

ETA: They don't feel weird to me because, frankly, in many point in Man's history, they believed--nay, they knew magic and the supernatural was real and a part of their world. To us, those are Fantasy elements, but to them, it was every day life. And many of those beliefs never truly died. In keeping with that mindset, I totally can see merging the two and being honest to both.

But that could just be me, I admit.

angeliz2k · May 11, 2010

I think it may depend on what you mean by fantasy elements.

These can be worked in as part of a historical person's perception of the world. Magic was very real to people in societies throughout time and all over the world. If your character believes in magic and believes they are seeing magic . . . then by all means.

Manda Scott's Boudicca series has fantastical Celtic stuff going on. It is a bit much at times, but the characters might have believed in that kind of thing.

But I have a feeling the fantasy you're talking about is of a different ilk. I personally wouldn't discount it out of hand. It could be interesting. Frankly, if it's written well, I would like it. I don't know if I'm in the minority, though.

wrombola · May 11, 2010

Well I am writing about the fountain of youth and hence immortality. The fountain is mentioned in history but it is very debatable if Ponce De Leon ever really believed in it when he "discovered" Florida in 1513. Very little is known of his journeys in Florida which eventually led to his death.
My premise for the novel is that Juan was in search of the fountain. He found it in south Florida in 1520 but is mortally wounded by a poison arrow. Before he passes away he makes it back to the fountain which is located in present day Miami and dies in it's waters.
Instead of receiving eternal life the collective sins of the Spanish, think genocide, greed, slavery, pollutes the waters. Juan lives on as an undead spirit still believing himself to be the governor Florida. The local Indians and a Jesuit priest end up working together in an effort to defeat him. The Indians see him as an evil spirit while the priest thinks he is the devil incarnate sent by God to frighten the Indians into converting to Catholicism. So from the perspective of the participants the antagonist fits neatly into their worldview.

DeleyanLee · May 11, 2010

I'd market that as a straight Fantasy, personally. YMMV.

Libbie · May 11, 2010

I feel that as long as the reader knows what he or she is getting when he or she picks up the book, it's all fair. Clearly label something as "historical fantasy" and you're good. When I pick up a book that's called "historical fiction," I expect that it will stay within the boundaries of our known world, and I would feel cheated if it went beyond those boundaries.

However, I am not a "purist" when it comes to my writing. I am working on a collection of short stories that are all "alternate history" works with strong sci-fi elements. So my opinion here may be a little skewed in comparison with the rest of the historical novelists.

firedrake · May 11, 2010

angeliz2k said:
I think it may depend on what you mean by fantasy elements.

These can be worked in as part of a historical person's perception of the world. Magic was very real to people in societies throughout time and all over the world. If your character believes in magic and believes they are seeing magic . . . then by all means.

Manda Scott's Boudicca series has fantastical Celtic stuff going on. It is a bit much at times, but the characters might have believed in that kind of thing.

This.

I was thinking of Pauline Gedge's 'The Eagle and the Raven' (also about Boudicca, as well as Caradoc). There's a bit of magic in there because it's what these people believed in. Certainly, in this novel it works beautifully.

lkp · May 12, 2010

I've just finished reading one of Scott's Boudicca novels, and I think that is a great example of how to use fantastical elements responsibly in historical fiction. I do think there is room for these elements, as others have said, as a way of expressing how our characters experienced their own religions.

The specific example mentioned, about the fountain of youth --- yeah, I'd market that as straight fantasy.

RichardB · May 13, 2010

When writing from a medieval character's POV I like to use a 'fantasy sense' to describe how that character reacts to technology beyond his comprehension. For instance, when a group of sailors who have navigated by dead reckoning all their lives are presented with a map of the Mediterranean, they treat it the same way fantasy characters would treat a magical scroll... the map had to be made by a god or something, for how could any human have flown high enough above the world to draw such a picture?

DMarie84 · May 19, 2010

Puma said:
Being honest, I wouldn't touch an historical novel with fantasy elements with a ten foot pole no matter how accurate, compelling, or whatever the history might be. Fantasy is not history (and I feel the same about alternative history). I also look at it as - history is adult, serious business; fantasy is child, fanciful and imaginative. They don't go hand in hand in my mind. Puma

Hmm, I don't necessarily see it that way. My one WiP is about the legendary Yuki-onna (snow woman) of Japan, and I've integrated other aspects of supernatural creatures in the story (kitsune, which are foxes that can assume human form, as well as kappa--little water demons). I've set it in a village based off the historical Edo era, using the customs and general way of life of that time.

I suppose I'm trying to make it more like a folk tale, where it's not a completely made-up fantasy world, but where the supernatural are part of the real world. These were creatures that at the time, many people truly believed in, so I'm going that one step further and making them a reality, but keeping it in a historical setting. It would probably be classified as historical fantasy though...

History_Chick · May 19, 2010

Here's a question:

Do your characters partake in magical events and then things happen or do they THINK they happen. Because if we look at the Middle Ages many people believed in a type of magic. Phillipa Gregory's The White Queen had one character who was "descended" from a witch and she and her mother used rituals to get what they wanted.

However if its historical fantasy then thats a horse of a different genre.

Bookewyrme · May 19, 2010

Personally, I think you almost have to include fantasy elements when writing about certain periods in history, or you risk being too impersonal and sounding like a history textbook, rather than a novel. This is for many of the same reasons Angeliz2k mentioned. People during various periods believed with every fiber of their beings not just in magic, but also in supernatural creatures, divine beings interacting with humans, etc. And they saw the world, and things that happened in it, through this lens, explaining occurrences which we would interpret scientifically in a totally different way. For an authentic voice when dealing with those people, I think you have to treat it like there really WAS magic/divine interaction/omens etc.

That's JMHO, and obviously doesn't hold true for all cultures/historical periods.

the_wild_bamboo · May 20, 2010

Bernard Cornwell does a great job in his Warlord Chronicles set in Dark Ages Britain that includes Arthur and Merlin. The main character (in the 1st book) falls in love with a sorceress who is an apprentice to Merlin, and Merlin is shown doing these fantastic "magic" tricks, but in fact it really isn't "magic", it's just effects. There is no real magic, just effects that some smart people know and use to make other people believe there is magic.

Personally, it's either fantasy or history. No historical fantasy or fantastical history. History is fantastic, and as a student of history historical fantasy is a big no-no in my book

MTP · May 20, 2010

Pery Machado said:
Bernard Cornwell does a great job in his Warlord Chronicles set in Dark Ages Britain that includes Arthur and Merlin. The main character (in the 1st book) falls in love with a sorceress who is an apprentice to Merlin, and Merlin is shown doing these fantastic "magic" tricks, but in fact it really isn't "magic", it's just effects. There is no real magic, just effects that some smart people know and use to make other people believe there is magic.

I haven't read The Daughters of Witching Hill but according to Julianne Douglas' review , Mary Sharratt seems to take a similar approach.

the_wild_bamboo · May 20, 2010

Of course, many fantasy novels can use history as a source of inspiration for settings or characters, but I'd get scared and a bit nervous if history novels use fantasy as a source of inspiration! There's no better source than history, in my opinion.

Haven't read The Daughters of Witching Hill either.

Just took a look at the link, sounds like a very interesting book actually. And it's right near where I used to live as well. Going on my wish list? Most definately...

ishtar'sgate · May 20, 2010

Bookewyrme said:
Personally, I think you almost have to include fantasy elements when writing about certain periods in history, or you risk being too impersonal and sounding like a history textbook, rather than a novel.

Your conclusion is interesting but puzzling. Why would fantasy elements keep a novel from sounding like a textbook? One isn't writing about history per se, one is writing about people hopefully doing interesting things, just in a different setting. Rehashing history shouldn't be the goal of the writer no matter what period they use as a backdrop. I'm curious. What historical periods are you referring to and why would do you think writing about them might come across as impersonal?

David Wisehart · May 20, 2010

My first novel was a mix of fantasy and history. I sent a couple of historical figures (Giovanni Boccaccio, William of Ockham) into Dante's Inferno. The history is true to history and the fantasy is true to Dante. So far, my readers seem to like the mix.

timewaster · May 30, 2010

Puma said:
Being honest, I wouldn't touch an historical novel with fantasy elements with a ten foot pole no matter how accurate, compelling, or whatever the history might be. Fantasy is not history (and I feel the same about alternative history). I also look at it as - history is adult, serious business; fantasy is child, fanciful and imaginative. They don't go hand in hand in my mind. Puma

I think fantasy is far from childish and can be a way of looking at the real world through a different lens besides from the very obvious fact that all historical writing is 'fantasy.'
I write historically based fantasy some of the time, but I have read historical novels that are a lot less picky about being true to the period setting. (You can probably see my bias showing like a dirty slip.) You can find good historical fantasy ( Ash: Mary Gentle is fantastic) and some dire historical fiction which is just about contemporary people with funny names in fancy dress - it makes no sense to judge the quality of a novel by some specious genre division.
On a separate note I'm not sure I'd want to read a book by someone who writes historical novels as serious, adult business - sounds dire : )

ishtar'sgate · May 31, 2010

timewaster said:
I think fantasy is far from childish and can be a way of looking at the real world through a different lens besides from the very obvious fact that all historical writing is 'fantasy.'
On a separate note I'm not sure I'd want to read a book by someone who writes historical novels as serious, adult business - sounds dire : )

I think perhaps you've misunderstood or maybe I have.

To my mind, fantasy elements have nothing to do with history. Fantasy usually involves magic, fairy tales, myths or legends and are generally involved with a basic good verses evil. People who have magic powers of some sort doing battle with an evil entity that threatens the world or something like that. Historicals involve real people with normal, believable abilities dealing with the kinds of problems faced by anyone in any age or period specific challenges like wars or plagues and the like.

I don't think there's any difference between those who write fantasies and those who write historicals. All writers take their work seriously.

timewaster · May 31, 2010

All historical writing is fantasy because however hard we try we bring the precepts of our own age to the past. We often miss out the real, but to us bizarre, motivations of people in the past for whom magic and myth were part of their real world view and for whom religion was, in the main, a potent force. Fantasy can sometimes be more truthful when it attempts to enter the belief world of other ages, though obviously mostly it isn't.

I tend to write about early British history - to write about Celtic/Early Roman Britain without mentioning their beliefs is false, to write about their beliefs is also false as no one knows what they are. All history of that period is a fantasy.

I don't know that all writers do take their work seriously in quite the same way. My aim as a novelist is to entertain. I think sitting around making things up is an essentially childish business and am rather amused when other writers make out that it is all deadly serious and 'adult'. We are all fantasists of one kind or another and pretending otherwise is delusional: writing is not a serious, adult business : )

pdr · Jun 1, 2010

Goodness me.

We are all fantasists of one kind or another and pretending otherwise is delusional: writing is not a serious, adult business.

aren't we opinionated then!

Telling stories has always been a way of passing on information, creating heroes, heroines, myths about ancestors, explaining the inexplicable, which most human behaviour is.

Entertaining it ought to be, but fantasy? Oh, no! One hopes any writer is honestly and seriously trying to make sense of the world for hirself and hir readers.

timewaster · Jun 1, 2010

pdr said:
We are all fantasists of one kind or another and pretending otherwise is delusional: writing is not a serious, adult business.

aren't we opinionated then!

Yep, but to be fair I was responding to an equally opinionated statement with which I happen to disagree.

Telling stories has always been a way of passing on information, creating heroes, heroines, myths about ancestors, explaining the inexplicable, which most human behaviour is.

Don't quite understand that sentence.

Most stories aren't explanations but explorations, games of make believe, of what if and perhaps, they are inventions, flights of fancy, things that are not literally true but which might express truths. As writers let's not lose sight of the fact that what we do is make things up and, while that is an essential element of human creativity, it doesn't do to take it or ourselves too seriously.

Entertaining it ought to be, but fantasy? Oh, no! One hopes any writer is honestly and seriously trying to make sense of the world for hirself and hir readers.

Fantasy is simply material that is imagined and so all fiction writers are fantasists by definition and the more speculative the material the more we have to use our imagination to fill in the gaps. We have to imagine the past in ways we do not have to imagine the present: historical writing has much more in common with the SF and Fantasy genres that with anything else. If as a historical fiction writer you don't realise how much what you write is fantasy, however honestly conceived, then I think you might have a few problems.

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