PublishAmerica is not a scam

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Publish America has a particular business model that does not include providing for the most expensive part of selling something, marketing. This does not make them a scam. I published with them 5 and 1/2 years ago and I've just sent them another book which they've accepted. They made a few minor errors in the text even after I corrected it but this hardly makes them a scam. I'm reading Carver and there are typos there as well. I didn't sell any books but how is that their fault? I sent them an outline for a book a few years back and they rejected it which was the right move since it wasn't ready. The idea that they would not want to promote a book when they have such a huge incentive; getting the lions share of the revenue, doesnt make sence on the face of it. Perhaps they just don't generate enough revenue to support a marketing effort. If I had enough confidence in my book being commercially viable I'd hire a publicist or hire a company that is full service which starts by the way at $12,000.00. See BookPros.

[Unimportant]

Nick M Jr, can you tell us why you didn't send your book to a commercial press that does provide for marketing at its own expense?

[Gillhoughly]

Welcome to AW Nick! :welcome:
Publish America has a particular business model that does not include providing for the most expensive part of selling something, marketing.

Indeed. It is not marketing but called distribution--which is what gets books into stores across the US an Canada. Without distribution to brick and mortar stores there are no significant book sales for the writer.

The stores want the right to return unsold books, which is significant money to any publisher. PA is unwilling to provide that to its writers, therefore, no sales.
They made a few minor errors in the text even after I corrected it but this hardly makes them a scam.

But amateurish and sloppy. Should any of my commercial publishers put errors in my books I immediately notify my editors and they are quick to remove them--at no cost to the writer. PA charges writers a 99.00 fee to correct errors they put in, giving them a decided motivation to continue the sloppiness.

I didn't sell any books but how is that their fault?

See the above comment about lack of real distribution. Having your book listed online is not distribution. People can't find it if they don't know it exists, and most people look for new reading material in bookstores. I find all my new books there, then buy them online if I can find a discount at B&N.

The idea that they would not want to promote a book when they have such a huge incentive; getting the lions share of the revenue, doesnt make sence on the face of it.

It does once you see they make the lion's share of profit selling books back to the writers. It costs them about 3.00 to produce a book. How much do they charge the writers (+ 3.99 postage for EACH one mailed) per book? Even with their frequent "discounts" it is still much higher priced than comparable titles in the stores.

Perhaps they just don't generate enough revenue to support a marketing effort.

I would love to have a look at their books. They're raking in plenty of money from their writers buying their own books, not from selling books to the general public. It's no secret that Willie Meiners, who started PA, was able to afford a helicopter, bought a huge house, and was even boasting that yachts were surprisingly affordable.

Discounting writer-bought books, it has been estimated that in TEN years they've sold only about 5000 copies of their titles to the general public. There's post on that here in the PA forum, I just don't have the time to search it out. Perhaps another member has it bookmarked?

One of my title--a trade paperback--sold about 15,000 copies last year in a 6-month period. That's ONE book, six month period, from a real publisher with real distribution.

If I had enough confidence in my book being commercially viable I'd hire a publicist or hire a company that is full service which starts by the way at $12,000.00. See BookPros.

The first rule for a commercial writer is never violate Yog's Law (http://www.sff.net/people/yog/).

For one thing, your average advance for a book by a debut author will only get a low 4-figure. Spending 12 thousand dollars to promote a book that gets only a 2000.00 advance is terrible business! Run away from BookPros--they are NOT your friend! They are one of thousands of publishing related businesses who try to get money out of writers. Start checking out the blogs of Writer Beware (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/) and learn more about the sharks that want to prey on us--if we let them!

Show Me the Money (http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html) <-- average advances for commercial romance fiction. You can extrapolate that into other genres.

New writers promote just fine without blowing 12 grand on a publicity. They do it for FREE. You can set up a website for free, have free email, free blogs, free Facebook and MySpace pages--all things that professional writers do as a matter of course.

My first book snagged me just over 2000.00 for an advance. (I had a 6-book contract). What "sold" it to the public were reviews in magazines, in papers, and the fact that it was in bookstores across the country--oh, and the writing was pretty good, too. :D It and the rest of the series paid out its advance in just a few years and began earning royalties. Had I hired a publicist, I'd have been out of pocket on that money and might never have gotten it back.

One thing you should be aware of is that the advance is how much the publisher thinks they can make on your book. PA's one-dollar advance is the (bad) joke of the whole industry and is a big red warning sign to all to run away.

I hope you'll consider our ongoing concerns about PA with an open mind.

I hope you'll be able to break away from them and sell something to a legit commercial publisher. If nothing else, then self-publishing via CreateSpace or Lulu is better for you. You have full control over your work, can set the price, and not have the shadow of PA--and their sloppy bookkeeping and bad reputation--looming over you.

PA calling itself "traditional" is another bad joke. "Traditionally" in publishing a writer had to find a rich patron to pay to get a book out. Since most PA writers do buy at least one copy of their own work, PA is keeping vanity publishing alive and well. The costs are at the back, though, not up front.

As for boosting your confidence as a writer, I invite you to check out AW's "Share Your Work" forums. There are many friendly, positive writers here who would be more than willing to help with constructive feedback. Who knows, you may be a genius and PA is just holding you back!

[narcolepticgi]

A famous quote from my friend Gomer Pyle!:snoopy:
Perhaps Nick, being on the payroll is satisfied with his royalty checks, congrats!

I just finished my last and final letter to Mr Clopper, listing 15 breaches of contract Item 11, naming several concerning the 1099-misc errors, breach of item 29 concerning sending certified registered mail which was returned unsigned for, and in doing so breach of item 1 which specifies that I must send them a CRR letter of my intentions not to extend my contract for another 7 years.

I'm puzzled by the postings about "first right of refusal" in a contract item 28. My contract, signed in Jan 2008 has no such mention of future works.:hooray:
I have downloaded the complaint form and filled it out to send the Maryland AG my complaint. I'll wait to see what they do with this latest CRR letter.

My latest e-mail from PA anouncing that I qualify to bid (yes bid) on a space at their (2) booths at the expo. I did verify that they have at least one booth #4848 and have now quieried about their claims of a second booth. I'll let you know how that turns out.

I'm curious how they plan to display the books of 200 authors, yep 200 per the e-mail I have in hand, in a 10 x 10 booth? Let alone have room for author signings and displays...duh I'd rather attempt that feat on the New York subway.

I may just endeavor to go to the expo, money is the problem...we'll see. If I go I'll see if I can get a permit to picket the PA booth, anyone care to join me? A better idea is to screen my own tee's and give them away...

That's the jest of it for a while. My Fantasy Fiction got some good news Saturday. A local DJ has agreed to read the book and possibly ask her reading club to be my beta readers. This boosted my spirits and I'm excited at the prospect. Don't worry TJ, I haven't forgotten you or Sandy!:Hug2:
This forum has been very...calming for me. My frutration with PA has leveled off. Spring is here...heck I might just walk to the expo wearing a sandwich sign and give PA a little free press.

By now I guess Willem has reach his destination; a country with no extridition (sp?)Choppers are probably out of fuel, but he has his fat Caymen account to tide him over...:evil

Sorry nick, had to twist the knife. As I stated several times, authors willing to do "all of the work" can wait for their e-mail specials and get their books for $5. For me its still a matter of principle. You don't have to worry about shoddy accounting and incorrect 1099's if you're doing all of the work; but at the same time PA is using you and your book to "con" other authors. The words "fraud", "scam", and "con" only speak to the lack of truth and the intentional deceit that is implied by the words "in brick and mortar bookstores from sea to shinning sea" and "we send, on an average of 125 press releases every day; thats 4 every minute, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week". Think what you may, this is a free country, but to me that is an implied verbal contract to promote my book. I went to all of my local libraries and not one of them has ever received anything from PA announcing the publication of new books, either electronically or in hard copy. These people firmly stated that it is through these releases that they determine what new books to review and possibly stock. They pay very little attention to flyers, calling cards and other promo literature placed by an author in the information area of the library. I donated (3) soft covers and (3) hardcover books to my local library. This is the only reason it is on the shelves; not because of PA non-promotion of my book.
:Soapbox:I'm done...

[Arkie]

[QUOTE=Nick Masesso Jr.;4862652]Publish America has a particular business model that does not include providing for the most expensive part of selling something, marketing. This does not make them a scam.

Whether PA meets the definition of a scam has been debated across these boards for near a decade. I was a PA author before you, I think, (2003), and I never felt so much scammed as cheated. Maybe that's one and the same. But I have come to know they are confidence artists first class, representing to the author something they are not: a legitimate publisher. They are a vanity press, albeit a reverse vanity, trying to pinch money out of the author on the back side, that is after the book is printed. They, like vanity presses, exist solely to sell the author his or her own book. If they can't sell books to the author, they lose and from the appearance of their site, and the diminishing number of titles they are printing weekly, they are losing.

I think you have to ask yourself why you want to tie up another book to a seven-year contract with a company that will not support you or the book. As far as errors: sure there are errors in all books, but nothing compared to some PA books I have seen, where errors appear on every page. And this alone: the acceptance of wholesale errors, and the don't-give-a-damn attitude regarding quality, defines Publish America as an amateur operation existing solely for the publication and money-making opportunity of amateur works.

If you feel comfortable dealing with these people, have at it.

[circlexranch]

Welcome To AW Nick!

I had an ebook pubbed through a reputable small press. It went through three rounds of editing, including excruciating copy editing. I got to approve every change, down to the last comma. I got to choose the cover from the galleries of three different staff artists and then ask the cover be modified to more represent my character. I had my own private forum to have one-on-one chats with the different editors and artists. When there was a dispute between myself and a copyeditor over a phrase, a staff editor settled it (in my favor). My little tale was available through all the ebook distributors, including FictionWise. I was never told to expect to be available 'in bookstores from sea to shining sea'.

It sold for $2.95 and my royalty take per copy was equal to that of a $16.95 PA book. I was treated with respect from day one and never told to watch my tone.

During the TWO year contract, my financial outlay was ZERO dollars. My financial intake was low three figures. This was for a 5K word short story ebook.

PA takes dreams and turns them into fuel for the hell-o-copter. They are beneath contempt.

This little epub shuttered after several years for non-financial reasons (health of one of the principals if I remember correctly). That was a sad day because it was a 100% positive experience and I NEVER had to make excuses for them.

[Gillhoughly]

I think you have to ask yourself why you want to tie up another book to a seven-year contract with a company that will not support you or the book.

Suppose they go out of business. (We can but hope.)

What happens to the 40,000 writers and all the books tied up in contracts? I don't see PA releasing any of them without sending out "have a chance to buy your book's rights back" e-mail. We're all very aware they don't miss a trick if they can figure a way to get money out of the writer.

One of my friends had a manuscript in limbo for years when a small press she was with went bankrupt. When she did get it back, she'd lost all heart to sell it, having moved on. It's too bad--the book was the third in a trilogy. The fans of that series never got to see how it ended!

Considering PA's shoddy bookkeeping, it would be a nightmare for the poor writers!

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Nick, PA makes $24 million a year. A year. On authors buying their own books mostly.

Miranda and Larry do have the money for marketing. They just don't give a crap about their authors to actually invest in it.

PA is a scam because they lure in authors under the false pretense that those authors will be published like someone at the many legitimate commercial publishers both big and small. They won't. And they never will with PA. The business model that's worked so well is 'sell the book back to the author'. If that's what you're happy with, then by all means enjoy. But that's not publishing at all.

[ResearchGuy]

Nick, PA makes $24 million a year. A year. On authors buying their own books mostly.. . . .
Gross or net?

--Ken

[circlexranch]

Mr. Masseso: I was going to ask why you didn't stay with Vagabondage Press until I looked at their submission page and say this zinger:

Vagabondage Press LLC is a royalty paying digital and print publisher that offers 40% of our set cover price for digital release and 8% for print for the life of copyright, to include exclusive digital, print, audio, translation and secondary/subsidary rights. (emphasis added)

For those of you who don't know, that means your entire natural life and 70 years after you meet your maker. It is essentially a complete assignment of copyright. No thank ya!

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I published with them 5 and 1/2 years ago and I've just sent them another book which they've accepted. . . . .
I hope it works out well for you.

--Ken

[Cyia]

If I had enough confidence in my book being commercially viable I'd hire a publicist or hire a company that is full service which starts by the way at $12,000.00. See BookPros.


Aside from the lack of confidence, you've got another problem. You don't "hire" a publisher. It's not a business like plumbing where you can search the yellow pages and find someone you think sounds good. There's a bar to meet and most people who write a book can't meet that bar.

I'm not saying that to discourage you, but to tell you the cold facts of it. 99% of the books pitched are NOT something that's commercially viable. Either they're poorly written, poorly executed, not appealing to the general public, or rehashes of things already out there. Just like 99% of people who play sports couldn't cut it in the pros and 99% of people who like to sing couldn't get past the line at American Idol.

Most of that same 99% are put out there by people who "know" they've got the next [insert name of best seller] on their hands.

Real, commercial, writers DON'T hand money over for the "privilege" of being published. It's not a privilege - it's a business transaction. Publishers take a risk on each title the buy the right to publish. If they don't put that initial money into the project, then they have no incentive to make the book anything more than stapled pages. If the company you trust with your book isn't willing to take a chance on it (and NOTHING about PA's model involves the publisher risking anything on the book besides that initial $1), then they're not worth your time. They certainly aren't worth the book you put that time into.

[Queen of Swords]

I published with them 5 and 1/2 years ago and I've just sent them another book which they've accepted.

I'm just curious - you mentioned that you didn't sell any books the first time. Do you expect to sell any books now?

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Nick M Jr, can you tell us why you didn't send your book to a commercial press that does provide for marketing at its own expense?

I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either. I write to dispel the beast. I'm going to write regardless. If someone wants to publish my journals for free I'm grateful. I don't consider what I do a commercial venture rather artistic expression. I hope that PA makes a killing on my "work". If they do I suspect the karma will flow back to me eventually. I have no interest in writing so someone else will enjoy it and the idea of self-promotion doesn't sit well with me either. Its seems a bit narcissistic and I just don't have the stomach for it. Further, I could no more join an writers group and share my words than I could have sex in public. Writing for me is, for lack of a better term; spiritual. I don't need any sort of reinforcement. I don't lack confidence; quite the contrary. I know what I write is good, great even. In any case; it makes me feel good and feeling good is good enough.

[CatSlave]

The only 'killing' PA will make on your work is from the copies you buy yourself.

If writing is your passion, don't waste it on the likes of PA.
Use Lulu.com instead.
Good luck.

[Queen of Swords]

I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either.

But then why publish the book and offer it for sale? You've already accepted a dollar for what you don't consider a commercial venture.

I hope that PA makes a killing on my "work".

How will PA do that without distribution and marketing to bookstores and readers?

[Bartholomew]

Further, I could no more join an writers group and share my words than I could have sex in public. Writing for me is, for lack of a better term; spiritual. I don't need any sort of reinforcement. I don't lack confidence; quite the contrary. I know what I write is good, great even. In any case; it makes me feel good and feeling good is good enough.

Why did you publish at all, then, if you have no desire to be read?

Why did you join our writer's group if you can't join one?

[kaitie]

That's my question as well. If the only reason is to do some self-expression and enjoy the art of it, then why bother to have it published? You clearly sent it to PA in order to have it published and put it out there. What would be the point of doing so if you didn't intend to have anyone read it? There's no rule that says everything written has to be published. I've written a couple of stories that will never see the light of day because I never intended them as anything but something fun to play with while I was learning my skills.

I also don't understand how you can't share your work with a writing group, but you would put it with a publisher in order to be potentially viewed by the rest of the world. I guess I'm just not getting the logic. As I see it, showing your work to a writing group might be like having sex under the covers with a couple of other people in the room, but having it published and put for sale anywhere (even by a group as inept as PA) would be much more like going on stage during the New Year's Eve event at Time Square and having sex in front of everyone there and the entire viewing audience of the US, wouldn't it?

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

I didn’t realize I’d joined a writers group. I was just expressing an opinion since I felt all the posts were skewed toward a viewpoint that I saw as unfair. I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m not emotionally involved. If they can make money selling books back to authors, where’s the crime in that was my point. I didn’t say I wouldn’t appreciate being read. I said I don’t write with readers in mind. The math on this transaction between PA and me is pretty simple. They have provided me a service I judged beneficial. I don’t have any particular motive. My books are available pretty much world wide for no fee to me and I judged that to be a good deal. I didn’t expect to make money or be on Oprah. If they are in fact making 24 million a year you’d think they’d want to put some of that into promotion but that’s their call. It’s got nothing to do with me. I’m the artist in this equation and they are the business guys. We are all free to create a business model that goes further and includes marketing if we believe that will be successful. I write; it’s got nothing to do with commerce. My writing is my gift to the world. It’s not some exercise that I would share with others in an intimate setting to be analyzed and deconstructed. I can’t read most of what I write without crying, that’s when I know its good, so I won’t be doing any readings. In Woody Allen’s film, Vicky Christina Barcelona, wherein he explores the vagaries of love, the old Spanish poet refuses to share his beautifully written sentences with the world because he says; “after thousands of years of civilization, it has not learned how to love”. If everyone took the old poets path we’d have no Shakespeare, Picasso or Altman. I write and publish, such as it is, for the same reason Dostoyevsky did; because I exist.

[Terie]

If they can make money selling books back to authors, where’s the crime in that was my point.

There's no crime it that at all. The issue is that they aren't upfront about that fact. They claim to be a 'traditional publisher' (a term, BTW, that PA made up to deceive their potential customers about their services) and that what they offer is exactly the same as what any commercial publisher offers. But the service they provide is nothing remotely like what commercial publishers do.

Most of us here would be quite happy if PA would simply be honest about what they are: a vanity press that charges its customers on the back-end instead of the front-end. Until they do that, as long as they continue their current deceptive practices, we'll be here to try to steer writers looking for a real publishing deal clear.

There are some people for whom PA's business model is perfect; it sounds like you're one of those people, and that's great for you. (I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.)

But most of their customers are looking for something else, and we're here to help educate as many of those people as we can to prevent them from being sucked into something that won't actually accomplish their goals.

[kaitie]

The crime is in the dishonesty. There are plenty of other companies that make money by selling to the authors and the author's family and friends. The difference is that those companies are up front. They aren't stating everywhere one possibly looks that they are a "traditional" commercial publisher.

There are other companies that sell almost exclusively on the web and are up front about that, without making deceptive claims about being available in bookstores from coast to coast.

There are other companies that charge fees, but that do so upfront (and others like Lulu that can be used for free). PA says all over the website that it's free and does not charge authors. Then it "edits" the books by paying a college student to spend ten minutes to run a spell-check and hit, "Change all." They invariably add more mistakes, then charge authors to fix them. They charge for book cover changes. They charge for "expedited fees." They charge for services that no commercial company would ever do and in a way that an honest self-publishing company would never do, all while claiming that they do not charge fees and are absolutely not a vanity press.

They prey on an author's dream to actually be commercially published and have their work validated. They prey on people who have been rejected and wonder if they're any good. They prey on author's dreams of seeing their work on the bookstore shelf by capturing naive souls without enough industry knowledge and telling them what they want to hear and by leading them to believe that they are being published by a legitimate small publisher.

Maybe it worked out well for you, and that's great. But there have been plenty of other people on here who have been crushed when they realize that they've been duped by a "publisher" that literally accepts anything they're given, and worse a publisher that uses creative wording to get around any sort of actual obligation and then treats them like shit if they start asking questions. Hell, they're abusive. Have you seen some of the letters people have received? Or the comments left by Infocenter on the PAMB? If not, you should check out the other threads here.

You might have made it out okay, but there are an awful lot of others who are devastated when they learn the truth. They've had their trust violated, been embarrassed by having to reveal the truth to loved ones, made to feel guilt and shame over their choice. We've seen people say they can never write again because of the emotional baggage leftover from it.

That's why we have a beef with the company. We aren't being unfair. PA is run by a couple of lying, manipulative con artists getting rich on other people's pain. If they told the truth about what they were doing we wouldn't care quite as much, but they don't. As for the 24 million...why would any of these selfish people even think of spending money on marketing when they could instead buy themselves a new private helicopter? This isn't a legitimate business. It's a deceptive lie that has managed to set itself up in the gaps of legality in order to stay out of trouble and running this long. It's sad.

As for writing groups, if you just write emotionally for yourself that's cool. I really mean that. If you do it for you and that's what matters, then I agree that you don't need one. However, the reason we use them is because we can benefit and improve based on criticism. Even the best writing can be improved, so even if what you do have now is great, there are no doubt places that could make it even better.

I think everyone here could understand the connection we feel to our writing and that it's a part of us. I've made myself cry on occasion myself while editing through a particular scene or two, so I know how it is to look at something and know that you've done something that's really pretty good.

At the same time, having my work critiqued has taken what was already good and improved it a thousand times over. I'm someone who believes in always improving and growing as a person and with my skills, so this is important to me. We've got a good group of people here, so if you ever do decide you want to have something critiqued, this is a good place to start. In my experience even placing a small snippet in the Show Your Work area has been beneficial. We also have a query letter critique area which is just invaluable, so even if you don't want your main work looked over, if you ever do decide to go for a commercial publisher, I would definitely recommend using it.

ETA: Terie, cross-posted. Gomen!

[Queen of Swords]

I didn’t realize I’d joined a writers group. I was just expressing an opinion since I felt all the posts were skewed toward a viewpoint that I saw as unfair.

Unfair towards whom? PublishAmerica? I'd be fine with them as long as they made it clear to writers that they are, in essence, a glorified printer.

It would also help if they didn't overprice books, didn't introduce errors to manuscripts and didn't berate writers wanting to get out of their contracts.

If they can make money selling books back to authors, where’s the crime in that was my point.

Just curious - what do you think a publisher should focus on: selling books to readers/stores or selling books to authors?

There's no crime in it, but that particular business model doesn't seem to accomplish much for the writers either. We tend to look out for writers here.

Some writers may not want a career or may not want commercial publication or sales or royalties, and as such, they may be happy with PA. For others, it's different.

I didn’t say I wouldn’t appreciate being read.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the difference between "sharing your words" with a writers' group and sharing them with readers.

My books are available pretty much world wide for no fee to me and I judged that to be a good deal. I didn’t expect to make money

I don't think it's a good deal to have overpriced books that lack distribution, but here we're getting into personal goals. For instance, you don't expect to make money (so it's a good thing you went with PA, which doesn't seem to have paid royalty checks this year). I do expect to make money, even though I'm also "the artist in the equation".

I've actually got three reasons for wanting money from my work:

1. So I might eventually be able to support myself from writing and won't have to work a day job unless I want to.
2. So I can have a good idea of sales. As someone here (Uncle Jim?) once said, the number of sales is proportional to the number of readers. I'd like as many people as possible to read my work.
3. Because I believe my writing is good. So why not be paid for it?

[colealpaugh]

I didn’t realize I’d joined a writers group.

Well, you definitely joined a group of writers.

The horrible reputation PA has earned comes from their sleezeball marketing, which targets people's hopes and dreams in the worst way. Their techniques are similar to the pimps who wait at bus stations in Los Angeles, approaching young girls fresh off the Iowa farm with not-so-vague promises of stardom, if only they'll submit their innocence/money.

Mr. Masesso, do you honestly believe there's a chance in Hell that Oprah's staff would open unsolicited boxes of books PA ships them? Oprah is an elite reviewer -- in as much as what her reviews do for an author -- with books having to make the journey through a gauntlet of filters and recommendations. The lowliest of interns would be charged with the duty of being sure the boxes of unedited, poorly bound trash is recognized and sent to recycling unopened. PA shipments are a burden to them.

In a nutshell: PA will publish you for free (here's some free heroine, too). Now, if you want to be famous, give us money and we'll guarantee to send your book to Hollywood, where you can be a star.

The writers you've found here don't hate the writers caught up by PA, nor do they hate Iowa farm girls (me, I love every single one as often as possible).

If having a poorly bound, typo filled book is what you're looking for, then okay. But you're still doing business with some pretty evil people -- folks who destroy dreams and prey on people's ignorance. That's the sort of Karma floating around.

And as a Buddhist, it's my opinion that PA's Karma is reflected in it's product. In my religion, Karma is the potential seed and Vipaka is the fruit arising from the grown tree -- and PA's finished products are bug infested apples by destiny of their action.

:)

[JulieB]

We're a group of writers, but we're not a crit group. (Yeah, we do have the Share Your Work area, but that's optional.)

A good crit group is hard to find. The first one I joined put me off crit groups for years. It was a terrible experience.

They're not for everyone, and I respect that. I do hope you stick around, because there is plenty of discussion about how the business of writing works. Finding a publisher, formatting a manuscript, basic promotion, and so on.

So welcome to AW, and I hope you stick around. This place is a LOT more than discussion about one publisher.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere. Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’. Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility. There are 250,000 new books published every year. Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery. If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it? Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing? I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined. Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves. I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors. I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change. I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result. In marketing their company they are selling some sizzle and some steak which is what every company does. Products and services of all kinds are hyped to the heavens; are those diet book claims “deceptive practices” as well? There was no mention of any promotion PA would do in my Contract and you’d assume that would be delineated quite prominently. Isn’t it possible that some heard what they wanted to hear? I think the rub here is that the customers are authors, artists, and when they part with their work product they are emotionally attached to it so when they feel cheated they react more from the heart than the head. Some here are hanging on the fact that they used the word “traditional” which conjured for some the idea that they would do more than they actually said they’d do. That’s a pretty flimsy argument for saying you’ve been scammed. PA is not in business for us. They are in business for them. Last time I checked that was Kosher.

[Terie]

Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility.

Recognise my name? Seen me anywhere in the media? And yet my first novel was picked up off a slush pile, and they went on to publish the entire four-book series, which has so far been translated into another language. After that, I co-ghostwrote a memoir that was published/translated in at least 10 other countries. This was all before I got my agent.

It's a bald lie that no one gets published without name recognition. It happens every single day. But vanity presses keep telling the lie.

[James D. Macdonald]

The crimes are false and misleading advertising and deceptive business practices.

And, incidentally, I don't know where the 24 million number comes from. The way I figure it, their best year they grossed 5-6 million, and are probably on a downward slide.

[Cyia]

Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere.

I see we're on to the cliche portion of the argument. Okay, then: "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

(Incidentally, there's no hate here - only the request for transparent business practices. A read of the PAMB is enough to show you that too many of the new authors who sign there don't know what they're getting into. They think they've been selected and that their books will be on shelves like any other. They think their books have been vetted for quality and that they'll be edited by a professional. They ask why PA would let lesser quality books into the market, and don't understand why they wouldn't want their best quality to be shown. In short, the author expects to be treated like a professional writer by a commercial press, which isn't what they actually signed up for.)

Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’.

No you can't. A PA book isn't a professional writing credit. It's one of those things the pros (as in agents and editors) say not to bother mentioning because it absolutely will not help you in future publication, but it can hurt you. It hurts you because you're no longer a "debut" author, which matters in some cases, but it's also on the list of "Don't tell me this" items for several agents. One in particular phrased it as one of the things that make her not want to sign someone - "tell me you published a book with PA... and mean it seriously". For those who have heard of it, PA is a joke in the industry.

Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility. There are 250,000 new books published every year.

No, that many are printed/vanity published. Most of them are not commercially or legitimately self-published. And regardless of what you believe, the fact is that plenty of 1st time, no name authors make deals every year - but they're in the top 1% of all those books submitted to editors. Most of those get small advances (but not as small as $1), but some are 6 and 7 figure -- the first time out of the gate.

Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery.

Wrong again. It's not a matter of chance; it's a matter of doing your homework and getting the interest of a real, commercial publisher who will not only market your book and get it into bookstore catalogs (with real reviews and advance "buzz"), but they'll make sure it's in stores and libraries across the country. They'll send the author multiple copies of their book for free and never ask them to buy copies to have "on hand".

If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it? Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing?

You're waxing hyperbolic again. No one wants to destroy PA. They just want them to be honest about the services they provide.

I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined.

There's a difference between illegal and wrong. They protect themselves pretty well with that "at the publisher's discretion" clause.

Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves. I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors.

They DON'T. They don't have the connections or the credibility. What they do have is a reputation that makes experienced book store managers cringe when someone mentions them as their publisher.

[Queen of Swords]

Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade

Aren't you worried about being here and making these long, long posts in defence of PA, then? You might get caught up in a crusade too.

and vendettas lead nowhere. Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do.

I've done that already, thanks. Without having to waste time, money and effort on a vanity press.

You can send them your PA book as a resume’.

That's not how real publishing works, Nick.

Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility.

That's not how real publishing works.

There are 250,000 new books published every year. Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery.

Only if each manuscript in the slush pile has exactly the same chance of being published. That's not how real publishing works.

Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing?

I doubt I'll get any response to this, but here are two questions:

1. How much time do you think people here spend in correcting misinformation about PA?

If you believe it's "24 hours per day", don't proceed to question 2.

2. What do you think people here do when they're not discussing PA?

I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality

It's the reality for a vanity press. But that's not how real publishing works.

[Sepisllib]

There will some, today, who would come to the defense of the devil himself.

I fail to understand the mind that takes hold of something evil, predatory in nature, immoral and unethical who preys on the dreams of someone else and then twists the facts around to defend them.

If I did my businesses like that, with the same predatory policies and with such intense dieregard to human feelings - I would have been run out of business long ago.

No - I prefer to do business more in line with "what would Jesus do?"

I don't know if PA is doing something illegal, however there must be some out there that would have a better method of making that determination. In my opinion, however, some way the "Public" just has to have up front information that they just may be signing with "The Devil Himself," if they put their signature on that dotted line with PA.

God Bless

Bill

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere.

Ah, the age old allegation of people here being haters because how dare we point out the piles of steaming bullshit that comes from the virtual maw of Publish America.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’.

No, you can't send a publisher your PA book as a resume because no one in the commercial publishing industry regards a PA book as a professional credit.

In fact vanity and self-published books in general are not regarded as a publishing credit unless there are some serious sales to make it worth a look. To date, no one from PA has managed to get those serious sales figures and that's despite the amount of time and money they've spent trying to generate them.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility.

Rubbish. Debuts authors are published every week by commercial publishers. They did it by writing a good book and doing their research before they went out to submission. Many of them got agents before hand.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
There are 250,000 new books published every year. Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery.

It's only a Lottery in the sense that you have to be in the game to stand a chance of being published. However, being commercially published is more a case of having written a good book and gone through the normal process rather than being distracted by a shell game run by a couple of rough-and-ready types on a street corner in a dodgy neighbourhood.

Also, a huge number of those 250,000 books are self-published or vanity published, which as you will know having gone with PA, is not that difficult to achieve.

However I wouldn't expect you to know any of that given that you state that you're not interested in the money aspects.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it?

I have no idea what this sentence means.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing?

It's not about destroying PA so much as it's about making available a resource for people so that they know what they're getting into before they sign the contract.

Sadly, too many people just sign up on the basis of a quick Google search. When they begin to have the inevitably shitty experience that many PA authors have when they realise that they're spending money on marketing and only getting pennies back, then this Forum is here to help them move on.

Nick Masesso Jr.: (BOLDING MINE)
I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined.

The bolded bit is exactly why I have a problem with PA. The whole purpose of its advertising bilge is to persuade people that they are not being paid to be published. Instead they are being "traditionally" published because their book is worth taking a chance on and they are not being required to purchase their books. It's only once they've been suckered in that they discover that the only way of getting their book out there is to buy the books themselves and sell them on - often at a loss because they're so overpriced.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves. I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors.

It's not about having the wherewithal, it's about having the inclination. There are plenty of small and respected commercial publishers out there that are doing exactly that kind of operation and making reasonable profits from selling to the public. They do it because they want to genuinely help good authors get made available to the public and make money to keep picking up more authors.

PA is an author mill that's only interested in its own profit margin, which it maintains by selling to gullable authors who don't know any better and it does it by telling them what they want to hear.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change.

Okay - so you expected them to do promotion for you before you signed the contract? So do many other PAs and why do they expect that - because that's what commercial publishers do and PA holds itself out as a commercial (read "traditional") publisher.

Either way though, given that you stated that you never intended to sell your books (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4863352&postcount=2117) , I don't think I understand why you'd have been concerned about the lack of promotion in the first place.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result.

That's your choice.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Isn’t it possible that some heard what they wanted to hear?

Did you hear what you wanted to hear then? Because it sounds that you went in with certain expectations that weren't fulfilled. You might be reconciled to it, but it doesn't make it right.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Some here are hanging on the fact that they used the word “traditional” which conjured for some the idea that they would do more than they actually said they’d do. That’s a pretty flimsy argument for saying you’ve been scammed.

Okay - so what drew you to PA rather than any other vanity/self-publishing company?

The fact that you took the trouble to go back and read your contract as to what PA was obliged to do after you discovered they weren't doing promotion suggests to me that you started off from a standpoint of feeling cheated.

Maybe reading your contract persuaded you otherwise, but anyone who is induced into a contract by representations that are unrealistic is going to feel cheated and any business that operates on that business has, at a minimum, questionable ethics.

MM

[James D. Macdonald]

It's worth noting that PA isn't a public company. There's no board of directors; there aren't any stockholders to whom they are responsible. They're maximizing their income to support Willem's helicopter, Larry's SUVs, and Miranda's race horse.

[ctripp]

>I hope that PA makes a killing on my "work".<

Nick, they will ONLY if YOU buy a lot of your books. Other wise they sell basically zero books on-line. Their business plan IS sell to authors. Since it costs them a few hundred dollars at best to get a manuscript ready to POD, all they need do is sell to you, the author, 10 of your own books and they are already in profit mode. Most of the PA authors seem to purchase 20 at a time of their own books so you can see PA's "business plan". They have never had any intention of selling to the general public. Yes, the titles show up on Amazon.com etc but you would have to know the exact title or the authors name to find them and no one other then relatives and friends would know this. PA could care less, they only put them on line to keep their authors happy and thinking they are published.
It seems though that you have gone into writing for a different reason then many of the PA authors and your not looking to make any money on it, a labour of love only and have a few copies in print, on hand for yourself and perhaps family/friends. Then it isn't costing you much and I can think of any number of other hobbies far more expensive then buying some books. Sad thing is, there are plenty of PA authors who really believe their books might actually sell on line, they might actually make some money and that PA actually WANTS their books to sell to the general public.

[ChristineR]

All I'm going to add is that hate doesn't come out of nowhere. People wouldn't hate PA if they were what you think they are. No one hates CreateSpace or Lulu. Check back with us after PA has confiscated your two-dollar royalty check because they misread a contract with their printer, or because they won't pay out until you get $25 of royalties, or because there's a discrepancy between their records and what your friends and family have told you. Check back after bookstore after bookstore has told you they won't carry PA books, and the PA book signing department loses all your e-mail.

[Gillhoughly]

My writing is my gift to the world.

And PA has stuffed that gift in a cardboard box, shoved the box under the basement stairs in a locked house, and nobody hears about it unless they happen to stumble across it by accident. Nobody gets to see what's in the box unless they pay an outrageous amount of money first.

If you want your work seen/read by the world, then post it for free on your own website or blog or even Facebook. It has a better chance than PA is giving you and will make the same amount of money. (Nothing.)

Otherwise, you are wanting to get cash from your words, same as everyone else, only PA will never deliver on that. All they want is to get cash from YOU for your words.

[ResearchGuy]

All I'm going to add is that hate doesn't come out of nowhere. People wouldn't hate PA if they were what you think they are. . . .
Seems to me that "despise" might be a more accurate word anyway. PA is not worth the effort (the psychic energy, if you will) to "hate." But its practices are despicable.

--Ken

[DreamWeaver]

Bolding mine:If you want your work seen/read by the world, then post it for free on your own website or blog or even Facebook. It has a better chance than PA is giving you and will make the same amount of money. (Nothing.)

Otherwise, you are wanting to get cash from your words, same as everyone else, only PA will never deliver on that. All they want is to get cash from YOU for your words. And the irony is, you're the last person in the world who needs to pay to read your own words.

[circlexranch]

Nick - this group of writers stopped me from signing with PA. They didn't tell me anything or yell or threaten or tell me to 'watch my tone.' However, I read their words and just said "NO" to PA.

It was a collection of short stories. Each one of those stories went on to be pubbed in different zines, where they reached readers (one zine has a forum thread for each tale and mine generated a nice buzzy discussion).

Profit to me in dollars - ZERO. Profit to me in personal satisfaction - Priceless. I also now have a handful of legit pub credits.

This was several years ago and all rights have reverted to me. For fun and self-indulgence, I may pub the collection through CreateSpace. The cost to me per copy for family and friends will be $2.15 per copy with actual shipping.

Without the folks here at AW, I may well have gotten on the PA merry-go-round and gotten seasick from the spin.

That is the value of groups like this. In a few minutes every day or so (I am on my lunchbreak right now, this is a diversion), more information is gathered and put out to new writers and if just one, like yours truly, doesn't sign with PA, then it is a win for everyone.

[brianm]

Nick Masesso Jr.:

I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA

Why? You have stated you write only for yourself, so why would you be disappointed PA does no promotion?

It is apparent you wish to project a front of an artist who creates just to create, but your numerous posts indicate this to be false. You do want to be read by others but you have built a wall of protection so as to to avoid confronting failure and rejection.

Failure and rejection are part of being an artist. They make you a better artist but only when you are willing to accept and learn from rejection and criticism.

As to why this forum exists in AW? It exists to warn serious writers with goals of commercial publication that PA is a vanity press that cannot offer a path to a professional writing career, regardless of the false and misleading information contained on PA's webpages and the PAMB.

~brianm~

[merrihiatt]

Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do.

Many of the posters here have not signed with PA and are trying to help other authors avoid the pitfall of signing with them. I happen to be one author who did sign with them and have been trying to get out of my contract for almost two years. I didn't do enough research and signed a contract that I thought I understood. PA's business practices are not clearly defined at first glance. Who would think a publisher wouldn't want books in bookstores? It seemed like a no-brainer. Surprise, surprise! I have written several books since my fiasco with PA and I consider it my responsibility to share my story with fellow writers. They can make up their own minds if they want to sign with PA or not, but the truth needs to be shared. What people do with it is up to them.

[kullervo]

I was a complete nobody whose book was bought, paid for, edited, copyedited, typeset, the cover designed (twice!), the book was printed in hardback, distributed, marketed (page 12 of the spring catalog). Heck, I was even sent on book tour. It happens all the time.

[Gillhoughly]

The only catch is that you have to write well and submit to a real publisher. :D

The doors to real commercial publishing are NOT CLOSED.

They are not elitist snobs who won't give newbies a single glance; they are actively looking for the next bestselling writer!

Of course, giving a book up to PA only hinders that process.

.

[Christine N.]

That line about no one picking up your work unless you are a name is a crock of poo.

My fifth book is coming out this fall. I'm nobody. Granted these are all small press books, but they've done all right. By that I mean I get regular checks from my publishers. Yes, plural. I have three.

I'm still working on that book that will get me an agent and a big NYC publisher, but in the meantime I'm selling books to people I've never met; books that are well-edited, have a return policy, and are very reasonably priced.

It's not the lottery. You only need one thing to win - a great book.

[Don Davidson]

I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change. I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result. In marketing their company they are selling some sizzle and some steak which is what every company does.

Good advertising emphasizes the most positive aspects of a product--the features that will make it sell--and is often silent about, or seeks to minimize, the drawbacks. But outright lying is called false advertising, which is certainly immoral and usually illegal. PA's web site is full of outright lies and deceptive statements. If you seriously doubt that, visit the PA page of my web site where I discuss some of them.

[Anon76]

If PA just mimicked AuthorHouse and others, they would not catch hell here or other places. People would know what they bought and the purchase would not be fraud.

Okay, you're kidding, right?

[Anon76]

Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere. Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’.

Ummm, no you can't. The reality is, stating PA as a publishing credit is a negative, not a positive.

Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility. There are 250,000 new books published every year.

And if you research further, many are due to companies like PA, and Authour house and it's affiliates.

Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery. If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it?

And there is the rub. PA's sole goal and only Public fiduciary responsibilty is to continue selling books only to the authors of said books. And no, if they had the chance they would not change the business practice and become a real publisher.

Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing? I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined.

But we will continually keep trying to warn others from being taken by the likes of PA. And, "naively thought they would get more than they paid for"? I thought PA was the FREE publishing option, as stated by you.

Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves.

Umm, getting books on store shelves is the JOB of the publisher. Unless you are talking strictly epublishing, and then that has it's own market standards and sell sites.

I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors. I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change. I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result. In marketing their company they are selling some sizzle and some steak which is what every company does. Products and services of all kinds are hyped to the heavens; are those diet book claims “deceptive practices” as well? There was no mention of any promotion PA would do in my Contract and you’d assume that would be delineated quite prominently. Isn’t it possible that some heard what they wanted to hear? I think the rub here is that the customers are authors, artists, and when they part with their work product they are emotionally attached to it so when they feel cheated they react more from the heart than the head. Some here are hanging on the fact that they used the word “traditional” which conjured for some the idea that they would do more than they actually said they’d do. That’s a pretty flimsy argument for saying you’ve been scammed. PA is not in business for us. They are in business for them. Last time I checked that was Kosher.

And on your end paragraph, I truly wish you the best. I hope PA is everything you want them to be. I hope your book sells like hotcakes, even if you care neither one way or the other.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Most of the responses to my Posts appear to be generated by smart and serious people. I don’t disagree with the arguments being made against PA. I just think Scam takes it too far. I agree that by using the word “Traditional” eager writers such as me thought they’d do the full gamut of services but they never agreed to do them in the contract. I heard what I wanted to hear. I Post my work on two Blogs at Amazon that carries my PA book (as does Barnes and Noble) and you can look inside the book as well though I’m 5.2 million books behind the #1 best seller just ahead I assume of a repair manual for Wearing Blenders. I didn’t say I didn’t want to be read though that is only a by-product. I said I didn’t want to joins group that would discuss my writing and offer suggestions.

Some feel and perhaps rightly so mislead. PA does not do many of the things necessary to provide the author with the exposure required to get noticed. Again, I don’t know why PA wouldn’t do more to promote their products if they thought this would result in profits since they get the lion’s share of the revenue.

I do think this chat room does not serve to make PA change course. If anyone truly wants to attack them, for those that feel they were duped by crimes of false and misleading advertising, deceptive business practices or fraudulent practices, they are free to void their contract on that basis and send their book elsewhere and dare PA to sue them. I’d write that Press Release; “Goliath Sues David”. That would be news where “David Sue Goliath” would not. You’d get Press and a hot shot lawyer looking for a high profile case for the free publicity he’d get and you might win.

I regard the Publishing of books akin to show business since you can be a dolt like Palin or Coulter and still have books on the best seller list. If I knew of a better deal than PA I’d submit to them. I have not read herein where anyone mentions or refers a traditional publishing house. The ones I looked up like Random House and others did not accept unsolicited manuscripts.

[Queen of Swords]

Most of the responses to my Posts appear to be generated by smart and serious people. I don’t disagree with the arguments being made against PA. I just think Scam takes it too far.

Thanks. :)

We believe PA is a scam since it masquerades as an actual publisher while actually being a vanity press/author mill. Many writers would not have sent their manuscripts to PA had they been aware of what it actually is.

Also, what would you call an operation which tries to make writers buy their own books in bulk by promising to donate money to relief efforts in Haiti? With no evidence, of course, that they would actually do so.

Again, I don’t know why PA wouldn’t do more to promote their products if they thought this would result in profits since they get the lion’s share of the revenue.

PA does promote its products - to the authors. The authors get weekly emails offering them the opportunity to buy their own books in bulk.

PA is not interested in promoting products to the bookstores and readers since those aren't its target market. You and its other authors are.

I do think this chat room does not serve to make PA change course.

This forum (not a chat room) isn't intended to change PA, although there have been a couple of times when PA has reacted to problems we've identified here.

It's meant to inform people about PA, so that if they were considering it as a publisher, they'd have more accurate information than what PA itself might give them.

If anyone truly wants to attack them, for those that feel they were duped by crimes of false and misleading advertising, deceptive business practices or fraudulent practices, they are free to void their contract on that basis and send their book elsewhere and dare PA to sue them.

That's actually not how it would work. The contract specifies arbitration and no publisher is going to pick up a book when PA holds the rights to it.

If I knew of a better deal than PA I’d submit to them. I have not read herein where anyone mentions or refers a traditional publishing house. The ones I looked up like Random House and others did not accept unsolicited manuscripts.

The term "traditional publishing" was coined by Larry Clopper and Willem Meiners when they founded PA, to make it appear as though they weren't actually a vanity press. Real publishers just call themselves publishers, or trade publishers, or commercial publishers.

Also, there's a sticky thread here called Alternatives to PublishAmerica (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142370) which provides some helpful links. There are other forums which discuss major publishers, small presses, epublishing and so on - we just don't go into detail about them here because that would be off-topic.

[colealpaugh]

I regard the Publishing of books akin to show business since you can be a dolt like Palin or Coulter and still have books on the best seller list.

Yes, and Mein Kampf and Keith Olbermann's left-wing attack books are also strong sellers. In many instances, non-fiction is all about show business, genocide, and Miley Cyrus. Are you just realizing that?

As an aside, one of Andy Warhol's Campbell Soup can paintings sold for $11 million in 2006, and yet I am not offended in the least.

There's a difference between voiding and violating a contract. Imagine sending a MS to a small commercial publisher and having it accepted. You'll have to lie to them about your contract with PA, of course, since nobody would knowingly expose their company to litigation. Once she found out, Miranda would be sure to humiliate the writer and send a volley of threatening letters to the publisher, demanding absurd restitution for lost earnings (funny to consider the lost earnings would only come from the author, anyway). There would probably be no lawsuit. Your career would be ruined, though, because you'd be blamed for bringing the wrath of PA on some unsuspecting publishing house.

You seem like a thoughtful, articulate man. It makes me curious to know why you support a company that has hurt so many people. Perhaps there's a certain satisfaction in being in such a small minority of people who don't feel screwed by a company who has screwed so many people. I don't think that would be a very comfortable position for an empathetic person.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

You could simply provide the new publisher with a "Hold Harmless" agreement.

[Terie]

You could simply provide the new publisher with a "Hold Harmless" agreement.

Nick, seriously, it DOES NOT work this way. No publisher is going to publish a book to which they cannot buy the rights. PA would sue them, and PA would win.

It's very much the same as selling a house. Do you think you could sell a house you couldn't prove was owned by you simply by offering the purchaser a 'hold harmless' agreement?

I have not read herein where anyone mentions or refers a traditional publishing house.

The reason is that the only publishers who apply the word 'traditional' to themselves are vanity presses. However, assuming you acutally meant 'commercial publishers', my first book was picked up off the slush pile at Llewellyn Worldwide (http://www.llewellyn.com/) and published by Flux (http://www.fluxnow.com/), Llewellyn's YA imprint. The memoir I co-ghostwrote was picked up off the slush pile by a UK agent, who signed the subject and sold the book to John Murray (http://www.johnmurray.co.uk/), which is owned by Hachette (http://www.hachette.co.uk/).

This is just one wee example of a complete nobody's publishing record.

You might want to check out those sites I linked to and see just how different they are from PA's site. Most tellingly, they're targeted to readers, not writers.

[kaitie]

You could simply provide the new publisher with a "Hold Harmless" agreement.

Terie is completely right that this would never work. For as long as PA holds the rights, the book is completely off-limits. No publisher would ever consider it. In fact, it would be very difficult to send the same manuscript without major revisions to any commercial publisher because, as I think someone mentioned before, when a book has already been published once, new publishers will want to see the sales numbers on it to prove that it might be worth picking up. If a book only sold 75 copies (the average number self-published books sell), they aren't going to consider it. It would have to be selling thousands of copies. That's true even if the book was amazing. So the same book that is no longer owned by PA is going to be a tough sell in the first place. But seriously, no publisher will ever print something knowing someone else has the rights. And if anyone ever did it without telling them, that would be a career killer right there. No other publisher would want to work with an author so dishonest who no doubt got someone sued.

There is a reason that we tend to tell authors that, as much as it hurts to hear, their PA book is dead. It's true. Short of completely rewriting the story, changing the titles, etc. it has no hope. And that's even if PA let it off the hook. That's why we tell people that the best thing they can do is write a new, better book, and approach real publishers instead and try to do it the same hard-road way the rest of us do.

And that's another thing about PA: they hate letting people out of their contracts. Some people get off easy, but a lot of people on here are still suffering through trying to get their rights back. In fact, the company has been known to patrol these boards and intentionally refuse to give rights back for people who post here out of sheer meanness. Seriously. You might think I'm exaggerating and taking this out of context, but it's the truth. The people in charge really do have that very second-grade mentality.

As for saying that they broke contract and trying to get it voided as a result...well, let's just say they're careful. You mentioned believing you would get full services, but said that when you looked it wasn't in the contract. Well, the problem is those things are in the contract, but always "at the publisher's discretion." Who on earth would think, come time to sign said contract, that this means "We don't do it at all"? Really? Why would anyone think that? The reason they put things like marketing and book signings and publicity, etc. in the contract is because it makes a person who knows this is what to expect believe that's what they're going to receive. No one ever looks at the discretion clause and says, "Maybe that means this is really all a scam and they're lying and won't do any of it." Thing is, they've got that clause in there to make themselves legally unaccountable.

They also state (if I remember correctly) that if you do wish to take them to court for breach of contract, you have to travel to Maryland and do it there. Many authors don't have the money for a lawyer, much less to fly to Maryland and stay for however long it takes. There's one person on here who actually did take them to court and won, if I remember right, but PA has set themselves up so well that they know the chances of an author really taking them to court are incredibly slim.

So even getting out of the contract is very difficult for many people.

The best chance an author has for success after dealing with PA is to come to a place like this where they can improve their skills and learn about how the industry really works, and then try again with a new book and pretend the PA situation never happened to them. And it's happened to people on here. We've got a few success stories.

As for recommending a real publisher...there are so many it would be impossible to do. I'd recommend an agent first anyway, and there are hundreds all looking for their own things. Different publishers have different requirements, and different authors have different wants and needs. I, for instance, would rather be published in print by a large publisher than by an ebook or small publisher. That's just me. I'd like to try to get an agent and aim for Random House, you know? Will it be easy? No chance in hell haha. Will I ever make it? Goodness knows. ;) Other people prefer small presses or ebooks in general. Some people write niche books that are suitable for particular presses.

That's part of the author's job when we research this sort of thing. We have to decide what we want from our work and our career (just this one book, or career author? Big or small? Agent or on agent?), then we have to do our research and look for agents or publishers according to what genre we write and what we hope to accomplish. So it's really impossible to offer suggestions because there are so many options out there.

The Bewares and Background check area is filled with threads about agents and publishers, though, and that's the best place to start finding information. You could see whether one was good or bad, recommended or not, etc. In my mind, that entire forum is filled with suggestions and information about alternatives to PA. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay, you're kidding, right?

No, don't think he's kidding.

You don't see an AuthorHouse sub-forum here, do you?

Now, AuthorHouse (and all its various branches and names and such) are an out-and-out vanity press, and we're not shy about saying so, but there isn't the disgust with them that you see with PA.

And with AuthorHouse it's pretty straightforward: They post their prices. With PA you find out later what it all costs.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

[Cyia]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

Because you can't take your toys and go home. The book's been officially "published", and while it doesn't count as a publishing credit, it DOES count as being published. Unless you sell a ton of copies (4-figure sales), another publisher won't waste their time or money.

And, as has been mentioned here many times, it's not unusual for a contract to be held out of spite.

[Queen of Swords]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere?

Nick, have you read the threads here where people who have been asking nicely for months post about their experiences?

I strongly suggest you do so.

[DreamWeaver]

Again, I don’t know why PA wouldn’t do more to promote their products if they thought this would result in profits since they get the lion’s share of the revenue. Because PA actually does know enough about real publishing to know there is *no* viable revenue stream available in trying to sell unedited slush to the general reading public. They simply won't buy it in any significant quantities.

The few well-edited, all-ready-for-publication MSS that arrive in PA's inbox are mixed in with so many not-ready-for-print books that they get lost in the noise.

[Terie]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

When asked nicely, PA refuses. If you'd read through the sub-forum here, you'd see plenty of examples of the abuse they dish out to people who dare ask for their rights back.

My question to you is: Why are you spending so much time defending a company about whose behaviour you obviously haven't a clue? The evidence is all over this sub-forum and all over the web. Don Davidson referred you to his website with scans of correspondence he's received from PA. Did you go look at it? Have you read this thread? Have you read any of the other PA threads? There are many posts just in this thread with PA's repsonse to people who asked nicely for their rights back.

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I heard what I wanted to hear.

Because you were told what you wanted to hear by PA. That's what makes them a scam.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Again, I don’t know why PA wouldn’t do more to promote their products if they thought this would result in profits since they get the lion’s share of the revenue.

Except that promotion and distribution and in-store placement all take time, effort, money and industry expertise - none of which PA has or is prepared to invest in and why should they when they continue to make money from a business strategy that involves selling books back to authors and placing the onus on them to sell books? It reduces your labour costs and marketing budget.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I do think this chat room does not serve to make PA change course.

It's not about making PA change its business so much as it's about giving people the chance to find out what the company's really about before signing away their work.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
for those that feel they were duped by crimes of false and misleading advertising, deceptive business practices or fraudulent practices, they are free to void their contract on that basis and send their book elsewhere and dare PA to sue them. I’d write that Press Release; “Goliath Sues David”. That would be news where “David Sue Goliath” would not. You’d get Press and a hot shot lawyer looking for a high profile case for the free publicity he’d get and you might win.

No you wouldn't. Read your contract. Once signed, your publishing rights can only be returned and your contract terminated with the consent of PA. PA are not going to return those rights because you ask them to. In fact if you take the time and trouble to read through this Forum, then you'll find the abusive responses that people get when they do ask for a termination and reversion of rights.

In the instances where PA are prepared to offer termination and the return of rights they want a money payment up front, usually around $300.

As for that "hot shot lawyer" you talk about - he's going to read your contract with PA, see that it's considered a business relationship, talk to you about the facts of your case, see the arbitration wording commiting you to head to Maryland if you want out, and look for another client.

PA's contract is so vaguely worded that they usually win - especially in arbitration. Even authors with strong cases for non-payment of royalties earned find themselves facing an uphill struggle. Sadly that does not mean that people haven't been scammed - they've just been scammed into a legally binding contract. It's like Timeshare.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I regard the Publishing of books akin to show business since you can be a dolt like Palin or Coulter and still have books on the best seller list.

Yes you can. Equally you can be a complete unknown who's bothered to research good agents, signing with one on the basis of a well written book and getting a contract with a good advance with a good commercial publisher who puts a lot of effort into marketing, distributing and promoting it.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
If I knew of a better deal than PA I’d submit to them. I have not read herein where anyone mentions or refers a traditional publishing house. The ones I looked up like Random House and others did not accept unsolicited manuscripts.

If you want to self-publish, there's Lulu. If you want an advance, then find an agent. There are books and websites and resources out there to help you do that. All you've got to do is look.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
You could simply provide the new publisher with a "Hold Harmless" agreement.

No you couldn't for the simple reason that most individual authors are not going to have the money to back that agreement up. If PA chose to sue a publisher to whom an author had signed with, the suit could go into the millions. Have you got that kind of money to reimburse a publisher, because most don't.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

Again, do your research.

People have asked nicely - they've documented their claim and they've been professional. They get back abuse - rancid personal remarks and demands for apologies and refusals to terminate.

PA can and has demanded $300 to terminate contracts before. That could go higher. Given that they're running a POD operation which basically involves someone slapping cover art onto a PDF document, it may be open to interpretation that their costs do not run anywhere near that high.

MM

[brianm]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I regard the Publishing of books akin to show business since you can be a dolt like Palin or Coulter and still have books on the best seller list.

You can also be an unknown dolt and land yourself a realty TV show. Why? Because it sells and that is exactly what commercial publishers are looking for - books that they can sell to the public and they don't care if you are an unknown dolt or a celebrity dolt. They only care that they can sell the product to the public because that is how they make their money.

PA only cares that they can sell their books back to their authors because that is how a vanity press makes its money.

Now ask yourself this question. Why is it that in all of these years PA has never sued AW to shut down this forum with its hundreds of threads and tens of thousands of posts?

Because they know the fact based information provided in this forum is accurate and that they would lose in court. Worse yet, they would be exposed on record for what they are - a vanity press posing as a commercial publisher.

~brianm~

[xXFireSpiritXx]

I mean there is some shred of hope to respond to some comments by Kaitie. I did receive my rights back within a year of being trapped by them I shaved around 10k words off the novel, took out some plot lines and motivations, and then changed the title.

I have some pubs considering it now so there is some light. But I do know I am one of the rare ones...

Will I be publishing under a pen name? Oh, yes. At least with this book and its sequels.

[Jersey Chick]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? Because nice most likely will result in a tone letter and a demand for an apology. Besides, you can't just get your book back and go elsewhere. It doesn't work that way.


If nothing happened nothing happened. But something did happen. A book can't be unpublished. Yeesh.

If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? They do seem to get off on torturing those who have the nerve to ask for their rights back. They send nasty, demeaning letters, make threats, fun stuff like that.

The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you. Perhaps the nameless, faceless drones who slave under the Stooges don't. And none of them last very long. But the Stooges themselves? Please... they seem to take a very perverse pleasure in abusing writers. They are rotten humans. Rotten. Go through the subforums and read the posts by people who've received tone letters to their polite (and yes, nice) requests to be released from their contracts. Then come back and suggest that, really, the Stooges are just terribly misunderstood.

[Terie]

I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

Alternatively, a bit of research might surprise you. Such as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Prather

No horns, perhaps, but a criminal record for harassment.

[narcolepticgi]

FYI:D
Pasting of my letter being sent Monday.

GREETINGS;
PER YOUR CONTRACT ITEM 1., SIGNED BY MS JANICE CADLE AND MR WILLEM MEINERS ON OR ABOUT JAN. 14TH, 2008 I AM NOTIFYING YOU OF MY DECISION NOT TO RENEW MY CONTRACT FOR ANY ADDITIONAL PERIOD OF TIME WHAT SO EVER.
FURTHERMORE, I AM REQUESTING THAT THE CONTRACT BE TERMINATED WITHOUT PREDJUDICE AND MY PUBLISHING RIGHTS BE RETURNED TO ME AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I HAVE NOTED THE FOLLOWING CONTRACT BREACHES WHICH HAVE OCCURRED SINCE MY BOOK ISBN 1060563-294-5 WAS PUBLISHED AND MADE AVAILABLE TO THE BUYING PUBLIC:
(A) PER ITEM 12: 1-60563-294-5 WENT INTO PRINT 0N JUNE 27,2008. NO ROYALTY STATEMENT WAS ISSUED FOR THE AUGUST ROYALTY PERIOD BETWEEN FEB. 2008 AND JULY 2008.
(B) PER ITEM 12: NO 1099-MISC WAS ISSUED PERTAINING TO THE MONIES EARNED FOR TAX YEAR 2008, NAMELY THE $1 ADVANCE.
(C) PER ITEM 11: YOUR E-MAIL OF JUNE 27, 2008 SET THE RETAIL PRICE OF MY BOOK AT $19.95. ON THE ROYALTY STATEMENT DATED FEB. 28, 2009 THE U.S. RETAIL PRICE IS NOTED AS $24.95.
(D) PER ITEM 11: PER YOUR E-MAIL OFFER DATED JUNE 9, 2009 I ORDERED (9) COPIES OF THE HARDCOVER ISBN 1-4489-0452-8, THE SOFT COVER WAS STILL AT $24.95 SO THE HARDCOVER WAS SET AT THAT PRICE. THE ORDER RECEIPT #323514 NOTES THE SOFT COVER ISBN 1-60563-294-5.
(E) PER ITEM 11: ON THE ROYALTY STATEMENT DATED AUG 28, 2009 STATES THAT NO COPIES OF THE HARDCOVER ISBN 978448904525 HAD BEEN SOLD. THE RETAIL PRICE IS NOTED AS $29.95.
(F) PER ITEM 11: A ROYALTY CHECK WAS RECEIVED FOR $17.97 DATED AUG. 31, 2009 #15266.
(1) THE ACCOUNTING STUB ATTACHED TO THIS CHECK STATES THE ISBN AS 1-60563-294-5.
(2) THE QUANTITY FOR WHICH ROYALTIES WERE DUE IS NOTED AS (9) WITH $17.96 BEING THE ROYALTY AMOUNT. NO SOFT COVERS WERE SOLD DURING THIS PERIOD.
(3) I IMMEDIATELY NOTIFIED SUPPORT@ CONCERNING THE MISTAKE; ASKING ABOUT THE PROMISED ROYALTIES ON MY HARDCOVER PURCHASE PER THE E-MAIL SOLICITATION.
(4) A CHECK #3502 FOR $17.96, SIGNED BY MR CLOPPER DATED DEC. 18, 2009 ARRIVED; THE ENVELOPE WAS STAMPED BY THE POST OFFICE DEC. 22, 2009. THE CHECK ACCOUNTING LISTS “NO ISBN #”, NO “QUANTITY”, ABSOLUTELY NO ACCOUNTING INFORMATION WHAT SO EVER. NO LETTER OF EXPLANATION WAS INCLUDED IN THE ENVELOPE.
(G) PER ITEM 31. “…AN ADVANCE DOLLAR AMOUNT OF $1 (ONE), WHICH WILL BE CHARGED AGAINST ROYALTIES DUE TO THE AUTHOR.” I HAVE RECEIVED (3) ROYALTY CHECKS AND THIS HAS NOT BEEN DEDUCTED.
(H) PER ITEM 11: A 1099-MISC SHOWING $17.96 DOES NOT REFLECT THE $2.80 RECEIVED IN FEB, NOR THE ADDITIONAL $17.96 RECEIVED IN DEC. THESE IN-ACCURACIES HAVE NOT YET BEEN SENT TO THE IRS.

ITEM 11. THE PUBLISHER AGREES TO KEEP AND MAINTAIN TRUE AND ACCURATE RECORDS RELATING TO THE DISTRIBUTION OF COPIES OF THE SAID LITERARY WORK, INCLUDING REPORTS OF SALES AND COLLECTIONS THEREFROM.
ITEM 24. WHEN IN THE JUDGEMENT OF THE PUBLISHER, THE PUBLIC DEMAND FOR THE WORK IS NO LONGER SUFFICIENT TO WARRANT ITS CONTINUED MANUFACTURE, THE PUBLISHER MAY DISCONTINUE FURTHER MANUFACTURE…

***********************************
As you can readily see PA clearly flaunts their business stratigies in every contract.
When these items were presented to the Maryland BBB PA answered calling me a liar and that they would not mediate as long as I continued to post on my websites "disparaging comments about PA"
My contracct is definately being held "out of spite".
This letter will be sent Monday, Certified Return Receipt.
As someone mentioned if they will not open and forward "cancellation notices" then that is clearly a breach of contract.
As for the address, they have never sent me a notice that their mailing address has changed, so I will attempt at the P.O. Box 151 per the header on my contract.
As for the expo, I did forward the e-mail cconcerning their endeavors to auction off a seat at their booth. Each 8 x 10 booth gets (4) publisher passes and (1) autograph pass. PA has reserved (2) booths, #4848 and #4850, thats 2x $3500 or $7000.Seems our royalty checks have given them a small nest egg to spend on their self-promotion
My latest e-mail promo says "buy 5, get 25" and free shipping on the free 20 books. Problem here is that they have jacked the $1.99 per book (was $1.99 last time I went to their bookstore and checked) to $3.99 per. Minimum order is 5 copies.

So Nick, have the twice weekly e-mail solicitations started? Have you got the one where they tell you that you can buy galley copies (without covers). When I responded to that one they told me my book was not available for the galley promotion...duh...then why make the offer.

Gotta' go...this old Vet needs to take a nap. Seriously Nick, I wish also that PA would wake up, start a PA only bookstore chain and sell our books there. PA could make "another" fortune by doing so, but they have declined to do that also. I even volunteered to actively supporrt one here in kentucky. All they had to do was rent and insure the space and supply me with the books. OMG:Hug2:what a great way to do business!

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Considering the fact that Miranda's known for screaming at employees, maybe horns isn't too far off the mark...

[Gillhoughly]

I regard the Publishing of books akin to show business since you can be a dolt like Palin or Coulter and still have books on the best seller list. Neither of them are such dolts as to refuse a publisher's advance money, though. Publishers--real ones--know there is a market for books by the (in)famous. But many more books are out there by the non-famous.

Those two have books in the same section as James Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson, Errol Flynn's My Wicked, Wicked Ways and Alan Young (http://www.mister-ed.tv/)'s bio of Mister Ed (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0979740401/sconline-20), which I found to be genuinely charming and funny. Check a store's bio section. How many of the names there are instantly familiar to you? Even the famous have trouble being famous in such a huge crowd.

Your view of publishing is yet too narrow. Thousands of commercial titles written by people you've never heard of are released every year. Go to a bookstore and write down the names you've heard of vs the ones you've not; the latter list will fill up the page before you've finished that first latte.
If I knew of a better deal than PA I’d submit to them.

Again--go to a bookstore. Find works similar to yours. Look up their publisher's submission guidelines and follow them to the letter.
Look up the writers of those books, ask if they might recommend an agent. Follow their submission guidelines to the letter.
WRITE WELL. That's the only real catch. PA prints the slush pile. Real publishers do not.


Those three things are what got ME published back in the day. I also used Writer's Market, the library's whole danged 808 section, asked other writers for advice, got feedback, re-wrote the book several times, and shopped it for two years. It took WORK to land that first contract--but totally worth it. Oh, yeah--my first book was picked up from the slush pile. I didn't get an agent until after my fourth book was in print.

If you don't want to bother with that, take your writing to Lulu. You'll have better sales and no weekly "buy copies to have on hand" mails from PA. Seriously, you are better off self-publishing through Lulu than being seen as a victim of PA's lies.

And heck, even horrible books by mediocre hacks are published and make a chunk of change. It's not fair but true. The only diff is that hack sent work in to a real commercial house, not PA.

I have not read herein where anyone mentions or refers a traditional publishing house. The ones I looked up like Random House and others did not accept unsolicited manuscripts.See the bulleted list above on how to remedy that.

Many of us here are professionally published with a number of different commercial houses. Look up James Macdonald, Victoria Strauss, and/or A.C. Crispin. Look up the titles people have in their signatures.

I have sold more than 20 commercial titles to 4-5 different houses, but prefer to remain anonymous, as I get more done here without my ego in the way. I don't multi-task well. I can help writers or pimp a title, and here on AW I prefer to help writers.

The moderators here know who I am and if I get out of line they can kick me in the slats and put me on universal ignore.

they are free to void their contract on that basis and send their book elsewhere and dare PA to sue them.Um, no, they can't. That contract IS a legally binding document; there are clauses in it that hinder exactly that. And first the writers have to make contact with PA. There are tons of posts by frustrated PA writers quoted here complaining that PA is not replying to their emails, answering the phone, and returning unread their snail-mail. It's hard to start the process unless Larry opens the letter.

They cannot resell a book that's been previously published. Commercial houses want NEW stuff.

That example about trying to sell something that's legally owned by a third party is exactly right. I can't resell a car I just drove off the lot unless I can persuade the buyer to take over the note. It's easier to do THAT than get a publisher to do a reprint!

I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.Here's an enlightening bio about Miranda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Prather), her life and weird actions before she was packed home to Momma (narrowly missing jail time) and found a job with PA. She is NOT firing on all thrusters. PA is perfect work for such a wingnut. That, or a bill collection agency. She's the one we call the Infomonster. She constantly checks the PA message boards, deleting ALL posts that even remotely criticize or question PA.

That's why the PA quotes thread exists. Many of those complaints are re-posted here on AW so they are not lost. We can hope those writers will come here and see we're bashing PA, not them.

She and Clopper are responsible for the abusive and thoroughly unprofessional replies they send to PA writers.

Catslave used to work for PA and can attest to the hostile work environment and how business is run there. A couple other ex-employees have also done some whistle-blowing (http://absolutewrite.com/forums//showthread.php?t=153754), giving us a look inside.

[Don Davidson]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

Nick, you do not seem to understand the way PA truly works. They are not a professional business offering a quality product and trying to keep customers happy. The normal expectations for businesses simply do not apply. The Maryland BBB has given them a rating of "F." (There is a link to that on my web site.)

As for asking nicely to be released from the contract, here's my experience. Within a couple of weeks after signing my contract, I began to be suspicious of PA and did a Google search for "PublishAmerica scam." Based on what I found there, I sent PA an email expressing my concerns, telling them that I had no intention of buying my own book or allowing them to solicit my friends and family members, and suggesting that we cancel the contract if that is indeed how they operate. The next day (8/14/2007) they sent me an email that completely ignored the concerns I had raised, but which stated:

"Thank you for taking the time to respond to our message; however, you would do well to carefully consider the source of your information before requesting termination of the contract. We entered into the contract in good faith and expected the same of you. We will not be terminating the contract. If you refuse to submit the materials we need to publish the book, you will be in breach of contract, and we will review all legal remedy [sic] which may be available to us."

On May 28, 2008, after months of learning first-hand how PA really operates, and that the concerns I had read on the internet were all too true, I again suggested we terminate the contract. PA sent me an immediate response (dated 5/28/2008), refusing to terminate the contract unless I would pay them $300.00. I declined, more out of principle than monetary concerns.

Since then PA has managed to sell exactly two copies of my book, and I consider it a miracle that they sold that many, because I have told none of my friends and family that the book even exists. It is a source of shame for me that I fell for PA's line, so I have no intention of publicizing the fact.

Now you can read this and more on my web site, if you are so inclined. But you would be well advised to educate yourself before you defend PA any further. You appear to be saying a great deal out of ignorance, and that is what PA preys on.

[Anon76]

No, don't think he's kidding.

I didn't think so either, but I had hopes.

You don't see an AuthorHouse sub-forum here, do you?

In case that was tongue-in-cheek and others didn't get it, I'll add this link: http://tinyurl.com/y333gpc

I say "in case" because I don't know you well enough to automatically assume you were jesting. (Also, I forgot to name the tiny url, DOH, but it links to another AW sub-forum.)

Now, AuthorHouse (and all its various branches and names and such) are an out-and-out vanity press, and we're not shy about saying so, but there isn't the disgust with them that you see with PA.

True.

And with AuthorHouse it's pretty straightforward: They post their prices. With PA you find out later what it all costs.

Yeah, the main concern with them - other than exhorbitant pricing for sub-standard work - is how they tout brick and mortar access.

[merrihiatt]

Why not just ask nicely to be released from your contract and get your book back and pretend it never happened and go elsewhere? If nothing happened nothing happened. If you tell PA you aren't happy with the results of the agreement, that you'd like to give another publisher a chance or even that you feel mislead, and you won't be buying any books, what incentive do they have to keep you in bondage? The most they could reasonably ask you for are the cost they have incurred thus far which I've read herein are minimal. I doubt the PA people have horns. They might surprise you.

Nick, you are making an assumption which is normal and natural, that PA is made up of rational human beings who want to have a mutually respectful and profitable relationship. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have made numerous (as in, I've lost count at this point, my guess is around 20-24) requests in the last two years to have my rights returned to me. I do not send snarky or mean e-mails. Most of my e-mails went unanswered. They weren't even acknowledged. A few weeks ago, I did finally receive an answer and that answer was no. Again.

At this point, I don't expect PA to return my rights, but I'm still going to continue asking. Worst case scenario, in five years (after I send them notice by certified and return receipt requested mail) that I do not want my contract to automatically renew for another seven years, I will sever all ties with PA.

PA is doing this for spite, because I post on this message board. I have sold less than ten books in two years and I have purchased 75 books (I made only one purchase and that was at the very beginning before I realized PA's business model was to sell books to their authors). There is no reason for them to keep me under contract any further. They choose to do so because they can.

[James D. Macdonald]

You don't see an AuthorHouse sub-forum here, do you?

In case that was tongue-in-cheek and others didn't get it, I'll add this link: http://tinyurl.com/y333gpc

That's a thread, not a sub-forum.

There are two sub-forums under B&BC: PA, and Writers' Literary Agency.

The reason those two have sub-forums is that we have so many threads about the different aspects of their scams.

[tlblack]

Nick, I purchased 50 copies of my PA book and if you look at my signature picture, you will see how that turned out. When PA released me from my contract, I was less than nice about my complaints and provable issues with non-payment of royalties, as well as many other problems. Where Merri has been nice and tried for two years to get PA to release her from her contract, it took me all of ten days from the day I snail mailed the registered, return receipt letter, to receive my contract release. That was in November of '06. In March of this year, I received two royalty statements for the trade paperback version of my book. Had my book really been out of their current book listings, I wouldn't have received any statements. In the time I was under contract with PA, I was paid for 14 copies on royalty statements and received two signed checks in the amount of $0.00. *yes zero* I also have proof that a lot more than 14 copies sold. I do have the rights to my book back, and that was a happy day for me.

There are many forums here at AW where you can ask questions, learn about agents and publisher's and even share any work for input. I hope you won't resign yourself to only reading the PA threads. Welcome to AW!

[Anon76]

That's a thread, not a sub-forum.

There are two sub-forums under B&BC: PA, and Writers' Literary Agency.

The reason those two have sub-forums is that we have so many threads about the different aspects of their scams.

Ah, gotcha. I'm still a newb to the differents aspects of the site. Learn something new every day.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

PA has let some opt out for $300.00 and that seems very reasonable to me. If they have given that deal to some they'd probably give it to others but perhaps they feel stung by those who have made a mission of slamming them to future authors. I realized I'm in the minority here but while I acknowledge that they should modify the word "traditional" or otherwise explain more clearly what they "don't do" since clearly many or some feel mislead by this one word, I still consider them an honest company that did a wonderful job on my book and in my view they have done everything they promised me. However, if I felt otherwise like many or all of you here I wouldn't care what the consequences were I'd fight them, but head on, not from the shadows and at a distance. I wouldn't let anyone stand on me. Once I make a deal I stick to it unless the other guy breaks it and I just don't see where they have done so. Most of you have discussed this matter with me politely and intelligently and I understand you feel crushed but since I am out of advice I'll withdraw from the discussion. Thanks for all the positive advice and Best Wishes.

[kaitie]

Really...have you read the other threads? Or the comments on the PAMB? Or how about the fact that they were making special offers to authors that were literally impossible to fulfill, such as sending free copies to soldiers for Christmas when it was already well past the deadline for sending things to reach the troops, disregarding the fact that the shipments would be discarded without a specific soldier's name on them anyway. Or what about the promises to ship to Oprah when she clearly states that she doesn't accept unsolicited manuscripts? How is that honest?

Or have you been to the message boards? I dare you to ask a question about something you've heard that's negative and see what happens. Or even better, to ask a question about why they don't more actively promote, as you've actively wondered on here why they don't choose to do more to make more money. See what happens. We've got an entire thread (two, actually) dedicated to documenting all of the negative comments/questions, etc. and their responses. Most people are deleted, some are banned. Some just have snarky comments posted by Infocenter. How is it honest to have a public forum in which you delete every comment that's made which can paint your company in a negative light?

What about the people who order books that never arrive, but have their credit cards charged? Is that honest? Or claiming that at no point does the author pay fees and then hitting the author with editing fees to fix changes that they put in?

It's not just the one word that makes me feel like they're misleading. It's their entire business practice. The one thing they aren't is honest. Even in your statement you said that they didn't do everything you had expected because you had thought you would receive more promotion. Now, it appears to me that rather than realize they were lying to you, you've instead gone the opposite direction and decided you must have been at fault for not recognizing the shifty wording, but trust me, they were being dishonest with you.

As for the $300 dollars (some people are told if they buy 50 books they can get out), that's just pure sleaze. Many people will argue against any publisher having a kill fee in the contract. I've seen it debated before. Most of the time if someone does want a fee, it's to pay for editing or book covers that were not recovered, and even then it's iffy. We know for a fact (from people who worked there) that covers are made by a college student with no training in ten minutes. Basically the same for the "editing." Many authors already paid fees for this as well in the first place.

The reason they want a fee is because it's their way of milking the money out of the author even if the author is refusing to buy books. The only place they get money is from the author (or sometimes the author's friends and families). Every single normal commercial publisher will drop an author for not having sales. If you had ten sales in a year, they would be more than happy to drop the contract and pull the book out of print because it isn't selling. Real publishers want to make money, and if they aren't making money on it they'll let it go. PA essentially holds contracts hostage in order to cheat the author out of the money they're trying to avoid having to spend. They've fixed it so that even when they lose, they win.

You might have had a satisfactory experience--and I use the word "Satisfactory" because you clearly were not 100% okay with it and wanted more promotion--but that does not change the fact that the company makes even the sleaziest used car salesman look like an angel, or the fact that the entire foundation of it has been built on dishonesty.

Please...read the other threads here. I'm glad things went okay for you, but this is not a place you really want to be defending.

I also wanted to say that I fight the only ways I can. Whenever they have new "specials" coming out, I'm one of the ones writing to whoever I can to see if I can get the person to disavow any connection with PA and hopefully help people see through it. I've written letters, and continue to write letters, to newspapers, senators, anyone I think might possibly be able to do something because I think if there are enough voices out there speaking out it might really make a difference.

I might just be a "shadow," but I'm not one of their victims so this is the best I can do. And if my participation in this thread can help even one person see PA for what they are and get out before it's too late, I consider that a victory in and of itself.

[Queen of Swords]

...I still consider them an honest company that did a wonderful job on my book and in my view they have done everything they promised me.

Given that they promised you very little in the contract, I'm not surprised that they were able to do very little. No editing, no distribution, no promotion, etc.

And the only way someone could consider PA an honest company is to deliberately avoid reading of the hundreds or maybe thousands of times they have lied to and deceived writers.

It's very quiet and safe beneath the sand... until the tide comes in.

However, if I felt otherwise like many or all of you here I wouldn't care what the consequences were I'd fight them, but head on, not from the shadows and at a distance.

What does "head on" mean? That you would tackle PA in person, maybe going to Maryland to do so?

Most of you have discussed this matter with me politely and intelligently and I understand you feel crushed

I don't feel crushed at all, so I'm not sure where you got that from. But best of luck with your book.

[Terie]

...I'd fight them, but head on, not from the shadows and at a distance. ... Most of you have discussed this matter with me politely and intelligently and I understand you feel crushed but since I am out of advice I'll withdraw from the discussion. Thanks for all the positive advice and Best Wishes.

The number one rule here at AW is to respect our fellow writers. Of course we've discussed this with you politely. :)

Few of us feel crushed, because most of us aren't PA victims; we're writers trying to keep fellow travellers from making a mistake by signing with PA, and also supporting those who've been hurt by PA. If you'd read through the threads, you'd know that.

And we're not fighting from the shadows; we're right here, in a very public place that we know PA's principals monitor. Many of us (myself included) use our real names. That's not fighting in the shadows.

Please do come back and let us know how things go on your next book.

[Sepisllib]

One thing, from what I have read over the past few months, is that PA seems to not make accurate royalty payments.

Would be interested in knowing how many of us here that have that same issue.

I received my royalty statement and it failed to report several books sold - that I know of and can verify. Than the February statement reported not a single sale plus my book 2 was not even reported on.

Of the 30,000 or more of us I cannot believe that there are just a "few" of us in this league.

Nick - you seem to be an intelligent guy however you also seem to exude "insider" aroma.

God Bless

Bill

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
PA has let some opt out for $300.00 and that seems very reasonable to me.

Would you still find that reasonable if you knew that many authors will have already paid more than $300 to PA to buy copies of their own books? That they'd spent more than $300 on book marks, posters, lollipop trees and other nonsensical "marketing" devices to try and get people to buy their books?

Nick Masesso Jr.: (BOLDING MINE)
If they have given that deal to some they'd probably give it to others but perhaps they feel stung by those who have made a mission of slamming them to future authors.

Wait, you think that PA is the victim here?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
while I acknowledge that they should modify the word "traditional" or otherwise explain more clearly what they "don't do" since clearly many or some feel mislead by this one word, I still consider them an honest company that did a wonderful job on my book and in my view they have done everything they promised me.

So apart from the fact that they mislead people about what they do and don't do, thereby giving people unrealistic expectations, you think that they're an honest company?

Okay then.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I'd fight them, but head on, not from the shadows and at a distance.

How is this forum "in the shadows"? PA knows about it and it can be found on Google if anyone wants to find it.

As regards taking on PA "head on" what do you mean by that? Are you talking about litigation/arbitration? Because people here have done that. Do you mean talking to them direct about your problems with them? Becuase people here have done that to and got the abusive emails to evidence it.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I wouldn't let anyone stand on me.

You already are.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Once I make a deal I stick to it unless the other guy breaks it and I just don't see where they have done so.

So even though you admit that you thought that PA would do more promotion than they did, you still think they're performing in accordance with the spirit of their contract?

Okay then.



MM

[James D. Macdonald]

Nick, the problems with PA are in more than just the word "traditional" (which is undefined).

This thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32966) discusses whether PA is a vanity press and whether it engages in false and misleading advertising/deceptive trade practices.

[Jersey Chick]

PA has let some opt out for $300.00 and that seems very reasonable to me. Wow.

If they have given that deal to some they'd probably give it to others but perhaps they feel stung by those who have made a mission of slamming them to future authors. Ahh... so PA is the victim. It's those rotten, lousy, hack authors who MADE the Stooges write those vicious, insulting tone letters. I can't even take this seriously. Really.

I realized I'm in the minority here but while I acknowledge that they should modify the word "traditional" or otherwise explain more clearly what they "don't do" since clearly many or some feel mislead by this one word, I still consider them an honest company that did a wonderful job on my book and in my view they have done everything they promised me. Modify it? Hell, they invented it to describe publishing. Only in PA-land is there any such beast as "traditional" publishing.

Honest??? Really??? Have you even read through the threads where people talk about being shortchanged royalties? Or not paid any when they know damn well they've made sales? They are weasels. Their contract is worded with weasel-ese. It is done intentionally to mislead naive and/or willfully blind people - how the eff is that honest???? Argh - I'm getting irritated just typing this...


However, if I felt otherwise like many or all of you here I wouldn't care what the consequences were I'd fight them, but head on, not from the shadows and at a distance. I wouldn't let anyone stand on me. Well, I'm not fighting one way or the other. I'm not now, nor have I ever been, a PA author. But I have seen what they do to their authors and that pisses me off.

Once I make a deal I stick to it unless the other guy breaks it and I just don't see where they have done so. Ahh... yes... the old "they didn't read their contract" or "PA did everything they promised in the contract" (which is, in essence, nothing they don't damn well feel like doing - such as, oh I don't know, editing?

Most of you have discussed this matter with me politely and intelligently and I understand you feel crushed but since I am out of advice I'll withdraw from the discussion.Crushed? Really? That's what you're taking away from this? Excuse me whilst I chuckle about that. And what advice? Because no one is exclaiming, "Well, now I see the light!" you're taking your toys and leaving. Mmmmkay...

Thanks for all the positive advice and Best Wishes.Too bad you're pulling up stakes. There's so much more to this board than the PA stuff. But, that kind of makes me wonder just why you're here in the first place, FWIW.

[Queen of Swords]

Wow.

Makes me wonder what would be considered unreasonable.

Ahh... so PA is the victim. It's those rotten, lousy, hack authors who MADE the Stooges write those vicious, insulting tone letters. I can't even take this seriously. Really.

Actually, it's worse than that.

Remember, Nick says that PA is "stung" by those who have made a "mission out of slamming them" - i.e. people who dare to offer criticism of his publisher.

So therefore, Victim PA writes spiteful and nasty tone letters to authors who had nothing to do with the "mission". Which is cruel at best. But PA can't help being cruel, because PA was so "stung" by us.

In other words, we made PA do it.

Honest??? Really??? Have you even read through the threads where people talk about being shortchanged royalties?

No, he hasn't. I can't count the number of comments or suggestions he made which showed he wasn't reading the threads.

When it comes to supporting a scam, the less you're aware of, the happier you'll be.

[DreamWeaver]

Well, I must say Nick is much more polite than some of the people who come in here defending PA's way of not promising to do anything in their contract. That's certainly refreshing, even if the clue bird has so far not managed a direct strike. Sometimes it takes the clue bird a few months to really line that target up properly.

Off Topic: I want a smiley of the clue bird delivering a clue via air mail, and another smiley showing someone getting smacked with the clue-by-four. Both would be extremely useful.

[Gillhoughly]

Originally Posted by Nick Masesso Jr. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4869625#post4869625)
PA has let some opt out for $300.00 and that seems very reasonable to me.


It violates Yog's Law: Money flows to the writer.

In legit pro publishing it is the publisher who takes the risk on the writer, not the other way around.

It is the publisher who invests in the writer's work and if the investment doesn't pay off, the publisher takes the loss.

This includes the writer being unable to deliver a manuscript as promised, in which case the writer can return the advance and the contract is canceled, or the publisher shrugs off the advance as a business loss. Both are bad for the writer's career, but I know of no pro publisher with the gall to demand the writer pay THEM a kill fee.

Apparently, neither do many of the PA victims who fall for that ploy. Some will pay it so Willie goes on another joyride in his hellcopter.

We'll have to agree to disagree, kiddo. Your blinders are on and you like it that way.

There are simply going to be some people who continue to ignore the fact that the emperor is buck nekked and scrofulous.

[Gravity]

Thirty minutes--even fifteen--spent Googling these yahoos and reading the horror stories should convice anybody these guys are pure poison.

I think we're being played.

[ResearchGuy]

It violates Yog's Law: Money flows to the writer.

. . . .
True, but not necessarily the deciding factor. One pays a penalty in one way or another for signing an unfavorable contract. It might be a matter of which is worth more, the dollars or the hours (maybe a lot of them), vexation, and loss of rights to one's literary property. For some, buying a way out of a mistake is the best choice.

--Ken

[Gillhoughly]

Just not a good choice for people on a fixed income. They may think that's how business is done, and PA is never going to correct that impression.

Gosh, life must be SO easy for them, what with not having a conscience or scruples.

[ResearchGuy]

Just not a good choice for people on a fixed income. ...
Signing the contract was not a good choice. What's done is done. Some will choose to liquidate the damages and some will not.

--Ken

[Anon76]

Most of you have discussed this matter with me politely and intelligently and I understand you feel crushed but since I am out of advice I'll withdraw from the discussion. Thanks for all the positive advice and Best Wishes.

I am not crushed because I am not a PA author.

But again I will say, I wish you the very best in your writing, career or otherwise.

It is my fondest wish that PA satisfies all your needs and you don't return here at a later date, or on your website, with a 180 degree opinion of them. This HAS happened before. Often.

And none of us blame the PA authors for this. PA promotes a cultish atmosphere. They work very hard to make you believe that if your book doesn't sell, it's your fault. Your fault by not buying your own book and pandering it to all and sundry. Most of whom, outside of family and friends, couldn't care less.

That said, AW has many other forums that offer wonderful information. I hope you hang around to take advantage of some of that.

[BenPanced]

Take a look at the PA boards here and the stories from those who've been successfully released from their contracts. Ask them if they're crushed.

[Anon76]

Off Topic: I want a smiley of the clue bird delivering a clue via air mail, and another smiley showing someone getting smacked with the clue-by-four. Both would be extremely useful.

Hahahahahaha. Darn, if I didn't think some people would abuse those emoticons to be cruel, I'd be all for it.

Thanks for making me laugh, though. I've been doing the seven day work week for a while now, and my funny bone is osteoing right now.

[DaveKuzminski]

PA has let some opt out for $300.00 and that seems very reasonable to me.

The problem is that PA has blocked any chance of real distribution by making their books non-returnable so that retailers wouldn't order. Then when they did, they set the return fees so out of whack that it wasn't worth it to retailers to order. Likewise, they set the retail price so high that people wouldn't want to order unless they were family or a very good friend. Unfortunately, the editing simply wasn't up to snuff, so people wouldn't order. In other words, PA rigged the game against the authors so they'd have to self-purchase in order to sell any books by placing them on consignment. So the $300 isn't at all reasonable under those circumstances especially since the book's already been published and unlikely to be picked up by a legitimate publisher.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I thought that PA did make their books returnable, but only offered such a pitiful discount that it didn't make it worth it anyway.

[colealpaugh]

And it's always nice to remember that PA's Executive Director Miranda Prather's claim to fame is a guilty plea on three counts of harassment -- in exchange for a number of other charges being dropped. The fake threatening posters she put up were filled with typos, which probably led to her being hired at PA.

To be clear, according to police and her own admission of guilt, the executive director of Publish America wrote and posted the following on posters she placed around a college campus:

"Are you sick of queers polluting this great land with there filth? I thought so. Want to do something? Join the Fist of God. With his might, we can ride the world of there sickness. Ask around. We'll find you." -- Miranda Prather, Executive Director, PublishAmerica (hired in spite of, or perhaps because of, her criminal record)

Another of her posters:

"Take us seriously, or we'll begin executing one queer a week following this list." -- Miranda Prather, Executive Director, PublishAmerica (hired in spite of, or perhaps because, of her criminal record)

Miranda's defense for videotapes showing a woman who looked EXACTLY like her committing the crime? She told police it was a woman who got plastic surgery to look like Miranda and that the woman was obsessed with her and forced her to do it. Eh, then she fessed-up in front of the judge.

Does anyone believe her current job indicates ANY change in character?


ETA:

From the Globe-News:

"When asked after her hearing about rumors that she was writing a book on the case or trying to get her story on NBC-TV's "Leeza Show," Prather just smiled, arched her eyebrows and said nothing.

Eastham said Prather's attorney, Tom Harden, told the court he had been contacted by the "Leeza Show" about a possible appearance by Prather.

None of Prather's victims were in court Wednesday. Eastham said letters were sent to all of them notifying them of the plea agreement and hearing. But she said the victims were reluctant to speak publicly because they were terrorized and frightened by Prather's threats."

Prather was charged with circulating fliers and mail in Portales claiming to be from "The Fist of God," which threatened death and injury to specific ENMU professors and to homosexuals in general.

[TheTinCat]

I thought that PA did make their books returnable, but only offered such a pitiful discount that it didn't make it worth it anyway.

I believe the stores can choose whether they want a real discount or if they want the books to be returnable - but they can't have both.

[DreamWeaver]

I believe the stores can choose whether they want a real discount or if they want the books to be returnable - but they can't have both. The key being, stores need both and get both from distributors and independent commercial publishers.

One could argue stores could operate without returnability, but in order to do so profitably they would have to order at an even greater initial discount, to cover the losses from books which simply don't sell at all.

[Gillhoughly]

The source for the info here on Prather is from this Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Prather) and its many links at the bottom. Just so the newbies know that no one is making this stuff up. Truth IS stranger than fiction and all that!

As for the "look alike" Prather accused of doing the fell deeds, Jessica Forrester---that was the name of a character from The Bold and the Beautiful, played by the gorgeous Maitland Ward (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005533/) from 1994-1996.

It's not outside possibility that Prather was a fan of the show and in 1997 gave the character's name to the police as one of the perps. It should be noted that Ward looks nothing like Prather (http://www.facebook.com/reqs.php#%21/bluebluesea?ref=search&sid=679251433.1077887985..1), so it could be wishful thinking on the InfoMonster's part. Heck, I can uderstand--I wouldn't mind looking that good, myself!

If any of those cops had been soap fans, they'd have twigged sooner about the deception.

Ohhh--check out this MySpace page. (http://www.myspace.com/bluebluesea13) Looks like our girl is sick of PA, too, if one can trust her comment.

It says she graduated from ENMU in 1996 with a BA. How did she ever find the time? (How did she ever not learn how to use the spellcheck?)

She's here on an alumni list (http://www.enmu.edu/friends/alumni/directory/index.php?ltr=P)--along with a PA email that may or may not be valid.

I wish her well in finding a job that values abusive, unprofessional behavior and batshit insane paranoia. I've already suggested bill collection agencies might find use for that sort of thing.

Just don't go on a job hunt near Frederick. PA must have canned half the town by now and none of them will have fond feelings for their former boss.

[ResearchGuy]

... Truth IS stranger than fiction and all that!
....
Five years ago, I personally saw PA's promotional brochure. It was littered with errors, and it included among its cover images one of a book with a spelling error in the title, in big print, right on the cover. (Amoung the Ravening Sharks -- which might actually have been a pretty interesting book.) That spelling error was not just on the cover. That was the title of the book. Alas, I did not keep the brochure (or long ago misplaced it deep in my household clutter).

--Ken

[ResearchGuy]

... One could argue stores could operate without returnability, ... .
Doubtful, IMHO. Because payment is not due for 90 days (I believe this is typical in the industry), stores can keep rolling over stock, never paying for not-yet-sold books. A publisher friend of mine has run into that with college bookstores, which will return unsold books and then turn around and re-order the same books for the next semester. (He publishes textbooks, primarily.) Anyway, much deeper discounts and the whole system would fall apart. Publishers have to swallow 60% or 65% discounts already (plus shipping costs!) for books sold via distributors. It's a tough business.

--Ken

[Sepisllib]

Oh - she's apparently getting rattled. She addressed this issue quite some time ago and I checked with the postal authorities and found that they, PA, have every right to route the mail as they please once it arrives and is signed for by an authorized agent (which apparently happened). Now - the Registered letter is something different.

Anyway - here is what I received just a bit ago - for the 2nd time.

************************************************** **************

Do not address us in such a tone, and please consult an attorney prior to accusing us of nonsense that you do not understand. Further such nonsense will be ignored.

One: No, that is not a "federal offense", and it is not an "offense" at all.

Two: Yes, the author support team does have the authority to handle your request.

Instructions for contract termination were already sent to you. Did you receive them?

PublishAmerica Author Support
support@publishamerica.com (support@publishamerica.com)

************************************************** ***********

Woooo - now we know "who" the Author Support Team consists of don't we? This means that my letter declaring I shall not renew either contract has indeed reached it's intended recipient and is valid.

Still have not received the return of the Registered letter - but I really don't expect to either.

Won't be long now - they just may be quite busy searching their fields and picking up the cow pies and burying them as fast as they can ---------

God Bless

Bill

[Sepisllib]

Oh yes - one more thing.

The reply noted I was making "false accusations"

However here is the letter that has them so furious:

************************************************** ************
This is the letter that they sent to me "after" receiving the certified letter I sent to Mr. Copper - an "agent" signed for the letter.

Your letter did not reach the intended recipient, and it will not be directed anywhere within the company. Our author support team, only, answers all such queries. Paper letters, both registered and unregistered, go only to the support team just as email letters. They are not directed anywhere else within the company, and they are not given priority.
As we made clear when you signed our contract, we would like you to please use email as your means of contacting us. This way we can respond to your issues much more quickly and efficiently.
If you would please send your question to <mailto:support@publishamerica.com>support@publishamerica.com (support@publishamerica.com>support@publishamerica.com) , we will be happy to respond promptly.
Thank you
************************************************** **************************
This was my reply to the above (unsigned) letter from them. Apparently this is the letter that was accusing them.

Unfortunately there are a couple of problems with this correspondence, the first being that of interception of federal postal mail.
One - As I recall it is a federal offense to intercept, remove, discard certified letters that are meant, and addressed to, specific individuals. From this correspondence it appears this certainly is the case here.
Two - you, as author support team members, simply do not have the authority to properly handle and dispose of my request.
That being said I will repeat my request for termination of my contracts on both books (Golden Grass and The Velvet Rocking Chair), and reinstate my position as author making this request for cancellation and return of all my rights.
You see - both books you have in your data base is now "dead." Neither one is being actively pursued as a printed book and in as I have previously stated in two letters... I shall not purchase a single book of either one in the future. Furthermore I have totally discontinued my efforts to promote either book.
I am replying to this e-mail from your team in anticipation that "you as the author support team" will submit this request... for a favorable decision for both myself and Publish America LLLP
God Bless

Bill

[B.L. Robinson]

I attempted to get released from my contract but evidently touched a nerve with my "nonsense' emails as they not only refused to let me cancel it, they either blocked my email address or marked it as spam, since I can't get a reply from them on anything any longer... I would have thought that being able to maintain communication with my "publisher" would have been a requirement, don't you? lol... I had changed emails some time before that, so have still been getting their "info-emails" over the years, the latest one received just today, urges me to "Buy five softcovers and get 10 hardcovers for free!" and if you buy 8 softcovers WE WILL SEND YOU 16 HARDCOVERS!!!!"

I generally send back a quick note saying no thanks, too little too late, the countdown to the expiration of my contract is...260 days! That is the actual date, of course in my contract it says that any agreement to continue to "publish" my book must be ratified at least three months prior to that date.

[ResearchGuy]

... interception of federal postal mail.
One - As I recall it is a federal offense to intercept, remove, discard certified letters that are meant, and addressed to, specific individuals. From this correspondence it appears this certainly is the case here....
Oh, good one! Sic the Postal Inspectors on them! They can probably weasel out under claim that those intercepting were acting as authorized agent, but still . . .

--Ken

[Gillhoughly]

Yes, indeed.

File a formal complaint with the Postal Service about this, then make sure PA knows that you have done so.

It would make Larry Clopper's day a LOT easier if he'd just answer his damn mail, cancel the contracts for writers who want out, and get on with trying to rip off new victims.

That's a HINT, Larry.

[DaveKuzminski]

Then take them to either arbitration or court according to your contract and point out how PA is trying to avoid legal correspondence with you according to your contract.

Oh, when you contact the postal authorities, give them a copy of the letter that PA sent in return. It should make a good exhibit in arbitration or court, too.

[DaveKuzminski]

I generally send back a quick note saying no thanks, too little too late, the countdown to the expiration of my contract is...260 days! That is the actual date, of course in my contract it says that any agreement to continue to "publish" my book must be ratified at least three months prior to that date.

Make sure your contract doesn't state that you have to decline to renew it prior to three months before that date. If it does, be sure you send them the notice in case it has an automatic renewal.

[Sepisllib]

Yes, indeed.

File a formal complaint with the Postal Service about this, then make sure PA knows that you have done so.

It would make Larry Clopper's day a LOT easier if he'd just answer his damn mail, cancel the contracts for writers who want out, and get on with trying to rip off new victims.

That's a HINT, Larry.

That's an option - however I am patiently waiting for the return of my "registered" letter sent as "restricted delivery" - the return of that letter as refused is good as gold in an arbitration or court - especially after the introduction of two (2) certified letters and along with the last e-mail in which they admitted receiving the certified letters......

Know how to spell "paint themselves into a corner?"

God Bless

Bill

[Monkey]

They keep saying that you have already been told how to cancel your contract...maybe I just missed it in reading through this thread, but what did they tell you? Was it the old "send us money first" thing?

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I don't even think THEY keep track of what they tell people

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

To those who object to not having editing done by PA; this was one of the major selling points that attracted me. I did not want anyone to touch a word. They state on the first page of my book; "PA has allowed this work to remain exactly as the author intended, verbatim, without editorial input". I just received the cover & text proofs after only two weeks of my submitting them and the book looks great with no mistakes and has a first class cover just like the one they did for me 5 years ago. I think you folks should acknowledge that many authors such as myself like this company and have had a great experience and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid. You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

[waylander]

Ever heard of 'golden words syndrome'?

[Queen of Swords]

To those who object to not having editing done by PA; this was one of the major selling points that attracted me. I did not want anyone to touch a word.

If you believe that your work is of such a caliber that it requires no editing or copyediting, then I have to agree that PA is the perfect printer for you.

Personally, I found that editors made my work better.

They state on the first page of my book; "PA has allowed this work to remain exactly as the author intended, verbatim, without editorial input".

Which can be translated as: "Warning: This book was printed by a vanity press, because no real publisher would dream of putting a disclaimer like that on a book."

I just received the cover & text proofs after only two weeks of my submitting them and the book looks great with no mistakes and has a first class cover just like the one they did for me 5 years ago.

I can see you haven't looked at the thread about stock image covers.

There seem to be many threads that you haven't read. It's probably better for your continued satisfaction with PA that you ignore them, though.

I think you folks should acknowledge that many authors such as myself like this company and have had a great experience and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid.

Just curious, Nick.

Should you acknowledge that many authors unlike yourself have legitimate problems with this company, and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid?

And even you mention previously that you wish PA did more promotion. So maybe your experience wasn't as great as all that.

[kaitie]

To those who object to not having editing done by PA; this was one of the major selling points that attracted me. I did not want anyone to touch a word. They state on the first page of my book; "PA has allowed this work to remain exactly as the author intended, verbatim, without editorial input". I just received the cover & text proofs after only two weeks of my submitting them and the book looks great with no mistakes and has a first class cover just like the one they did for me 5 years ago. I think you folks should acknowledge that many authors such as myself like this company and have had a great experience and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid. You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

The big problem with this is that no author, no matter who, is so good they don't need to be edited. Period. Now, there are some authors who regularly STET any changes made by an editor, even when they're legitimate grammar/spelling changes, and I can't ever think of an example when it's known that an author does that and the readers view it as a good thing. In fact, it tends to mean that the work is filled with errors that become distracting to read.

1) We are so close to our work that it's sometimes difficult to see where improvements could be made (as someone currently doing a major rewrite based on feedback solely because I couldn't get far enough away to see this objectively, I know how this goes).

2) We're human. That means we make mistakes. And most of us aren't editors. Most of us don't get our grammar and spelling right 100% of the time. So a copy-editor is going to be necessary in any case.

3) Editors can point out places that are too wordy/need to be fleshed out. They can point out repetitions, or places that just aren't working, or any number of things that we might not have noticed or considered. I've had a couple of particular phrases that I used way too often, but I didn't realize it until a beta reader pointed it out to me. Then I knew to go back and watch out for that so as not to become repetitive.

A writer's job is not just to put words on the page, but to edit and revise and rewrite those words until they're as good as they can possibly be.

There is no rule saying that an author has to accept every change an editor suggests, but what an author should do is listen to the suggestions with an open mind, really consider whether or not those changes might improve the work, and if they agree that they will, they should work to implement them for the sake of improving.

I've personally read through the first few pages of one of your books, and there are a few places where a good editor would have been able to improve the wording/grammar. Is it good overall? Yeah. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that things can always be improved. And if you can have a stronger work, honestly why wouldn't you want to do it? If I was ever going to self-publish something, I can guarantee I would be hiring an editor first just so I could be certain I was putting out the best work possible.

The truth is, an editor wouldn't want to work with an author with golden word syndrome. It's exceptionally frustrating for an editor when the author is someone who refuses to make changes. The author/editor relationship should be more like a partnership. The editor doesn't get to insist that you make all of their changes (I don't know where authors get this impression), and authors don't get to refuse to follow any suggestions.

If the problem is one of a lack of confidence about the work and a fear of criticism, then start out slow, have a few people (other than family or people who will tell you what you want to hear) look over it and try to point out suggestions. Put a couple of pages in the SYW area and see what people have to say. You could learn a lot and more than anything it helps realize that criticism exists to make your work better, not point out flaws in the writer.

If the case is more one that you really believe that every word, comma, period, etc. that you have written is absolutely perfect as is and to change one iota of it would ruin the piece...well, that can't be helped. Unfortunately, the authors who truly believe this also tend to be the ones who aren't particularly good and will have a hard time ever having work that is of a publishable quality because these are the same authors who are unwilling to learn by their mistakes and grow.

ETA: I have to comment on the gullibility thing. We've said it before and we'll say it again: if someone goes into it with completely open eyes and still wants to try it, that's their choice and we'll let them do it. We want to avoid new writers getting into something they don't understand. Which is the category most of the authors snatched up by PA sadly fall into.

There are some people for whom self-publishing is a good choice. We've readily admitted that numerous times. Perhaps you're one of them. I am still not going to recommend a company that does things like charge for goods not delivered, has terrible customer service, has outrageous charges for things that a self-publishing author should have control over (editing, covers, etc.), and that charges so much over the normal market price that the author will almost certainly have to take a loss and never see a profit.

If you want to self-publish, we can recommend great companies that won't take advantage of you, will offer good customer service, and won't charge out the wazoo for everything. Oh, and you wouldn't get those annoying emails all the time.

What we have said, repeatedly, is if you haven't gotten screwed by PA then awesome. But what we're hoping you'll realize is that you're one of the lucky ones. And sadly, I feel like it's only a matter of time until you don't receive a shipment for weeks, or find that none of your books are placed in online shop, or that you receive your order and find that the pages are glued together and unreadable. And then you have to spend weeks emailing and calling the 900 number which no one ever answers and always has a full mailbox trying to find out how to fix it. I'm sorry, and I really hope that you never do have to go through that, but given the rate things are going at these days, the odds are against you.

It's good that you haven't been royally frakked, but considering the exceptionally well documented evidence indicating that even for a person who wants to self/vanity publish the company is a terrible choice, we're going to continue warning people against them.

[Christine N.]

Everyone needs an editor. EVERYONE. To think otherwise is hubris.

And yes, Nick, please drop into the stock cover image thread. You might find your cover there- on someone else's book.

[TheTinCat]

Everyone needs an editor. EVERYONE.

QFT. I have never read a book by someone who pulled an Anne Rice where the work didn't suffer for it. Never.

And as for Anne Rice, well ... let's not get into that.

[Captcha]

Nick, is there no desire on your part to avoid supporting a company that has screwed your fellow writers? If PA's doing a reasonable job for you, that's great FOR YOU, but every dollar you send them supports a business model that is hurting other people. Are you okay with doing that?

If there were no options available, I can see how you could justify your decisions based on a sort of 'buyer beware' philosophy. But there are options. So if you continue to do business with PA, you're either saying that you don't believe the horror stories that are posted here, or that you believe them but don't care. You can't use the excuse of ignorance, because these threads make the situation crystal clear.

[Momento Mori]

Hi, Nick, what happened to withdrawing from the discussion?

Let me ask you a better question: why are you commenting on this discussion?

You're a happy PA customer/author. You don't seem to think that any of the myriad of wrongs that PA does is their fault. You seem to think that anyone who points out what's wrong with PA is a basher and/or that we're all disgruntled former PA authors.

You're made your point that you're happy with PA. That's up to you. If you ever change your opinion that we'll still be here and we'll still be right.

MM

[Sepisllib]

They keep saying that you have already been told how to cancel your contract...maybe I just missed it in reading through this thread, but what did they tell you? Was it the old "send us money first" thing?

Yes - I received two of these e-mails about a month ago (forgot to look at the date so I could post it here). One was for my first book and exactly the same letter was sent for 2nd one.

Only thing is - I have already purchased over 150 books of the first one and only 12 for second one. I will not purchase any more of my own books - they are "dead" as far as I am concerned.

Here is their stipulation:
************************************************** ***********
We have received your request to terminate your book's contract. As a
general rule, publishers are not in favor of that. When a publisher
agrees to contract a book, it is done with an expectation of entering
into a profitable venture. This is why we enter into contracts with a
seven-year lifetime, which affords the book ample opportunity to turn a profit.
If your request was granted, PublishAmerica would be denied,
prematurely, any hope of recovering its expenses. This is why we would
prefer to finish production of your book, keeping the contract in
place until its expiration date.
Therefore, if you were to persist on wishing to relinquish your status
as a published author, we can only grant your request upon a purchase
of 50 copies of your book, by either you or a third party, at a deep
60 pct discount, which will help to offset some of our losses. Please
let us know if you want to proceed with termination on these terms. If
not, we will both understand and applaud your decision. As said, we
prefer to keep the book under contract.
Thank You,
Nicole
PublishAmerica
nicoler@publishamerica.com

************************************************** ************

Kind of cut and paste isn't it? They, PA, certainly are focused on obtaining every drop of blood from their authors and it shows.

One thing I have never mentioned is that they, PA, inserted more errors into my books then existed when I sent them the MS. One great example is the index page - even though I sent that to them, they simply failed to put it in. I noticed that up front, thought about making that change however decided it was not worth it.


God Bless

Bill

[brianm]

I think you folks should acknowledge that many authors such as myself like this company and have had a great experience and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid. You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

Nick,

I realize that all writers have different goals for their writing and it is apparent you are content to be vanity published and to be part of PA's author mill family. So be it and I wish you continued happiness with your choice of publisher.

That said, do yourself and your fellow writers a favor and stop making excuses for PA and stop pretending PA is anything other than a vanity press/author mill. If any PA author is offended by the truth, then that is their problem. PA is what she is and until its owners come clean about their true business model or close their doors, these threads will continue to warn newbie writers that PA is a vanity press/author mill.

~brianm~

[ChristineR]

There's a place for vanity publishers and printers who don't do any real work. There's a place for publishers who don't charge upfront, and who make it up by charging high per copy prices. But there's no place for the rights grabs, for the rude e-mails, for the 900 number to get customer service, for the long delays, for the royalties withheld because PA didn't think through their contract with Ingrams, for the errors introduced by PA and costing $99 to get fixed, for the censorship on the message board, for the misleading advertising....have I left off anything important? Someone else can fill it in.

Sorry, Nick, but if your choice was to go that route, you'd be much better off with Createspace or Lulu.

[Gillhoughly]

"PA has allowed this work to remain exactly as the author intended, verbatim, without editorial input"

Which is a big fat warning alarm to anyone with the brains/experience to heed it.

Only to the gullible, to those whose egos won't allow that they just might have mistakes in their precious work, and to the completely clueless newbie does THAT sound like a good thing.

I'm a pro editor as well as writer. I do my best to turn in as clean a MS as possible. I take a great deal of pride in weeding out mistakes and making sure every word is where it's supposed to be and doing its job.

And yet my MS still comes back covered with blue pencil because a fresh set of eyes saw what I missed.

Am I mad? Hell no. I'm grateful.

Better believe that good as I am, I WANT an editor--a professional editor, not some grad student at PA--checking my work.

It never occurred to me to NOT have an editor for a self-pub project I once did. I knew, despite my experience, that going without would be bloody stupid.

Here's the Anne Rice rant others referred (http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/archive/t-326444.html) to; she put on a crazy hat and cut loose, slamming the people who made her wealthy. (Duh.) She claims she doesn't need an editor. The text clearly shows she is in dire need. (The word you want is "libel" not "slander", dear. Ever hear of paragraph breaks? How's that Jesus-channeling going for you?)

I think you folks should acknowledge that many authors such as myself like this company and have had a great experience and that there just possibly could be an opinion contrary to yours that is valid.

You'll have a long, long wait for that to ever happen.

PA worked for you, but not the vast majority of the other 40K writers who felt they had been lied to and cheated.

PA continues to LIE on their website.

So long as they continue to lie, we will continue to warn people.

You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

I know I wrote something in this forum about a segment of the population who refuses to see the emperor is nekked.

Once again--even self-pubbing through Lulu is better than dropping one's book into the PA tar pit.

[Anon76]

Nick, more than one person on this forum has wished you well more than once. Our beef has never been with the PA authors, but PA itself.

At this point, you will never be able to change our minds, and we will never be able to change yours. The only individuals who can effect change at this point are the owners of PA. We'd shut up if they changed their shoddy, abusive business practices, or you will feel differently if/when they give you a ticket to their "unhappy author" merry-go-round. In the mean time, we well have to agree to disagree.

I would like to point out one thing, though. AW is not the only discussion group for writers and/or readers on the net. PA is not the only publisher who has had authors step forward to voice complaints about things like, poor editing, late/misreported royalties, abusive treatment, etc.

Often in these cases, authors step forward to defend their publishers. (And sometimes staff of the publishing house itself.) Acting as cheerleaders, if you will. They've found a loving, happy home, and while they can feel some sympathy for the disgruntled authors, through continued conversation it is revealed that many think the others are just whiners. Wanting too much, not understanding their contracts, poor sales due to shoddy writing, etc.

Here is my conclusion through observation: 1) Once one author comes forward with reports of abuse, others find the nerve to step forward, too 2) reports of loss of contact with publisher and questionable/late royalties signals financial problems within the company. (Not with PA, though. It's their SOP.) 3) 99% of these companies fold within 6-12 months from the initial reports of abuse. (Not PA, though. Since the authors themselves are the revenue stream, outside sales have no impact on their business. Only the reduction of new submissions has any effect.)

And lastly: No matter what, all publishers will face a few disgruntled authors on occassion. BUT, reputable publishers don't need a cheering squad. In fact, they discourage it. Their reputations and their business practices SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

ETA: You may have heard of Harlequin, yes? They are the big dog in publishing womens' romance. They've had a pretty stellar track record...until recently. Recently they joined forces with AuthorHouse to create a pay-to-play publishing leg, Dellarte Press. The outcry was deafening. And for the first time that I can remember, Harlequin staff hit the message boards to defend their position. I see it as: bad business equals need for cheerleading. IMHO

[DeadlyAccurate]

You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

I can't come to any other conclusion. Going with PA despite reading the mounds of warnings is like running into the middle of the interstate even after hundreds of people have warned you the traffic is heavy. It's always going to hurt in the end.

Oh, and being a diehard cheerleader for them won't save you either. They toss them aside just as quickly.

Giving your book to PA is worse than just throwing it in the trash. Everyone in the publishing industry thinks your printer is a joke and/or a scam (if they've even heard of it at all). Telling agents or editors you're published with PA and meaning it lets them know you're completely naive about the industry. Some will overlook it and try to see the book beneath; others will dismiss you immediately as a complete noob who will require way too much hand-holding to educate about the industry. But absolutely none of them will consider it an actual credit, any more than it's a credit to write a story and stick it on your fridge.

To those who object to not having editing done by PA; this was one of the major selling points that attracted me. I did not want anyone to touch a word.Editors at real publishing houses don't make changes without your consent. They suggest changes and leave it up to you whether they should be made. And every writer needs an editor. Every one. You may think you don't, but you're wrong. And any writers who says their book was published (or in PA's case, printed) without editorial input is completely off my list as a potential purchase. I will not pay to read unedited slush.

[colealpaugh]

To those who object to not having editing done by PA; this was one of the major selling points that attracted me. I did not want anyone to touch a word.

Nick, do the glaring typos in your first book bother you? I took a twenty second glance at few pages and a several jumped right out:

"But by this, time the pain was gone I suppose, and she shrugged it off."

"...expelled @ 16 for fighting..."

"Child-hood"

"...my mother had 3 miscarriages..."

"My dad use to tell me..."


I would have been really upset.

[DaveKuzminski]

Ow, my eyes.

[James D. Macdonald]

You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

Let's not forget desperate or deluded.

[Unimportant]

Let's not forget desperate or deluded.
Or hubristic? (The "Yes, but MY book is different" type.)

[TheTinCat]

Nick, do the glaring typos in your first book bother you?

There's not much he can do about them now anyway, so there's not much point in discussing them.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I will not pay to read unedited slush.

Nor will the buying public. Your friends and family might buy it because they're your friends and family. They might tell others who might buy your book. If they buy your book they'll more than likely be disappointed by the quality and not recommend it to anyone. That's about as far as anyone's work will get with PA. And while you may or may not care about that Nick (it's a little hard to tell; you say writing is spiritual and you don't care if anyone ever reads your work but then go on to be disappointed that PA doesn't market), MANY with PA do. Majority of those with PA believe their work IS going to be read by the buying public and don't understand why they don't see even the moderate sales they hope for. Why bookstores call them to come and get the unsold books. Why their friends and family rave about their book but they see $0 on their royalty statements.

Just because they're not crushing your dream Nick doesn't mean they're not doing it to others. One positive experience to many many negative ones does not legitimatize a business.

[HistorySleuth]

The exception proves the rule as they say.

[wheelwriter]

You offend perfectly intelligent folks by dismissing them as gullible or naive because they choose this firm.

I think it's akin to watching a family member or close friend enter into an unhealthy relationship. The warning signs are there if you're looking at it from the outside, but sometimes it is hard to see when you're caught up in the middle of it. Sometimes the desire to be loved (or in this case, published), can cause someone to put up with being misled, or treated poorly. The person is not stupid or any other name-calling adjective. And they're not necessarily naive or gullible, although that may play a part (because some people are very trusting). I don't want to see the victims get blamed, since that perpetuates the unhealthy relationship. I see writers as a kind of family, and it angers me to see a company take advantage of one of my own.

[merrihiatt]

Well said, wheelwriter.

[colealpaugh]

There's not much he can do about them now anyway, so there's not much point in discussing them.

Right.

And maybe this isn't the appropriate place -- and he sure never asked my opinion -- but I think he has an interesting voice and I liked the small sample of his writing I read. But not in a million years would I buy a PA book. Kind of a shame that a smart guy would choose to strangle his potential.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

I took flake from friends with degrees in Literature for sloppy editing; from dilatants, those Bukowski called the “University Boys”. I’m self educated and never went to school much which I regard as a conspiracy to make you stupid so I don’t have those chops. If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much.

Yes. The words are Golden. Kerouac’s original scroll of “On the Road” was written in two weeks on speed. It has some error in syntax, spelling and the like. It sold recently for millions and is on a national tour yet you can buy a perfectly edited copy for ten buck. Which would you prefer?

PA allowed me five pages of edits even though they had asked for a completed manuscript. I made a few changes but left some mistakes in since I like it funky and perfection doesn’t matter to me. Bukowski, Dostoevsky, Burroughs and Ginsburg wrote on toilet paper at one time.

I am reminded of what French New Wave film auteur Jean Luc Goddard famously said; that “Film was truth, 24 frames a second”. He also said “Art attracts us only by what it reveals of our most secret self.” I consider myself an ascetic; as Yeats says, when the dancer becomes the dance, busting through the artifice to get to the art.” The only thing I care about is summoning the courage to write the truth. The rest has got nothing to do with me.

Slamming Prather for her personal life seems a petty and particularly vicious low blow. I’ve been in prison on three continents and am proud of everyday I spent behind bars because it was for what I believed in.

I’ve spent the last 22 years managing a modular building company before the sensational people on Wall Street killed it. I sold 40 million dollars worth over hundreds of projects here and abroad to all manner of private and public entities. I know business and can tell a good from a bad company.

I plant my flag with the underdog as most Americans do; that’s why I like living here. When I see someone being ganged up on I raise my voice. That’s what we do in America. Also, PA is my business partner so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors. Selling books back to the author is not a crime. Many have created a cottage industry from peddling their dreams. I like that. Some of you are angry because someone objected to your tone which from what I’ve read here is pretty vitriolic and given the facts I have to say you are nine miles past reasonable.

Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. People are good; they believe in what they are doing. Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.

[Queen of Swords]

I took flake from friends with degrees in Literature for sloppy editing; from dilatants,

Flak.

Dilettantes.

Yes. The words are Golden.

Also misspelled.

Kerouac’s original scroll of “On the Road” was written in two weeks on speed. It has some error in syntax, spelling and the like. It sold recently for millions and is on a national tour yet you can buy a perfectly edited copy for ten buck. Which would you prefer?

It's not a false dichotomy where one has to choose between original prose and edited prose. With commercial publishing, I can have both.

On the whole, I don't read books printed by vanity presses for certain reasons, but one is their lack of editing.

I plant my flag with the underdog as most Americans do; that’s why I like living here. When I see someone being ganged up on I raise my voice.

I don't think so. If you did, you'd be supporting the people who have been deceived, cheated and victimized by the vanity press which printed your book.

That’s what we do in America.

I hate to have to break this to you, but some of us are (gasp!) not from America, or in America.

Also, PA is my business partner so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors.

Aren't you bringing them enough revenue, Nick? Maybe you should buy a large bulk order of your own books, to show your business partner your admiration and support.

Or wait, why not enter their auction for a ticket to the Book Expo (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/)? Just think, you could be standing proudly alongside your business partner, maybe angling for naive and inexperienced new authors too!

Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. People are good; they believe in what they are doing. Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.

Well, in that case, we are good, we believe in what we're doing and your assigning silly motives to us is just plain wrong.

Why are you being just plain wrong, Nick?

[Gravity]

Guys, we're being played.

[Queen of Swords]

I don't know... some of PA's defenders in the past have been similar. Names withheld to protect the banned.

But even if he's trolling, it's kind of funny. So far.

[colealpaugh]

I made a few changes but left some mistakes in since I like it funky

Cool, I had no idea the typos were on purpose. That's a perfectly fine explanation. Not my taste, but it's your book.

As to Miranda Prather's criminal convictions on multiple counts, I'm very much in favor of giving second chances. But scamming people out of money and smashing people's dreams doesn't seem like the best way.

I've been to more countries than you, Nick. I've been to more wars and seen more human atrocities than you. I've had my face splashed with blood and brains from soldiers marching in front of me. And I've photographed babies mutilated for fun in front of their mothers -- by soldiers funded by my government. Being more world weary than you, I do NOT give Ms. Prather a break when it comes to hurting people.

<cole climbs off his soapbox and slinks away>

[colealpaugh]

Guys, we're being played.


Maybe, but the voice of his posts match the sample pages from the PA book credited to that name.

[spike]

Guys, we're being played.

Quite possibly, but I like the replies you all have given.

Anyone who is looking for a commercial publisher will realize that PA isn't one by reading the back and forth with Nick.

Good job!

[colealpaugh]

I’ve been in prison on three continents and am proud of everyday I spent behind bars because it was for what I believed in.



It sounds as if you're suggesting Ms. Prather should take pride in having faked a hate crime to gain attention. That she spent days behind bars because it was what she believed in.

[colealpaugh]

Anyone

I'm always tempted to steal a street sign when I drive through your town.

[spike]

If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much.

A misplaced comma changes the meaning of the sentence and makes me want to throw the book against the wall. But if that's what you're going for, who am I to criticize?



Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. People are good; they believe in what they are doing. Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.

Wow. Just wow.

I have an ex-boyfriend who is a used car dealer and he would love to meet you!

[DreamWeaver]

Originally Posted by Nick Masesso Jr.
If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much.You said, it not me.

[Gillhoughly]

people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone.

And yet, that's is exactly what the Stooges DO at PA.

As for Prather, lots of kids do stupid things in college--only her stupid thing got her arrested and rightly so. Faking a crime, wasting police time, lying to the lawyer trying to defend her, wasting court time, lying, lying, lying--she got off easy. Chances are good the judge decided she was a nutter and that the great state of New Mexico was better off sending her home to mommy.

And dear PA writer, to mis-quote Lloyd Bentsen, you're no Jack Kerouac.

Neither am I, but I'm sure that if he was around today he'd have been smart enough to avoid PA, whether high as a kite or stone cold sober.

On the Road was published by Viking Press back in the day. Last I looked, they paid real advances, their writers have won Nobels, Pulitzers, National Book Awards, and hey, their books are sold in stores, all of which PA is just not able or willing to do for its writers.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2006/05/23/image1646603x.jpg

"Maybe PA will give your book the chance it deserves, senator."

[colealpaugh]

You said, it not me.

Call me, Ishmael.

[DaveKuzminski]

Gosh, Nick, whatever did you do to acquire prison time? In three countries, no less.

[Jersey Chick]

I know better but I've been revising all day (oh, that dreaded editor! How she slayeth my golden words!!!)

on that note:

I took flake from friends with degrees in Literature for sloppy editing; from dilatants, those Bukowski called the “University Boys”. I’m self educated and never went to school much which I regard as a conspiracy to make you stupid so I don’t have those chops. If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much. You took flake, huh? Nah... no editing needed. Next,

Yes. The words are Golden. Kerouac’s original scroll of “On the Road” was written in two weeks on speed. It has some error in syntax, spelling and the like. It sold recently for millions and is on a national tour yet you can buy a perfectly edited copy for ten buck. Which would you prefer? And you are Kerouac? Mmmmmkay...

next

PA allowed me five pages of edits even though they had asked for a completed manuscript. I made a few changes but left some mistakes in since I like it funky and perfection doesn’t matter to me. Bukowski, Dostoevsky, Burroughs and Ginsburg wrote on toilet paper at one time. Five whole pages. Really?

And so, just to be clear - you're up there with Kerouac and Dostoevsky? Mmmmmkay...

Next.

I am reminded of what French New Wave film auteur Jean Luc Goddard famously said; that “Film was truth, 24 frames a second”. He also said “Art attracts us only by what it reveals of our most secret self.” I consider myself an ascetic; as Yeats says, when the dancer becomes the dance, busting through the artifice to get to the art.” The only thing I care about is summoning the courage to write the truth. The rest has got nothing to do with me. le sigh

next

Slamming Prather for her personal life seems a petty and particularly vicious low blow. I’ve been in prison on three continents and am proud of everyday I spent behind bars because it was for what I believed in. And now... let me guess... Thoreau?

next

I’ve spent the last 22 years managing a modular building company before the sensational people on Wall Street killed it. I sold 40 million dollars worth over hundreds of projects here and abroad to all manner of private and public entities. I know business and can tell a good from a bad company. Not when it comes to publishers, you can't.

next

I plant my flag with the underdog as most Americans do; that’s why I like living here. When I see someone being ganged up on I raise my voice. That’s what we do in America. So PA is the underdog. Really? Mmmkay...

next

Also, PA is my business partner so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors. I'm sorry, I choked on my coffee here. This is a joke, right? It has to be. But, yes, you're right in that PA sees authors as their revenue stream. They certainly don't see readers as such, which is what a commercial publisher does.

next

Selling books back to the author is not a crime. Many have created a cottage industry from peddling their dreams. Yep. They're called vanity presses. It isn't a crime, but it is sleazy to make it seem otherwise.

I like that. And there was much rejoicing. /sarcasm

Some of you are angry because someone objected to your tone which from what I’ve read here is pretty vitriolic and given the facts I have to say you are nine miles past reasonable. Those silly, silly persons who've had the nerve, the utter balls to ask for their rights back. Why don't we have public floggings for those fools?

You are funny. You amuse me.

next

Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. Bernie Madoff would probably agree with you.

next

People are good; they believe in what they are doing. And some are not so good, but they believe in what they're doing. Your point?

next

Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.So is whitewashing truths, my friend.

Oy. I need a nap now.

[kaitie]

I took flake from friends with degrees in Literature for sloppy editing; from dilatants, those Bukowski called the “University Boys”. I’m self educated and never went to school much which I regard as a conspiracy to make you stupid so I don’t have those chops. If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much.

You don't necessarily have to be highly educated to write well. But even a person who isn't highly educated is expected to have proper grammar, word usage, and spelling in their work. Many writers are completely self-taught, and that includes learning things like that. And then we have editors to help us when we do make mistakes.

A single misplaced comma here or there won't ruin something for me, same as a random typo won't. What it does do, however, is take me out of the book. It's annoying as hell to be reading and constantly being drawn out of the story because the wording is bad or a word is misused or the grammar is incorrect. And something else about grammar--those rules aid in our understanding. Incorrect grammar can cause big problems because it can make sentences difficult to comprehend. Again, I don't see why the heck a writer wouldn't prefer to have their work error-free so that the reader is able to focus on the words and the story. Really, I don't understand the logic here.

Go read Janet Reid's complaints about typos and misused words and what not. She likes to say that words are a writer's tools: when we mess it up, we're showing that we don't know how to use the tools in our arsenals.

Yes. The words are Golden. Kerouac’s original scroll of “On the Road” was written in two weeks on speed. It has some error in syntax, spelling and the like. It sold recently for millions and is on a national tour yet you can buy a perfectly edited copy for ten buck. Which would you prefer?

The edited version. Yes, I mean that. If you give me the choice, I'll buy the edited version every time. Period. I might buy the original as a cool memento or something, but I would read the edited version.

And here's the thing: you aren't Jack Kerouac. First of all, Kerouac had lots of experience writing before he wrote that book. He wrote articles while he was in college and clearly was learning and able to use words well (and probably had an editor). He had written other works before that one and those had no doubt improved his skills. He was also a genius. And yes, genius or not, I'd still rather read him edited.

PA allowed me five pages of edits even though they had asked for a completed manuscript. I made a few changes but left some mistakes in since I like it funky and perfection doesn’t matter to me. Bukowski, Dostoevsky, Burroughs and Ginsburg wrote on toilet paper at one time.

I have mistakes in my work, too--occasional sentence fragments used for effect. Dialogue that is written in the manner in which we talk where perfect grammar would take away from the sense of realism. Thing is, in those cases they aren't mistakes. If I read a book and saw mistakes in it, I would assume either sloppy editing, an author who was just too lazy to proofread (which would annoy me), or an author who didn't know what he was doing. If you mean literal mistakes that aren't included because they add to the artistic value of the work in some way (in which case they aren't really mistakes), there's a problem.

I am reminded of what French New Wave film auteur Jean Luc Goddard famously said; that “Film was truth, 24 frames a second”. He also said “Art attracts us only by what it reveals of our most secret self.” I consider myself an ascetic; as Yeats says, when the dancer becomes the dance, busting through the artifice to get to the art.” The only thing I care about is summoning the courage to write the truth. The rest has got nothing to do with me.

And what good does that do if the writing is difficult to understand, or has poor spelling or grammar, mistakes, etc.? Being a writer is as much about the writing as the message. Plenty of people have interesting messages to tell, good ideas, etc. Most people don't have the patience or drive to learn how to actually write well. Like I said before, your writing isn't bad, which is why this is so frustrating. You have the capability to become much better, but you aren't even concerned with trying.

Anyway, it goes back to the writing tools thing. Words are our tools. We have to use them correctly to the best of our ability. Not every book out there is incredibly well-written. I occasionally see books that are just mediocre in terms of writing, but the one thing they are is correct. (exceptions like Laurell K. Hamilton and Anne Rice excluded. Those people gained enough power to think they don't need to be correct. Go read the reviews for their books on Amazon and you'll see exactly what readers think of finding mistakes in their work). And as writers, we should be concerned with using our tools to put together the best product we can as a whole.

Slamming Prather for her personal life seems a petty and particularly vicious low blow. I’ve been in prison on three continents and am proud of everyday I spent behind bars because it was for what I believed in.

Standing up for your beliefs and being a lying cheat trying to ruin other people and making vicious attacks against a minority group you are even a part of in order to gain attention? Completely different things. And if she had shown any sort of repentance and no longer lived that way, then we would be much more forgiving. Instead she spends her time writing vicious, hateful emails to her authors and threatening them while she cheats them out of money and gets rich off it. There is no indication that she has changed her stripes, and people have every right in the world to know what kind of person they are choosing to work with.

I took a class once in working with egomaniacs and sociopaths when I was in grad school. My professor's number one bit of advice by the end? If you're ever in a situation where you have to work with someone like this do whatever you can to get out. I can guarantee if I saw someone acting as petty and cruel as she does in the letters she sends, I would NEVER work with them. Hell, I crossed an agent off my list recently, a good agent with lots of sales who looked like a perfect fit for my story, solely because he came on these boards, acted like a complete jackass, and was incredibly cruel to one of the writers.

I wasn't going to work with someone like that by choice, even if he was the only person out there willing to take me.

I’ve spent the last 22 years managing a modular building company before the sensational people on Wall Street killed it. I sold 40 million dollars worth over hundreds of projects here and abroad to all manner of private and public entities. I know business and can tell a good from a bad company.

So would you mind explaining to me how this is a good company? How any of what they do is justified? Because they're still turning a profit? Still in business? Haven't been arrested? (you are aware of the lawsuit pending at the moment, right? Or the FBI investigation?) Or do you just believe that running a business has nothing to do with being a good person with good customer service who is dependable and the only thing that matters is turning a profit no matter what the bottom line? I guess if you believe the latter, this is something we'll never agree on. I expect a business to have ethics.

I plant my flag with the underdog as most Americans do; that’s why I like living here. When I see someone being ganged up on I raise my voice. That’s what we do in America. Also, PA is my business partner so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors. Selling books back to the author is not a crime. Many have created a cottage industry from peddling their dreams. I like that. Some of you are angry because someone objected to your tone which from what I’ve read here is pretty vitriolic and given the facts I have to say you are nine miles past reasonable.

Read The Threads. Please. Read the PAMB, and this one, and the older ones. Skim through the older ones. But READ them. You are seriously sticking up for a con artist. This is absolutely the exact same thing as saying, "Well, Bernie Madoff was really the good guy and it wasn't fair for him to be picked on by all those people claiming they were 'victims.'" Same. Exact. Thing. If you had actually read the threads you would realize that.

Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. People are good; they believe in what they are doing. Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.

It's been my experience that mothers murder their children and dump the bodies in a cooler to get away with it, and men don't walk into malls and start shooting. Just because I don't know anyone personally who has done these things doesn't mean they don't happen. Just because some people out there are very good people doesn't mean that there aren't people who do sick, horrifying, and downright evil things.

There are plenty of cases where "businesses" have worked based on screwing someone. The difference is that you're assuming remorse. You're assuming that the goal is to hurt someone. Most of the time it isn't. When you have an egomaniac, or a sociopath, or sometimes just a cold and uncaring person, the goal might just be "to get the most for me." There is a difference between trying to hurt someone because you enjoy it and just not caring. I can't speak for the former with these people, but I can speak for the latter, and clearly these are people who don't give a damn about who they hurt.

There are numerous publishers and agents who have sought to take advantage of authors over the years. There are agents out there who charge thousands of dollars in fees and then never once submit anything to a publisher, all the while lying about it to the author and saying that they are so that they can keep milking the money out. They get up in the morning, send out emails full of bold-faced lies to get money. Why do they do it? Because it makes them rich.

I could list at least a dozen people (not all publishing) who have set up schemes like this. It does happen. Not every publisher is like that, but just because you're a decent human being who wouldn't intentionally hurt others doesn't mean, sadly, that everyone else is the same.

We have more than enough evidence here to know better.

Sorry for the long post. I just had to respond to this.

[Unimportant]

On another website (http://hubpages.com/hub/Publish-America-scam), a new PA author posted this:

Im a recent PA author. Before I became a PA author I did my research. I saw the complaints and went ahead knowing what to expect. I am very pleased with them. I received the Book with a very good cover and just as promised. The thing is...I knew going in that they were not going to edit, or try to sell my book. But they gave me the chance no one else would...to see my book in print for abosolutly Nothing.

I love them for that.

No they are not like most good publishers, but they do America a service...you just have to know what they do and if it works for you great...if not try another way. And I reckon that's what it boils down to for a lot of people. They know perfectly well their work isn't publishable and that PA isn't a real publisher and that they'll have a readership of one. But PA lets them role-play at Published Author -- they can buy one copy and proudly display it on their shelf, and tell all their friends and family (who won't know any better) that they're Published Just Like Stephen King. And that makes them happy.

[Anon76]

Maybe, but the voice of his posts match the sample pages from the PA book credited to that name.

I agree. Call me naive, but I honestly don't believe Nick is being deceptive...a PA shill, if you will. (Oh look, I rhymed.)

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Nietzsche said; “wish hard times on your friends”. The Aeschylus school of; pathei mathos; “through suffering come wisdom, inspiration and creativity” posits the same opinion. Martin said; “unwarranted suffering is redemptive”. Jesse said; “for a man to keep you down in a ditch he has to stay there with you”. These are sentiments I happen to agree with so in my view if you feel punished by your experience; say thank you and gain. The good times just make us happy; the bad times make us what we are. I said that. To the gentleman who inquired about my prison time you can find it all written and poorly edited in my first book.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either. I write to dispel the beast. I'm going to write regardless. If someone wants to publish my journals for free I'm grateful. I don't consider what I do a commercial venture rather artistic expression. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4863352#post4863352)

Then I guess the whole point of to properly grammar and spell or not is moot, since Nick doesn't plan to make money from his writings. Although Nick, I don't understand why later you were so disappointed by PA's lack of marketing?

[colealpaugh]

Y'know what, Nick? You're happy. You sound like it. After what I've been through over the last five years (I'm not even going to attempt a round of my favorite game My Life Sucks Worse Than Yours! because that's not what we're about here), I'm not one to deny anybody their happiness. Good luck and god speed. And maybe even a ten-speed. Or full speed ahead. All we can do is tell you our experiences, and all you can do is share yours. Everybody needs to follow their bliss and it sounds like you've found yours.

That's just friggin' beautiful!

[Anon76]

Nietzsche said; “wish hard times on your friends”. The Aeschylus school of; pathei mathos; “through suffering come wisdom, inspiration and creativity” posits the same opinion. Martin said; “unwarranted suffering is redemptive”. Jesse said; “for a man to keep you down in a ditch he has to stay there with you”. These are sentiments I happen to agree with so in my view if you feel punished by your experience; say thank you and gain. The good times just make us happy; the bad times make us what we are. I said that. To the gentleman who inquired about my prison time you can find it all written and poorly edited in my first book.

And I totally get that, Nick. I've been bitch-slapped countless times, from childhood on.

And yes, I've been shaped by those things.

But, and this is a big BUT, that in no way means I will turn a blind eye if I see someone about to get bitch-slapped in the same manner. In my current world, I cannot justify sitting back and saying, "well, I had to learn the hard way and on my own, so why shouldn't that person. Yeah, I could offer some advice, but why? I never got any."

And this is not only about writing, but life in general. I've adopted more of the "pay it forward" type of attitude. If the advice is not accepted, so be it. At least I tried.

[brianm]

... as Yeats says, when the dancer becomes the dance, busting through the artifice to get to the art.” The only thing I care about is summoning the courage to write the truth. The rest has got nothing to do with me.

Dancers spend years learning the technique of dancing before they can bust through anything. If you don't learn the technique of writing, you will be unable to convey whatever message it is you are trying to convey. Once you have acquired a solid foundation in technique, then you can play around with it.

Also, PA is my business partnerYou are their customer, Nick, not their business partner.

so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors. Good for you that you finally acknowledge PA's revenue stream comes from their authors.

Selling books back to the author is not a crime. Quite so. The problem with PA, Nick, is they claim not to be a vanity press/author mill.

Finally, it’s my experience that people do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone. People are good; they believe in what they are doing. Assigning sinister motives to them is just plain wrong.Hmm... you said this.

I’ve spent the last 22 years managing a modular building company before the sensational people on Wall Street killed it.

So these "sensational people" were not out to screw anyone? They were good people just doing what they believed in? Which would be killing the company you managed for twenty-two years, right?

I hope you remembered to send them a thank you note.

~brianm~

[Queen of Swords]

These are sentiments I happen to agree with so in my view if you feel punished by your experience; say thank you and gain.

You must be hoping that PA screws you over, then. So you can thank them and be redeemed and become a better person from the experience.

[Terie]

It's been too long since I took Psyc 101. That reaction people have when they can't get what they want, so they go around saying they never wanted it in the first place? I believe we're seeing that in action right here.

[Christine N.]

Not for nothing, Nick, but there's a difference between going to jail as an activist and going to jail for being deliberately deceptive in order to draw attention to yourself.

One is honorable, the other...isn't.

As far as misplaced commas, colelpaugh is correct in that they change the meaning. Go and buy the book Eats,Shoots,and Leaves. There's also a group on Facebook that I belong to called "Let's eat Grandma! or Let's eat, Grandma! Grammar saves lives."

Think about it.

And here's the thing: you aren't Jack Kerouac. First of all, Kerouac had lots of experience writing before he wrote that book. He wrote articles while he was in college and clearly was learning and able to use words well (and probably had an editor). He had written other works before that one and those had no doubt improved his skills. He was also a genius. And yes, genius or not, I'd still rather read him edited.


This. And here's another thought: Kerouac never intended his book to be sold unedited. Many writers blast through a first draft, though today in the age of computers they go back and fix the typos and mistakes easily. He may have rewritten this manuscript, editing as he went along, to turn in a clean draft to his, wait for it, EDITOR. I'm also sure he worked WITH his editor to get the completed work out for public consumption, of which the sloppy first draft was NEVER meant to see.

Understand the difference?

[TheTinCat]

Yes. The words are Golden.

You obviously want something very different from your writing and your publisher than most of the people here - and most of the people who sign the PA contract. If you're happy, I'm happy.

Please just remember that for most others PA will not be a good choice, and we would all appreciate it very much if you would not recommend them to people who want distribution, marketing and a real shot at a career in writing.

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
If my work is not true enough to bust through a misplaced comma it’s not worth much.

Why do you care about either your work busting through or being worth anything? You have said here: (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4863352&postcount=2117)

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either. I write to dispel the beast. I'm going to write regardless. If someone wants to publish my journals for free I'm grateful. I don't consider what I do a commercial venture rather artistic expression.

So which is it? Are you secretly hoping to make money or are you just writing for yourself?

Either way, how is PA a good deal for you?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Yes. The words are Golden. Kerouac’s original scroll of “On the Road” was written in two weeks on speed. It has some error in syntax, spelling and the like. It sold recently for millions and is on a national tour yet you can buy a perfectly edited copy for ten buck. Which would you prefer?

Firstly, you are not Jack Kerouac. Secondly, even if you were Jack Kerouac, you will never sell 2 million copies of your book with PA. Ever. Unless you buy them yourself.

No one is going to know about your book except the people you yourself tell about it.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
PA allowed me five pages of edits even though they had asked for a completed manuscript. I made a few changes but left some mistakes in since I like it funky and perfection doesn’t matter to me.

Did you also like the funky imperfections that you admit here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4862652&postcount=2103) were included by PA even after you corrected them?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I’ve spent the last 22 years managing a modular building company before the sensational people on Wall Street killed it. I sold 40 million dollars worth over hundreds of projects here and abroad to all manner of private and public entities. I know business and can tell a good from a bad company.

You know, I'm going to call a bingo here because so far, Nick, you're ticking the stooge/troll boxes - you're an artist, you didn't want to make any money, PA are the dog's naughty bits, you've been in business and have made millions blah blah barf.

Here's the thing: you don't know publishing. If you did know publishing, you would not have signed with PA.

Also, those Wall Street people you seem so bitter about presumably "do not get up in the morning and go to their jobs with the motive to screw someone." So don't take it too personally, eh?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
When I see someone being ganged up on I raise my voice.

I'd have more respect for that if just once you'd given an opinion here on the abusive correspondence from PA that people have reproduced here.

This isn't about you standing up for some victim, this is about you not liking the idea you might just have been ignorant and been played because of it.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
PA is my business partner so I stick up for them against what I regard as an attempt to kill them by cutting of their revenue stream, new authors.

Well at least you seem to be acknowledging that PA makes its money from its authors and not from the book buying public.

However, unless PA are paying you for your oh-so-noble defence, you are not their business partner - you are their customer and, by your own admission, not a very good one because you don't buy your own books.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Selling books back to the author is not a crime.

Misrepresenting your business model to authors though is at the least, very questionable.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Many have created a cottage industry from peddling their dreams. I like that.

PA don't peddle dreams - they crush them by failing to make good on their representations.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Some of you are angry because someone objected to your tone which from what I’ve read here is pretty vitriolic and given the facts I have to say you are nine miles past reasonable.

I'm not angry, Nick. I'm a bit frustrated that you seem to be a blinkered individual who refuses to address points that he doesn't like either because he can't or doesn't like the implications of doing so. I'm also frustrated that for someone who started off denying that certain facts being touted here about PA were true, you now seem to be agreeing that they are true but you still think that's all okily dokily and those PA folks are good people.

Personally, I don't think you know what you want and I don't think you're prepared to accept what you've gotten yourself into. That's a personal decision. That's sad but until you're prepared to start thinking critically rather than blindly accepting, you're never going to get it.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Nietzsche said; “wish hard times on your friends”. The Aeschylus school of; pathei mathos; “through suffering come wisdom, inspiration and creativity” posits the same opinion. Martin said; “unwarranted suffering is redemptive”. Jesse said; “for a man to keep you down in a ditch he has to stay there with you”.

And you know - none of those people said you should publish with PA.

MM

[DaveKuzminski]

The question meant what were you imprisoned for? Nothing else was needed. Were you imprisoned for murder? Trespassing? Forgery? Embezzlement or fraud?

[kullervo]

Nick should be happy. He can pretend to all his friends (okay, the ones who don't Google) that his perfect book (he's admitted it isn't flawless) has been legitimately published. Better yet, because he chose PublishAmerica, his book won't be sullied by the fingers of a bunch of unworthy readers!

I suppose I should have added more errors to this post, to make it funky (fluky? funny? feeble?) but I'm obviously a lesser writer.

[circlexranch]

Two words: Stockholm Syndrome

Standing up for the underdog? The underdog here is the writers who fall for PA's claptrap and that is who we stand up for. You and your support mean no more to PA than snowflakes mean to the warm air. You are gone in an instant and PA never notices the difference (except for any money for books you left behind).

[JulieB]

This seems to be veering close to violating the #1 rule around here.

If Nick is happy with his publisher, then that's fine. If he's ever unhappy, we'll be here with virtual coffee and doughnuts.

[spike]

One more about punctuation. It does change the meaning. I don't know who wrote this, but it is the best example I know.


Dear John,

I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior.
You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we're apart. I can be forever happy - will you let me be yours?

Gloria




Dear John,

I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior.
You have ruined me. For other men, I yearn. For you, I have no feelings whatsoever. When we're apart, I can be forever happy. Will you let me be?

Yours,

Gloria

[Stacia Kane]

One more about punctuation. It does change the meaning. I don't know who wrote this, but it is the best example I know.


Let's not forget (what I believe) is the first and biggest example.

When King Edward II's wife Isabella and her lover had him captured and imprisoned at Berkely Castle, a message was sent to his captors. The message read:


Kill Edward not to fear is good.

The message, of course, could be read two ways: Kill Edward not, to fear is good," or "Kill Edward, not to fear is good."

It was deliberately missing the comma, because should the note fall into the wrong hands and the conspirators be caught, they wanted to protect themselves. They could argue that they'd intended the first meaning, when in fact they of course intended the second, and Edward was killed (in a pretty gruesome manner, I may add: they shoved a hollow reed up his ass, inserted a red-hot poker into it, and withdrew the reed, thus barbecuing him from the inside out).

So for lack of a comma, a murderer might have gone free; for lack of a comma a condemned man might have been saved.

Punctuation matters.

[Gravity]

Edward was killed (in a pretty gruesome manner, I may add: they shoved a hollow reed up his ass, inserted a red-hot poker into it, and withdrew the reed, thus barbecuing him from the inside out).

For some unfathomable reason this habanero pepper sauce I'm eating suddenly seems ... ominous.

Think I'll switch to bread pudding. Very bland bread pudding ... :D

[tlblack]

Originally Posted by Stacia Kane View Post
Edward was killed (in a pretty gruesome manner, I may add: they shoved a hollow reed up his ass, inserted a red-hot poker into it, and withdrew the reed, thus barbecuing him from the inside out).

And so the cure for hemorrhoids was born.:evil

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

In terms of the punctuation discussion; Art is an evolutionary process so I’m not ashamed to be read in my work at precisely where I am at. There’s a truth to it that I like. I’ve edited and written better this time and maybe it’ll be perfect next time. However, my work will be available in the way I did it to track my improvement. I’m not interested in looking like something I’m not. I’m not ashamed to be who I am. I’m no academic. For those who want editing either do it right yourself or hire an editor since PA said they’d publish it just the way you wrote it. Blaming them for your mistakes seems again, way past reasonable. PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor or perhaps for some other reason. In any event when I found this out I didn’t think they were evil. The purpose of my last post was to say I think engaging in negativity is unhealthy. I consider them a Partner but perhaps I am their customer which is fine by me. Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

They didn't do anything for free Nick. It's called backdoor vanity. They get you after they print your work and you essentially have no choice but to buy your own books.

It's more than reasonable to be pissed at PA for introducing errors that weren't in the manuscript before. And it's more than reasonable to be pissed that PA doesn't edit, promote or distribute so long as they want to claim they're a legitimate publisher. Because so long as they want to claim they're a legitimate publisher, then asking for them to do more than simply print the book is hardly bad form - it's what real publishers do. If they don't want to do those things that's fine. Then they need to stop parading as a real publisher and advertise themselves for the vanity publishers they are. It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with cost benefit ratio. It has to do with the fact that all three Stooges have expensive tastes that they refuse to give up.

Greed, my friend. It's all about greed. I'd open up a vanity pub tomorrow if I had no feelings whatsoever too.

[Queen of Swords]

I’m not interested in looking like something I’m not.

Odd. That's how your business partner attracts new authors - by masquerading as something it's not.

The purpose of my last post was to say I think engaging in negativity is unhealthy.

Then why do you keep saying that you were disappointed by PA's lack of promotion? Engaging in that kind of negativity is so unhealthy.

By your own reasoning, you should thank PA and be redeemed and gain by this.

Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me.

And yet you hoped PA would promote your book? You assumed they would try to sell your books to readers, after everything else they did for you for free?

That seems like really bad form to me.

[Gillhoughly]

.

http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/upload/2009/04/dr_isis_i_only_need_a_minute_o/explosion.jpg

[DreamWeaver]

:deadhorse

Going around in circles, and no one is convincing anyone. Is it time to declare this conversation dead yet?

[ETA: I take that back: no one is convincing Nick, and Nick doesn't appear to be convincing anyone. It *is* possible that convincing is going on amongst the lurkers.]


On the bright side, I have enjoyed the examples of ambiguous punctuation, and believe there's room for an entirely new sub-species of lolcat based solely on misplaced commas.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me.

They didn't do it as a favor to you, or because they liked your work, or because they're nice people. They tossed your book into a .pdf, slapped a stock image and a title on the front, and offered it back to you at an outrageous sum for the sole purpose of making money off of you.

Commercial publishers want to make money from readers. Vanity publishers want to make money from writers.

Have a little faith in your writing and try to sell it to a real publisher. Maybe this book isn't ready, but maybe the next one will be. Or the one after that. Or the one after that. But when you do make it, you'll know you actually earned it. There's no accomplishment in giving your work to a vanity press.

[tlblack]

In terms of the punctuation discussion; Art is an evolutionary process so I’m not ashamed to be read in my work at precisely where I am at. There’s a truth to it that I like. I’ve edited and written better this time and maybe it’ll be perfect next time. However, my work will be available in the way I did it to track my improvement. If you never want your work edited, then perhaps self publishing is for you. It is for some writer's and there is no shame in that. Just don't expect that people will be lining up to buy. There are also other options out there besides PA. If you can lower the retail price of your work by using a different printer, why would you not want to check out all of your options?

I’m not interested in looking like something I’m not. I’m not ashamed to be who I am. Neither am I. I write when I can, work to pay the bills; I'm a klutz and a dorky southern gal, and believe me, nobody else can be me, but... there is no way that PA will ever get their hands on any more of my work.

I’m no academic. Neither am I. I graduated from HS with a B average, and took a writing course to learn more about the writing craft.

For those who want editing either do it right yourself or hire an editor since PA said they’d publish it just the way you wrote it. Blaming them for your mistakes seems again, way past reasonable. PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. PA used to "edit" every book. (And added more errors than already existed in books.) Then as time passed, they started offering editing options. Now they don't offer editing so they can run the manuscript through faster. Instead of it taking PA to go from raw manuscript to book form around eight months, it takes somewhere around two.

As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor or perhaps for some other reason. In any event when I found this out I didn’t think they were evil. The purpose of my last post was to say I think engaging in negativity is unhealthy. When people get taken advantage of and lied to, the truth is rarely positive.

I consider them a Partner but perhaps I am their customer which is fine by me. Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me. It sounds as if you have based your decision to be content with PA on where you feel your writing stands in the literary world instead of where you would like for it to be. I'm sorry, but that sounds like an excuse not to continue looking for other venues where your work might do very well and accepting PA as a business partner. I can't say that I was happy with a 92-8% split in profits. If you're happy, then enjoy.

.

[Jersey Chick]

I'd do a line by line but frankly, I don't care enough any more.

It isn't possible he believes that nonsense about editors. It just can't be. I should hire an editor, when my publisher assigns one to me (at no cost to me **gasp**)????? I'm trying to be something I'm not because of that? WTF does this even mean? Seriously, I am at a total loss here and I'm trying real hard not to come across like a tool, but the sarcastic bitch is just dying to come out and play.

See, PA doesn't need to sell to anyone else but you because they know they can sell to you.

My head's about to essplode and I have to clean up the mess from when Gil's head essploded earlier. This is just such an eye roller it isn't funny.

This can't be serious stuff coming from this guy. It. Just. Can't.

[ResearchGuy]

:::meekly raises hand::: Isn't someone here undeserving of so much bandwidth?

--Ken

[Cyia]

Okay, whose grey matter's hanging from the chandelier this time? We just got the rugs cleaned in here people... can't you wait until they're scotch guarded before asploding all over the place? The spatter patterns are making people talk and the mystery/suspense writers are skulking about for inspiration.

"Whole thread spontaneously combusts. All that's left is a mysterious message scrawled on the wall -- "'Twas the troll what did it!"

[CatSlave]

:::meekly raises hand::: Isn't someone here undeserving of so much bandwidth?

--Ken
Bingo.
And what Gravity said.

[Don Davidson]

In terms of the punctuation discussion; Art is an evolutionary process so I’m not ashamed to be read in my work at precisely where I am at. There’s a truth to it that I like. I’ve edited and written better this time and maybe it’ll be perfect next time. However, my work will be available in the way I did it to track my improvement. I’m not interested in looking like something I’m not. I’m not ashamed to be who I am. I’m no academic. For those who want editing either do it right yourself or hire an editor since PA said they’d publish it just the way you wrote it. Blaming them for your mistakes seems again, way past reasonable. PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor or perhaps for some other reason. In any event when I found this out I didn’t think they were evil. The purpose of my last post was to say I think engaging in negativity is unhealthy. I consider them a Partner but perhaps I am their customer which is fine by me. Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me.

I come to this discussion late, and will only add two comments. First, rewriting and editing is all about respecting your reading audience too much to waste their valuable time. The purpose of editing is to make your writing clearer, easier to read, and perhaps even more enjoyable and entertaining. An English professor once told me that if your reader has to go back and re-read a sentence because the meaning wasn't clear the first time, you've lost your audience. The corollary to that is that if your reader has to do so more than rarely, he/she will probably set your book down and go on to a different book, just as people will walk out of a bad movie or turn off a bad TV show.

Second: Nick, if you are happy with PA, more power to you. But you should recognize that many authors such as myself came to PA because we honestly and actually believed the lies on PA's web site. If I had known then what I know now, I never would have signed that contract. PA's web site is deceptive because they deliberately hide their true business model behind such slogans as, "We want your book, not your money." PA pretends to be something they are not, and lies about what they are. And by the time the poor author learns the truth, it's too late. And then PA holds your book hostage for 7 years in an attempt to force you to buy and market your own book (because if you don't, no one will).

I remember the excitement and pride I felt when PA accepted my book for publication. I had a lot of naive dreams then. PA killed them all. Excitement turned to despair, and pride turned to embarrassment. That is what PA does to too many people. They hurt me, and many others like me. If you cannot see that, you are not looking closely enough.

[Gravity]

I say we put -30- on this story (old newspaper lingo) and wish this guy Godspeed. He and PA are a match made in ... well, not heaven, certainly, but somewhere ... and whether we understand it or not, he seems happier than a puppy with two peters. Bully for him, and as the great (and thankfully not late) rocker Randy Stonehill put it, let's "shut de do'."

[Cyia]

He and PA are a match made in ... well, not heaven, certainly, but somewhere ...

I'd say Limbo is appropriate because most of the PA books seem to get trapped in that place between states of being where it's "published"... but not really.

But, whatever floats your boat, dude. I hope you get out of it what you're looking for.

[merrihiatt]

Good luck with your writing career, Nick. I hope whatever you envision for your future comes to fruition.

[kaitie]

In terms of the punctuation discussion; Art is an evolutionary process so I’m not ashamed to be read in my work at precisely where I am at. There’s a truth to it that I like. I’ve edited and written better this time and maybe it’ll be perfect next time. However, my work will be available in the way I did it to track my improvement. I’m not interested in looking like something I’m not. I’m not ashamed to be who I am. I’m no academic. For those who want editing either do it right yourself or hire an editor since PA said they’d publish it just the way you wrote it. Blaming them for your mistakes seems again, way past reasonable. PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor or perhaps for some other reason. In any event when I found this out I didn’t think they were evil. The purpose of my last post was to say I think engaging in negativity is unhealthy. I consider them a Partner but perhaps I am their customer which is fine by me. Asking them for more after they have done everything they have done for me for free seems like bad form to me.

Writing improvement is visible even without having to see all the grammatical errors (and if we were talking about buying books, my thought--and every publisher's thought--will be "Fine, come back to me when you're up to par). I keep my old drafts so I can go back and see how things improve, and that's good for me. I hope that other people reading my work will be able to see improvement as well. But improvement is visible in voice, characterization, the words we chose, plotting, characterization, and a hundred other things like that. Those things are visible whether we've been edited or not. In fact, I can often tell an author's first book even when they've been edited. I regularly read series and marvel at how the writing ability improves over the course of them. Harry Potter would be a shining example.

Having an editor would not make me something I'm not, or my writing something I did not intend. It provides me with another set of eyes and another opinion to help point out the things I might not see on my own.

You told PA not to do any editing, so you probably got off lucky. For people who do expect editing, they regularly run a "correct all" spelling and grammar check that takes ten minutes to complete (documented elsewhere here) that invariably introduces more errors. Have you ever paid attention to the little green squiggles in Word? Sometimes they're right, but a lot of times they're not. If you "change all" for a particular spelling error, you might inadvertently turn a previously correct word into an error. I recently used the function to change a character's name from "Matt" to "Mike." I had quite a few cases where the word "matter" then turned into "mikeer."

This is nothing like real editing and introduces mistakes rather than correcting what was there, and then when authors receive their prints and discover the errors, they're asked to pay $99 to fix them.

We aren't suggesting that you go to PA and ask them to do all the things they should be doing. It wouldn't do you any good anyway, other than to receive rude emails in response. We aren't suggesting you go and ask them to do things that aren't in the contract. If you've been okay with their services that's fine.

What we are suggesting is that they should be honest about what they are and that authors have the right to know the truth before they get involved. Again, if someone like you knows the truth and goes into it with open eyes, that's one thing. We're trying to provide a service for those who might be considering the company so that they aren't only seeing the lies PA is offering. Well, that and trying to help them to understand the way real publishing works (as opposed to the way places like PA say it does) so that they can hopefully see through rumors about things like evil editors and learn more about the industry in general and what to expect from it.

PA profits on ignorance. If we can help people learn and understand, we've helped them.

Now pardon me, I have to go help mop up Gil.

[nikkinoffsinger]

I was one of those suckers that bought it hook line and sinker! My book is one of the highest priced ones in their online bookstore. I really should have known better-I have no one to blame but myself. I got my "free" author copy the other day and I am ashamed-mortified! It looks like its been written by someone who has no comprehension of the English language. I was upset at the price points for the book and after I sent to very polite emails to the marketing at PA I noticed I was no longer given access to the PA message boards or anything-not that any replies to the messages on the message boards. I read my contract and I even took it to a friend who is a lawyer and good with contracts. It would be a pain but there are loop holes in the contracts. They make their contracts with the bare bones meaning they have their contracts with just enough to make them slightly legal. I have decided Im going to fight my way out of my contract. I have heard that in most cases they release ppl from their contracts when threatened with law suits and so as soon as I can get up some money to file-that is what I am going to do. The bad thing is-they can still sell my book or advertise it on their online bookstore. So is there any way to stop these ppl? I mean can't we get these ppl shut down?

[Alien Enigma]

A guy came up to me at my book signing in Oklahoma yesterday. He said, "I will give you twenty bucks if you help me get published. Give me the secret information!"

I told him to give his twenty bucks to the poor kid in a wheelchair who was sitting nearby. The kid got excited and rolled away because he was bouncing up and down in it. He said, "Jeff, what is the secret?"

I referred him to Publish America.

[mccardey]

I say we put -30- on this story (old newspaper lingo)

I haven't seen that expression before.

If I wanted to use it in speech (I do - any variant of shut up!! is invaluable in our house) how would I say it?

[Gravity]

I haven't seen that expression before.

If I wanted to use it in speech (I do - any variant of shut up!! is invaluable in our house) how would I say it?

Actually it's only a written expression. When a newspaper writer was done with the story he (or she) would type -30- below the last line of copy instead of "the end." Then it's off to the editor, where hopefully it would emerge out of their hands relatively unchanged before it was given to the Linotype guys for typeset and printing.

[Gravity]

A guy came up to me at my book signing in Oklahoma yesterday. He said, "I will give you twenty bucks if you help me get published. Give me the secret information!"

I told him to give his twenty bucks to the poor kid in a wheelchair who was sitting nearby. The kid got excited and rolled away because he was bouncing up and down in it. He said, "Jeff, what is the secret?"

I referred him to Publish America.

True words, Jeff. If they'll offer a contract to a dog (which they did) they'll offer one for darn near anything. What do they care? They don't read it (nor with precious few exceptions, will anyone else).

[mccardey]

Actually it's only a written expression.

Well that's disappointing... I could get cards printed up, but it won't be nearly as effective...

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I mean can't we get these ppl shut down?
Tens of thousands of posts on this and similar threads on AW are evidence that the answer is NO. Every avenue has been explored again, and again, and again, and again, ad nauseum.

Write a better book and move on.

Allow me to recommend that instead of threats, after a while you ask for cancellation of the contract in a polite and businesslike way, explaining that you do not plan to buy any copies, and do not anticipate that anyone else will buy copies. Be nice. However much it might stick in your craw to do so, address them as if they were actually on the up and up. At worst, they say no, and you have not worked yourself into a corner, and can try again another time, while you continue to work on your new and better book.

There are other approaches, but that one seems like a reasonable starting point, and sometimes (I believe) it works.

--Ken

[Anon76]

Man, PA reminds me in so many ways of the disreputable practices of some vacuum cleaner companies.

Years ago I was freshly out of work and hard up for a job. I answered a vague ad in the paper, only to find out it was for vacuum cleaner sales. Now, there pitch was really good. Decent commission, a salary based on number of sales pitches in a certain time period, no cold sales-meaning the company would provide the leads.

Came home and explained it all to my husband, including how THIS vacuum seemed to be the cat's ass. Husband told me how he'd tried such a thing in desperation before he met me. Same spiel, different vacuum company. Latest and greatest, blada blada. Told me a ton of things that I turned a deaf ear to.

Why? Because I was so desperate and eager for a job, my brain shut down. This company was different. This vacuum different. These people weren't in the business to cheat and lie to their employees. How could they be and still survive?

And...I was different. I could make this work where others had failed. I was intelligent and driven, where as the others? Maybe not so much.

And the bit about me having to sell to friends and family? No, that's not how it works. I PRACTICE on them, then the company provides the actual sales leads. Maybe, hubby, you just ran into a bad company.

He wished me well and told me by all means to give it a shot.

Fast forward to my first practice appointment at a friend's house. She too had tried such a route, and warned me of the same things hubby warned of. Told me she had no intention of buying a vacuum, and yet dummy me insisted that it wouldn't be like that. I just had to have so many practice sessions before a real one. When done, I simply call the boss and confirm I'd done the practice.

And so, I did call the boss. The first thing the little sob wanted to know is if I had made a sale, and when I said "no, this is practice," he insisted on talking to my friend. Going for the hard sell, I'm sure.

At that point, my brain cells that had gone dormant finally kicked in. Told him he wasn't speaking to my friend, his company's claims were a lie, and I'd be returning his product the next day. Good riddance.

It was darn easy to get out of that mess, but...PA, with similar tactics, will hold you hostage for seven years.

[CatSlave]

...I referred him to Publish America.
Just yesterday? Amazing.
And you're able to sleep at night?

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I’ve edited and written better this time and maybe it’ll be perfect next time. However, my work will be available in the way I did it to track my improvement.

How does publishing with PA help you to track your improvement?

The only people who know about your book with them are the ones you tell about it. You could equally track your improvement by printing out a copy of your book and giving it to them direct. At least that way they wouldn't have to pay upwards of $15 and wait up to 4 months for delivery.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
For those who want editing either do it right yourself or hire an editor since PA said they’d publish it just the way you wrote it. Blaming them for your mistakes seems again, way past reasonable.

Again, by your own admission even when you corrected your work, PA failed to put the corrections in. Does this mean that we blame them or you?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor or perhaps for some other reason.

The very fact that you were disappointed means that you did not know or did not understand all these things going in and that's because you were sold this on the basis that it was a commercial publisher.

And yet you still keep saying that PA are not to blame.

Alien Enigma:
A guy came up to me at my book signing in Oklahoma yesterday. He said, "I will give you twenty bucks if you help me get published. Give me the secret information!"

Who supplied the books for that signing? Did PA send them along on a sale or return basis, did the store buy them in on the basis of pre-orders or did you bring along a box load that you'd pre-bought yourself?

If the last, how much have you spent on your own books over the years and how much have you made back? (Ball park figures are fine).

MM

[kaitie]

I just had a question for Alien Enigma. I just went through the old posts, and it looks like the last time you posted on here it was because you were trying to get out. Now you've gone back to them with another book? I'm just wondering what the reasoning behind it was, if you don't mind my asking. If that's a personal question and none of my business, feel free to tell me.

[Katrina S. Forest]

Not trying to make a convincing argument, but the discussion of showing "where one is" as an artist made me think about my own approach. I would never allow anything of mine to be published if I was not convinced that I had done everything in my current ability as a writer to make it the best it could be. I like my rough drafts (most of them, anyway) but they do not show where I am as a writer. That's the job of my polished work.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Kudos and thanks to Research Guy for his wonderfully insightful and informative paper linked free here; "The Pursuit of Publishing: An Unvarnished Guide for the Perplexed". I am writing what has been described as "Reality Lit", a bit of a new genre and since I do not have a platform or an audience nor is what I'm doing commercial which is to say not for the herd, PA as it turns out is a good place for me and others. For those who think they have those aforementioned attributes along with the professional chops to go commercial they should go to an agent who'll present their work to a commercial publishing house, if I read you correctly. Everyone considering writing commercially and Publishing should read this; especially those a bit starry eyed about this incredibly difficult career path and industry.

[Sepisllib]

Nick - I still don't know if you are for real or just a "snake in the grass," however your words fall on deaf ears for most of the authors that have signed with PA.

Of the 30,000 or more claimed authors, I have a strong feeling that over 2/3 of them now wish they had never heard of PA.

Likewise, of that 2/3 I would venture a guess that most of them blame themselves for being so stupid - I do, but that is just me.

You see - I am a business man currently owns 3 corporations and my businesses were all built by myself, hard work, no loans, no support from anyone (including my then wife). Well - those businesses were all built one client at a time through personal contact, and only sealed with a "personal" handshake to make the deal - man to man.

There are very few out there today that can make such a claim, however I still have my very first client on board yet.

There is something to be said about integrity, morality, ethical business practices and above all "Honesty."

I have found, unfortunately, that PA violates each and every one of these - while they don't just come out and lie to you ---- they "imply" that they do some things.

Like promotions - they, PA, asked me several times for e-mail addresses of friends and family so they, PA, could send off announcements -----------guess what----------------After over a year NOT A SINGLE E-MAIL WAS SENT TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

There is much - much more, and for you to defend them my friend places "you" in the same category as they, PA, is (in my humble opinion) ----- Morally, ethically, bankrupt and eventually there is going to be a demand for them all to defend their actions. God will judge.

There is far - far more to this story than I will get into on this forum. Lets just say that PA is just plain rotten to the core.

God Bless

Bill

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I am writing what has been described as "Reality Lit", a bit of a new genre and since I do not have a platform or an audience nor is what I'm doing commercial which is to say not for the herd, PA as it turns out is a good place for me and others.

Why is PA a good place for you?

What are PA doing that you couldn't do via Lulu or any other reputable self-publisher?

I honestly don't know how you can possibly make a claim like that given everything that's been pointed out to you here.

MM

[Queen of Swords]

I am writing what has been described as "Reality Lit", a bit of a new genre and since I do not have a platform or an audience nor is what I'm doing commercial which is to say not for the herd, PA as it turns out is a good place for me and others.

I'm not sure how an author mill without promotion or distribution is a good place for any writer, least of all one pioneering a new genre.

[kullervo]

A note about taking PublishAmerica contracts to a "lawyer friend," even one who "knows contracts." The PA contract is legal. It sucks, but it is legal. You need to take any publication contract to a publication attorney. There is a huge difference between a good contract and a bad one. You need an attorney who knows the business. I used Greg Victoroff of Rohde & Victoroff in Los Angeles, and I will again.

[narcolepticgi]

:evil to quote my fav...I'll be back, and here I am!
I want to thank my e-mail friends; Sandy, Don, TJ and Ken for helping me go from the 1st grade into a senior with a quantum leap. This forum is good for my aching soul...

It is however starting to look like its being written by retired lawyers, double speak and rebuttals; disinformation and mistruths...

I'm a hillbilly born in West-by-God-Virginia. Moral values (no red-headed stepchild puns please). A person must follow a set of values and principles. PA has violated every righteous and moral value on this planet. They "do" imply things on their website, they do give a long list of "mis-facts" to promote their endeavors implying that by using their sugguestions your book will become a sucess, they do imply on their website that "many of their 40,000" authors have become a success. All of these mistruths led me down the rosy path. I stayed on that path, buying over 35 books before the door of pandoras box hit me in the ...butt.

I really don't blame the worker bees, they're just trying to make it from day to day like the rest of us. I blame the owners and parteners; I blame the government officials that turn their backs on us "ignorant" little people who don't count because they have bigger fish to fry.

As a senior citizen, as a veteran, as a grandfather and husband who has worked for over 40 years supporting the system...who in he.. are they to say that I'm not important enough to pay attention to, I'm just a little fish.

PA is a baracuda! they may be small, but they are vicious and don't care how small the little swimmer is, they go for the kill.

I went in too Half Priced Books yesterday. My wife shopped her favorite romance section; I went down isle after isle and guess what...not one PA book, not one!

We all know that companies like this get their books from printers who have overstock that is not selling and piles of returns, so why not PA titles? Because they do not print unless the author is buying or a bookstore sells a copy paid for in advance.

I have never in my 62 years gone into Waldens, Borders, B&N and purchased a book on the premise that I had to pay to have it mailed to me or come back in when they notified me that it was finally delivered by the printer...never.

As for the lady who told the gentleman to give the $20 to a little boy in the wheelchair and told him to send his book to PA...that's hogwash lady!

I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy, let alone a perfect stranger. You didn't tell us who published the book you had the signing for; odds are it was not PA.

My friend who runs a vintage bookstore was tickled to take the signed hardbound I gave her. I went in later and she was embarrased for me, pointing out that the book didn't have the title on the binding. If the jacket gets lost there isno way to identify the book if its in a book case. may as well be an empty binding of pages...

In closing the best defence; is not to need one!:Soapbox:*Nick* who are you?really... If you think PA is not deceptive then go into their website and take a look at page one of their authors gallery. The man shown there in that picture...is not the author of the book which he is holding. I sent an e-mail to the author who is givng the testimonial about "her" book and she admitts that PA didn't have a photo of her and used that one in its place. She has tried to get it corrected but to no avail. Their most recent posted testimonials were written in 2009...says a lot!

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

I've ignored all the name calling; sarcastic, demeaning and insulting remarks directed towards me; special honors to the person who shared the story about watching babies being shot, since they have nothing to do with me. Thanks to those who were kind. I've just said all there is to say and the swirling spiral of negativity here is boring and I can find no value in it. Everyone's reward or punishment in life is they must live in the world they have created for themselves. I try and move, not always successfully, towards the light. Some choose to move toward darkness. There is plenty of both. We all get to choose.

[Regan Leigh]

Nick, if you want to move towards the light... it's at the end of this thread. Just drop it already. You've made your points and others have made theirs.

Just sayin'.

*Even the lurkers are bored. ;)*

[kaitie]

Am I the baby killer? Lol, if so, I'm amused by the fact that the point of that was completely overlooked. Anyway, to each his own. Just don't assume that I'm someone who is overly negative. This is my way of protecting people from negativity and darkness--by helping them avoid potentially dream shattering mistakes. If that looks to you like I'm just a negative, pessimistic person or whatever (you should check out my other posts around here, and you would realize that this isn't the case at all), then so be it.

I make my choices every day, and those involve doing whatever I can to make the world a better place, even if the best I can offer is carrying my own shopping bag, recycling, smiling at someone who looks like they're having a bad day, or offering support to those who have been hurt and trying to help others from suffering the same fate. I'm sorry that you can't see this.

[Terie]

Nick, your flounces are boring and ineffective (and besides, you keep coming back). Here's some advice on how to do it properly:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61043

[Queen of Swords]

I've ignored all the name calling; sarcastic, demeaning and insulting remarks directed towards me

No, you haven't. You've noted those remarks, come up with adjectives about them and referred to them here.

Then again, even negative attention may be preferable to being ignored.

I've just said all there is to say and the swirling spiral of negativity here is boring and I can find no value in it.

If it was boring, Nick, you'd just leave.

I try and move, not always successfully, towards the light.

Like a moth flying into a flame?

[ctripp]

I did not want anyone to touch a word.

Nick, it's fairly clear that you just wanted a printing company, not a publisher. Thing is, you could have found one that did not tie you into a 7 year copyright contract and, depending on the number of books you ordered, as price goes down per hundred, and paid only half the cost per book. Then you could sell them, as you are perhaps trying to do now.
Also, try doing a search on a copyright free image site such as Jupiter. You will most likely find your cover there. PA does not have a design team, nor illustrators on staff, haha, they just use clip art (costs nothing) and fiddle around in photoshop for a few minutes to change some colour or delete a background.
You may not have been deluded into thinking you were doing anything other then having your words printed at a high cost but most of the authors on the PA forum DO believe they are now published authors and they buy into PA's index page, "We are a traditional publisher, we believe in paying our Authors". What crap!:)
As for people here feeling crushed? Well most posters have never printed their books with PA but even those that have seem to be over the crushed phase (though I am sure it still stings of course) and are into fighting Irish mode:)

[DaveKuzminski]

Nick, you've avoided answering one question that could affect your credibility on this site. Haven't you? I'm not asking for the long answer which would mean buying your book; just the short answer and you won't give it. So where does that leave people? Are they to assume that your words are true or not? What should they infer from your non-answer?

[DaveKuzminski]

Hey Alien Enigma! So how was 2009? Was it better and bigger or did your sales drop off?

[Gillhoughly]

Also, try doing a search on a copyright free image site such as Jupiter.

I think you may mean royalty-free images. ;)

Jupiter and Getty Images are good cover sources, but Istockphoto is much more reasonably priced.

[brianm]

I've just said all there is to say and the swirling spiral of negativity here is boring and I can find no value in it.

You have indeed said it all, Nick. You have concurred that PA does not edit, does not market or distribute, and derives their income from their authors. In other words, you have concurred she is a vanity press/author mill.

PA doesn’t edit, or promote or distribute or any of the other things you all are angry about. As I said I was a bit disappointed as well. I assumed that their enlightened self interest would cause them to try and get sales other than to me but evidently they have decided the cost benefit ratio for this function is not in their favor...

And that, my friend, is all that we are trying to get across in these threads.

If you or any other writer still chooses to go with PA knowing it is a vanity press/author mill, then so be it. As I said before, every writer has different goals for their writing and not everyone has what it takes, wants to put in the hard work, or has a commercially viable product to become commercially published.

You've been with PA for six years and I initially thought you had come to AW because you had seen the light or at least were beginning to see the light. But that's not it, is it?

You have a product that is small niche, you've probably tried the commercial route and been turned down, and because you don't have the funds to go the self-publishing route and because you can still call yourself a "published" author, you chose to stay with PA for your second book.

You know you have been vanity published and you accept all the errors and poor production of your book because you can still play the role of "published" author, because the majority of people you sell your book to won't realize you've been vanity published and you think that gives your words more credibility.

You're playing the role of published author, Nick, and many of PA's staunch supporters are playing the same role along with you, but the only people you are truly fooling are yourselves. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with playing this game, except when you and your fellow PAvadians cause a serious new writer to become ensnared in PA's vanity press net because of your support for PA.

That's what makes us angry and so long as you and your fellow PAvadians play this game and PA continues to cloak her true vanity press/author mill business model, we will continue to warn new writers to stay away from PA.

I try and move, not always successfully, towards the light. Some choose to move toward darkness. There is plenty of both. We all get to choose.

Next time you decide to tout your publisher, think about how your words can affect a new writer whose goals are towards commercial publication and instead of drawing them towards PA's vanity press darkness, be honest and let them know PA is a vanity press/author mill so that they can continue on their path towards commercial publication.

~brianm~

[Sepisllib]

I am disappointed, and boy was I wrong.

I voiced my opinion, earlier, that they, PA, folks were intelligent. Now I must retract that statement.

Attempting to be nice, up front, letters first to convey my decision to "not renew" either of my contracts were all met with contempt. Even e-mails from an un-named source stating they were Author Support Team advising I must communicate by e-mail and also the statements that my letters had been intercepted and failed to reach the intended recipient.

Two certified letters to this effect were sent both were picked up and signed for my an "AGENT" along with the confirmation by the e-mail that they opened one letter however the rest were discarded.

Now - today, I received my registered letter back. Returned as refused. This was a "registered" letter, "restricted delivery" to Mr. Clopper himself.

Number 1 ------ I know you, PA, are reading this and here is something to chew on for you ------ refusal of "that" letter is proof of delivery all by itself. Coupled with the numerous other verifiable attempts ------ no question.

Number 2 ------ Refusal of the registered letter is a "violation" of the contract --------- dispute that if you can.

There are several things I am thankful for, however, and among them is that I am a Christian (more than I can say for you guys at PA), and I can forgive you your criminal, unethical, morally deficient sins against the human race. Another is I can certainly be thankful that I am no longer a spiteful, revengeful and hateful person as if I were among that small violently prone group likely some days would be numbered - I am thankful I am not one of them. However, I will pray for you both - as I know, with the odds, that one day chances are you will encounter one of them. I pray to keep you safe at least long enough for you to soften your heart and listen to your maker.

In the meantime - you have shown your colors and contempt for your very lifeblood - the authors who have placed their deepest desires and dreams to you.

Thank you ---- for showing me how the upper levels of humans are still the bottom settlings of humanity. Thank you for showing us all how easily you can, and will, break the very contract you set forth and sign.

Anyone else want to add anything here?

The trials are now underway ------ Good Luck PA, and God Bless you and I shall continue to pray for you.

Bill

[Gillhoughly]

Dear Larry Clopper,

Please release me from my contract. I will not promote or buy copies of my book.

Additional delay only costs you money each time you refuse to accept a registered mail from me. All refusals go into my file on PA that I will take to my lawyer when we go to court over breach of contract.

Just cut me loose and you won't hear from me ever again.

Sincerely,


________


And in invisible ink you put:

PS, you stink and your mom dresses you funny.

[James D. Macdonald]

See, PA doesn't need to sell to anyone else but you because they know they can sell to you.


PublishAmerica accepts books that only the author's mother is likely to buy. Since there won't be any sales to strangers anyway, they don't waste time on trying (not that they'd know how in the first place). That's also why they charge prices that only the author's mother would pay.

It isn't that they don't need to, they can't. And they couldn't if you held a gun to their heads.

A guy came up to me at my book signing in Oklahoma yesterday. He said, "I will give you twenty bucks if you help me get published. Give me the secret information!"

I told him to give his twenty bucks to the poor kid in a wheelchair who was sitting nearby. The kid got excited and rolled away because he was bouncing up and down in it. He said, "Jeff, what is the secret?"

I referred him to Publish America.

Ah, the perfect PublishAmerica author! Desperate and naive.

PublishAmerica's promise: We'll publish your book even if it isn't ready.

[Gravity]

Well, at least Jeff didn't refer the wheechair-bound kid to PA ...

[Sepisllib]

Dear Larry Clopper,

Please release me from my contract. I will not promote or buy copies of my book.

Additional delay only costs you money each time you refuse to accept a registered mail from me. All refusals go into my file on PA that I will take to my lawyer when we go to court over breach of contract.

Just cut me loose and you won't hear from me ever again.

Sincerely,


________


And in invisible ink you put:

PS, you stink and your mom dresses you funny.

I have a short stack of letters labeled RTS (return to sender) containing very similar wording - if you want I could send them to anyone wishing to have a copy for themselves -----

I did discontinue sending them for a couple reasons - 1, I just keep getting them returned and 2, they,PA, started threatening me.

Their threats didn't bother me in the least, however, out of desire to not just waste my time and money on a stamp to send them I stopped.

However, if you wish .......

Now I stop though - there are much bigger fish that I wish to cast for and see which one ripples the surface of the water and which one decides to jump out and into the boat.

God Bless

Bill

[Gillhoughly]

If PA is threatening you, then report it to the cops and to the Maryland attorney general's office.

It is not harassment or stalking on your part if they refuse to reply to simple business mails. You are, in good faith, trying to cancel your contract and they are refusing to respond.

They once sent some joker over to a writer's house, pretending to be a cop. It would have been sweet had the writer called in a real cop to sort things out.

[Sepisllib]

I gave that a brief thought, mostly because I "am" a retired cop. That said, I am very aware of the process and likely outcome - so instead I am going to take a different direction that probably has not yet been taken.

After doing some reading on the various attempts to get that state AG to step up and do his job, all without any success at all, I can see that it is a waste of time.

My next steps will take some time for things to develop, however much more serious and all with out making any accusations of any type.

God Bless

Bill

[Don Davidson]

If PA is threatening you, then report it to the cops and to the Maryland attorney general's office.

Only if PA is threatening to do something unlawful. It is not unlawful to "threaten" to take some type of lawful action, such as file a lawsuit or "consider all legal remedies available to us."

[Gillhoughly]

An empty threat, then. They'd never spend the money.

It's cheaper to cut loose one complaining writer than to pay a lawyer to do an hour's work for them.

[ctripp]

I think you may mean royalty-free images.

ACK, yes Gill, that's what I meant, how embarrasing:)

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

Nick, if you want to move towards the light... it's at the end of this thread. Just drop it already. You've made your points and others have made theirs.

Just sayin'.

*Even the lurkers are bored. ;)*

You're right. Thanks for the wise advice.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

You have indeed said it all, Nick. You have concurred that PA does not edit, does not market or distribute, and derives their income from their authors. In other words, you have concurred she is a vanity press/author mill.



And that, my friend, is all that we are trying to get across in these threads.

If you or any other writer still chooses to go with PA knowing it is a vanity press/author mill, then so be it. As I said before, every writer has different goals for their writing and not everyone has what it takes, wants to put in the hard work, or has a commercially viable product to become commercially published.

You've been with PA for six years and I initially thought you had come to AW because you had seen the light or at least were beginning to see the light. But that's not it, is it?

You have a product that is small niche, you've probably tried the commercial route and been turned down, and because you don't have the funds to go the self-publishing route and because you can still call yourself a "published" author, you chose to stay with PA for your second book.

You know you have been vanity published and you accept all the errors and poor production of your book because you can still play the role of "published" author, because the majority of people you sell your book to won't realize you've been vanity published and you think that gives your words more credibility.

You're playing the role of published author, Nick, and many of PA's staunch supporters are playing the same role along with you, but the only people you are truly fooling are yourselves. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with playing this game, except when you and your fellow PAvadians cause a serious new writer to become ensnared in PA's vanity press net because of your support for PA.

That's what makes us angry and so long as you and your fellow PAvadians play this game and PA continues to cloak her true vanity press/author mill business model, we will continue to warn new writers to stay away from PA.



Next time you decide to tout your publisher, think about how your words can affect a new writer whose goals are towards commercial publication and instead of drawing them towards PA's vanity press darkness, be honest and let them know PA is a vanity press/author mill so that they can continue on their path towards commercial publication.

~brianm~
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nothing you’ve written here regarding me is accurate. I’m not surprised, after being shouted down ad hominem by group think bullies for interrupting the pity party with a differing opinion, that you’d think everyone is trying to get where you are trying to go. Your ambition is obvious. I myself am not an ambitious man; I don’t believe in ambition nor do I trust it. Yet I have been successful at everything I’ve ever done, excerpt maybe for women. Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Every time I put down a word or think about it I am where I want to be. I’m not trying to get anywhere. I’m already there.

[Cyia]

Okay, where'd we put the Troll-Be-Gone?

[Jersey Chick]

I think it might have rolled under the couch.

[JimmyD1318]

Okay, where'd we put the Troll-Be-Gone?

Delurks. I agree. Hi all. Relurks.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Is this flounce attempt #2 or 3?

[BenPanced]

:rolleyes :troll :deadhorse

I've lost count.

[DreamWeaver]

Okay, where'd we put the Troll-Be-Gone? I think it might have rolled under the couch.Well, I'm not crawling under there to get it. There's grotty old failed queries, cobwebby partial MSS, and the worst are the ever-expanding litters of near-identical stock-image book covers swinging fake katanas and yelling, "There can be only one!" at the top of their tiny little typefaces.

But someone needs to get it.

[Queen of Swords]

Hey Jimmy, how's it going?

[JimmyD1318]

Hey Jimmy, how's it going?

It's going fine beautiful Queen of the Internet. Just had a short story picked up. I lurk here mostly, but I feel the need to say this. Nick...you've made your point. Others have made thier's. This is not going to change. Now...it's back to my POPCORN patch. Anybody want any before I go? :popcorn:

[brianm]

Nothing you’ve written here regarding me is accurate.

I recommend you go back and read your posts, Nick.

I’m not surprised, after being shouted down ad hominem by group think bullies

Come on, Nick, you’ve been with PA long enough to know we are referred to as a nasty group of toady bugs. At least get your terminology correct.

for interrupting the pity party…

Nah, it’s not a party until JimmyD passes out popcorn.

~brianm~

[bhall87]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nothing you’ve written here regarding me is accurate. I’m not surprised, after being shouted down ad hominem by group think bullies for interrupting the pity party with a differing opinion, that you’d think everyone is trying to get where you are trying to go. Your ambition is obvious. I myself am not an ambitious man; I don’t believe in ambition nor do I trust it. Yet I have been successful at everything I’ve ever done, excerpt maybe for women. Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Every time I put down a word or think about it I am where I want to be. I’m not trying to get anywhere. I’m already there.

Not to feed the troll or anything but I'm pretty sure it takes ambition to write a book, submit it to a publisher (or even PA), or to start a business or to be successful in everything you do.

All right, back to my shadowy cave.

[BenPanced]

I recommend you go back and read your posts, Nick.



Come on, Nick, you’ve been with PA long enough to know we are referred to as a nasty group of toady bugs. At least get your terminology correct.



Nah, it’s not a party until JimmyD passes out popcorn.

~brianm~
Or he passes out, whichever happens first...:partyguy:

[Jersey Chick]

Then we just roll him out of the way. He fits very nicely under the couch, too.

[Regan Leigh]

*dies from boredom*

Seriously. There's old and then there's beating a dead horse... and PETA is SOOO going to find this thread when flies surround the hundreds of dead horses.


Now where is that popcorn?

[Sepisllib]

*dies from boredom*

Seriously. There's old and then there's beating a dead horse... and PETA is SOOO going to find this thread when flies surround the hundreds of dead horses.


Now where is that popcorn?

And there shall be a time when "evil is called good & good is called evil." Are we not there now?

God Bless

Bill

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I’m not surprised, after being shouted down ad hominem by group think bullies for interrupting the pity party with a differing opinion, that you’d think everyone is trying to get where you are trying to go.

You've not been shouted down, Nick. You've had your opinions of PA revealed to be groundless and unsupported by logic.

Your claim that this thread is a "pity party" is laughable and goes to show that - yet again - you haven't done your research.

A pity party is what happens on the PA boards when authors realise that their hopes and dreams have been crushed. Mind you, you may not be aware of that given that PA likes to send those posts over to the cornfield in case they lower morale or lead more customers, sorry, authors, to ask questions they should have asked sooner.

And all of this leads to my repeating the question of just why are you here? You've flounced off twice already but still keep on posting. I guess you just can't quit us, huh?

Nick Masesso Jr.:
I myself am not an ambitious man; I don’t believe in ambition nor do I trust it. Yet I have been successful at everything I’ve ever done, excerpt maybe for women.

You might not believe in ambition but you sure do like to tell us how gosh darn successful you are.

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Every time I put down a word or think about it I am where I want to be. I’m not trying to get anywhere. I’m already there.

I don't think you'd know where you are if someone gave you a pop-up map and a "you are here" arrow.

Are you a writer? Yes in the sense that you write.

Are you an author? Only if by "author" you mean "vanity published".

MM

[JimmyD1318]

Now where is that popcorn?

Ask and ye shall receive. :popcorn: :popcorn: There you go. Enjoy!

[DaveKuzminski]

So Nick, what were you in prison for? Was it for fraud?

[Gillhoughly]

Everyone take a chill pill. You're scaring the other PA victims writers who lurk here.

We're the good guys. We can disagree without being unpleasant, even if we feel provoked.

[ChristineR]

Nick, I can understand why you feel so overwhelmed, but I think people have a point. Can you express why you didn't go with Lulu or Createspace?

Both of those options might cost more upfront if you wanted certain services. For example, PA provides a nominal edit, but Lulu charges. But you said you didn't want the edit, and PA has charged people to correct errors in their proofs, even errors PA introduced.

There's cover design, but Lulu and Createspace have do-it-yourself cover applets that would get you something close to what PA did, and with more control over what goes on the cover.

In any case, the costs of Lulu or Createspace would quickly be made up by the much lower cover prices of the final product. There are a few cases where PA might beat the others, but even in those cases the poor customer service would scare me away.

[circlexranch]

What Gil said . . .

Now, pass the popcorn!

[Elisabeth Bruce]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nothing you’ve written here regarding me is accurate. I’m not surprised, after being shouted down ad hominem by group think bullies for interrupting the pity party with a differing opinion, that you’d think everyone is trying to get where you are trying to go. Your ambition is obvious. I myself am not an ambitious man; I don’t believe in ambition nor do I trust it. Yet I have been successful at everything I’ve ever done, excerpt maybe for women. Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal. Every time I put down a word or think about it I am where I want to be. I’m not trying to get anywhere. I’m already there.

Nick, I 'lurk' constantly on this PA thread. I watch everything PA on this site and others. I'm waiting for the day PA dies, and I hope it goes down with 'all hands'.

My friend thought she was with a legitimate publishing company because "only real Publishing Companies issue Advances." That is what she understood and at the time, I did also.

Over a period of a year, and many, many dollars later, she realised she had been duped. She was an intelligent, sensitive woman who tried to make sense of her past life through writing.

They took more than her money, they took her self-respect and wrecked her self-confidence. They taught her to recognise that she was a spectacular failure.

No matter how hard I tried to support her, it wasn't enough. She quit on May 5th 2009.

*******
Nick, if you're already there, then WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I know why I'm here, I'm waiting to dance on their grave.

Elisabeth.

[Nick Masesso Jr.]

So Nick, what were you in prison for? Was it for fraud?

Somewhere I read this forum didn’t denigrate others with personal attacks on motives, ethics or morals; let alone identity. Accordingly, you’ll find the classic definition of that nasty little word you covet by investing in a mirror. Similarly ironic; those clever with a malicious affront unable to decipher the worlds shortest, most clearly written and plainly spoken publishing contract.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

Does anyone else see the ice cracking?

[merrihiatt]

Somewhere I read this forum didn’t denigrate others with personal attacks on motives, ethics or morals; let alone identity.

I believe the number one rule here at AW is respect your fellow writer. That applies to everyone who posts here.

[kaitie]

Somewhere I read this forum didn’t denigrate others with personal attacks on motives, ethics or morals; let alone identity. Accordingly, you’ll find the classic definition of that nasty little word you covet by investing in a mirror. Similarly ironic; those clever with a malicious affront unable to decipher the worlds shortest, most clearly written and plainly spoken publishing contract.

I don't think he was trying to imply you were in jail for fraud at all. In fact, what I saw was someone who was trying to point out that chances were, based on what you said, you had been arrested for activism or something of that sort, not fraud, which is what Miranda was accused of.

I certainly didn't read it as a personal attack. You had stated that having been in jail didn't matter. We were trying to say it really depends on what you're in for. Being arrested for being present at a protest or handcuffing yourself to a building, for instance, is a lot different than the sort of things this woman has been found guilty of.

Also, I'm not really sure what most of this means.

[Momento Mori]

Nick Masesso Jr.:
Similarly ironic; those clever with a malicious affront unable to decipher the worlds shortest, most clearly written and plainly spoken publishing contract.

If it's so short, so clearly written and so plainly spoken, Nick, why didn't you understand it before you signed it?

MM