Publish America has a particular business model that does not include providing for the most expensive part of selling something, marketing. This does not make them a scam. I published with them 5 and 1/2 years ago and I've just sent them another book which they've accepted. They made a few minor errors in the text even after I corrected it but this hardly makes them a scam. I'm reading Carver and there are typos there as well. I didn't sell any books but how is that their fault? I sent them an outline for a book a few years back and they rejected it which was the right move since it wasn't ready. The idea that they would not want to promote a book when they have such a huge incentive; getting the lions share of the revenue, doesnt make sence on the face of it. Perhaps they just don't generate enough revenue to support a marketing effort. If I had enough confidence in my book being commercially viable I'd hire a publicist or hire a company that is full service which starts by the way at $12,000.00. See BookPros.
PublishAmerica is not a scam
- Thread starter Nick Masesso Jr.
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Nick M Jr, can you tell us why you didn't send your book to a commercial press that does provide for marketing at its own expense?
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Welcome to AW Nick! 
Indeed. It is not marketing but called distribution--which is what gets books into stores across the US an Canada. Without distribution to brick and mortar stores there are no significant book sales for the writer.
The stores want the right to return unsold books, which is significant money to any publisher. PA is unwilling to provide that to its writers, therefore, no sales.
But amateurish and sloppy. Should any of my commercial publishers put errors in my books I immediately notify my editors and they are quick to remove them--at no cost to the writer. PA charges writers a 99.00 fee to correct errors they put in, giving them a decided motivation to continue the sloppiness.
See the above comment about lack of real distribution. Having your book listed online is not distribution. People can't find it if they don't know it exists, and most people look for new reading material in bookstores. I find all my new books there, then buy them online if I can find a discount at B&N.
It does once you see they make the lion's share of profit selling books back to the writers. It costs them about 3.00 to produce a book. How much do they charge the writers (+ 3.99 postage for EACH one mailed) per book? Even with their frequent "discounts" it is still much higher priced than comparable titles in the stores.
I would love to have a look at their books. They're raking in plenty of money from their writers buying their own books, not from selling books to the general public. It's no secret that Willie Meiners, who started PA, was able to afford a helicopter, bought a huge house, and was even boasting that yachts were surprisingly affordable.
Discounting writer-bought books, it has been estimated that in TEN years they've sold only about 5000 copies of their titles to the general public. There's post on that here in the PA forum, I just don't have the time to search it out. Perhaps another member has it bookmarked?
One of my title--a trade paperback--sold about 15,000 copies last year in a 6-month period. That's ONE book, six month period, from a real publisher with real distribution.
The first rule for a commercial writer is never violate Yog's Law.
For one thing, your average advance for a book by a debut author will only get a low 4-figure. Spending 12 thousand dollars to promote a book that gets only a 2000.00 advance is terrible business! Run away from BookPros--they are NOT your friend! They are one of thousands of publishing related businesses who try to get money out of writers. Start checking out the blogs of Writer Beware and learn more about the sharks that want to prey on us--if we let them!
Show Me the Money <-- average advances for commercial romance fiction. You can extrapolate that into other genres.
New writers promote just fine without blowing 12 grand on a publicity. They do it for FREE. You can set up a website for free, have free email, free blogs, free Facebook and MySpace pages--all things that professional writers do as a matter of course.
My first book snagged me just over 2000.00 for an advance. (I had a 6-book contract). What "sold" it to the public were reviews in magazines, in papers, and the fact that it was in bookstores across the country--oh, and the writing was pretty good, too.
It and the rest of the series paid out its advance in just a few years and began earning royalties. Had I hired a publicist, I'd have been out of pocket on that money and might never have gotten it back.
One thing you should be aware of is that the advance is how much the publisher thinks they can make on your book. PA's one-dollar advance is the (bad) joke of the whole industry and is a big red warning sign to all to run away.
I hope you'll consider our ongoing concerns about PA with an open mind.
I hope you'll be able to break away from them and sell something to a legit commercial publisher. If nothing else, then self-publishing via CreateSpace or Lulu is better for you. You have full control over your work, can set the price, and not have the shadow of PA--and their sloppy bookkeeping and bad reputation--looming over you.
PA calling itself "traditional" is another bad joke. "Traditionally" in publishing a writer had to find a rich patron to pay to get a book out. Since most PA writers do buy at least one copy of their own work, PA is keeping vanity publishing alive and well. The costs are at the back, though, not up front.
As for boosting your confidence as a writer, I invite you to check out AW's "Share Your Work" forums. There are many friendly, positive writers here who would be more than willing to help with constructive feedback. Who knows, you may be a genius and PA is just holding you back!
Indeed. It is not marketing but called distribution--which is what gets books into stores across the US an Canada. Without distribution to brick and mortar stores there are no significant book sales for the writer.
The stores want the right to return unsold books, which is significant money to any publisher. PA is unwilling to provide that to its writers, therefore, no sales.
But amateurish and sloppy. Should any of my commercial publishers put errors in my books I immediately notify my editors and they are quick to remove them--at no cost to the writer. PA charges writers a 99.00 fee to correct errors they put in, giving them a decided motivation to continue the sloppiness.
See the above comment about lack of real distribution. Having your book listed online is not distribution. People can't find it if they don't know it exists, and most people look for new reading material in bookstores. I find all my new books there, then buy them online if I can find a discount at B&N.
It does once you see they make the lion's share of profit selling books back to the writers. It costs them about 3.00 to produce a book. How much do they charge the writers (+ 3.99 postage for EACH one mailed) per book? Even with their frequent "discounts" it is still much higher priced than comparable titles in the stores.
I would love to have a look at their books. They're raking in plenty of money from their writers buying their own books, not from selling books to the general public. It's no secret that Willie Meiners, who started PA, was able to afford a helicopter, bought a huge house, and was even boasting that yachts were surprisingly affordable.
Discounting writer-bought books, it has been estimated that in TEN years they've sold only about 5000 copies of their titles to the general public. There's post on that here in the PA forum, I just don't have the time to search it out. Perhaps another member has it bookmarked?
One of my title--a trade paperback--sold about 15,000 copies last year in a 6-month period. That's ONE book, six month period, from a real publisher with real distribution.
The first rule for a commercial writer is never violate Yog's Law.
For one thing, your average advance for a book by a debut author will only get a low 4-figure. Spending 12 thousand dollars to promote a book that gets only a 2000.00 advance is terrible business! Run away from BookPros--they are NOT your friend! They are one of thousands of publishing related businesses who try to get money out of writers. Start checking out the blogs of Writer Beware and learn more about the sharks that want to prey on us--if we let them!
Show Me the Money <-- average advances for commercial romance fiction. You can extrapolate that into other genres.
New writers promote just fine without blowing 12 grand on a publicity. They do it for FREE. You can set up a website for free, have free email, free blogs, free Facebook and MySpace pages--all things that professional writers do as a matter of course.
My first book snagged me just over 2000.00 for an advance. (I had a 6-book contract). What "sold" it to the public were reviews in magazines, in papers, and the fact that it was in bookstores across the country--oh, and the writing was pretty good, too.
It and the rest of the series paid out its advance in just a few years and began earning royalties. Had I hired a publicist, I'd have been out of pocket on that money and might never have gotten it back.One thing you should be aware of is that the advance is how much the publisher thinks they can make on your book. PA's one-dollar advance is the (bad) joke of the whole industry and is a big red warning sign to all to run away.
I hope you'll consider our ongoing concerns about PA with an open mind.
I hope you'll be able to break away from them and sell something to a legit commercial publisher. If nothing else, then self-publishing via CreateSpace or Lulu is better for you. You have full control over your work, can set the price, and not have the shadow of PA--and their sloppy bookkeeping and bad reputation--looming over you.
PA calling itself "traditional" is another bad joke. "Traditionally" in publishing a writer had to find a rich patron to pay to get a book out. Since most PA writers do buy at least one copy of their own work, PA is keeping vanity publishing alive and well. The costs are at the back, though, not up front.
As for boosting your confidence as a writer, I invite you to check out AW's "Share Your Work" forums. There are many friendly, positive writers here who would be more than willing to help with constructive feedback. Who knows, you may be a genius and PA is just holding you back!
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Hey, hey, hey!
A famous quote from my friend Gomer Pyle!
Perhaps Nick, being on the payroll is satisfied with his royalty checks, congrats!
I just finished my last and final letter to Mr Clopper, listing 15 breaches of contract Item 11, naming several concerning the 1099-misc errors, breach of item 29 concerning sending certified registered mail which was returned unsigned for, and in doing so breach of item 1 which specifies that I must send them a CRR letter of my intentions not to extend my contract for another 7 years.
I'm puzzled by the postings about "first right of refusal" in a contract item 28. My contract, signed in Jan 2008 has no such mention of future works.
I have downloaded the complaint form and filled it out to send the Maryland AG my complaint. I'll wait to see what they do with this latest CRR letter.
My latest e-mail from PA anouncing that I qualify to bid (yes bid) on a space at their (2) booths at the expo. I did verify that they have at least one booth #4848 and have now quieried about their claims of a second booth. I'll let you know how that turns out.
I'm curious how they plan to display the books of 200 authors, yep 200 per the e-mail I have in hand, in a 10 x 10 booth? Let alone have room for author signings and displays...duh I'd rather attempt that feat on the New York subway.
I may just endeavor to go to the expo, money is the problem...we'll see. If I go I'll see if I can get a permit to picket the PA booth, anyone care to join me? A better idea is to screen my own tee's and give them away...
That's the jest of it for a while. My Fantasy Fiction got some good news Saturday. A local DJ has agreed to read the book and possibly ask her reading club to be my beta readers. This boosted my spirits and I'm excited at the prospect. Don't worry TJ, I haven't forgotten you or Sandy!
This forum has been very...calming for me. My frutration with PA has leveled off. Spring is here...heck I might just walk to the expo wearing a sandwich sign and give PA a little free press.
By now I guess Willem has reach his destination; a country with no extridition (sp?)Choppers are probably out of fuel, but he has his fat Caymen account to tide him over...
Sorry nick, had to twist the knife. As I stated several times, authors willing to do "all of the work" can wait for their e-mail specials and get their books for $5. For me its still a matter of principle. You don't have to worry about shoddy accounting and incorrect 1099's if you're doing all of the work; but at the same time PA is using you and your book to "con" other authors. The words "fraud", "scam", and "con" only speak to the lack of truth and the intentional deceit that is implied by the words "in brick and mortar bookstores from sea to shinning sea" and "we send, on an average of 125 press releases every day; thats 4 every minute, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week". Think what you may, this is a free country, but to me that is an implied verbal contract to promote my book. I went to all of my local libraries and not one of them has ever received anything from PA announcing the publication of new books, either electronically or in hard copy. These people firmly stated that it is through these releases that they determine what new books to review and possibly stock. They pay very little attention to flyers, calling cards and other promo literature placed by an author in the information area of the library. I donated (3) soft covers and (3) hardcover books to my local library. This is the only reason it is on the shelves; not because of PA non-promotion of my book.
I'm done...
A famous quote from my friend Gomer Pyle!
Perhaps Nick, being on the payroll is satisfied with his royalty checks, congrats!
I just finished my last and final letter to Mr Clopper, listing 15 breaches of contract Item 11, naming several concerning the 1099-misc errors, breach of item 29 concerning sending certified registered mail which was returned unsigned for, and in doing so breach of item 1 which specifies that I must send them a CRR letter of my intentions not to extend my contract for another 7 years.
I'm puzzled by the postings about "first right of refusal" in a contract item 28. My contract, signed in Jan 2008 has no such mention of future works.
I have downloaded the complaint form and filled it out to send the Maryland AG my complaint. I'll wait to see what they do with this latest CRR letter.
My latest e-mail from PA anouncing that I qualify to bid (yes bid) on a space at their (2) booths at the expo. I did verify that they have at least one booth #4848 and have now quieried about their claims of a second booth. I'll let you know how that turns out.
I'm curious how they plan to display the books of 200 authors, yep 200 per the e-mail I have in hand, in a 10 x 10 booth? Let alone have room for author signings and displays...duh I'd rather attempt that feat on the New York subway.
I may just endeavor to go to the expo, money is the problem...we'll see. If I go I'll see if I can get a permit to picket the PA booth, anyone care to join me? A better idea is to screen my own tee's and give them away...
That's the jest of it for a while. My Fantasy Fiction got some good news Saturday. A local DJ has agreed to read the book and possibly ask her reading club to be my beta readers. This boosted my spirits and I'm excited at the prospect. Don't worry TJ, I haven't forgotten you or Sandy!
This forum has been very...calming for me. My frutration with PA has leveled off. Spring is here...heck I might just walk to the expo wearing a sandwich sign and give PA a little free press.
By now I guess Willem has reach his destination; a country with no extridition (sp?)Choppers are probably out of fuel, but he has his fat Caymen account to tide him over...
Sorry nick, had to twist the knife. As I stated several times, authors willing to do "all of the work" can wait for their e-mail specials and get their books for $5. For me its still a matter of principle. You don't have to worry about shoddy accounting and incorrect 1099's if you're doing all of the work; but at the same time PA is using you and your book to "con" other authors. The words "fraud", "scam", and "con" only speak to the lack of truth and the intentional deceit that is implied by the words "in brick and mortar bookstores from sea to shinning sea" and "we send, on an average of 125 press releases every day; thats 4 every minute, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week". Think what you may, this is a free country, but to me that is an implied verbal contract to promote my book. I went to all of my local libraries and not one of them has ever received anything from PA announcing the publication of new books, either electronically or in hard copy. These people firmly stated that it is through these releases that they determine what new books to review and possibly stock. They pay very little attention to flyers, calling cards and other promo literature placed by an author in the information area of the library. I donated (3) soft covers and (3) hardcover books to my local library. This is the only reason it is on the shelves; not because of PA non-promotion of my book.
I'm done...
Welcome To AW Nick!
I had an ebook pubbed through a reputable small press. It went through three rounds of editing, including excruciating copy editing. I got to approve every change, down to the last comma. I got to choose the cover from the galleries of three different staff artists and then ask the cover be modified to more represent my character. I had my own private forum to have one-on-one chats with the different editors and artists. When there was a dispute between myself and a copyeditor over a phrase, a staff editor settled it (in my favor). My little tale was available through all the ebook distributors, including FictionWise. I was never told to expect to be available 'in bookstores from sea to shining sea'.
It sold for $2.95 and my royalty take per copy was equal to that of a $16.95 PA book. I was treated with respect from day one and never told to watch my tone.
During the TWO year contract, my financial outlay was ZERO dollars. My financial intake was low three figures. This was for a 5K word short story ebook.
PA takes dreams and turns them into fuel for the hell-o-copter. They are beneath contempt.
This little epub shuttered after several years for non-financial reasons (health of one of the principals if I remember correctly). That was a sad day because it was a 100% positive experience and I NEVER had to make excuses for them.
I had an ebook pubbed through a reputable small press. It went through three rounds of editing, including excruciating copy editing. I got to approve every change, down to the last comma. I got to choose the cover from the galleries of three different staff artists and then ask the cover be modified to more represent my character. I had my own private forum to have one-on-one chats with the different editors and artists. When there was a dispute between myself and a copyeditor over a phrase, a staff editor settled it (in my favor). My little tale was available through all the ebook distributors, including FictionWise. I was never told to expect to be available 'in bookstores from sea to shining sea'.
It sold for $2.95 and my royalty take per copy was equal to that of a $16.95 PA book. I was treated with respect from day one and never told to watch my tone.
During the TWO year contract, my financial outlay was ZERO dollars. My financial intake was low three figures. This was for a 5K word short story ebook.
PA takes dreams and turns them into fuel for the hell-o-copter. They are beneath contempt.
This little epub shuttered after several years for non-financial reasons (health of one of the principals if I remember correctly). That was a sad day because it was a 100% positive experience and I NEVER had to make excuses for them.
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Suppose they go out of business. (We can but hope.)
What happens to the 40,000 writers and all the books tied up in contracts? I don't see PA releasing any of them without sending out "have a chance to buy your book's rights back" e-mail. We're all very aware they don't miss a trick if they can figure a way to get money out of the writer.
One of my friends had a manuscript in limbo for years when a small press she was with went bankrupt. When she did get it back, she'd lost all heart to sell it, having moved on. It's too bad--the book was the third in a trilogy. The fans of that series never got to see how it ended!
Considering PA's shoddy bookkeeping, it would be a nightmare for the poor writers!
Nick, PA makes $24 million a year. A year. On authors buying their own books mostly.
Miranda and Larry do have the money for marketing. They just don't give a crap about their authors to actually invest in it.
PA is a scam because they lure in authors under the false pretense that those authors will be published like someone at the many legitimate commercial publishers both big and small. They won't. And they never will with PA. The business model that's worked so well is 'sell the book back to the author'. If that's what you're happy with, then by all means enjoy. But that's not publishing at all.
Miranda and Larry do have the money for marketing. They just don't give a crap about their authors to actually invest in it.
PA is a scam because they lure in authors under the false pretense that those authors will be published like someone at the many legitimate commercial publishers both big and small. They won't. And they never will with PA. The business model that's worked so well is 'sell the book back to the author'. If that's what you're happy with, then by all means enjoy. But that's not publishing at all.
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Mr. Masseso: I was going to ask why you didn't stay with Vagabondage Press until I looked at their submission page and say this zinger:
For those of you who don't know, that means your entire natural life and 70 years after you meet your maker. It is essentially a complete assignment of copyright. No thank ya!
(emphasis added)
For those of you who don't know, that means your entire natural life and 70 years after you meet your maker. It is essentially a complete assignment of copyright. No thank ya!
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Aside from the lack of confidence, you've got another problem. You don't "hire" a publisher. It's not a business like plumbing where you can search the yellow pages and find someone you think sounds good. There's a bar to meet and most people who write a book can't meet that bar.
I'm not saying that to discourage you, but to tell you the cold facts of it. 99% of the books pitched are NOT something that's commercially viable. Either they're poorly written, poorly executed, not appealing to the general public, or rehashes of things already out there. Just like 99% of people who play sports couldn't cut it in the pros and 99% of people who like to sing couldn't get past the line at American Idol.
Most of that same 99% are put out there by people who "know" they've got the next [insert name of best seller] on their hands.
Real, commercial, writers DON'T hand money over for the "privilege" of being published. It's not a privilege - it's a business transaction. Publishers take a risk on each title the buy the right to publish. If they don't put that initial money into the project, then they have no incentive to make the book anything more than stapled pages. If the company you trust with your book isn't willing to take a chance on it (and NOTHING about PA's model involves the publisher risking anything on the book besides that initial $1), then they're not worth your time. They certainly aren't worth the book you put that time into.
I'm just curious - you mentioned that you didn't sell any books the first time. Do you expect to sell any books now?
Responce to: "why you didn't send your book to a commercial press"
I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either. I write to dispel the beast. I'm going to write regardless. If someone wants to publish my journals for free I'm grateful. I don't consider what I do a commercial venture rather artistic expression. I hope that PA makes a killing on my "work". If they do I suspect the karma will flow back to me eventually. I have no interest in writing so someone else will enjoy it and the idea of self-promotion doesn't sit well with me either. Its seems a bit narcissistic and I just don't have the stomach for it. Further, I could no more join an writers group and share my words than I could have sex in public. Writing for me is, for lack of a better term; spiritual. I don't need any sort of reinforcement. I don't lack confidence; quite the contrary. I know what I write is good, great even. In any case; it makes me feel good and feeling good is good enough.
I'm not writing in order to sell books and frankly I don't expect to either. I write to dispel the beast. I'm going to write regardless. If someone wants to publish my journals for free I'm grateful. I don't consider what I do a commercial venture rather artistic expression. I hope that PA makes a killing on my "work". If they do I suspect the karma will flow back to me eventually. I have no interest in writing so someone else will enjoy it and the idea of self-promotion doesn't sit well with me either. Its seems a bit narcissistic and I just don't have the stomach for it. Further, I could no more join an writers group and share my words than I could have sex in public. Writing for me is, for lack of a better term; spiritual. I don't need any sort of reinforcement. I don't lack confidence; quite the contrary. I know what I write is good, great even. In any case; it makes me feel good and feeling good is good enough.
The only 'killing' PA will make on your work is from the copies you buy yourself.
If writing is your passion, don't waste it on the likes of PA.
Use Lulu.com instead.
Good luck.
If writing is your passion, don't waste it on the likes of PA.
Use Lulu.com instead.
Good luck.
But then why publish the book and offer it for sale? You've already accepted a dollar for what you don't consider a commercial venture.
How will PA do that without distribution and marketing to bookstores and readers?
Why did you publish at all, then, if you have no desire to be read?
Why did you join our writer's group if you can't join one?
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That's my question as well. If the only reason is to do some self-expression and enjoy the art of it, then why bother to have it published? You clearly sent it to PA in order to have it published and put it out there. What would be the point of doing so if you didn't intend to have anyone read it? There's no rule that says everything written has to be published. I've written a couple of stories that will never see the light of day because I never intended them as anything but something fun to play with while I was learning my skills.
I also don't understand how you can't share your work with a writing group, but you would put it with a publisher in order to be potentially viewed by the rest of the world. I guess I'm just not getting the logic. As I see it, showing your work to a writing group might be like having sex under the covers with a couple of other people in the room, but having it published and put for sale anywhere (even by a group as inept as PA) would be much more like going on stage during the New Year's Eve event at Time Square and having sex in front of everyone there and the entire viewing audience of the US, wouldn't it?
I also don't understand how you can't share your work with a writing group, but you would put it with a publisher in order to be potentially viewed by the rest of the world. I guess I'm just not getting the logic. As I see it, showing your work to a writing group might be like having sex under the covers with a couple of other people in the room, but having it published and put for sale anywhere (even by a group as inept as PA) would be much more like going on stage during the New Year's Eve event at Time Square and having sex in front of everyone there and the entire viewing audience of the US, wouldn't it?
Responce to various posts
I didn’t realize I’d joined a writers group. I was just expressing an opinion since I felt all the posts were skewed toward a viewpoint that I saw as unfair. I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m not emotionally involved. If they can make money selling books back to authors, where’s the crime in that was my point. I didn’t say I wouldn’t appreciate being read. I said I don’t write with readers in mind. The math on this transaction between PA and me is pretty simple. They have provided me a service I judged beneficial. I don’t have any particular motive. My books are available pretty much world wide for no fee to me and I judged that to be a good deal. I didn’t expect to make money or be on Oprah. If they are in fact making 24 million a year you’d think they’d want to put some of that into promotion but that’s their call. It’s got nothing to do with me. I’m the artist in this equation and they are the business guys. We are all free to create a business model that goes further and includes marketing if we believe that will be successful. I write; it’s got nothing to do with commerce. My writing is my gift to the world. It’s not some exercise that I would share with others in an intimate setting to be analyzed and deconstructed. I can’t read most of what I write without crying, that’s when I know its good, so I won’t be doing any readings. In Woody Allen’s film, Vicky Christina Barcelona, wherein he explores the vagaries of love, the old Spanish poet refuses to share his beautifully written sentences with the world because he says; “after thousands of years of civilization, it has not learned how to love”. If everyone took the old poets path we’d have no Shakespeare, Picasso or Altman. I write and publish, such as it is, for the same reason Dostoyevsky did; because I exist.
I didn’t realize I’d joined a writers group. I was just expressing an opinion since I felt all the posts were skewed toward a viewpoint that I saw as unfair. I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m not emotionally involved. If they can make money selling books back to authors, where’s the crime in that was my point. I didn’t say I wouldn’t appreciate being read. I said I don’t write with readers in mind. The math on this transaction between PA and me is pretty simple. They have provided me a service I judged beneficial. I don’t have any particular motive. My books are available pretty much world wide for no fee to me and I judged that to be a good deal. I didn’t expect to make money or be on Oprah. If they are in fact making 24 million a year you’d think they’d want to put some of that into promotion but that’s their call. It’s got nothing to do with me. I’m the artist in this equation and they are the business guys. We are all free to create a business model that goes further and includes marketing if we believe that will be successful. I write; it’s got nothing to do with commerce. My writing is my gift to the world. It’s not some exercise that I would share with others in an intimate setting to be analyzed and deconstructed. I can’t read most of what I write without crying, that’s when I know its good, so I won’t be doing any readings. In Woody Allen’s film, Vicky Christina Barcelona, wherein he explores the vagaries of love, the old Spanish poet refuses to share his beautifully written sentences with the world because he says; “after thousands of years of civilization, it has not learned how to love”. If everyone took the old poets path we’d have no Shakespeare, Picasso or Altman. I write and publish, such as it is, for the same reason Dostoyevsky did; because I exist.
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There's no crime it that at all. The issue is that they aren't upfront about that fact. They claim to be a 'traditional publisher' (a term, BTW, that PA made up to deceive their potential customers about their services) and that what they offer is exactly the same as what any commercial publisher offers. But the service they provide is nothing remotely like what commercial publishers do.
Most of us here would be quite happy if PA would simply be honest about what they are: a vanity press that charges its customers on the back-end instead of the front-end. Until they do that, as long as they continue their current deceptive practices, we'll be here to try to steer writers looking for a real publishing deal clear.
There are some people for whom PA's business model is perfect; it sounds like you're one of those people, and that's great for you. (I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.)
But most of their customers are looking for something else, and we're here to help educate as many of those people as we can to prevent them from being sucked into something that won't actually accomplish their goals.
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The crime is in the dishonesty. There are plenty of other companies that make money by selling to the authors and the author's family and friends. The difference is that those companies are up front. They aren't stating everywhere one possibly looks that they are a "traditional" commercial publisher.
There are other companies that sell almost exclusively on the web and are up front about that, without making deceptive claims about being available in bookstores from coast to coast.
There are other companies that charge fees, but that do so upfront (and others like Lulu that can be used for free). PA says all over the website that it's free and does not charge authors. Then it "edits" the books by paying a college student to spend ten minutes to run a spell-check and hit, "Change all." They invariably add more mistakes, then charge authors to fix them. They charge for book cover changes. They charge for "expedited fees." They charge for services that no commercial company would ever do and in a way that an honest self-publishing company would never do, all while claiming that they do not charge fees and are absolutely not a vanity press.
They prey on an author's dream to actually be commercially published and have their work validated. They prey on people who have been rejected and wonder if they're any good. They prey on author's dreams of seeing their work on the bookstore shelf by capturing naive souls without enough industry knowledge and telling them what they want to hear and by leading them to believe that they are being published by a legitimate small publisher.
Maybe it worked out well for you, and that's great. But there have been plenty of other people on here who have been crushed when they realize that they've been duped by a "publisher" that literally accepts anything they're given, and worse a publisher that uses creative wording to get around any sort of actual obligation and then treats them like shit if they start asking questions. Hell, they're abusive. Have you seen some of the letters people have received? Or the comments left by Infocenter on the PAMB? If not, you should check out the other threads here.
You might have made it out okay, but there are an awful lot of others who are devastated when they learn the truth. They've had their trust violated, been embarrassed by having to reveal the truth to loved ones, made to feel guilt and shame over their choice. We've seen people say they can never write again because of the emotional baggage leftover from it.
That's why we have a beef with the company. We aren't being unfair. PA is run by a couple of lying, manipulative con artists getting rich on other people's pain. If they told the truth about what they were doing we wouldn't care quite as much, but they don't. As for the 24 million...why would any of these selfish people even think of spending money on marketing when they could instead buy themselves a new private helicopter? This isn't a legitimate business. It's a deceptive lie that has managed to set itself up in the gaps of legality in order to stay out of trouble and running this long. It's sad.
As for writing groups, if you just write emotionally for yourself that's cool. I really mean that. If you do it for you and that's what matters, then I agree that you don't need one. However, the reason we use them is because we can benefit and improve based on criticism. Even the best writing can be improved, so even if what you do have now is great, there are no doubt places that could make it even better.
I think everyone here could understand the connection we feel to our writing and that it's a part of us. I've made myself cry on occasion myself while editing through a particular scene or two, so I know how it is to look at something and know that you've done something that's really pretty good.
At the same time, having my work critiqued has taken what was already good and improved it a thousand times over. I'm someone who believes in always improving and growing as a person and with my skills, so this is important to me. We've got a good group of people here, so if you ever do decide you want to have something critiqued, this is a good place to start. In my experience even placing a small snippet in the Show Your Work area has been beneficial. We also have a query letter critique area which is just invaluable, so even if you don't want your main work looked over, if you ever do decide to go for a commercial publisher, I would definitely recommend using it.
ETA: Terie, cross-posted. Gomen!
There are other companies that sell almost exclusively on the web and are up front about that, without making deceptive claims about being available in bookstores from coast to coast.
There are other companies that charge fees, but that do so upfront (and others like Lulu that can be used for free). PA says all over the website that it's free and does not charge authors. Then it "edits" the books by paying a college student to spend ten minutes to run a spell-check and hit, "Change all." They invariably add more mistakes, then charge authors to fix them. They charge for book cover changes. They charge for "expedited fees." They charge for services that no commercial company would ever do and in a way that an honest self-publishing company would never do, all while claiming that they do not charge fees and are absolutely not a vanity press.
They prey on an author's dream to actually be commercially published and have their work validated. They prey on people who have been rejected and wonder if they're any good. They prey on author's dreams of seeing their work on the bookstore shelf by capturing naive souls without enough industry knowledge and telling them what they want to hear and by leading them to believe that they are being published by a legitimate small publisher.
Maybe it worked out well for you, and that's great. But there have been plenty of other people on here who have been crushed when they realize that they've been duped by a "publisher" that literally accepts anything they're given, and worse a publisher that uses creative wording to get around any sort of actual obligation and then treats them like shit if they start asking questions. Hell, they're abusive. Have you seen some of the letters people have received? Or the comments left by Infocenter on the PAMB? If not, you should check out the other threads here.
You might have made it out okay, but there are an awful lot of others who are devastated when they learn the truth. They've had their trust violated, been embarrassed by having to reveal the truth to loved ones, made to feel guilt and shame over their choice. We've seen people say they can never write again because of the emotional baggage leftover from it.
That's why we have a beef with the company. We aren't being unfair. PA is run by a couple of lying, manipulative con artists getting rich on other people's pain. If they told the truth about what they were doing we wouldn't care quite as much, but they don't. As for the 24 million...why would any of these selfish people even think of spending money on marketing when they could instead buy themselves a new private helicopter? This isn't a legitimate business. It's a deceptive lie that has managed to set itself up in the gaps of legality in order to stay out of trouble and running this long. It's sad.
As for writing groups, if you just write emotionally for yourself that's cool. I really mean that. If you do it for you and that's what matters, then I agree that you don't need one. However, the reason we use them is because we can benefit and improve based on criticism. Even the best writing can be improved, so even if what you do have now is great, there are no doubt places that could make it even better.
I think everyone here could understand the connection we feel to our writing and that it's a part of us. I've made myself cry on occasion myself while editing through a particular scene or two, so I know how it is to look at something and know that you've done something that's really pretty good.
At the same time, having my work critiqued has taken what was already good and improved it a thousand times over. I'm someone who believes in always improving and growing as a person and with my skills, so this is important to me. We've got a good group of people here, so if you ever do decide you want to have something critiqued, this is a good place to start. In my experience even placing a small snippet in the Show Your Work area has been beneficial. We also have a query letter critique area which is just invaluable, so even if you don't want your main work looked over, if you ever do decide to go for a commercial publisher, I would definitely recommend using it.
ETA: Terie, cross-posted. Gomen!
Unfair towards whom? PublishAmerica? I'd be fine with them as long as they made it clear to writers that they are, in essence, a glorified printer.
It would also help if they didn't overprice books, didn't introduce errors to manuscripts and didn't berate writers wanting to get out of their contracts.
Just curious - what do you think a publisher should focus on: selling books to readers/stores or selling books to authors?
There's no crime in it, but that particular business model doesn't seem to accomplish much for the writers either. We tend to look out for writers here.
Some writers may not want a career or may not want commercial publication or sales or royalties, and as such, they may be happy with PA. For others, it's different.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the difference between "sharing your words" with a writers' group and sharing them with readers.
I don't think it's a good deal to have overpriced books that lack distribution, but here we're getting into personal goals. For instance, you don't expect to make money (so it's a good thing you went with PA, which doesn't seem to have paid royalty checks this year). I do expect to make money, even though I'm also "the artist in the equation".
I've actually got three reasons for wanting money from my work:
1. So I might eventually be able to support myself from writing and won't have to work a day job unless I want to.
2. So I can have a good idea of sales. As someone here (Uncle Jim?) once said, the number of sales is proportional to the number of readers. I'd like as many people as possible to read my work.
3. Because I believe my writing is good. So why not be paid for it?
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Well, you definitely joined a group of writers.
The horrible reputation PA has earned comes from their sleezeball marketing, which targets people's hopes and dreams in the worst way. Their techniques are similar to the pimps who wait at bus stations in Los Angeles, approaching young girls fresh off the Iowa farm with not-so-vague promises of stardom, if only they'll submit their innocence/money.
Mr. Masesso, do you honestly believe there's a chance in Hell that Oprah's staff would open unsolicited boxes of books PA ships them? Oprah is an elite reviewer -- in as much as what her reviews do for an author -- with books having to make the journey through a gauntlet of filters and recommendations. The lowliest of interns would be charged with the duty of being sure the boxes of unedited, poorly bound trash is recognized and sent to recycling unopened. PA shipments are a burden to them.
In a nutshell: PA will publish you for free (here's some free heroine, too). Now, if you want to be famous, give us money and we'll guarantee to send your book to Hollywood, where you can be a star.
The writers you've found here don't hate the writers caught up by PA, nor do they hate Iowa farm girls (me, I love every single one as often as possible).
If having a poorly bound, typo filled book is what you're looking for, then okay. But you're still doing business with some pretty evil people -- folks who destroy dreams and prey on people's ignorance. That's the sort of Karma floating around.
And as a Buddhist, it's my opinion that PA's Karma is reflected in it's product. In my religion, Karma is the potential seed and Vipaka is the fruit arising from the grown tree -- and PA's finished products are bug infested apples by destiny of their action.
We're a group of writers, but we're not a crit group. (Yeah, we do have the Share Your Work area, but that's optional.)
A good crit group is hard to find. The first one I joined put me off crit groups for years. It was a terrible experience.
They're not for everyone, and I respect that. I do hope you stick around, because there is plenty of discussion about how the business of writing works. Finding a publisher, formatting a manuscript, basic promotion, and so on.
So welcome to AW, and I hope you stick around. This place is a LOT more than discussion about one publisher.
A good crit group is hard to find. The first one I joined put me off crit groups for years. It was a terrible experience.
They're not for everyone, and I respect that. I do hope you stick around, because there is plenty of discussion about how the business of writing works. Finding a publisher, formatting a manuscript, basic promotion, and so on.
So welcome to AW, and I hope you stick around. This place is a LOT more than discussion about one publisher.
Epilogue
Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere. Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’. Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility. There are 250,000 new books published every year. Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery. If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it? Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing? I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined. Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves. I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors. I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change. I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result. In marketing their company they are selling some sizzle and some steak which is what every company does. Products and services of all kinds are hyped to the heavens; are those diet book claims “deceptive practices” as well? There was no mention of any promotion PA would do in my Contract and you’d assume that would be delineated quite prominently. Isn’t it possible that some heard what they wanted to hear? I think the rub here is that the customers are authors, artists, and when they part with their work product they are emotionally attached to it so when they feel cheated they react more from the heart than the head. Some here are hanging on the fact that they used the word “traditional” which conjured for some the idea that they would do more than they actually said they’d do. That’s a pretty flimsy argument for saying you’ve been scammed. PA is not in business for us. They are in business for them. Last time I checked that was Kosher.
Hate destroys the Host; Crusaders tend to get caught up in the crusade and vendettas lead nowhere. Why not channel that energy into writing another book and finding a publisher who’ll do what you want them to do. You can send them your PA book as a resume’. Frankly I don’t think this exists unless you have some name recognition or media credibility. There are 250,000 new books published every year. Getting what’s being asked for here is akin to winning the Lottery. If PA thought they could make money, their primary goal and since they are a Public Company; their fiduciary responsibility, doing what you want them to do; wouldn’t they do it? Wouldn’t the time, effort and emotional energy that are being poured into destroying PA be better served writing? I have read the litany of complaints and they are all reasonable and I understand that some have naively thought that they would get more than they paid for. But none of the Posts and some have posted many thousands of them, has changed their program and if any of it was illegal it would seem to me that by now they’d have been prosecuted, sanctions or fined. Consider as well that you want them to give you a four figure advance, print perhaps thousands of books and some how arrange for them to be stocked on store shelves. I’m not sure they have the wherewithal to do that if they wanted to and if they did they wouldn’t be able to do it for very many authors. I too was disappointed that no promotion was done by PA but I realize that this was the reality, it’s the way they’ve decided to operate their business and it’s not going to change. I didn’t consider them to be a scam as a result. In marketing their company they are selling some sizzle and some steak which is what every company does. Products and services of all kinds are hyped to the heavens; are those diet book claims “deceptive practices” as well? There was no mention of any promotion PA would do in my Contract and you’d assume that would be delineated quite prominently. Isn’t it possible that some heard what they wanted to hear? I think the rub here is that the customers are authors, artists, and when they part with their work product they are emotionally attached to it so when they feel cheated they react more from the heart than the head. Some here are hanging on the fact that they used the word “traditional” which conjured for some the idea that they would do more than they actually said they’d do. That’s a pretty flimsy argument for saying you’ve been scammed. PA is not in business for us. They are in business for them. Last time I checked that was Kosher.
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