Help needed - Nuns and Convents

Johnnybach · Apr 26, 2010

I'm new to this forum so hope I'm doing everything correctly! I guess I'll soon know if I;m not!

In a story I outlined many years ago, I included a character who was a nun or a Sister in a Convent. After many years, I retired but have picked the story up, again. I know, however, very little about nuns or convents! Why I decided to make her a nun, I have no idea but it fits the story and I am reluctant to change it, now, so, can anyone help, please?

I would like to know something about the way of life of a nun, from getting up in the morning to going to bed, what sort of duties she would be expected to take on, the hierarchy within the convent (who’s in charge, etc.) in order to give an acceptable account as to the character’s part in the story. I do, of course, realise that there are many different types of nuns and convents but my character must be able to mix with the outside world.

The main point is that she needs to be able to leave the Convent and travel abroad at the request of a Priest who needs help with an unidentified problem.

I would like to have some idea of the general layout of the building as regards what rooms, offices, cells, would there be? What are cloisters, about which I have seen a lot mentioned? Would every Convent have these? The Internet has only confused me!

My question is, can anyone, please, help or suggest the best way (apart from joining a convent!) to learn what I need to know - a good book, perhaps? I’m willing to spend the time learning – now I’ve retired, I’ve got the time!

Thanks for listening!

John

Parametric · Apr 26, 2010

Hang onto your hat and keep your fingers inside the moving thread, because I suspect a mod will be punting this thread over to Story Research: Experts and Interviewees Wanted.

And on the subject of experts, you'll be wanting to speak to our very own ex-nun, callalily61.

History_Chick · Apr 26, 2010

I would start by researching different orders so you know where you want to start. Like you said each one is different. I would think that a cloistered nun may not be as able to move about. However, if she had a life before becoming a nun and was an expert in her field, maybe she would be called out.

Good luck. I am fascinated by nuns and wish there were more stories about em.

shadowwalker · Apr 26, 2010

You'd want to make the woman a sister versus a nun if she's going to be going outside the cloister. I did some research on nuns a while ago and was surprised to discover there is a difference.

I believe you'll find a lot of information through various Catholic sites online - probably more than you'd want

Or check with the nearest diocese.

shaldna · Apr 27, 2010

It depends what order she belongs to. And where she is.

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

Parametric said:
Hang onto your hat and keep your fingers inside the moving thread, because I suspect a mod will be punting this thread over to Story Research: Experts and Interviewees Wanted. And on the subject of experts, you'll be wanting to speak to our very own ex-nun, callalily61.

I didn't know about the "Experts and Interviewees" so will have to have alook at that! Thanks.

To be honest, Callaliliy61 is the reason I joined the forum - in searching the Internet, I came across a very good reply she gave to someone way back in late 2008.

Thanks again

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

shaldna said:
It depends what order she belongs to. And where she is.

Hi Shalna,

You're right - that's what I am trying to determine but my knowledge let's me down!

I kinow she's in England, if that's ant help (not much, I suppose!!)

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

Thanks to all,

Sorry Shaldna, I got your name wrong - apologies!

Thanks Shadowwalker and History_Chick - The first thing seems to be that I must learn the difference between a nun and a sister. I, also, need to understand exactly what a cloister means when the word is applied to convents and nuns/sisters.

stormie · Apr 27, 2010

As someone else said, a nun lives a cloistered life, Sisters don't. But that title can be interchangeable; it's not a hard-and-fast rule. (My cousin is a Sister of St.Joseph of Chestnut Hill, and I have a friend who's a Sister. I also taught in a catholic school for nine years, and have been in a few convents. We sometimes call them nuns and they don't mind.)

There are still things I'm not sure of, but here is what I know about those Sisters who live outside the cloister:

Sisters get very little pay. They can travel with others outside the convent. And all convents look different. Some sisters live by themselves in a house if it's a small area. Several different orders (groups) can live together. Our parish convent, a large ugly brick building, has about four different orders--nine sisters all together. There used to be about twenty living there, but the numbers are dwindling.

When they need something, like a new stove, they have to ask the pastor of the parish, if they don't have the money themselves. But since the convent belongs to the parish, it's common for them to get approval and money from the pastor.

As for who's in charge, it used to be each convent had a Mother Superior. Now that there are far less sisters, the pastor of the parish is in charge of the convent usually. There is what's called a Motherhouse. (Not sure if that's one word or two.) For instance, the Motherhouse for the Sisters of St.Joseph of Chestnut Hill is in Philadelphia, PA. The Mother Superior resides there.

If you noticed above, I put "Sister of St.Joseph of Chestnut Hill." First there's the order--Sisters of St.Joseph. Then the place of origin--"of Chestnut Hill." (It's in PA.) My cousin is that, yet now is assigned to a place in Florida.

Most orders don't wear habits anymore. Some sisters choose to still wear at least a veil, others wear the veil and dress. All wear a wedding ring to symbolize their marriage to Christ. And a cross or crucifix somewhere on them.

They used to use given names, like Sr.John Of The Cross. Now most are back to their baptismal names.

I hope this helps a little!

Shakesbear · Apr 27, 2010

About twenty or so years ago I taught at a Catholic girls school in London. The head teacher was a nun. There were quite a lot of protocols about the place which it took me some time to get used to. She used her baptismal name - I'll call her Joan Bloggs. If you were a friend and had known her some time she would be Sister Joan. To most of the staff she was Sister Bloggs. She, and the other sisters, all wore plain black dresses and had a small coif type head covering. The one thing that came as a surprise to me was the enormous sense of fun the sisters had. There was always laughter in the staff room - but some (NOT all) of the sisters could be very brutal to the pupils. Sister Bloggs had travelled quite extensively as she had been sent to teach on various parts of the world. Despite the travel and a natural shrewdness there was about her a naive and trusting view of the world that I think came from her faith.

About the fun and laughter ... a film called Nuns on the Run had not long been released and was still at a West End cinema. The sisters took Sister Bloggs to see it. The all got dressed up in their best habits and such and were quite obviously a chant (collective for nuns?) of nuns!

I'm not sure if this is what you wanted ...

Calla Lily · Apr 27, 2010

And... the "expert" is *not* an expert in this case! I know nothing about how convents outside the US work.

Sorry, Johnnybach, but glad you joined AW. There's a lot to learn here and lots of great people.

[begin shameless plug]

History_Chick, the MC of the book in my sig is an ex-nun.

[/shameless plug]

Chris P · Apr 27, 2010

Call any local Catholic church. They can put you in touch with any number of nuns who will be happy to tell you anything you want to know. Nuns are everywhere, silently working in soup kitchens, pregnancy centers, catholic schools, etc.

shaldna · Apr 27, 2010

Johnnybach said:
Hi Shalna,

You're right - that's what I am trying to determine but my knowledge let's me down!

I kinow she's in England, if that's ant help (not much, I suppose!!)

there are lots of orders of nuns, and each are slightly different. It depends what her plot requires as to which order you'd want her to belong to.

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

Hi stormie,

It helps a lot but there are a few things I, still, don't understand! You say "a nun lives a cloistered life, Sisters don't" but what eactly is a "cloistered life" - that's one of the things that I, just, don't understand and can't seem to find an answer to. I know what a cloister is but how does that fit in?

It may help if I give just a short description of what I, actually, need (as opposed to what I would like to know!)

The story is as follows:-

The time period is 1990 (so mobile or cell phones are out of the story) and a priest, abroad, needs help, with an unspecified problem (part of the plot!) from several nuns/sisters (I don't know which - hence my question), at pr3sent in a convent, in England.

He writes to (whom?) to ask that they be sent. Would that be a Mother Superior? Is there someone whose duty would be to collect the post/mail in the morning and take it to the Mother Superior?

Would it be the Mother Superior who makes the decision as to whom she would send - and when and how or would she need to clear this with a higher authority?

Who would be the Mother Superior's "assistant" - someone with whom she would discuss the letter and any arrangements she might decide to make - a sort of secretary or deputy/assistant?

I feel I should apologise for my lack of knowledge but I don't know why!

Johnnybach

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

callalily61 said:
And... the "expert" is *not* an expert in this case! I know nothing about how convents outside the US work. Sorry, Johnnybach, but glad you joined AW. There's a lot to learn here and lots of great people.

[begin shameless plug]

History_Chick, the MC of the book in my sig is an ex-nun.

[/shameless plug]

Hi Callalily61

No problem! I joined the list because of your reply to someone, in 2008. I learned quite a bit from that correspondence, so thanks for that!

Now, I'm really going to show my ignorance - what does "the MC of the book in my sig" mean - I'm not being rude - I really don't know!

Apologies and thanks for your reply!

Johnnybach

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

Shakesbear said:
About twenty or so years ago I taught at a Catholic girls school in London. The head teacher was a nun. There were quite a lot of protocols about the place which it took me some time to get used to. She used her baptismal name - I'll call her Joan Bloggs. If you were a friend and had known her some time she would be Sister Joan. To most of the staff she was Sister Bloggs. She, and the other sisters, all wore plain black dresses and had a small coif type head covering. The one thing that came as a surprise to me was the enormous sense of fun the sisters had. There was always laughter in the staff room - but some (NOT all) of the sisters could be very brutal to the pupils. Sister Bloggs had travelled quite extensively as she had been sent to teach on various parts of the world. Despite the travel and a natural shrewdness there was about her a naive and trusting view of the world that I think came from her faith.

About the fun and laughter ... a film called Nuns on the Run had not long been released and was still at a West End cinema. The sisters took Sister Bloggs to see it. The all got dressed up in their best habits and such and were quite obviously a chant (collective for nuns?) of nuns!

I'm not sure if this is what you wanted ...

Thanks Shakesbear,

Believe it or not that does help, honestly! As they say, every little bit helps and it's true!

Johnnybach

frimble3 · Apr 27, 2010

A 'cloister' is an enclosed yard, an open grassy area surrounded by a covered arcade/walkway. The whole thing is walled in, and attached to a building (usually a convent or monastery). So someone living a 'cloistered' life is living separate from the world, behind those walls. The cloister is, more-or-less, a place to get outside without actually interacting with the world.

ccbridges · Apr 27, 2010

I want to explain a little bit about living the cloistered life from what I know. I got the chance to visit the nuns in an old convent as part of a piece I did for a local Catholic newspaper. (heck, when I get home I may dig through my portfolio for it!)

Basically when someone dedicates themselves to a cloistered life, they are rejecting the secular world. They devote themselves to a life of prayer, usually using something like St. Benedict's rule (both nuns and monks use this, depending on the order.). So a cloistered nun would not leave her convent.

When I went to visit, the nuns first spoke to me from behind a gate. I was very lucky that they allowed me inside. I guess they were hoping for a recruit

The place I visited is now a monastery for monks, but I was there many many years ago now. More info here: http://newarkfriary.org/history.html

Calla Lily · Apr 27, 2010

Johnnybach said:
Hi Callalily61

No problem! I joined the list because of your reply to someone, in 2008. I learned quite a bit from that correspondence, so thanks for that!

Now, I'm really going to show my ignorance - what does "the MC of the book in my sig" mean - I'm not being rude - I really don't know!

Apologies and thanks for your reply!

Johnnybach

You're quite welcome, and thank you for allowing me to shamelessly plug myself again.

My cryptic reference is to my signature line: My debut novel, Force of Habit, is about an ex-nun PI who needs to stop a stalker before the stalker resorts to murder. Think: Nick and Nora Charles meets World of Warcraft meets Fatal Attraction.

Good luck with your story!

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

Thanks ccbridges and frimble3,

I knew what a cloister was, as I've walked around places like Canterbury Cathedral, many times, along the cloisters, in fact!

It begins to dawn on me that what you're saying is living a "cloistered life" is a form of lifestyle, within the church, and that, in fact, a cloister isn't necessary.

A nun could, therefore, live a "cloistered life" in an old Victorian Building designed for some other pirpose, and which doesn't have a cloister.

Am I right? If so, I've been looking at this the wrong way!

Calla Lily · Apr 27, 2010

No, not unless things have changed a lot in the last decade or so. A cloistered nun is a nun living under specific vows in a specific convent for that purpose. When you're cloistered, you're cut off from the world. That's why the wall, the silence, the one nun who gets "gatekeeper duty" and who deals with visitors and people asking for the nuns to pray for their needs.

An old building could be used as such, but it would have to be modified to cut them off from the world if the building wasn't currently designed that way.

When I was a Canonical Novice, we spend a year and a day cloistered. We went out twice, IIRC, and that was to go to a local TV station to sing for the Mass for Shut-ins. We talked to no one. No one talked to us. We went in, did our bit, and immediately left. We were "set apart" and the TV people knew it and respected it.

ccbridges · Apr 27, 2010

I found a link that might be helpful: http://www.cloisteredlife.com/a-day-within-the-walls/

Shakesbear · Apr 27, 2010

Johnnybach said:
Thanks Shakesbear,

Believe it or not that does help, honestly! As they say, every little bit helps and it's true!

Johnnybach

You are welcome.

LOL - when I was at college there were two nuns there - so the rest of decided to have a Corrupt-A-Nun Week. We had a 50% success rate!

Johnnybach · Apr 27, 2010

callalily61 said:
No, not unless things have changed a lot in the last decade or so. A cloistered nun is a nun living under specific vows in a specific convent for that purpose. When you're cloistered, you're cut off from the world. That's why the wall, the silence, the one nun who gets "gatekeeper duty" and who deals with visitors and people asking for the nuns to pray for their needs.

An old building could be used as such, but it would have to be modified to cut them off from the world if the building wasn't currently designed that way.

Hi again,

Sorry to be a pain but you say "No", at the beginning, yet seem to agree with what I said, that a cloister isn't, actually, necessary - it's the life style, the shutting the rest of the world out or the cutting oneself off from that world, that determines what a "Cloistered Nun" is. So, an old building could be suitable, with the right modifications, but it would be unlikely to be suitable.

This point is only out of interest, now, as, whatever the answer, my nun or sister, obviously, can't be a "cloistered nun" because she has to go abroad and meet people!

Thanks very much for your help - I'd be grateful if you wouldn't mind clarifying that one point, however.

Again, sorry to be a pain.

mtrenteseau · Apr 27, 2010

The two references I thought of were Sister Act and The Sound of Music. I'm curious about what people more familiar with life in the clergy would say about the lifestyles presented in those movies. In both cases, it seemed that they were cloistered nuns that supported a large church, but in Sister Act it was more an evolution of that particular convent than the rules of their order.

Two things contributed to the dwindling of clergy in America. Vatican II, whose effects reached here in the early 70s, allowed people to serve the Church without making a lifetime commitment or vows of celibacy and poverty. Also, as people began to have smaller families, the dynamics that encouraged entering the priesthood or a convent changed. Having one of your six sons become a priest was an honor; having one of your two sons become a priest meant you might not have grandchildren.

Help needed - Nuns and Convents

Johnnybach

Parametric

History_Chick

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Johnnybach

Johnnybach

Johnnybach

stormie

storm central

Shakesbear

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Johnnybach

Johnnybach

Johnnybach

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

ccbridges

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Johnnybach

Calla Lily

On hiatus

ccbridges

Shakesbear

knows a hawk from a handsaw

Johnnybach

mtrenteseau

Mild-mannered accountant by day...