Portrayal of Women

DwayneA · Apr 16, 2010

Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.

In fiction and television, they always seem to portray women as being smarter, stronger, and more competent than men. In cartoons such as the Simpsons and Family Guy, the fathers and sons are idiots while the mothers and daughters are much smarter and intelligent.

Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible".

Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

WildScribe · Apr 16, 2010

It isn't an elevation of women, it's a joke on men. It gets laughs, so why would they stop? Anyway, there ARE portrayals of dumb blonds, etc.

DwayneA · Apr 16, 2010

if it's a joke on men, I'm not laughing

Bushrat · Apr 16, 2010

Maybe it's a balance to all the movies, TV shows and commercials that show women as sex-craved, shopaholic, beauty salon addicted numb wits, teetering away on their high heels and screaming as the mugger/rapist/murderer enters their apartment.

milly · Apr 16, 2010

wait...I AM smarter and more competent than most men so...what's the problem?

This whole "phenomenon" might just be a reality you don't want to accept. (though I do agree with the "stronger" part)

jennontheisland · Apr 16, 2010

And so the tables turn.

And the boys don't like it.

Gee, sucks to be you.

GregB · Apr 16, 2010

DwayneA said:
Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible!

Just curious, is that the only part of the Flintstones you find unrealistic?

DwayneA · Apr 16, 2010

no there are other parts, but if I discuss them, I'll be getting off-topic

Toothpaste · Apr 16, 2010

Dwayne - broaden your viewing to more mature adult shows, and not just cartoons and kids tv comedies. You will see many men being portrayed just fine, and for the most part you will encounter women as little more than sex objects and props for the men in those shows. Watch any CSI episode and you are likely to find some woman murdered in a horrific and usually sexual way as the main plot point mystery for then the main male character to solve. Trust me, hon, women are still very much un-equal in television, and even those few points you made, the joke is that it's so absurd that a woman could possibly take down a man. It's still a joke about a man, with the woman as the prop.

You want to talk unrealistic, how about all those large, and as you call them, stupid men who somehow manage to land hot brilliant women. Those shows tend to be written by men my friend, it's called wish fulfillment.

(but if you're looking for some pretty decent equality in portrayal, check out LOST, the guys get to be heroes. And so do the women.)

DwayneA · Apr 16, 2010

one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.

Soccer Mom · Apr 16, 2010

Dwayne, we've done this repeatedly. Cartoons are not realistic. They are satire. Remember these previous threads?

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132435&highlight=Simpsons

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132042&highlight=cartoons

jennontheisland · Apr 16, 2010

DwayneA said:
one more thing I'd like to know is how I should portray my female characters in my works of fiction. I wouldn't want to wake up one morning and go outside, only to find a huge crowd of angry feminists outside my house.

Why not? You might sell more books that way.

Your characters should be portrayed as your characters. You're never going to please everyone. Trying to is futile. But if you write dynamic characters that readers can relate to, rather than satirical stereotyped, you're less likely to piss a bunch of people off. (see original post)

emandem · Apr 16, 2010

While I agree w/ most of the posters above, I do see Dwayne's point. Maybe it's just b/c I have sons, but I've noticed a trend in kids' books/movies lately...

I took my sons to see Harry Potter, and the girl Hermione in that flick is definitely smarter than the guys. I took them to see Percy Jackson, and the girl (don't know her name) practically kicks Percy's butt in one of the early scenes. In Diary of a Wimpy Kid, there are two main girl parts, one who kick's the wimpy kid's butt, and the other who is portrayed as the school newspaper reporter who is smarter than the guys.

This is prob all very good for the girls self-esteem, but I worry about young boys' take on it... It's fine if both boys/girls are portrayed as equal, but they often teeter on the brink of making the girls stronger.

backslashbaby · Apr 16, 2010

DwayneA said:
Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

Take out 'stronger' in your statement ^^^, and see if it's still problematic.

Or would it surprise you that I think women are quite often smarter and more competent than men? And vice versa.

So explain what's unreal and unfair about everything but 'stronger,' please.

Maybe it's not special treatment at all, and the special treatment that pretended men were always 'more' is just finally wearing off

DwayneA · Apr 16, 2010

the girl's name was Annabella

WildScribe · Apr 16, 2010

I am smarter than most of the guys around me, and stronger than a good few, and I am still very attractive (one cool side effect of being a martial artist is a nicely toned body). Does that make me a bad role model for women because I might hurt boys' delicate self esteem? Puh-lease.

How about teaching your son that people should be seen as people, not as a gender. Some PEOPLE are just smarter, stronger, or faster than others.

maxmordon · Apr 16, 2010

This makes me think a bit too much in Harrison Bergeron, you know, a world where everyone is meant to be average, nobody better than somebody so nobody would get angry about it.

HelloKiddo · Apr 16, 2010

Seriously, this is starting to piss me off. Seriously? Buffy the Vampire Slayer annoys people because seeing a woman fight a man and win is "unrealistic" but watching Jean Claude van Damme, unarmed, fight twelve armed men and walk away with barely a scratch is realistic? Where are the threads about that?

Family Guy is offensive because Lois is smarter than Peter? Brian and Stewie are the smartest characters on the show.

I can name you plenty of shows with smart and strong male leads.

leahzero · Apr 16, 2010

HelloKiddo said:
Seriously, this is starting to piss me off. Seriously? Buffy the Vampire Slayer annoys people because seeing a woman fight a man and win is "unrealistic" but watching Jean Claude van Damme, unarmed, fight twelve armed men and walk away with barely a scratch is realistic? Where are the threads about that?

Family Guy is offensive because Lois is smarter than Peter? Brian and Stewie are the smartest characters on the show.

I can name you plenty of shows with smart and strong male leads.

That's the problem with a male-dominated world. Many men, like the OP, and even women like the mom with sons, are probably not ill-intentioned, but are completely oblivious to the fact that men are consistently and pervasively portrayed as stronger, smarter, more competent, and more (insert desirable quality here) than women in the vast majority of art. Women, in turn, are objectified either as sexual objects or material possessions. And until the past century or so, that's how it's been. That's a lot of cultural inertia to overcome.

They take examples like John Claude van Damme and countless other action heroes for granted, but single out exceptions to the rule like the female characters of Buffy and Family Guy (BTW, I wouldn't call Family Guy a portrayal of misandry--the women on the show are frequently just as dumb and selfish as the men; if anything, Family Guy is often equally ruthless to both sexes), and somehow turn these isolated cases into a defining statement about misandry.

It's pretty silly, but that's what happens when people have blinders on.

emandem · Apr 16, 2010

...I was commenting only on recent kids' movies, btw. I want my sons to feel they are just as smart as the girls, BUT if a girl is smarter, all the power to her! My sons go to a co-ed school where I find it's nearly all girls heading up the school paper, student government, etc., although mine are involved.

I actually find most adult stuff still errs on the side of consistently making men dominant.

willietheshakes · Apr 16, 2010

DwayneA said:
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not)

Care to take another run at it?

And while you're at it, care to cite more than a couple of cartoons -- maybe a book or two, say -- for your source of this pervasive problem, which you see "a lot of authors" engaged in?

willietheshakes · Apr 16, 2010

emandem said:
...I was commenting only on recent kids' movies, btw. I want my sons to feel they are just as smart as the girls, BUT if a girl is smarter, all the power to her! My sons go to a co-ed school where I find it's nearly all girls heading up the school paper, student government, etc., although mine are involved.

So you're looking for movies to fulfill some sort of theraputic mandate that's at odds with the reality that your sons experience every day?

I'm of the opinion that self-esteem shouldn't come as a result of being "better" than someone else (irregardless of gender), but as a direct result of having confidence in oneself and ones own abilities.

Underscoring that: Hermione, in Harry Potter, is not by nature smarter than Ron & Harry. In fact, she is show relentlessly studying (and stealing time -- literally -- to get more of an education), while Harry and Ron are shown getting their homework done at the last minute, focussing on sports, etc, etc, instead. The embrace of education makes her a positive role model for both genders: hard work DOES get results.

HelloKiddo · Apr 16, 2010

willietheshakes said:
Underscoring that: Hermione, in Harry Potter, is not by nature smarter than Ron & Harry. In fact, she is show relentlessly studying (and stealing time -- literally -- to get more of an education), while Harry and Ron are shown getting their homework done at the last minute, focussing on sports, etc, etc, instead. The embrace of education makes her a positive role model for both genders: hard work DOES get results.

Yes. Dumbloedore is the smartest character in the books, not Hermione. Harry and Voldermort are the stars. Most of the strong characters/main roles go to men, so it was an odd choice of a book with "unrealistic superwomen" because there is one strong female character in a lead role.

gothicangel · Apr 16, 2010

At the heart of the OP is stereotyping of BOTH genders. Don't stereotype Dwayne write the world as you really see it. For example, one of my main female characters: a strong and highly intelligent career woman, but her world crumbles when her son disappears. She can feel her strength buckling under the weight.

Dwayne does have a point about modern female representations. Take Brigit Jones that stereotype drives me mad! It's been absorbed into culture, and according to society as a single 28 year old woman, I'm desperate to find a man so much I'm depressed.

I'm NOT!

Shakesbear · Apr 17, 2010

DwayneA said:
Okay, I know a lot of people (especially the girls) are going to call me sexist and misogynistic (I'm not), but this is an issue that I can't understand and that I feel must be brought up and discussed.

In fiction and television, they always seem to portray women as being smarter, stronger, and more competent than men. In cartoons such as the Simpsons and Family Guy, the fathers and sons are idiots while the mothers and daughters are much smarter and intelligent.

Also, I've seen women do things on tv that I consider "unrealistic". For example, in one episode of the "Flintstones", Wilma punches out a champion boxer with one punch. Come on, that's impossible! And in one episode of "Recess" where the kids go to a fair, a big strong boy doesn't hit the bell at a "Test Your Strength" attraction, but then a small girl comes up and she has no trouble ringing the bell. I knew that this was "impossible".

Look, I believe in "equality between the sexes", so I resent women being given special treatment "just because they're women". Yet a lot of authors and television producers keep doing this and portraying women as smarter, stronger, and more competent than the men, which to me isn't just unreal and unfair, it's sexist. So why do women keep being portrayed this way in fictional content? Is it some kind of rule or something?

Why is that impossible? When my brother had boxing lessons so did I. When one of my bro's friends repeatedly pissed me off I told him he would get clouted if he did not leave me alone - he didn't and I did. He was out cold. He was bigger than me and stronger than me and he was arrogant and ignorant about how strength can be used.

What do you mean by "equality between the sexes"? Physical equality? Equality in law? Laws can be passed to eliminate discrimination - but they will not always work and there are cultures in our world where there will always be inequality. How we operate as human beings is about the mindset we have as individuals. If we have self esteem, confidence and are broad minded enough to see the world as it is then we should not need to think about being 'equal'.

J K Rowlings portrayal of Hermoine as studious and hard working is a reflection of the general trend in English schools where the girls do work harder than the boys and have a more realistic outlook on life.

There is no rule that says women should be treated differently just old fashioned concepts of how women should be perceived. If you write about what you know and you do it honestly without the outmoded and perverted view of women I think you will do it well because your post shows, imo, that you are aware of many aspects of society that are unjust.

Portrayal of Women

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