Same sex sex scenes

[Ibelong]

She sell sea shells by the sea shore...

Any how...


Okay, so in a couple of my current works I've had a couple of m/m scenes. I've enjoyed writing them (tremendously), however I find the lack of pronouns awkward. So then, if I resort to using the character names...I feel like every freaking sentence has their name...then that, needless to say is awkward too.
So...I'm wondering how I should deal with this. Yes, I have read other writers works and they seem to go the name route. I have to admit...I still find it clunky and forced.
Any other ideas?

Or is his and him okay?

[kuwisdelu]

Two possible answers:

1. Use first person.

2. Be very careful with your antecedents. Vary between names and pronouns, and try to strategically place antecedents so you can get away with as many pronouns as possible before using a name again. Also, it helps a lot if you set up the scene so that for certain actions can only be done by one of the characters at a given place in the scene. If one character is on his knees and the other is standing, you don't need a name to know whose hands ran through whose hair.

[Becky Black]

Well first thing is, so far as the pronoun sistuation is concerned, don't treat it any differently than you would any other scene with two characters of the same sex in a scene together. Having sex or having tea, the same issues of ambgious "she" or "he" apply.

Read it aloud and see if it does seem clunky.

Get someone else to read it and see if they could correctly replace each pronoun with the name of the person it refers to, then you know they're not confusing.

Don't sweat over much about the use of the names. The reader has already read the name hundreds of times in the book - well unless they're having sex in the first chapter... I've read books where they do... anyway. But really, the name has become just part of the structure of the prose by then. It shouldn't stand out the way for example using the model of a car over and over in the narrative to the point it starts to irritate.

Don't let fear of using the names make you fall into "burly detective syndrome", where you start referring to them by physical characteristics and jobs. One character may indeed be a blond firefighter, but unless their lovin' is so hot the bed catches fire, it's not something I need to be reminded about in a sex scene.

[veinglory]

I think there are various ways to style the writing so you are constantly swapping who "he" is and having to reestablish it by name. One is a very deep POV, the other is to focus for extended periods on one of the characters and what they are doing.

[jet2larkin]

Do it with dialog

[thethinker42]

This is one of the many reasons I write almost exclusively in first person. First person is my default setting now anyway, but since I started writing M/M, even more so. Reading third person M/M sex scenes makes my head spin, writing them is even worse. With first person, I can focus on the feelings and actions without sweating over confusing the reader with whose arm, whose goose bumps, and whose moan I'm talking about.

Do it with dialog

Doesn't always work. Some people don't talk much during sex. Sometimes it's a scene in which the characters can't talk (i.e., they have to be completely silent). And even if they can/do talk, they're not going to describe everything that's happening.

That's not to say every single movement/action needs to be described in detail. The reader can fill in the blanks. But some action, contact between body parts, etc., usually gets described, and that's where I find the pronoun confusion and name repetition to be an issue.

I've seen a few authors who can pull it off (so to speak) in third. I can't get through writing a same sex sex scene in third without my head exploding, so for that reason and numerous others, I stick to first.

[Captcha]

As others have said, don't give up on pronouns entirely, just be clear of the antecedents. And I think sex scenes are most effective when they focus on thoughts/sensations/emotions anyway, so if you're finding the pronouns intrusive, maybe it's a sign that you're doing too much 'Tab A into Slot B' style writing.

Finally - if you think writing m/m is a pain, try m/m/m - 'he groaned as he kissed him.' - yeah, right.

[thethinker42]

As others have said, don't give up on pronouns entirely, just be clear of the antecedents. And I think sex scenes are most effective when they focus on thoughts/sensations/emotions anyway, so if you're finding the pronouns intrusive, maybe it's a sign that you're doing too much 'Tab A into Slot B' style writing.

I'm not sure I agree with that last bit. It's a possibility, yes, and some sex scenes do focus too heavily on tab A/slot B. Still, even when I focus on the sensations/emotions, in a deep (so to speak) POV, there is bound to be *some* references to actions, body parts, etc.

Something to be aware of and watch for? Absolutely.
Can names/pronouns still be a headache even if tab A/slot B isn't the problem? Oooooooh yes.

Finally - if you think writing m/m is a pain, try m/m/m - 'he groaned as he kissed him.' - yeah, right.

Hahaha, I feel your pain, mi amiga. I just finished my second M/M/M a couple of months ago. Even in first person, it's enough to bend my brain sometimes.

Want a real good time? Try an all-male threesome, first person, switching between POVs. (NOT head-hopping, I mean with clear scene breaks, etc) That was...fun...

[Captcha]

I'm not sure I agree with that last bit. It's a possibility, yes, and some sex scenes do focus too heavily on tab A/slot B. Still, even when I focus on the sensations/emotions, in a deep (so to speak) POV, there is bound to be *some* references to actions, body parts, etc.

Something to be aware of and watch for? Absolutely.
Can names/pronouns still be a headache even if tab A/slot B isn't the problem? Oooooooh yes.

No, I agree with you - it's not a definite diagnosis, just a possibility. We need to be able to see what the characters are doing, so there needs to be some physical description. And even if it's all about feelings, etc., there will probably be pronouns, of course.


Hahaha, I feel your pain, mi amiga. I just finished my second M/M/M a couple of months ago. Even in first person, it's enough to bend my brain sometimes.

Want a real good time? Try an all-male threesome, first person, switching between POVs. (NOT head-hopping, I mean with clear scene breaks, etc) That was...fun...

You've inspired me to give the first person a try. I've never done it, but I can see how it would totally help. I usually write really close 3rd, so it might not be a total shock to my system.

[thethinker42]

No, I agree with you - it's not a definite diagnosis, just a possibility. We need to be able to see what the characters are doing, so there needs to be some physical description. And even if it's all about feelings, etc., there will probably be pronouns, of course.

Exactly.

You've inspired me to give the first person a try. I've never done it, but I can see how it would totally help. I usually write really close 3rd, so it might not be a total shock to my system.

I used to write only 3rd, but then started alternating from book to book. Now 1st is all I write. I tried 3rd again a few months ago, and it just feels weird. It's actually more comfortable for me to do alternating 1st POVs throughout a book than to use 3rd.

Another fun one: Wrote a M/F romance in 3rd using both the male and female POVs. Rewrote it. Then realized the problem: it should have been a gay romance, not straight. Changed the female to a male MC, converted the entire book into 1st person from his POV, and rewrote huge chunks of it. (I'm sure you can imagine what had to be done to the sex scenes) Most nightmarish revision I have ever gone through. The book is so much better now, though, and sold a few weeks later. It was worth it and then some, but it was HELLISH. :D

[Maxinquaye]

I'm trying to write a story now that will mix first person and - probably - omni. My MC will be in first person, and my antagonist is written in 3rd, though I may have to go and change that to omni to pry him neatly into the story.

M/M sex in omni... whoa...

[DiloKeith]

There seems to be a lot of support for writing in the first person. I write m/m/m and I don't (currently) have much trouble with readers keeping track of the actors, but that's worth exploring. In my case, the lack of confusion might be the dialogue and the kinky sex I write about - it's usually very obvious which character would do certain things. I'm starting to write some vanilla sex now, so we'll see. As a reader, I have found some scenes in published stories very difficult to follow when a name wasn't used at the beginning of a new paragraph or scene, or often enough. The last time it involved only two men and I had to read it a few times to sort out the characters. Repeating a name a little too often seems like a better choice than leaving confusion.

It's interesting to see comments here about characters sex changes. I'm doing one of those now. The first version was based on real life (FFM) and I had to change the sexes for that (to MFM). Now I'm changing it to MMM.

[thethinker42]

Repeating a name a little too often seems like a better choice than leaving confusion.

I would certainly agree with this. Name repetition is the lesser of two evils, definitely.

Still, it's something that annoys me and makes it difficult for me to read, much less write, a scene, which is why first person is my preference. I've tried writing M/M in 3rd, and it just didn't work for me. I spent more time swearing at it than writing it. LOL So, I stick to first, but if you can make third work, there's certainly nothing wrong with it. :)

[DiloKeith]

I tried my first piece in first person a few days ago and I was delighted with the result. It was m/m, not my usual m/m/m, but now I'm feeling up to the challenge.

Is it "okay" to switch characters between chapters when writing in first person? I realize there are a lot of factors here, but if that method is considered acceptable, it would take care of some confusion. My current story won't work with one POV. I could easily have separate chapters with the three men alternating as narrators. It would be about 75% one character. I realize this is a different topic, but having to keep track of three (and sometimes four) men started me thinking about the change.

[Maryn]

dkj, it's not forbidden, but you need a compelling reason for the POV change, same as in any genre. In general, I try to avoid it because in my earliest work, it was my way of sliding around challenges presented by sticking to the reader-preferred single POV, such as how to present information the POV character did not receive directly. (Reading a fairly simple mystery will show you lots of techniques that work.)

I also see people changing POVs when they don't really know whose story this is and why it's theirs rather than one of the other character's.

Maryn, who never says never

[DiloKeith]

Thanks, Maryn. Today I worked on cutting 30% of the words from a story. Removing everything that was in the second character's head took care of half of that. Like you say, there are other ways to show those parts.

[thethinker42]

I have one book that's written in first person, divided between three characters. It was the only way to do the story justice, because there were conversations, events, etc., that I wanted to convey firsthand, but any one of the three characters wouldn't be there for all of them. I think it worked really well, and my betas and editor agree, but it IS challenging.

So, as Maryn said, it's not forbidden, but she does raise some good points about *why* you might use it. I use it when it's the only way to tell that story properly.

[Rise2theTop]

I also struggled with this issue before I switched to DPOV. Not easy, but I have been writing this way for some time now and it comes easier for me. My beta readers love it. Also I have learned to join sentences carefully to keep the he/he thing from becoming a nuisance.

[Maryn]

I'm not trying to be dense (it happens naturally), but what does the D stand for in DPOV?

Maryn, confuzzled

[singsebastian]

I dunno about the first person thing...
I am reading Death Note fan fic that has a lot of M/M Erotica in it and its in third person. The couple who writes it do a fantastic job! I've never been confused with the thrid person POV as to what is happening during a sex scene.

However, I'd go with my writers instinct on it. I've written most of mine from third person because it seemed the most natural to me. First person actually has me thinking too much about the PWP I'm trying to write. :)

[VoireyLinger]

You can't avoid the high-frequency naming if you want to avoid pronoun confusion. You either clearly label who is doing what:

John took Raul's hand from John's knee and brushed John's across Raul's knuckles.

or you wonder if there are two people in the scene.

He took his hand from his knee and brushed his lips across his knuckles.

Neither works well.

I make sure someone 'owns' the paragraph and s/he's the one who gets the pronouns. Usually the person whose POV i'm in is the pronoun-holder.

He took Raul's hand from his knee and brushed his lips across his lover's knuckles.


2) I strip the body part of the possessive terms and refer to it directly. So instead of

He took his hand from his knee and brushed a kiss across his knuckles.

I'd have

He took his lover's hand from his knee and brushed a kiss across the knuckles.

I don't think you can get away from high-frequency naming, but I do try to limit it. If i can't limit it without pronoun confusion, naming is the lesser of the evils, IMO.

[singsebastian]

I honestly think that you have to give on person a title like Lover in order to keep things from getting confusing. I highly agree that too manny name/his/he usage or vise versa if its femslash, can get very confusing.

[KariGregg]

There are ways to work around the pronoun issue in 3rd that can work stylistically very well with proper care and attention to detail to preserve the mood. You can sub with "the man," "the blond," "the geek," etc, for instance. If, after reading it over, you think it sounds wooden or jarring? That substitution doesn't belong there, use a proper name instead.

It is a bit more work, I agree.

I've done M/M stories/scenes in 1st POV and in limited 3rd. I enjoyed the 1st POV story, very true, (it was my first try at 1st POV), but only because the POV was (IMO) deeper, richer and just perfect for that story. Really made it shine. I don't think 3rd (even a limited 3rd) would've had the same affect. But I certainly wouldn't recommend switching to 1st just to avoid the pronoun issue. There's a time and place for 1st and a time and place for 3rd. What POV you use should best fit the story.

[Darklite]

My second book is in 3rd limited POV and I am going through pronoun hell with edits at the moment. I have even resorted to an epithet (and I hate those) because it’s the only way I could get a particular sentence through basically intact.

The problem I find with 1st person is that the narrator needs a distinctive voice to pull it off properly. Otherwise you may write a ton of books in 1st but all the narrators (if they're bland) risk coming across as the author's voice, rather than the character's. So, to me, when people say first person is an easier option, I really don’t agree that it is. But then again, I don’t think there is any easy option when it comes to writing a story.

[firedrake]

The problem I find with 1st person is that the narrator needs a distinctive voice to pull it off properly. Otherwise you may write a ton of books in 1st but all the narrators (if they're bland) risk coming across as the author's voice, rather than the character's. So, to me, when people say first person is an easier option, I really don’t agree that it is. But then again, I don’t think there is any easy option when it comes to writing a story.

I'm painfully aware of this right now!
I'm in the midst of writing my second m/m novel and, again, it's in first person and I am trying bloody hard to make sure that Michael sounds nothing like Evan! lol! I've tried to make it easier for myself, by making this MC a quieter person.

[Darklite]

I try to exaggarete certain aspects of my narrator's personality. My reasoning is if I exaggarete different aspects with each narrator, that just might keep each character distinctive.

And BTW, how is Evan these days? Winging his way to a publisher very soon, I hope.

[KariGregg]

LOL, it did help re 1st POV and unique voices that my 1st POV book was fantasy. Micah thinks and "speaks" (he's functionally mute) in more archaic terms as a parameter of the story world. I've got another 1st POV m/m novel on the calendar to finish & ship out in February that's mostly done (hardee har har, aren't they always?) that was easy as far as differentiating voice because that character is so thoroughly modern. And a shifter, too. Micah and Gabriel are sooooo different. Maintaining their unique voices was not a problem, LOL.

[firedrake]

I try to exaggarete certain aspects of my narrator's personality. My reasoning is if I exaggarete different aspects with each narrator, that just might keep each character distinctive.

And BTW, how is Evan these days? Winging his way to a publisher very soon, I hope.

That's a good idea.

Evan is fine. Just a few little tweaks and then I must tackle the dreaded synopsis.

[Rise2theTop]

Dialog helps with this issue for sure, but I use a lot of inner thoughts too, so here is what I do.

Always make it clear who's POV it is right at the get go of the paragraph and join sentences. HUGE difference. Now I realize I write differently than most and insert inner thought into narrative, but its something to consider. Joining those two sentences without the ,damn, mixed in still would work.

Also, the he / him / his thing is kinda like the he / she said thing... they almost disappear if you are clear about who's POV it is right away. Then use the opposite characters name to help break up the he/he thing.

Below, the first paragraph is the way 'I' handle this issue.

In the second one, its not clear who's legs and ass he is watching until you put in Aden's name and the second time it gets rid of another him.
Both paragraphs work, but the second one's not quite as clear unless you really concentrate. Might not be the best example, but its something. LOL

Brice watched the muscles in Aden's legs and ass flex as he walked away, damn, then closed his eyes trying to ignore the fact his pants were now too fucking tight. Waiting for Aden to return, the scent of cologne, soap and sex all around them aroused him even more. Fresh, masculine, seductive. Fuck, what's taking him so long?

Brice watched the muscles in his legs and ass flex as he walked away. Damn... He closed his eyes trying to ignore the fact his pants were now too fucking tight. Waiting for him to return, the scent of cologne, soap and sex all around them aroused him even more. Fresh, masculine, seductive. Fuck, what's taking him so long?

Does that help at all? I hope so.
Rise

[Darklite]

Brice watched the muscles in Aden's legs and ass flex as he walked away, damn, then closed his eyes trying to ignore the fact his pants were now too fucking tight. Waiting for Aden to return, the scent of cologne, soap and sex all around them aroused him even more. Fresh, masculine, seductive. Fuck, what's taking him so long?

I've just bolded the pronouns my editor would probably take issue with. You have two pronouns referring to different people in the same sentence. It's really difficult to get around that without overusing proper names. Which is what I'm working on at the moment.

[thethinker42]

I've just bolded the pronouns my editor would probably take issue with. You have two pronouns referring to different people in the same sentence. It's really difficult to get around that without overusing proper names. Which is what I'm working on at the moment.

This.

As I've said before, first person has become my default setting anyway, but even when I still wrote third, I just couldn't do it with M/M. The sex scenes invariably made me go cross-eyed. My hat's off to those who can do it...it just doesn't work for me.

[*RomanceWriter*]

My m/m/m third-person romance was tricky. It's a balancing act of pronouns, real names, and pet names without going overboard on one or the other.

[Rise2theTop]

I've just bolded the pronouns my editor would probably take issue with. You have two pronouns referring to different people in the same sentence. It's really difficult to get around that without overusing proper names. Which is what I'm working on at the moment.

I so get ya, but when I had it separated it was even worse! I would have had to ADD even MORE pronouns to make it happen. So I picked the lesser of two evils. I even tried to somehow dialog it... but the guy is walking away unaware he's being watched! Fail! The room scents are important too! It's actually something that can't be left out either because it sets up the next paragraph with a third person....sigh...

So....two pronouns it was... I mean... if peeps can't figure it out... well.. so be it. It wouldn't be a stand out issue if it was he/ she, now would it.
I think the people who actually read a lot of same sex erotica are used to actually thinking a bit. They have to.

Oh well... It is what it is! If ya come across a 'light bulb' moment let us all know! LOL!

[Darklite]

This might do it without breaking the rules, although the second to last sentence could probably stay with 'him' because the 'Waiting for Aden to return' obviously refers to Brice.



Brice watched The muscles in Aden's legs and ass flexed as he walked away. Damn. then Brice closed his eyes trying to ignore the fact his pants were now too fucking tight. Waiting for Aden to return, the scent of cologne, soap and sex all around them aroused Bricehim even more. Fresh, masculine, seductive. Fuck, what's taking him so long?



I agree with you that much of the time context shows which 'he' the pronoun is referring too, but I suppose it makes for a more professional ms if the rules are followed. I'm actually finding my story is getting much stronger as I'm doing the edits (which is of course the editor's job) , even if I do use the characters' names more often now.

[Rise2theTop]

RE: Darklite: This might do it without breaking the rules, although the second to last sentence could probably stay with 'him' because the 'Waiting for Aden to return' obviously refers to Brice.

I agree with you that much of the time context shows which 'he' the pronoun is referring too, but I suppose it makes for a more professional ms if the rules are followed. I'm actually finding my story is getting much stronger as I'm doing the edits (which is of course the editor's job) , even if I do use the characters' names more often now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mmmmmmmm...See, I can''t do it that way either, then it falls out Brice's POV. If you saw the whole scene, you'd see it, and of course you can't possibly know that. I did make me rethink it though and I still can't see another way and avoid the POV thing.

Well, I chose to write this in a very complicated POV that some would probably shoot me for, but I now have almost 38 beta readers and they all say it will fly.... We will see. I'm outside the box. Way outside. Always have been, always will be I suppose. LOL! I make my own rules and they usually lead me in the right direction if I follow my gut. Ya never know, maybe it will catch on one day!

Wait...What are the rules again??? Oh yeah...mine. No, I follow MOST, but.....
Man, I break a few too.