Knowing your audience [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

MsJudy

03-30-2010, 04:04 AM

Some things to ponder as we discuss things like, How long should my book be? and Do kids really read anymore, anyway?

As some of you know, Accelerated Reader is a computer program that quizzes students on the books they've read. It's the site we use as writers to check the word count of published novels.

Well, three times a year, my principal prints out a school-wide Word Count Report.

Here's some March data:

Out of approximately 300 students grades 3-6, 26 have already read more than a million words since August. That's 1,000,000. 2 more are only one good novel away.

7 kids (my son included, thank you very much) have read more than two million words this year. That's 2,000,000.

The top reader: 61 books read. 4,391,595 words total.

Yep. You read that right.

Of course, down at the other end, the principal is holding a study hall twice a week for the 40 kids who have yet to pass at least 5 quizzes.

Imagine the gap in vocabulary, knowledge, vicarious experience, academic preparation between the kid who has read 4 million words and the kid who has read less than 1 thousand.

Here's another interesting thing to look at:

Randomly chosen pair of kids. Both have read 1,200,000 words, more or less. Emily read 15 books. Ava read 39.

So obviously, Emily is reading long, thick books, and Ava is choosing shorter, faster books. With the same end result: lots of reading.

I dunno, you decide whether this means anything to you as a writer. But I thought some of you would find it interesting.

Smish

03-30-2010, 05:12 AM

Yep, that is very interesting. It does make me wonder how stats measure up from school to school, state to state, and region to region, though.

Kitty Pryde

03-30-2010, 05:30 AM

That is interesting. Little kid me would have been OBSESSED with being number 1 on that schoolwide list! When I was a kid all we had was Pizza Hut Book-It pins. Read five books a semester, collect 5 star stickers on your pin, go to Pizza Hut and get a DELICIOUS FREE PIZZA!

Sometimes I think about both ends of the reading ability bell curve. If I write a book at a 4th grade level, and it gets published, some of the readers will be smartypants 1st graders, some of the readers will be 8th graders with learning disabilities, and what will they make of it? But on the other hand, they're just a minority, most readers will just be 4th graders!

Smish

03-30-2010, 05:52 AM

That is interesting. Little kid me would have been OBSESSED with being number 1 on that schoolwide list! When I was a kid all we had was Pizza Hut Book-It pins. Read five books a semester, collect 5 star stickers on your pin, go to Pizza Hut and get a DELICIOUS FREE PIZZA!

Ha! My brother and I were talking about the Book-It program the other day. We both read a lot, but I always read more quickly, so I got more pizzas than him. So, I'd have my own personal pan, but he'd have to share Mom and Dad's pizza. Hehe.

However, he was much better at math, so he'd throw math questions at me that I could never answer. Oh well. I got more pizza. :D

CharleyGirl

03-30-2010, 06:37 AM

Ha! My brother and I were talking about the Book-It program the other day. We both read a lot, but I always read more quickly, so I got more pizzas than him. So, I'd have my own personal pan, but he'd have to share Mom and Dad's pizza. Hehe.

However, he was much better at math, so he'd throw math questions at me that I could never answer. Oh well. I got more pizza. :D

Hey, those incentive programs work for adults too! :)

My local library had an adult reading program, and you had to read 8 books in three months in order to get a chocolate bar and ceramic mug (my reading list had been mostly middle grade for research at the time, so it was a nice reason for change). My husband laughed at me struggling to stay awake at night to read during my only free time, but I was determined to "win" a prize. Silly of me, I know, but damn if the morning coffee doesn't taste a little better in that cup.

MsJudy

03-30-2010, 06:44 AM

I'd do a lot for a chocolate bar!

Actually, it isn't published to the kids which kid is #1 on the list. I just get to cheat since I'm both a teacher and a mom.

The cool thing about Accelerated Reader is that you set individual goals, and reward everybody who makes their goal. So you could have one kid trying to get 6 points in a semester, and another trying to get 100 points. And both get to go to the same ice cream party if they make their goal.

And then we celebrate everyone who makes the 1 million word mark because of the research on testing. #1 predictor of success on standardized tests? Surprisingly, it's NOT parental education level or income. It's free-choice reading. The more kids read, the higher their test scores tend to be. And the kids who score in the 95th percentile and higher are the kids who read 1,000,000 words or more a year.

So schools now devote a whole lot of rewards and energy to motivate kids to read.

Amarie

03-30-2010, 06:52 AM

The cool thing about Accelerated Reader is that you set individual goals, and reward everybody who makes their goal. So you could have one kid trying to get 6 points in a semester, and another trying to get 100 points. And both get to go to the same ice cream party if they make their goal.

This is great, because for those kids who aren't crazy about reading, they wouldn't be discouraged by a goal that would be a struggle for them to meet.

CharleyGirl

03-30-2010, 06:57 AM

[QUOTE=JudScotKev;4798516]
#1 predictor of success on standardized tests? Surprisingly, it's NOT parental education level or income. It's free-choice reading. The more kids read, the higher their test scores tend to be. And the kids who score in the 95th percentile and higher are the kids who read 1,000,000 words or more a year.
QUOTE]

Those are great statistics. I've got two stepchildren and our 14-year-old has always loved reading. The other, our 12-year-old, just can't seem to get interested by anything. He says he doesn't like long books, so I suggest shorter ones. I've tried books about sports he likes, adventure tales, graphic novels, (he is the only kid I know who just stopped reading "Diary of a Wimpy Kid," because he just wasn't into it. He'll gladly see the movie though). He's a great kid, doesn't have problems with doing reading for homework, and does fine on tests...he just doesn't like to read.

I really feel like he's missing out, both on a wonderful hobby and on greater success academically. Any suggestions of books for kids who just don't seem to enjoy books?

Smish

03-30-2010, 07:07 AM

#1 predictor of success on standardized tests? Surprisingly, it's NOT parental education level or income. It's free-choice reading. The more kids read, the higher their test scores tend to be. And the kids who score in the 95th percentile and higher are the kids who read 1,000,000 words or more a year.

That's what I like to hear! I do wonder how much of a part parental education and income plays in whether kids read, though. I would think that the better educated and wealthier parents are, the more they'd encourage their kids to read (and the more books they'd purchase for them).

However, the stats you provide are supported by my own experiences. My brother and I always scored well on standardized tests, and both have graduate degrees as adults. But my parents only had high school degrees and not a lot of money. They were very intelligent, though, and loved to read, so they encouraged my brother and me to read. Hooray for reading!

(A shout out to my mom: when I was in high school, she started taking college classes, and eventually graduated with a 4.0. Guess what she does now? She's a teacher. Yayy. :D )

Hey, those incentive programs work for adults too! :)

My local library had an adult reading program, and you had to read 8 books in three months in order to get a chocolate bar and ceramic mug (my reading list had been mostly middle grade for research at the time, so it was a nice reason for change). My husband laughed at me struggling to stay awake at night to read during my only free time, but I was determined to "win" a prize. Silly of me, I know, but damn if the morning coffee doesn't taste a little better in that cup.

Congrats on your mug, CharleyGirl. I'm sure it's lovely. ;)

Amarie

03-30-2010, 07:09 AM

I really feel like he's missing out, both on a wonderful hobby and on greater success academically. Any suggestions of books for kids who just don't seem to enjoy books?

Have you tried the Alex Rider series by Anthony Horowitz? The books are about a teenage spy, and seem to appeal even to kids who don't read much. I've also had success by playing the first book of a series on CD in the car, and then finding my daughter was so intrigued by the story, she wanted to read more books in the series.

Amarie

03-30-2010, 07:12 AM

That's what I like to hear! I do wonder how much of a part parental education and income plays in whether kids read, though. I would think that the better educated and wealthier parents are, the more they'd encourage their kids to read (and the more books they'd purchase for them).

It's partly just kids' personalities too. We have a house overflowing with books, and one of my children reads all the time, but the other loves art so much, that if you give her a choice, she would much rather draw/paint/make crafts, etc., than read.

Smish

03-30-2010, 07:14 AM

Those are great statistics. I've got two stepchildren and our 14-year-old has always loved reading. The other, our 12-year-old, just can't seem to get interested by anything. He says he doesn't like long books, so I suggest shorter ones. I've tried books about sports he likes, adventure tales, graphic novels, (he is the only kid I know who just stopped reading "Diary of a Wimpy Kid," because he just wasn't into it. He'll gladly see the movie though). He's a great kid, doesn't have problems with doing reading for homework, and does fine on tests...he just doesn't like to read.

I really feel like he's missing out, both on a wonderful hobby and on greater success academically. Any suggestions of books for kids who just don't seem to enjoy books?

Some kids just really don't like to read. It doesn't necessarily mean he won't have academic success. My best friend, for example, hates to read. She still always made straight-As and is now a teacher (a band director. :) She's a brilliant musician). So, as long as he's doing well in school, I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't encourage him to read, though. Maybe try getting him interested in some of the award-winning magazines. Check out the bug magazines (Spider, Cricket, etc) and the Cobblestone group mags (Odyssey, Faces, Dig, Calliope, etc). I'm not sure how old your son is, but I'm sure there's a magazine that would be suitable for him. If he likes reading magazines enough, perhaps he'll then read more books.

:)Smish

Smish

03-30-2010, 07:15 AM

I've also had success by playing the first book of a series on CD in the car, and then finding my daughter was so intrigued by the story, she wanted to read more books in the series.

How sneaky. And brilliant. :D

CharleyGirl

03-30-2010, 07:18 AM

Thanks Smish and Melia for your suggestions!

mware01

03-30-2010, 07:19 AM

Judy,
Do you have averages? I'd be interested to know how much the 'typical' kid reads; especially boy vs. girls.
-Mike

Chris P

03-30-2010, 07:28 AM

Those are great statistics. I've got two stepchildren and our 14-year-old has always loved reading. The other, our 12-year-old, just can't seem to get interested by anything. He says he doesn't like long books, so I suggest shorter ones. I've tried books about sports he likes, adventure tales, graphic novels, (he is the only kid I know who just stopped reading "Diary of a Wimpy Kid," because he just wasn't into it. He'll gladly see the movie though). He's a great kid, doesn't have problems with doing reading for homework, and does fine on tests...he just doesn't like to read.

I can't read this without having my heart being torn apart. Our boy (step-son technically, but what does technically mean anyway?) is 19 and literally has never finished reading a single book in his life (for real - he got strait zeros on any reading assignment in school). Our middle girl is 17 and has only read Twilight, Harry Potter and Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants (she too got zeros on any reading assignment except Romeo and Juliet). Our youngest (14) reads some, but only begrudgingly and only for school. I struggled with reading early on, but in 4th grade it clicked for me and I was reading Agatha Christie and "Catcher in the Rye" by 5th grade. I'm still a slow reader, but I love every word (even in the books I hate). I have written about a million words of fiction and probably as many of non-fiction, including my MS and PhD dissertations. I don't understand how anyone could not love books and reading. I simply cannot relate to my kids in this respect, and therefore I have no idea how to write for them; we have different motivations.

My reaction as a writer: don't write wondering who's going to get it, write knowing the right people will get it. (appols to Joel Hodgeson of MST3K - best TV show ever)

Smish

03-30-2010, 07:30 AM

Thanks Smish and Melia for your suggestions!

You're welcome! You can find the latest Parents' Choice award-winning magazines here (http://www.parents-choice.org/award.cfm?thePage=magazine&p_code=p_per).

C.J. Rockwell

03-30-2010, 01:42 PM

My reaction as a writer: don't write wondering who's going to get it, write knowing the right people will get it.

I have to admit that you make a valid point here, though it's hard to keep that thought in my head.

I mean, not to sound more off-kilter than I normally do on here, but how many lovers of fantastical talking animals stories do you know that can read more than four syllables at one time?

The key phrase here is "More than four syllables at one time?"

I'm sure many of you would counter that with "Write about real people in the read modern world" but it's just not that simple.

I like reading those stories myself, just not good at writing them.

I love my talking animal stories, when done right, that's why I write them. There the best stories in me right now.

That said, picture books are not in my immediate future. Do you know how hard they are? Plus, the fact that people often put them in the same class as poetry doesn't help my confidence since I'm an haphazard poet at best. You do the math from there.

Not every kid likes HP, Twilight, or Diary of a Wimpy Kid, so why do so many writers tell me my stories are so unapproachable just because they've got talking animals, and they're not for preschoolers.

I'm just not ready to do proper chapter books and picture books. I've got the ideas, but not the skill for proper execution. I'm a novelist, darn it!!

Okay, I'm done now.

Getting back on topic. I didn't start reading more until high school, and frankly many of the books I love and still love would've made me more of an outcast than I was. No teens I can think of would admit willingly that they still had a weakness for books that didn't have sex and excessive drug use.

Temp, maybe it'll just click with your kids later. Unlike some things in life, it's never to late to know the true joy of a book.

That said, I haven't read as much as I'd like because-

A. I HAVE to write MORE than I have in the past to improve.

B. It's become hard to enjoy a book without feeling like I'm depressingly inferior. Yes, I know they were copy-edited and rewritten a zillion times, but let's face it, the stiff competition in the market doesn't help the matter of breaking in.

C.J.

Hedgetrimmer

03-30-2010, 03:30 PM

I can't read this without having my heart being torn apart. Our boy (step-son technically, but what does technically mean anyway?) is 19 and literally has never finished reading a single book in his life (for real - he got strait zeros on any reading assignment in school). Our middle girl is 17 and has only read Twilight, Harry Potter and Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants (she too got zeros on any reading assignment except Romeo and Juliet). Our youngest (14) reads some, but only begrudgingly and only for school. I struggled with reading early on, but in 4th grade it clicked for me and I was reading Agatha Christie and "Catcher in the Rye" by 5th grade. I'm still a slow reader, but I love every word (even in the books I hate). I have written about a million words of fiction and probably as many of non-fiction, including my MS and PhD dissertations. I don't understand how anyone could not love books and reading. I simply cannot relate to my kids in this respect, and therefore I have no idea how to write for them; we have different motivations.

My reaction as a writer: don't write wondering who's going to get it, write knowing the right people will get it. (appols to Joel Hodgeson of MST3K - best TV show ever)

I can totally empathize with this. I have two nieces (sisters). One is a college freshman and the other 11. They both grew up with the same parents in the house, yet they are like night and day when it comes to reading. The older child devours books, having gone through the HP series like it was nothing when she was still pretty young, typically reads above her grade level and even asks to read some of my WIPs.

Her sister, who is actually a very good student, has stated to me more than once that she just doesn't like to read. When I ask her why not, she says it's boring. It amazes me that they could possess the same genes and grow up in the same household but have completely opposite attitudes when it comes to books.

SheilaJG

03-30-2010, 04:55 PM

Judy, thanks for the great thread. It's been a fascinating discussion.

CharleyGirl - Last year I read a book by Donalyn Miller called The Book Whisperer. She's a sixth grade teacher who, every year, gets reluctant readers to read 40+ books. She says she's never met a kid she couldn't turn into a reader. The book seemed more geared to teachers, but I found it interesting how she really quizzes the kids on their interests and then steers them toward books they might like, but ultimately lets them choose what they want to read.

Quick question, Judy - how do you get the word count on the books your kids read? I know you can sometimes get the word stats off Amazon, but often they aren't listed. Is there some secret teacher list I don't know about? I love using word count as a measure, rather than number of books read.

shaldna

03-30-2010, 05:17 PM

That's some great stats. thanks.

shaldna

03-30-2010, 05:22 PM

I love my talking animal stories, when done right, that's why I write them. There the best stories in me right now.

Watership down is my favourite book of all time. I'm 27. Wind in the Willows is in my top ten. Black beauty has been a favourite since I was young. Lots of people like talking animal stories. But the talking animals should not be the gimmick.

Plus, the fact that people often put them in the same class as poetry doesn't help my confidence since I'm an haphazard poet at best. You do the math from there.

What people? Where?

why do so many writers tell me my stories are so unapproachable just because they've got talking animals, and they're not for preschoolers.

What do your READERS tell you?

C.J. Rockwell

03-30-2010, 05:54 PM

Watership down is my favourite book of all time. I'm 27. Wind in the Willows is in my top ten. Black beauty has been a favourite since I was young. Lots of people like talking animal stories. But the talking animals should not be the gimmick.

I agree with that, and I don't think I do that. I do it because I love it, I always have, even in the years when I should have"Grown up."

What people? Where?

Almost every writer I've shared my work with who critiqued it.

What do your READERS tell you?

What do you mean?:Shrug:

RoseColoredSkies

03-30-2010, 09:43 PM

CharleyGirl, I know it was previously mentioned a little but perhaps try having your son listen to books on tape. He still gets the story but doesn't have to actually do the physical turning of pages and deciphering of words.

I enjoyed books on tape (well CD/mp3 now) when I was younger. Though to be honest I did enjoy following along in the book, but that was just me.

C.J. Rockwell

03-30-2010, 10:47 PM

MsJudy

03-31-2010, 03:52 AM

Judy,
Do you have averages? I'd be interested to know how much the 'typical' kid reads; especially boy vs. girls.
-Mike

that would be cool info, but unfortunately I don't know. I only have the top 30+ names. Only the principal can access the whole school, and she only printed out the million+ kids.

I can give you one breakdown: 10 of the top 25 readers were boys. So I think that disproves the theory that "boys just don't read."

MsJudy

03-31-2010, 03:54 AM

Quick question, Judy - how do you get the word count on the books your kids read? I know you can sometimes get the word stats off Amazon, but often they aren't listed. Is there some secret teacher list I don't know about? I love using word count as a measure, rather than number of books read.

Yep, it's in this Sticky thread:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113931

Tells all about how Accelerated Reader works and gives you the link to look up books.

MsJudy

03-31-2010, 03:58 AM

Those are great statistics. I've got two stepchildren and our 14-year-old has always loved reading. The other, our 12-year-old, just can't seem to get interested by anything. He says he doesn't like long books, so I suggest shorter ones. I've tried books about sports he likes, adventure tales, graphic novels, (he is the only kid I know who just stopped reading "Diary of a Wimpy Kid," because he just wasn't into it. He'll gladly see the movie though). He's a great kid, doesn't have problems with doing reading for homework, and does fine on tests...he just doesn't like to read.

I really feel like he's missing out, both on a wonderful hobby and on greater success academically. Any suggestions of books for kids who just don't seem to enjoy books?

Will he read non-fiction? My older son didn't willingly finish a novel until he was in fourth grade, but he liked to read books about animals, space, things like that. Then quite suddenly he discovered fantasy/adventure, stuff like Eragon and Gregor the Overlander, and he's been a reader ever since. But not a passionate one, the way I am, or like his little brother.

I think sometimes you just have to let kids be who they are. If he does well with his required-for-school reading, then I wouldn't push too hard. He'll get there when he's ready, I bet.