Male vs. Female MCs

[Jamie Stone]

I know in the olden days of Dickens, Shakespeare, and classical literature, the main characters--and, indeed, the major authors--were almost always male. But today it seems like a majority of authors are female, as are main characters.

It's possible that I feel this way because the majority of what I read includes females as an MC because I'm a woman, but I can't help but think of all of the novels that are best-sellers and how, with a few exceptions, they tend to revolve around women.

Is it possible that everyone was clamoring for female MCs and now we have an overabundance of them?

Do you have a preference for reading a male or female protag?

[Stunted]

Honestly, I like reading about male characters more. (I'm female, btw.) I don't know why that is, but I know a number of girls who have expressed the same opinion.

[Kitty27]

I write both and I love reading stories from a guy's POV.

[BrooklynLee]

I like both, and I write both. Actually, if I think about my favorite novels, they are a mix. I do know from what I've read that in certain categories (like YA) there is a desire (among editors and agents at least) for more male MC books, because boys are less likely to read books with a female MC. I imagine that translates to adult men to a certain extent. However, I've also heard that women, in general, read more fiction, so part of the focus on female MC is an honest response to the market (it's hard for me to say, though; I married a man who majored in English lit, with a focus on the early novel, and so sometimes it surprises me what he's read, and what he's willing to read)

[maestrowork]

I read and write both. Doesn't make a difference to me. It depends on the story. Obviously, it depends on the genres, too -- for example, romance tends to have more female MCs.

[leahzero]

Totally the opposite in sci-fi. The norm there is still the male protagonist, and most of the authors are male.

In high fantasy, I think it's still dominated by male authors/male protagonists, but it varies by subgenre.

I don't prefer reading one over the other. I find both interesting. But I also find that many authors need to observe and study people more, because they resort to gender stereotypes to compensate for a lack of knowledge. Not all women are blank. Not all men are blankety-blank. Worse is the reverse-stereotype: a woman who isn't "womanly" has to be "manly," and vice-versa. And all of this ignores modern notions of gender as culturally rather than biologically ascribed.

I most enjoy characters that don't feel like they're deliberately written to "sound" male or female, but rather to sound like themselves.

[dgiharris]

hmmmm....

never really thought about it. In my top ten list of favorite books, 2 of them have females as the lead character. INcidentally, 2 of the other books (male MCs) are from female authors.

I've recently just started writing female lead characters, i'm finishing up a novella (should be done next month) in which the lead character is female.

WHen I write, I just tend to start with who would be the 'best' character.

If I analyze a few of my stories, I tend to favor female characters for my more emotional stories, especially when my MC needs to have emotional strength/resolve.

I tend to gravitate towards men for action and humor.

Mel...

[Nessa]

I am a girl and I like reading about both. It's very dependant but I don't have trouble writing guys or girls. It's easy for me to step into anyones shoes.

[Twinwillowsfarm]

I enjoy both male and female MCs in the books I read. What I dislike are female MCs who come across as masculine or macho. When I've run across that it's generally been in sci-fi and some fantasy books. If the genders start to run together, something is lost in the story, the tension maybe? I don't know. I hadn't thought about it until I read the question!

[JRainey]

I'm a female who likes reading about males and who more often than not writes from a male POV. I don't really know why that is. Most of my friends are guys, though. That might have something to do with it, but it also might not. *shrug*

Then again, I also like to read masculine literature. I'm that oddity amongst English majors who is female and would much rather read some Joseph Conrad than even touch Jane Austen. :P

The bottom line, of course, is: if it's a good story with a good, strong MC, gender doesn't matter to me. But I do normally fancy the men. :)

[misha_mcg]

I don't mind which gender I read about. I'm cool with either as long as they aren't vapid stereotypes.

In terms of writing, I tend to like to think about which gender would be more typical for the story/situation, and then go with the opposite. I'm not a big fan of "typical" and gender stereotypes.

[Jenifer]

I haven't got a preference when it comes to reading. Female MCs are all that have presented in my writing outside of multiple-MC situations, but I'm not actively avoiding the boys.

[legendary bum]

I'm female and I adore writing third-person male... I dunno, there's just something about it.

[SirOtter]

Not all women are blank.

I certainly hope not. I prefer a little definition here and there.

I can't imagine anything I would write with a female protagonist. I live with five females - wife, three daughters and one granddaughter. I escape from the ambient estrogen into my fictional world. It's my main access to the world of men, outside of work.

And yes, a lot of men don't read fiction because the publishing business for fiction does appear to be canted towards women. Most of my close male friends are reading non-fiction war books or nothing at all. There's a gold mine out there waiting for the next Tom Clancy, if the publishers and agents are only savvy enough to spot him. Here's a clue: He'll be the one not wearing a dress.

[K.L. Townsend]

I read and write both. For me, it really depends on the story. I've enjoyed both. :)

[Smish]

I'm not convinced there are more females than males, actually. I think it probably depends a lot on the genre.

But I like to read (and write) both. :)

[shadowwalker]

Well, I'm female, and I do read both, but I find myself leaning toward the male MC. I think it correlates to the amount of characterization frustration I feel - definitely hits the high-scale with female MCs. As others have said, when the women should be strong but morph into men with breasts, I can't take it. Or when women are bounced back and forth between being strong and then WHAM! their emotions suddenly pop up and they can't make a sane decision to save their lives.

On the other hand, I like my male MCs to be "all male" - if they're too "Modern Man" it makes me squeamish. ;)

[maestrowork]

What I don't like is a lot of introspection and navel gazing and internal monologue galore. And it seems like many books with female MCs tend to fall into that trap. So it's not about the gender, but how the book is written. I've put down a few books because the navel gazing was getting to me.

Or like someone said, when something didn't feel right: either they're men with breasts, or too girly (and expect the guys to save the day) to make me want to run away. I remember reading one with a female protagonist, written by a male, and something just didn't feel right. It felt like the protagonist was a guy but the author insisted on calling it "she."

[blacbird]

I know in the olden days of Dickens, Shakespeare, and classical literature, the main characters--and, indeed, the major authors--were almost always male.

I think "almost always" is a great exaggeration. No doubt there was a heavy male-oriented prejudice in the 19th Century, but:

Anna Karenina
Madame Bovary
Vanity Fair
Moll Flanders
Jane Eyre
Wuthering Heights
The Scarlet Letter

Jane Austen
George Eliot & George Sand (both of whom chose male pseudonyms to defeat publication prejudices)
The numerous Brontës
Kate Chopin
Mary Shelley


caw

[Lydia Sharp]

I read and write both. For me, it really depends on the story. I've enjoyed both. :)

Ditto.

[Cliff Face]

I prefer to write and prefer to read female MCs, and I'm male. I don't know why that is exactly...

I have nothing against the guys, but I don't like men in real life, so I guess that has something to do with my preference in fiction.

[Chasing the Horizon]

As a reader I tend to prefer male MCs because I usually identify with them more. I also get along better with men in real life, so that's not surprising.

As a writer, I create female characters I can identify with (which probably means most other women won't, but oh well). I write male MCs too. I write secondary-world fantasy with very different cultures, so the gender roles in my books are all twisted up anyway.

[Raphee]

Gender doesn't matter, story does.

Recent example of female MC in mainstream:
A thousand Splendid Suns...Khalid Husseni
Blind Assassin ...Margaret AAtwood.
The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara KingSolver.

[goddessofthehunt]

I've noticed that I generally read and write female MCs. I do have a few books on my shelf to read that have males. I don't really have a conscious preference. I'm not going be turned off a great story because the protagonist is the wrong gender.

My first novel, which I'm tentatively beginning the revision stage with, has a male MC in third person. I find it easier to write male MCs in third person than first. I am a bit worried that my MC is a little too sensitive, though. I'm also worried that his love interest likes the guys a little too much. We shall see...

[third person]

I'm a guy, but I like to write 3PL (third limited) females more. Why? Because I like stories about strong, capable women--and I am not talking about ones who are also insatiable hoebags on the side a la Anita Blake or really very girly when no one is looking a la Buffy. Talk about cop-out.

[10trackers]

I'm a guy, but I like to write 3PL (third limited) females more. Why? Because I like stories about strong, capable women--and I am not talking about ones who are also insatiable hoebags on the side a la Anita Blake or really very girly when no one is looking a la Buffy. Talk about cop-out.

Is there a particular reason why a strong, capable woman can't be girly?

[Cliff Face]

Yeah, I thought a lot of the charm of Buffy was that she was girly. If she wasn't she would've ended up like Kendra, and who'd want to watch 100 hours of that?

[10trackers]

Exactly. Plus, a multi-faceted character is much more fun and challenging to write and more interesting to read, in my opinion. There's no reason why a fictional character can't have contradictory character traits. Real people do... at least I do :D

[Varthikes]

I'm a guy, and I'm in the no-preference-as-long-as-the-story's-good club--and the characterizations are good.

In my writing, though, my main characters tend to be male. Though, I do have females in prominent roles. Interestingly, most of them tend to be aliens. That wasn't on purpose, just how it happened to work out.

[Satsya]

I don't have a preference for the protagonist's gender.

How much I like a character depends on how fleshed out and well-written they are by the author, which (ideally) has nothing to do with their gender.

The feeling of there being an abundance of female protagonists right now may be because of the fact that until recently, most all protagonists were indeed male. Realistically, I think the gender of protagonists, across all genres and mediums, is pretty close to 50-50 nowadays.

[Linda Adams]

The books might also be more noticeable because they weren't always available--and that's fairly recent. When I grew up, I desperately wanted books about girls in adventures. The best I could get was a girl tagalong who usually stood against the wall in terror while guy character got all the action. Anything where the girl was the star tended to be a romance or a nurse book.

Over time, I started seeing the books with women main characters creep in--heck, I looked for them. I'd latch onto anything that was in the genre I was writing in. I remember running into a few women characters, and they tended to act like men. But the success of urban fantasy has really made a big difference. I used to go into the bookstore and spend an hour trying to find one book with a woman character. Now I can head for the new releases and find several.

However, in one of the genres I like, there still isn't much, unless I want to read stories heavy with romance or women who act like guys.

Do I have a preference? Not as much any more, because I don't have to work to find the books.

[shaldna]

I think it's fairly well split to be honest. But I think it also depends on genre. There are more men writing Sci-fi and westerns than there are women. But more women writing UF and Romance novels.

[laurie17]

I read both. As long as they're good characters and the story's good, it doesn't matter to me :)
Strangely, my first two MCs had no name or gender. It was interesting to see people assume they were females because I'm a female writer (of course, these two books haven't even been edited XD).
In the third book, the MC just ended up male. I'm not sure how it happened, but it felt right so...

I guess overall, it's what suits the story/feel of the book best.

[sheadakota]

What I don't like is a lot of introspection and navel gazing and internal monologue galore. And it seems like many books with female MCs tend to fall into that trap. So it's not about the gender, but how the book is written. I've put down a few books because the navel gazing was getting to me.

Or like someone said, when something didn't feel right: either they're men with breasts, or too girly (and expect the guys to save the day) to make me want to run away. I remember reading one with a female protagonist, written by a male, and something just didn't feel right. It felt like the protagonist was a guy but the author insisted on calling it "she."

Okay- I feel really stoopid but what exactly is naval gazing?

Oh and I'm female and prefer to read and write about male MCs- for what it's worth :)

[Jamesaritchie]

I know in the olden days of Dickens, Shakespeare, and classical literature, the main characters--and, indeed, the major authors--were almost always male. But today it seems like a majority of authors are female, as are main characters.

It's possible that I feel this way because the majority of what I read includes females as an MC because I'm a woman, but I can't help but think of all of the novels that are best-sellers and how, with a few exceptions, they tend to revolve around women.

Is it possible that everyone was clamoring for female MCs and now we have an overabundance of them?

Do you have a preference for reading a male or female protag?

There were a lot more women writers in the past than many realize, even during Shakespeare's day. They flourished during the 19th century, and were all over the 20th, so I'm not sure there ever has been a shortage of women writers and female MCs.

Today, I think what you enjoy reading colors perception. I'd say at least 95% of the books I read have male protagonists, and many of the others have a male and a female lead, or so many POV characters that it's sometimes difficult to tell who plays the MC.

[Phaeal]

Samuel Richardson, sometimes called the father of the modern novel, is most famous for Pamela (1740) and Clarissa (1748). A little later, Jane Austen did pretty well with female MCs, many of whom enjoyed reading all those "horrid" Gothic novels featuring female MCs. Arguably, the MC of Dickens' sprawling masterpiece, Bleak House, is Esther Summerson.

Just a very few examples from the olden days.

[kuwisdelu]

I have no preference for gender. I suppose most things I read end up with a male protagonist, but I've read plenty with a female.

I don't have much of a preference for genre, either, so that could play a part.

[unicornjam]

i don't think we can have an overabundance of stories about women. :x

and i don't have any preferences; my reading list is split 50/50. my stories tend to be about men, though.

[ClaudiaGray]

The proportion of male MCs to female MCs is much more balanced that the proportion of male readers to female readers -- there are LOTS more women who read books than who star in them. Essentially, women, by and large, are willing to read about male or female MCs; men, by and large, stick more to male MCs. There are a lot of theories about why that is, but the general rule holds up. Also, some of the genres that tend to draw more female readership/have female MCs, like romance, are among the very sturdiest sellers.

[maestrowork]

Is there a particular reason why a strong, capable woman can't be girly?

Score!

It seems like there's a subtle sexism going on here, that to be "strong and capable" someone must act like a man. That is to say, men are stronger and capable than women -- so it's for women to imitate men...

Right...

[shadowwalker]

Score!

It seems like there's a subtle sexism going on here, that to be "strong and capable" someone must act like a man. That is to say, men are stronger and capable than women -- so it's for women to imitate men...

Right...

I think it's more the connotation "girly" brings up, at least for me - someone who gets silly-excited over fashion, jewelry, movie stars, yada yada yada. So immaturity coupled with lack of common sense - which means a female character I hope gets killed off in the first chapter.

Now, a strong woman who's feminine - that's a horse of a different color.

[Lady Ice]

I'm a female who loves reading and writing about male protagonists (although I'm not averse to female ones- Greek tragic heroines are brilliant. Anybody who wants to read about strong women, go read a Greek tragedy). Part of it is trying to escape from feminism- i.e. if it's written by a woman and has a female protagonist and isn't romance, it's assumed that you're trying to be feminist.
A university English literature course described a module as being Gender- gender and sexuality, etc. I had a strong inkling that it was code for feminism and so I asked a prof if I could, for example, write about masculinity. He knew that it was code as well.

Some readers seem to view men as a sort of default- if you hadn't read the blurb, most people would assume that the narrator was the same gender as the writer. The plus point about default is that you can focus on the story without people wondering why you've dared to written about a gender they hadn't expected you'd write.

My female characters are normally relatively strong but preventing them from being the protagonist helps me to not fall into the trap of Mary-Sue-ism.

[blacbird]

Is there a particular reason why a strong, capable woman can't be girly?

There's no reason why a strong, capable man can't be girly.

caw

[Twinwillowsfarm]

Now, a strong woman who's feminine - that's a horse of a different color.

Exactly! I'm not interested in guys with boobs. :/ But I love a strong feminine character with an IQ. :)

[DustyBooks]

Men and women are different. Trying to be unrealistically gender-neutral isn't much better than going for extreme stereotypes.



Not sure why it didn't quote the post you were quoting when I quoted you. I think the point they were making was that sometimes writers can work really hard to emphasize a character's masculinity or femininity, to the point that there can be parts of the novel where it looks like it's more important that that character is a man than that he's himself, or more important that that character is a woman than that she's herself.

In other writing forums (not so much here) I've seen lots of people asking for advice on writing from the POV of the opposite sex. In reply, it's sometimes said that you write true to the character, that'll come through.

I'm female and read and write mostly male protagonists.

[shadowwalker]

Stereotypes are bad, but it's also bad to act as if men and women are the same, and that masculinity and femininity are just archaic notions that can be safely ignored (I remember many people saying something like this in past threads discussing the subject). That doesn't result in believable characters either.

Gotta agree with you on that. A lot of people seem to think they can write a male character, give it a female name, and claim it's just a "strong woman" - or at least, their writing seems to indicate that.

[kaitie]

I'm a girl who prefers writing men. I have written a couple of important female characters, though I haven't written a female MC in ages. I'm more likely to read guys, too, but it doesn't influence whether or not I pick up a book at all. It's not like I look and say "Oh this cool sounding book has a chick MC? No way!" Part of it is the genre I read most often, which tends to have more male leads.

In any case, I'm not necessarily opposed to writing women, and I have a couple of stories in the burner cooking with female MCs, but it is a lot harder for me. I think it's because I've never felt like I could relate to other women on the whole. Seems like I've always had more guy friends. Interestingly, I remember doing a little survey thing once in a psychology class in college that was supposed to demonstrate differences in the way men and women process information, and I actually fit more into the male style than the female style. That might have something to do with it as well.

[DustyBooks]

I didn't mean to imply that a character's gender can be ignored. Just that in a given situation the first question should be "what would Caroline do?" not "what would a woman do?" Gender is obviously one of the first things we think of when we create characters, but it shouldn't be the very first thing a writer thinks of when deciding how the character is going to act or react in most situations. Most situations.

[ClaudiaGray]

I didn't mean to imply that a character's gender can be ignored. Just that in a given situation the first question should be "what would Caroline do?" not "what would a woman do?" Gender is obviously one of the first things we think of when we create characters, but it shouldn't be the very first thing a writer thinks of when deciding how the character is going to act or react in most situations. Most situations.

QFT. Even very good writers (of both genders) can fall into the trap of trying to make any character of the opposite sex a Man/Woman first and an individual second. The otherwise unbelievably excellent THE BRIEF WONDROUS LIFE OF OSCAR WAO had richly developed, three-dimensional men ... and a number of women, every single one of which was described as though the size of her breasts told you everything you needed to know about her. He added more details to the women's characterizations too, but they were clearly Women (or, at any rate, Breasts) first, individuals second.

[Satsya]

(Must have tried posting this simultaneously with Claudia -- had the browser flake out on me. Let's try this post again.)

In agreement with DustyBooks and Claudia:

Your character has a gender, yes -- but your character is more than just their gender.

It's the same as making a gay or black character, and claiming that every single thing they do in life should be centered around the fact that they are gay or black -- no exceptions. That is the reasoning behind many a superficial character.

[willietheshakes]

In other writing forums (not so much here) I've seen lots of people asking for advice on writing from the POV of the opposite sex. In reply, it's sometimes said that you write true to the character, that'll come through.


*checks*

Ah. New to these parts.

[DrZoidberg]

I prefer reading stories with female MC's. Being a woman is more complicated than being a man. [insert patriarchal oppression, pregnancy, fluctuating emotional states and so on and so forth.] Basically... life as a women is more fun to read about and leaves more room for conflicts to resolve.

When I write my MC's are both men and women (depending on what the story needs) and all my MC's are all deeply flawed and irrational. That's how I like them. I don't have bad guy's, only screw ups.

[10trackers]

This thread is touching on a pet peeve of mine. So don't mind me while I elaborate. :D

In my opinion, the biggest problem I see with characters as they are often written is that writers don't take into account that every person (male or female) has multiple facets to their personality. It is highly unlikely that a strong and capable person is that way under any circumstances, at any given time. This is most persistent with female characters, but I see it in male MCs as well. It's the main reason I have trouble finishing or even getting into books lately.

Let me take myself as an example. If you ask anyone, I would be a typical strong, capable female in real life. I can handle everything life throws at me, and have handled a lot. I have my own company, I am a politician, and I juggle social activities and work with a spring in my step. I love everything I do, and I am good at everything I do. Yet, romantically and sexually, I tend to the insecure side. Plus, tell me a sad animal story and I'll weep all over your freshly pressed shirt for days.

But if I were a female MC in a novel and this backstory was created for me, the author would have made me forward and aggressive romantically and sexually. Why? Because I am a strong and capable female, who apparently can't have any 'weaker' character traits.

And exactly that is why I don't really like most female MCs as written nowadays. They seem cardboard cut-outs. They're either 'strong and capable' or 'meek and shy', and even if there's a middle road, the middle road is taken in all their traits, which is ridiculous when you compare it to how 'real people' function.

My friend P is the textbook definition of a shy girl. And that means she will not speak up even when the plot asks for it, no matter how inconvenient to the writer. My friend A is the textbook definition of a bitchy, overly assertive chick, but I'm fairly sure she wouldn't throw around insults when undergoing torture, no matter how funny it sounds in your head. ;)

My point is, I would love to see more real female personalities in books. Get rid of the clichés. Be as true to real life as you can get. Even if it is fiction, you are writing about humans or human-esque creatures. Even strong warrior women have flaws (if not, do a Mary Sue test and for God's sake, get rid of the violet eyes). Find them. If you use them well, they'll make your warrior woman stronger and at the very least easier to relate to.

Most of this goes for male MCs as well. They just seem to have less extremes, probably because of the age-old belief that nobody wants to read about a meek and shy dude. :D

I think it's more the connotation "girly" brings up, at least for me - someone who gets silly-excited over fashion, jewelry, movie stars, yada yada yada. So immaturity coupled with lack of common sense - which means a female character I hope gets killed off in the first chapter.

Now, a strong woman who's feminine - that's a horse of a different color.

Strong and capable women can be girly. Some of us have been known to go gaga over a pair of shoes :D While I can see the immature at times, I don't see how girly brings about a connotation of 'lack of common sense', though. That's a trait that anyone can have (burly, masculine hero jumping into a fight and leaving his protégé unprotected, for example, to mention yet another cliché), it's not limited to the girly set.

A strong, feminine woman and a strong, girly woman are two completely different women, though, and I dare say the latter seems more interesting to delve into. What made her the way she is? What made her so she is capable of letting her inner child out every now and then and rejoice in a way that other people might label immature?

To me, the other woman sounds a bit boring :D

[defcon6000]

I've seen to many female black belt holders get their asses kick in seconds by men who never took a martial arts lesson in their lives to buy any of it.

The purpose of martial arts is to teach a woman to hurt a man just enough to get the hell out of there before he kills her.
I have to agree. I had a friend who was a 2nd degree black belt and even she admitted she wasn't a match for a 6 foot guy.

It sucks, but testosterone does bend the favor towards men in a fight.

As for me, I find myself reading more male MC's, but I think it's because I also mainly read sci-fi by male authors. But in writing, I write both male and female protagonists, although I always make my females pretty tough in a Kill Bill sort of way. :tongue

[10trackers]

Men are far stronger than women, and even the average man can kick a trained woman's ass in a real fight. I like female leads, but when they win a fight, it had better be with a weapon. Women can win with a weapon, or with surprise, or when they outsmart a man, or when they have Buffy's super strength and supernatural coordination, but female leads that go around kicking ass through sheer fighting ability instantly turn a book into a wall-banger for me.

I've seen too many female black belt holders get their asses kick in seconds by men who never took a martial arts lesson in their lives to buy any of it.


This.

Be true to real life, people. 'S all I'm asking :D

[OneWriter]

I know in the olden days of Dickens, Shakespeare, and classical literature, the main characters--and, indeed, the major authors--were almost always male. But today it seems like a majority of authors are female, as are main characters.



Right now the publishing world is pushing for female MC's. The idea is that a female MC is sexier. Don't ask me why, I'm a woman and don't mind (at all) a sexy man as MC. Anyways, I know this from first hand: my MC is a man and my editor, when she had my ms in her hands the first time, stripped all the "he" and turned them into "she". She did that for about two chapters and then gave up, and I'm glad she did.

But yeah, there's a lot of pressure in the publishing world right now to have ladies lead the story.

[DrZoidberg]

This thread is touching on a pet peeve of mine. So don't mind me while I elaborate. :D

In my opinion, the biggest problem I see with characters as they are often written is that writers don't take into account that every person (male or female) has multiple facets to their personality. It is highly unlikely that a strong and capable person is that way under any circumstances, at any given time. This is most persistent with female characters, but I see it in male MCs as well. It's the main reason I have trouble finishing or even getting into books lately.

Let me take myself as an example. If you ask anyone, I would be a typical strong, capable female in real life. I can handle everything life throws at me, and have handled a lot. I have my own company, I am a politician, and I juggle social activities and work with a spring in my step. I love everything I do, and I am good at everything I do. Yet, romantically and sexually, I tend to the insecure side. Plus, tell me a sad animal story and I'll weep all over your freshly pressed shirt for days.

But if I were a female MC in a novel and this backstory was created for me, the author would have made me forward and aggressive romantically and sexually. Why? Because I am a strong and capable female, who apparently can't have any 'weaker' character traits.

And exactly that is why I don't really like most female MCs as written nowadays. They seem cardboard cut-outs. They're either 'strong and capable' or 'meek and shy', and even if there's a middle road, the middle road is taken in all their traits, which is ridiculous when you compare it to how 'real people' function.

My friend P is the textbook definition of a shy girl. And that means she will not speak up even when the plot asks for it, no matter how inconvenient to the writer. My friend A is the textbook definition of a bitchy, overly assertive chick, but I'm fairly sure she wouldn't throw around insults when undergoing torture, no matter how funny it sounds in your head. ;)

My point is, I would love to see more real female personalities in books. Get rid of the clichés. Be as true to real life as you can get. Even if it is fiction, you are writing about humans or human-esque creatures. Even strong warrior women have flaws (if not, do a Mary Sue test and for God's sake, get rid of the violet eyes). Find them. If you use them well, they'll make your warrior woman stronger and at the very least easier to relate to.

Most of this goes for male MCs as well. They just seem to have less extremes, probably because of the age-old belief that nobody wants to read about a meek and shy dude. :D



Strong and capable women can be girly. Some of us have been known to go gaga over a pair of shoes :D While I can see the immature at times, I don't see how girly brings about a connotation of 'lack of common sense', though. That's a trait that anyone can have (burly, masculine hero jumping into a fight and leaving his protégé unprotected, for example, to mention yet another cliché), it's not limited to the girly set.

A strong, feminine woman and a strong, girly woman are two completely different women, though, and I dare say the latter seems more interesting to delve into. What made her the way she is? What made her so she is capable of letting her inner child out every now and then and rejoice in a way that other people might label immature?

To me, the other woman sounds a bit boring :D

Hmm.... Aren't you just riling against flat characters now? I mean, stereotypes are always bad.

[Phaeal]

Men are far stronger than women, and even the average man can kick a trained woman's ass in a real fight. I like female leads, but when they win a fight, it had better be with a weapon. Women can win with a weapon, or with surprise, or when they outsmart a man, or when the have Buffy's super strength and supernatural coordination, but female leads that go around kicking ass through sheer fighting ability instantly turn a book into a wall-banger for me.

I've seen to many female black belt holders get their asses kick in seconds by men who never took a martial arts lesson in their lives to buy any of it.

The purpose of martial arts is to teach a woman to hurt a man just enough to get the hell out of there before he kills her.

This is why only women should be allowed to own knives. And guns. And nukes. And Y-chromosome specific biological weapons.

;)

[10trackers]

Hmm.... Aren't you just riling against flat characters now? I mean, stereotypes are always bad.

Most of the female characters I read are flat, yes. Which is a more concise way of saying what I just posted, so thanks for that :D Yes, stereotypes are always bad, but why are there so many people writing them?

Why is it that so many people say they're not writing stereotypical female characters because they're writing tough-as-nails female warriors? That type of character has come to be as clichéd as any other.

But even non-flat characters that are not true to life irk me. I just want the characters I read about to have real flaws, real traits and real, relatable personalities. That doesn't mean they have to be everywoman, it means there is at least one aspect in everybody's personality that's 'weak'. At least one, likely a lot more.

I'm not explaining this like I should. I blame either my migraine or the migraine meds.

[shadowwalker]

Strong and capable women can be girly. Some of us have been known to go gaga over a pair of shoes :D While I can see the immature at times, I don't see how girly brings about a connotation of 'lack of common sense', though. That's a trait that anyone can have (burly, masculine hero jumping into a fight and leaving his protégé unprotected, for example, to mention yet another cliché), it's not limited to the girly set.

A strong, feminine woman and a strong, girly woman are two completely different women, though, and I dare say the latter seems more interesting to delve into. What made her the way she is? What made her so she is capable of letting her inner child out every now and then and rejoice in a way that other people might label immature?

To me, the other woman sounds a bit boring :D

I think it's the semantics here. "Girly" = girl = child = equals immature, lacking in common sense, lacking in controls, etc. Nothing says a feminine female can't let out the inner child - she just doesn't lose brain function when she does. The "girly" women are the characters that drive me up a wall. It says that women can't be adults and still be fun. That in order to be "fun" they have to act childish.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned re: women fighting is that women overall (not wanting to get into the stereotyping bit here ;) ) tend to have more stamina than men. Men can fight harder, but for shorter periods of time. At least, according to various reports and discussions I've read over time.

Pitting a man against a woman, man against man, woman against woman, the outcome will be determined by a combination of size, strength and skill. My brother was trying to learn judo on his own, and used my sister as his partner. My sister picked up on it faster and had him on the floor every time. Then he went into the Marines - no contest after that.

[DrZoidberg]

Most of the female characters I read are flat, yes. Which is a more concise way of saying what I just posted, so thanks for that :D Yes, stereotypes are always bad, but why are there so many people writing them?

Why is it that so many people say they're not writing stereotypical female characters because they're writing tough-as-nails female warriors? That type of character has come to be as clichéd as any other.

But even non-flat characters that are not true to life irk me. I just want the characters I read about to have real flaws, real traits and real, relatable personalities. That doesn't mean they have to be everywoman, it means there is at least one aspect in everybody's personality that's 'weak'. At least one, likely a lot more.

I'm not explaining this like I should. I blame either my migraine or the migraine meds.

I think I get what you mean. Could this be something along the lines of, back in the bad old days female oppression was norm and women in literature where habitually portrayed as the weaker sex. Then we got feminism, and the big hole in female character portrayal was quickly filled, by the opposite extreme. So the fantasy of female inferiority was replaced by the fantasy of female superiority, which of course rings just as falsely to the reader. We all have our good and bad sides. Ignoring this makes for a boring character no matter what we're trying to show with our story. Is that what you're trying to say?

[10trackers]

We all have our good and bad sides. Ignoring this makes for a boring character no matter what we're trying to show with our story. Is that what you're trying to say?

More or less. I think your reasoning behind it is fairly sound. I'm just trying to point out that someone who has a medium temperament (for example) will not respond with that same medium temperament in every situation. There will be issues he or she will feel stronger about, or couldn't care less about, or situations in which his or her emotional reactions are mellowed or heightened. Same goes for someone with a strong personality, there will always be issues that he or she will have difficulty dealing with. That doesn't detract from their strength, if anything, it adds to it because they dealt with the trauma and lived. Which makes a stronger person (IMO) than one who hasn't.

To me, it seems that, especially with strong characters, any such flaws are seen as 'weakening' the character and thus unacceptable to the writer (or maybe the editor or publisher, who knows?). The flaws I encounter most in novels with such characters are comparable to people saying "I have the tendency to work too hard" in job interviews. That's not a flawed hero/heroine.

I think my point lies somewhere in there :D Thanks for bearing with me!

Sometimes it's not about being realistic. Buffy is a good example. Was seeing the petite Sarah Michelle Gellar destroy a bunch of adult men a realistic portrayal of teenage girls? No, but audiences certainly enjoyed it anyway.


The situation was obviously not realistic, but we're not talking about situations. In my opinion, Buffy's personality and character traits were very much so. She was jealous and petty, sometimes dumb as bricks, shallow and stubborn, but also kind, self-sacrificing, loving and very brave. Plus, her character showed huge growth within the total arc of the show. Just like in 'real life', not always in the right/'morally preferable' direction, but growth is growth. That, to me, was the beauty of Buffy/Joss Whedon's worlds.

[10trackers]

I think it's the semantics here. "Girly" = girl = child = equals immature, lacking in common sense, lacking in controls, etc. Nothing says a feminine female can't let out the inner child - she just doesn't lose brain function when she does. The "girly" women are the characters that drive me up a wall. It says that women can't be adults and still be fun. That in order to be "fun" they have to act childish.


Okay, I was going by a different definition of girly in my head. Then we're on the same page :D

[beardtato]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned re: women fighting is that women overall (not wanting to get into the stereotyping bit here ;) ) tend to have more stamina than men. Men can fight harder, but for shorter periods of time. At least, according to various reports and discussions I've read over time.
Even if this were true, it would not matter because the fight would be over so quickly.

[Birol]

Oh, look. Here's the mod to close the thread for review. I know we're all surprised.

[Birol]

Reopening thread. Sorry for the delay.

[proxy]

So if your novels MC is female, your chances of getting published are higher?

[lucidzfl]

So if your novels MC is female, your chances of getting published are higher?

you're going to get the thread locked again genius.

lol

[Cyia]

Right now, female MC's are more popular in YA. Tomorrow that could change. Someone's going to write an ultra-popular YA with a guy in the lead and then the trend will swing so that you're seeing guys everywhere.

[proxy]

Lol sorry I didnt even read most of the thread.

[Birol]

The thing is, there are so many YA female characters and so many YA books geared toward female readers, that YA males are not reading. If men do not read as YA, they're less likely to read as adults. And where does that leave writers of adult fiction?

[Chasing the Horizon]

This thread is touching on a pet peeve of mine. So don't mind me while I elaborate. :D

In my opinion, the biggest problem I see with characters as they are often written is that writers don't take into account that every person (male or female) has multiple facets to their personality. It is highly unlikely that a strong and capable person is that way under any circumstances, at any given time. This is most persistent with female characters, but I see it in male MCs as well. It's the main reason I have trouble finishing or even getting into books lately.

Let me take myself as an example. If you ask anyone, I would be a typical strong, capable female in real life. I can handle everything life throws at me, and have handled a lot. I have my own company, I am a politician, and I juggle social activities and work with a spring in my step. I love everything I do, and I am good at everything I do. Yet, romantically and sexually, I tend to the insecure side. Plus, tell me a sad animal story and I'll weep all over your freshly pressed shirt for days.

But if I were a female MC in a novel and this backstory was created for me, the author would have made me forward and aggressive romantically and sexually. Why? Because I am a strong and capable female, who apparently can't have any 'weaker' character traits.

And exactly that is why I don't really like most female MCs as written nowadays. They seem cardboard cut-outs. They're either 'strong and capable' or 'meek and shy', and even if there's a middle road, the middle road is taken in all their traits, which is ridiculous when you compare it to how 'real people' function.

My friend P is the textbook definition of a shy girl. And that means she will not speak up even when the plot asks for it, no matter how inconvenient to the writer. My friend A is the textbook definition of a bitchy, overly assertive chick, but I'm fairly sure she wouldn't throw around insults when undergoing torture, no matter how funny it sounds in your head. ;)

My point is, I would love to see more real female personalities in books. Get rid of the clichés. Be as true to real life as you can get. Even if it is fiction, you are writing about humans or human-esque creatures. Even strong warrior women have flaws (if not, do a Mary Sue test and for God's sake, get rid of the violet eyes). Find them. If you use them well, they'll make your warrior woman stronger and at the very least easier to relate to.

Most of this goes for male MCs as well. They just seem to have less extremes, probably because of the age-old belief that nobody wants to read about a meek and shy dude. :D



Strong and capable women can be girly. Some of us have been known to go gaga over a pair of shoes :D While I can see the immature at times, I don't see how girly brings about a connotation of 'lack of common sense', though. That's a trait that anyone can have (burly, masculine hero jumping into a fight and leaving his protégé unprotected, for example, to mention yet another cliché), it's not limited to the girly set.

A strong, feminine woman and a strong, girly woman are two completely different women, though, and I dare say the latter seems more interesting to delve into. What made her the way she is? What made her so she is capable of letting her inner child out every now and then and rejoice in a way that other people might label immature?

To me, the other woman sounds a bit boring :D
This is a problem with a lot of male characters too, and I fully agree that it's annoying, like the writer got a list of all the traits a 'strong' character's supposed to have and then wrote exactly that. All my characters have traits that are at least superficially contradictory. I've gotten a lot of comments from my beta-readers on how 'cool' it is that my characters don't do the expected things. My favorite characters in books have the same kind of thing going on.

you're going to get the thread locked again genius.

lol
Eh, if anyone gets the thread locked again it'll probably be me. :D I think the feelings of the publishing industry towards the gender of the MC are relevant to this thread, since it influences what we end up reading.

[proxy]

Are we talking about a 2% higher chance of getting published if your character is female? Or something higher like 10-20%? Any guesses?

Also, why would talking about this lock the thread? who cares?

[IdiotsRUs]

Are we talking about a 2% higher chance of getting published if your character is female? Or something higher like 10-20%? Any guesses?

Just write a good novel. If you write it, they will come.

Also, why would talking about this lock the thread? who cares?

It's been locked once already



Sorry Birol. *looks contrite*

[backslashbaby]

I can't fight your average guy, but I am a match for your average guy my size or smaller (5' 6-7, so men on whole have got me there). My sister is, too. We're just built very muscularly naturally (big-boned German ox-roping gals ;)).

So having 'a girl' kick 'a guy's' ass seems very realistic to me. The big burly dude? No, not him, but look around and I bet you'll spot a few guys many girls could take.

I have a few female friends with the "Teela thighs" thing, too. We're not all slight and delicate :) Don't let averages skew your view of individuals. My skinny brother was never a threat until he took Kung Fu.

Were these Martial Arts girls y'all knew little or big? Methinks muscle is still the biggest factor (along with skill).

[Chasing the Horizon]

I can't fight your average guy, but I am a match for your average guy my size or smaller (5' 6-7, so men on whole have got me there). My sister is, too. We're just built very muscularly naturally (big-boned German ox-roping gals ;)).

So having 'a girl' kick 'a guy's' ass seems very realistic to me. The big burly dude? No, not him, but look around and I bet you'll spot a few guys many girls could take.

I have a few female friends with the "Teela thighs" thing, too. We're not all slight and delicate :) Don't let averages skew your view of individuals. My skinny brother was never a threat until he took Kung Fu.

Were these Martial Arts girls y'all knew little or big? Methinks muscle is still the biggest factor (along with skill).
Heh, I'm a big-boned German gal too. I had 2" and 30 pounds on my ex-bf and could kick his ass easily (came in handy).

In my books fights almost always come down to skill, speed, and luck. Size and strength would only be determining factors if everyone were untrained and unarmed, which is never the case.

In real life people tend to back down when they realize you have a weapon, know how to use it, and are too angry to give a fuck about going to jail. Funny thing, really. :D

[Shadow Dragon]

In hand the hand, yeah size makes a big difference. For instance, if you take the best boxer in the world at a small weight class and have him face an average heavyweight, he'll probably lose. But it's not always the case, just the majority. For an example of that, watch some really old UFC footage. They used to do open-weight tournaments (as in no weight class) and some really skilled small guys did beat larger fighters. So if she's like an nth degree blackbelt in something, she would stand a chance.

[Phaeal]

Right now, female MC's are more popular in YA. Tomorrow that could change. Someone's going to write an ultra-popular YA with a guy in the lead and then the trend will swing so that you're seeing guys everywhere.

[Raises hand and waves frantically] Me! Me! I've got a YA male MC! Oh call on meeeeeeeee!!

:D

[beardtato]

So having 'a girl' kick 'a guy's' ass seems very realistic to me.
That's because you're delusional and don't know what you're talking about.

In my books fights almost always come down to skill, speed, and luck. Size and strength would only be determining factors if everyone were untrained and unarmed, which is never the case.
Size and strength are important regardless of skill level. Also, most people don't carry a weapon or have martial arts training.

In real life people tend to back down when they realize you have a weapon, know how to use it, and are too angry to give a fuck about going to jail. Funny thing, really. :DA weapon is not a magic wand and is not applicable to every situation.

[Birol]

You know what, Beardtato, that's it. You need to learn to learn our governing rule: Respect your fellow writer. It's one thing to attack a person's arguments; it's quite another to attack them. I let the personal insults to me in PM slide past, mostly because they were off-the-mark and I'm distracted by personal stuff right now, but you absolutely, positively, do not get to wade in here yet again, after I've already taken the time and energy to clean up your past misogynistic pot-stirring, and call other members 'delusional' just because they do not see the world exactly as you do. You've just bought yourself a week off. Use it to get to know how this board functions if you have any intention of coming back. Otherwise, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[lucidzfl]

Tell 'em birol! Get mean.

GET NASTY!

:D

[backslashbaby]

I bet he's a scrawny little tiny guy, too.




Kidding!!! ;) :D :D

[Cyia]

The thing about fight scenes is that they don't have a baseline. There's no formula for anyone to win in any situation, which is why "underdogs" can excel against someone who by appearance and skill level should be able to wipe the floor with them. It depends on terrain, skill level, and even luck. And don't underestimate attitude, either.

The fact of nature is that females are aggressive and territorial and can hold their own in most cases. In humans, this has been tramped down a bit by gender conditioning that tells girls to be one way and boys to be another, but the number of female children who play with GI Joe and the number of males who'll grab mom's high heels for dress up is enough to show you that the conditioning isn't something boys and girls are born with. (There's a picture of me and my male cousin when we were 3&4 years old, playing with my grandfather. I've got Duke Nukem, he's got Wonder Woman, and we were both happy with our toys.)

Size isn't even necessarily a deterrent from success in physical confrontation. The same reason a 4'10" fifteen year old girl excels at gymnastics while her 5'10" friend doesn't is the same reason an ant can lift their body weight over their heads. The ratios of their shorter limbs give them an advantage in speed and control, as well as strength. It has to do with torque and turning ratios. I'm about 4'11", and I was able to pick up my 6'6" cousin from the time I was about 12 - when I stopped growing. In phys ed, I was one of the only two girls (the other also a "shorty") who could lift the presses in the weight room, most of them couldn't even lift the empty bar.

[MAP]

Any guy who thinks a skilled female fighter can't beat your average male should go head to head with a professional female boxer. Even if he is bigger than her, I doubt he would last a full round.

[Cyia]

Any guy who think a skilled female fighter can't beat your average male should go head to head with a professional female boxer. Even if he is bigger than her, I doubt he would last a full round.

Considering your average male has no idea how to punch someone "correctly", that's a safe assumption. Most guys hit in a way that would break both their thumbs and their knuckles, and they don't aim their punches. Most guys also have no clue how to maximize the momentum behind a punch, and so punch straight out. Anyone with any sort of training knows better.

[backslashbaby]

Yeah, I broke my index finger the first time I punched someone in the face. I broke their nose and cheekbone, though, so I still won, dammit :)

:) It was self-defense; relax :)

[eqb]

[Raises hand and waves frantically] Me! Me! I've got a YA male MC! Oh call on meeeeeeeee!!:D

So do I! Publication date is next summer!

[Birol]

Tell 'em birol! Get mean.

GET NASTY!

:D

NOTE: When a woman tells someone not to let the door hit them in the ass, she's being emotional and hysterical. If a man does it, he's taking control of the situation and being assertive.

[aadams73]

Yeah, I broke my index finger the first time I punched someone in the face. I broke their nose and cheekbone, though, so I still won, dammit :)

:) It was self-defense; relax :)

Damn, you go girl! :D

I just realized I'm facebook "friends" with the first person I ever knocked out. He's either forgiven me or plotting some horrific revenge.

[mscelina]

The last time I got in a fight with a guy, I ripped a post out of the banister on the staircase and broke his nose with it. *shrug* He hit me first. I figured it was fair.

Anyone who is silly enough to think that men are automatically superior to women in strength doesn't have the sense to realize that pure unadulterated anger can empower anyone. I defy any man to tell me that I can't defend myself and mine if I need to.

Right on, Birol. You go sister. Here *hands her the banister post* I save this for you.

By the way, don't screw with Birol. She's one of those martial arts expert types and can totally kick your ass...just an fyi...

[Cyia]

I'd also like to point out that while a teacher/principal will get in the middle of two guys fighting and break them up, they're much more reluctant to get in the middle of two girls. At our school, two girls were considered a much more vicious and dangerous scenario for an outsider to intervene.

And if it's a guy and a girl, they wouldn't intervene, either. Usually the girl would stop attacking the guy (if it was a boyfriend) long enough to attack the person trying to pull them apart, and then go back to her original target.

[shadowwalker]

Considering your average male has no idea how to punch someone "correctly", that's a safe assumption. Most guys hit in a way that would break both their thumbs and their knuckles, and they don't aim their punches. Most guys also have no clue how to maximize the momentum behind a punch, and so punch straight out. Anyone with any sort of training knows better.

I had three brothers and grew up in a neighborhood with 2 (count 'em) other females. Knowing how to fight dirty was a matter of survival! :D

[Slushie]

"Reality" is over-rated; that's why I like these Fictional Novel things.

I don't give a shit--and I doubt I'm the only one--about what women and men supposedly can and cannot physically do in real life.

I just want to be entertained. Period. And I'd be entertained by a five-foot, one-hundred-twenty-pound girl doing some stiletto ninja moves on a frothing, 'roided-up dude. But that may just be me.

Stereotypes are intellectually lazy and boring. People who encourage stereotypical characterization in fiction are also being intellectually lazy, and are probably not well read.

As far as the OP goes: I like reading both. Most of the writing I do--aside from short stories--involves dual perspectives, one from each gender. Every human (human!) emotion translates between the genders, so I'm not sure there's a major difference between writing a female POV and a male POV once it comes down to the core emotional characteristics that can drive the plot. Maybe there is, and I'm too dense to realize it.

But just give me interesting characters and I'm fine.

[Jamie Stone]

Yikes, start a thread and forget to check it for a few days, and it all goes to hell in a handbasket... :crazy:

I can actually only think of a very few books I've ever read for personal (non-academic) reasons with a male MC. Alas, Babylon, Harry Potter, The Giver, and... that's really all I can think of right now. There might be more.

I think it's because when I was in high school (listen to me, two years out and now it's "back in MY day...") I wanted to read about strong female characters, the kind of woman I wanted to be. It was all about trying to find myself in fantasy adventures with young women with powers I wished I could have, etc. I'd also never really known any boys/men except for my own step-father, who is about as far from a good male role model as can be, and my father, who I admit I don't know that well, so it was terribly hard to get into the mindset of a male protag.

These days I know my boyfriend of almost three years about as well as I know myself, and I think my understanding of men and the male psyche has improved vastly. I suspect I'd be more receptive to reading a male protag now, especially considering that one of the works I'm fiddling with has several young male MCs.

[swvaughn]

The thing is, there are so many YA female characters and so many YA books geared toward female readers, that YA males are not reading. If men do not read as YA, they're less likely to read as adults. And where does that leave writers of adult fiction?

<----has a male protagonist in her novel that just came out yesterday *sniff*

It's not YA. Am I safe?

(You all are frightening me :tongue)

[lucidzfl]

NOTE: When a woman tells someone not to let the door hit them in the ass, she's being emotional and hysterical. If a man does it, he's taking control of the situation and being assertive.

The secondary MC in my story is a female hacker lesbian who is smarter and richer than either of the two male MC's in the story.

You ain't gotta tell me bout equality!

[Chasing the Horizon]

Yikes, start a thread and forget to check it for a few days, and it all goes to hell in a handbasket... :crazy:
Heh, if you want to see the rest of it mosey on down to the landfill. It's entertaining. :D

By the way, don't screw with Birol. She's one of those martial arts expert types and can totally kick your ass...just an fyi...
*smiles innocently and starts backing out of thread, only to trip over the bloody banister post someone left laying on the floor*

[justarandomname47]

I'm a female and I read and write both, but I prefer to read/write female. I have noticed a growing trend for female MC's but that may be the genres I read.

[Medievalist]

People

You're causing me pain. Let's not confuse sex, with social roles, and gender.

They are intertwingled, but are not identical.

[Satsya]

Heh, if you want to see the rest of it mosey on down to the landfill. It's entertaining. :D


Oh goodie, now everyone can see me get sworn at over tea and cakes for all eternity (or until that thread disappears). And me only with 40-something posts so far!

On the other hand, I like the word 'intertwingled'. It cheers me right back up. :D

[mscelina]

Intertwingled? That sounds like a promiscuous position in a Twister game. :D

[kaitie]

<----has a male protagonist in her novel that just came out yesterday *sniff*

It's not YA. Am I safe?

(You all are frightening me :tongue)

Woohoo about the book coming out! :D Congrats.

In response to Birol's comment about boys not reading YA and thus not reading...do we have evidence to show that? I'm just wondering because I didn't read YA. I was a huge reader, and to be honest I wasn't fond of books that were my "age group." I might have read a few when I was eleven or twelve, but by the time I was actually "supposed to" be reading YA, I was reading adult books.

My guess would be that if a boy wanted to read and couldn't find a YA book that suited his tastes, he'd just go to the adult section and hit it up. I also have to wonder (nothing to prove this, just pure speculation) if there might just be a difference in reading preferences for that age range. Perhaps girls are more likely to enjoy reading books about characters their own age or going through similar experiences, or books about characters in high school (when I was in high school, having a book set there would have been more than enough to make me put it down and back away slowly). It could be that there are fewer male MCs in YA because boys in that age range have different reading preferences and there isn't as much demand. It's impossible to know without doing actual studies to find out which groups are reading, what they're reading, and then measuring them again as adults and finding out if it really makes a difference.

I just don't think it's necessarily the case that a lack of YA books with male protagonists will mean those same boys will not read as much as adults.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Oh goodie, now everyone can see me get sworn at over tea and cakes for all eternity (or until that thread disappears). And me only with 40-something posts so far!

On the other hand, I like the word 'intertwingled'. It cheers me right back up. :D
The landfill seems to be permanent. AW's waste must not be biodegradable because everything that's ever gone in is still there.

katie, I was one of those teens who read nothing but adult books. My first experience with YA was reading Harry Potter when I was 21, lol.

[Cliff Face]

I never read YA as a teen boy, but I did read MG and younger that was aimed at guys before I hit puberty. Everything changes at puberty, and my reading went straight into adult territory. The youngest type thing I read after 13 was The Hobbit, which was offset by the fact that I then went and read Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, which are patently not young books.

Then I come to the age of 24 and I find this ultra-popular book filling an entire display in my local book store, and it's about vampires, so I buy it. Hello, Twilight, YA and something I never knew existed (ignorance, I know). Now, I didn't mind Twilight on the first read through, and I bought the entire series and ate them up (I tried reading them a second time and couldn't get into it...) - but it lead me to the YA vampire books that are dotting the landscape of the new millennium.

The upshot is that I read Claudia Gray's books, loved them, and now I have no qualms about buying YA.

I'll probably still be reading the occasional YA book well into my seventies, if I should live so long.

[shaldna]

I never read YA as a teen boy, but I did read MG and younger that was aimed at guys before I hit puberty. Everything changes at puberty, and my reading went straight into adult territory.
.


Me too. I seemed to skip from MG to adult at around 14 and I only really started reading YA when I reached about 23, and now I read loads of it.

[Namatu]

I seemed to skip from MG to adult at around 14 and I only really started reading YA when I reached about 23, and now I read loads of it.I skipped from MG to adult at around 12 and have only ever read a handful of YA, and that was as an adult. Before I found my way to adult books, there was a period in which reading bored me. My teachers assigned us books and they were :e2zzz: Romance novels were far more entertaining. :D

[shaldna]

I think that's a big issue with school assigned reading lists. they are often very dense, literary novels that, while they do have merit and are often extremely good books, they just aren't right for the age group they are trying to get to read them, and I think that puts alot of people off reading at that stage.

[Lady Ice]

Yes, they're often given at an age when the teen won't be able to appreciate it. Then again, if you dumb it down to try and attract the non-readers, you lose the serious readers.

[maestrowork]

I read Hardy Boys when I was a teen, but I was also more interested in stuff like mystery, and James Bond. But yea, as a boy, I read only "boys' books" so to speak. I hardly knew any stories with female protagonists.

It's only until much later, as an adult, that I picked up fiction again and only then did I start reading all kinds of novels including female protagonists.

[backslashbaby]

You know, I was trying to think of required high school reading other than Shakespeare that had a female protagonist. I've got nothin'. And we read a ton of books.

Ah! The Scarlet Letter.

Sorry if this seems a derail, but it just occurred to me... and I'm a bit peeved by it, actually.

[Cyia]

You know, I was trying to think of required high school reading other than Shakespeare that had a female protagonist. I've got nothin'. And we read a ton of books.

Ah! The Scarlet Letter.

Sorry if this seems a derail, but it just occurred to me... and I'm a bit peeved by it, actually.

Jane Eyre. Tess of the D'Urbervilles.

[Jamie Stone]

You know, I was trying to think of required high school reading other than Shakespeare that had a female protagonist. I've got nothin'. And we read a ton of books.

Ah! The Scarlet Letter.

Sorry if this seems a derail, but it just occurred to me... and I'm a bit peeved by it, actually.

Wow, you know, I think you might be right? We read Anne Frank in middle school... Ethan Frome, but the MC was really Ethan... God, I've got nothin', either. That IS irksome.

[Lady Ice]

Pride and Prejudice, Tess of The D'Urbervilles, Handmaid's Tale.

[backslashbaby]

Good ones. But nope, none mentioned were taught in my school.

Anne Frank's diary in grade school, yes. And a couple of Elie Weisel's later, so the Holocaust was represented. And quite a few about racism.

Hmmm.

[Cyia]

You could argue that As I Lay Dying has a female protag, as it's mostly about the troubles caused by a dead mother. Who is also a fish.

[backslashbaby]

Yeah, and some of the kids were girls, if I recall correctly.

One must have been, because we covered her masturbation scene [in the water] in class, seriously.

[Jamie Stone]

Er, the only girl child was Dewey Dell, who was pregnant and went to get an abortion... and I thought it was Darl's masturbation scene on the porch at night we covered in class...

Fascinating novel, introduced me to Faulkner.

[backslashbaby]

Er, the only girl child was Dewey Dell, who was pregnant and went to get an abortion... and I thought it was Darl's masturbation scene on the porch at night we covered in class...

Fascinating novel, introduced me to Faulkner.

I'll have to look up who all was masturbating where ;) :D :D

It was a great book, I thought. Just strange enough to rope me into a lot of new authors. Marquez, especially.

I think I'll read it again, aamof!

[GregB]

You know, I was trying to think of required high school reading other than Shakespeare that had a female protagonist. I've got nothin'. And we read a ton of books.


Um...To Kill a Mockingbird?

[backslashbaby]

Not assigned, either, believe it or not. We read a ton, really we did, lol :) We were always studying something by Shakespeare (even the sonnets) and a novel or Greek mythology. A lot of Greek mythology.

Medea, lol!! There's a great female character ;) No, the mythology was great to read. And a lot of females, actually. Just not realistic, modern ones.

[Toothpaste]

But then I suppose you weren't reading "realistic, modern" male characters either if all you read were the classics.

[Jamie Stone]

I don't think we read To Kill A Mockingbird at my school, either. I remember... Romeo and Juliet, The Odyssey, Macbeth, Tale of Two Cities, Night, Anthem, As I Lay Dying, Ethan Frome, Lord of the Flies, 1984, Demian (by Hesse), Siddhartha... And I think that's it.

[backslashbaby]

But then I suppose you weren't reading "realistic, modern" male characters either if all you read were the classics.

I count things like A Seperate Peace, The Great Gatsby, The Sun Also Rises, The Invisible Man, etc., and certainly Elie Weisel's work as modern enough.

I mean the vast majority of the female MCs were Shakespearian or much older. I can't empathize much with Antigone :D

[Satori1977]

I will read either, depends on the story and genre. I read a lot of UF, which is mostly female MC's. Romances have both. But I think most of the other books I read have male MC's. I write both as well, but more female perspective. I just like to read (and write) good stories with good characters. Characters that are interesting, and different. Not stereotypical. Not cliched. But not over the top and unbelievable either.

As far as fighting...like everything else, it needs to be realistic. I don't like to read about any character that is so amazing they win every fight and never get hurt, superhuman or not. And yes, many women know how to fight. And we usually fight dirty. I am a petite 5'1 woman, and when I have had to fight, I do whatever is necessary...I am not above going for the crotch, biting, scratching, going for eyes, etc. Things like that will hurt even a large man, possibly just enough to surprise him and get away. A lot of it is skill, strength and speed, but can also be luck. I have a female friend who took down a much larger male because he didn't take her seriously. Didn't know she took martial arts, or was in the NAVY. He saw boobs, didn't really try, and she knocked him out.

[Birol]

I have a female friend who took down a much larger male because he didn't take her seriously. Didn't know she took martial arts, or was in the NAVY. He saw boobs, didn't really try, and she knocked him out.

I tell my male practice partners, "Sex (that which I don't have between my legs) is a weapon and I'm not above using it to my advantage."

I also lecture the new ones* sternly that they're not doing me or themselves any favors by going easy on me. Yes, if I'm parked on a dark corner and it's 10:0pm, they can walk me to my car, because that's aiki -- their presence might be enough to stop something before it happens -- but on the mat, don't respect my personal space, don't fudge their attacks, and don't be afraid to throw me. That does neither of us any good. If they continue to do these things, I exploit the gift they've given me; they learn soon enough.



*The ones who've worked with me awhile know and recognize these things.

[HelloKiddo]

I also lecture the new ones* sternly that they're not doing me or themselves any favors by going easy on me. Yes, if I'm parked on a dark corner and it's 10:0pm, they can walk me to my car, because that's aiki -- their presence might be enough to stop something before it happens -- but on the mat, don't respect my personal space, don't fudge their attacks, and don't be afraid to throw me. That does neither of us any good. If they continue to do these things, I exploit the gift they've given me; they learn soon enough.

That post was hilarious when read while viewing your current avatar.

[Birol]

Whut? I think my poor defenseless kitty already lost the battle -- just not the war.

[Ms Hollands]

I think "almost always" is a great exaggeration. No doubt there was a heavy male-oriented prejudice in the 19th Century, but:

Anna Karenina
Madame Bovary
Vanity Fair
Moll Flanders
Jane Eyre
Wuthering Heights
The Scarlet Letter

Jane Austen
George Eliot & George Sand (both of whom chose male pseudonyms to defeat publication prejudices)
The numerous Brontës
Kate Chopin
Mary Shelley


caw

Yes, this. There are SO many female authors from that time. They just didn't have the same opportunities as men. Who knows how many wrote under male pseudonyms just to get published. I'd like to add:

Elizabeth Barret Browning
Christina Rosetti
Mary Wollstonecraft (she has some good insight into just how tough those times could be for women - no wonder so few were famous - Mary Shelly's mum!)
Alice James
Virginia Woolf (maybe a bit more recent)
Emily Dickinson

[beardtato]

You know what, Beardtato, that's it. You need to learn to learn our governing rule: Respect your fellow writer. It's one thing to attack a person's arguments; it's quite another to attack them.
You called me an idiot earlier in this thread (how convinient that the post has been deleted) just because you couldn't come up with any rational counter-arguments. You're in no position to lecture me about respect (you also did not react when somebody else called me a troll). When I said that backslashbaby is delusional, that was not an insult. She, like many others here, entertains entirely unrealistic notions about her abilities because of feminist propaganda telling women that they're not just equal to men, but superior to them in every way. Worst case scenario is that some day she'll get killed because of that.

I let the personal insults to me in PM slide past...What personal insults?

...mostly because they were off-the-mark and I'm distracted by personal stuff right now...Mostly because you have no counter-arguments whatsoever. There is no possible way you can back up any of your nonsense. The facts are on my side.

misogynistic pot-stirringIt's now "misogynistic" to state that women are smaller and physically weaker than men? I am still waiting for you to disprove anything I've said.

...call other members 'delusional' just because they do not see the world exactly as you do.It makes no difference how you prefer to perceive the world when a man is on top of you and punching you in the face as hard as he can. Your opinion does not matter in that situation. Your feminist hubris makes no difference. In Women's Studies you can, of course, arbitrarily decide that black is white and up is down, but your ideological flights of fancy don't matter in the real world. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride and I would be eating steak.

The fact of nature is that females are aggressive and territorial and can hold their own in most cases. In humans, this has been tramped down a bit by gender conditioning that tells girls to be one way and boys to be another, but the number of female children who play with GI Joe and the number of males who'll grab mom's high heels for dress up is enough to show you that the conditioning isn't something boys and girls are born with.
Men are naturally more aggressive and war-like. Exceptions do not invalidate this rule.

Size isn't even necessarily a deterrent from success in physical confrontation.No, but it makes a big difference. Weight classes exist for a reason.

Any guy who thinks a skilled female fighter can't beat your average male should go head to head with a professional female boxer. Even if he is bigger than her, I doubt he would last a full round.
Did I ever say that a skilled female fighter cannot defeat an average man? No, I don't believe I did. Nothing is stopping a woman from becoming good enough to defeat the average man. That, however, does not alter the fact that the average woman is in serious trouble if he goes up against the average man. A professional female fighter is likewise in trouble against a professional male fighter.

NOTE: When a woman tells someone not to let the door hit them in the ass, she's being emotional and hysterical. If a man does it, he's taking control of the situation and being assertive.
You are being emotional, and I never said your behavior would be any less emotional if exhibited by a man. You're just making things up now.

Anyone who is silly enough to think that men are automatically superior to women in strength doesn't have the sense to realize that pure unadulterated anger can empower anyone. I defy any man to tell me that I can't defend myself and mine if I need to.
"Self-defense," for most feminists, seems to be less about practical fighting ability and more about righteous indignation and "you go girl!" pseudo-empowerment. Instead of hitting the gym and signing up for MMA or Judo, they just huff and puff about how they're going to kick everyone's asses (with girl power!).

By the way, don't screw with Birol. She's one of those martial arts expert types and can totally kick your ass...just an fyi...Yeah, right. To be an expert you have to know stuff. She doesn't even know the fundamental realities of fighting. An average man in the street would punch her lights out lickety-split.

And yes, many women know how to fight. And we usually fight dirty. I am a petite 5'1 woman, and when I have had to fight, I do whatever is necessary...I am not above going for the crotch, biting, scratching, going for eyes, etc.
A lot of people, including men, say this. The reality is that this "dirty fighting" does not work as well as you think it does. It's just an illusory shortcut, like a magic weight loss pill. If defeating a bigger, stronger and more aggressive man was simply a matter of kicking him in the balls (which will not necessarily do anything, assuming you can even hit your target) or gouging his eyes (will almost certainly not work), women wouldn't get raped.

I guess feminists are reluctant to learn any fighting because that would require them to admit that they are at a disadvantage and must therefore work to close the gap. That naturally goes against the feminist dogma of women being superior to men in every regard.

Presumably Birol will now delete this post and ban me and then come up with some bullshit excuse for it. It's certainly easier than debating like a rational adult. But what more can you expect from someone who won't even admit that women are smaller than men?

[Cliff Face]

*eats popcorn and watches*

[Lady Ice]

Good ones. But nope, none mentioned were taught in my school.

Anne Frank's diary in grade school, yes. And a couple of Elie Weisel's later, so the Holocaust was represented. And quite a few about racism.

Hmmm.

Should've gone to my school- all girls school :P

I'm sick of ra ra feminism. I want respect because I'm good at something, not because I'm a woman who's good at something.

[Satsya]

Ooh! Popcorn.

You know what goes well with popcorn? Barbecue!

*runs away*

[Cliff Face]

Mmm, I could go some barbecue right now...

[Birol]

You called me an idiot earlier in this thread (how convinient that the post has been deleted) just because you couldn't come up with any rational counter-arguments. You're in no position to lecture me about respect (you also did not react when somebody else called me a troll).

My post calling you an idiot was not deleted, it was moved to the landfill. If you had taken your time off to learn a little about AW as I asked you to do, you might have known that.

When I said that backslashbaby is delusional, that was not an insult. She, like many others here, entertains entirely unrealistic notions about her abilities because of feminist propaganda telling women that they're not just equal to men, but superior to them in every way. Worst case scenario is that some day she'll get killed because of that.

Calling someone delusional is not a rational argument, even if you claim that it is. It is an attack on the individual, not on their statements. I have yet to hear anyone but you claim that the women on this board believe they are superior to men.

What personal insults?

The ones in PM that board protocol say I should not respond to here.

It makes no difference how you prefer to perceive the world when a man is on top of you and punching you in the face as hard as he can. Your opinion does not matter in that situation. Your feminist hubris makes no difference. In Women's Studies you can, of course, arbitrarily decide that black is white and up is down, but your ideological flights of fancy don't matter in the real world. If wishes were horses, beggars would ride and I would be eating steak.

See, here you make assumptions. I have never taken a Women's Studies course. Nor have I ever claimed to be a feminist. I do, however, claim to be human and an individual, and asked to be judged and evaluated as such.


Yeah, right. To be an expert you have to know stuff. She doesn't even know the fundamental realities of fighting. An average man in the street would punch her lights out lickety-split.

Thing is, intellectually, I have not engaged you. For the most part, I have not responded to your allegations. You might want to believe I have, but I haven't. Mac says when I engage certain individuals intellectually it's like watching someone kick a puppy. She doesn't like that and, well... she does own the board, so I must respect her wishes. Besides, engaging with a troll is a waste of my time; it does nothing except satisfy the troll.

However, Mac also contracted me to keep the peace and since you are truly only trolling and not actively engaging the board in any real way and seem to have no interest in doing so, you will be going away permanently now.

[Satsya]

Ah, Jamie Stone.

*hug*

Happens to the threads of the best of folks. At least now the dust should settle.

[Cliff Face]

I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, seeing as how the issue should be closed and we can all move on, but even that guy's name gave me the shits.

Continue. :)

[Birol]

I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, seeing as how the issue should be closed and we can all move on, but even that guy's name gave me the shits.

Continue. :)

I believe it was designed to.

I should do some clean-up, but I need to get out the door to the part-time job. I'll have to do it this evening if it's still warranted.

[Toothpaste]

Just have to say, why is calling someone delusional just referring to a fact, but calling someone an idiot is not? Sir, that alone is an example of one of your many logical fallacies in this thread. So Birol calling you an idiot is an insult is it? Maybe, my dear sir, it's simply the truth.

Birol, I can't believe I of all people am saying this, considering how much I love to engage such individuals, and considering when a man obviously is all rant-y at the concept of female empowerment (he quite clearly has general issues against the notion of feminism) I usually jump on such anger and, quite frankly, hatred, in a heartbeat, but seriously, this dude is SO not worth it. Let him rant in his one thread, we all know what's really going on behind the scenes, we all know that his arguments hardly come from a rational place. He hasn't been able to accurately read the posts on this thread without projecting his own opinion onto the content and the person making the post thus utterly misreading them. And the more he rants the more ridiculous he looks.

[backslashbaby]

Hee hee. Yeah, I got what I was saying from feminist literature, and he knows I don't lift weights. Okey-dokey ;) Works for me...

[Greeble]

Whut? I think my poor defenseless kitty already lost the battle -- just not the war.

She still looks very spirited to me.

And as for the subject: I prefer writing female MCs. Men are boring.

[kurzon]

Reverting to the subject of the thread...

I read both male and female protagonists. I write mainly female, but occasionally male.

I do tend to skew female in certain genres, however. I'm happy to read male protagonist in science fiction. I'm a little warier in fantasy and so am _more likely_ to pick up a female protagonist there. That's mainly because I hate reading books where the women are:

- cheer squad
- harem
- object to rescue
- object to win
- not much else

But some of my favourite stories have male protagonists (and, for that matter, practically no female characters at all, such as Andre Norton's "Catseye"). It really depends on treatment.

As for the side-question of who would win between male and female characters in a hand-to-hand combat situation (without supernatural elements), it would all depend on training, element of surprise, luck, strength, all those other factors which are important in a hand-to-hand fight.

If I can believe that shrimpy little Jackie Chan can beat those twice-his-size bruisers with his superior skills and speed, I can believe shrimpy little Jacqueline Chan can too. But if Jackie is caught off guard and sat on by aforementioned bruiser, I'll readily believe he's in trouble and might be in danger of losing. Same goes for Jacqueline.

[Satori1977]

A lot of people, including men, say this. The reality is that this "dirty fighting" does not work as well as you think it does. It's just an illusory shortcut, like a magic weight loss pill. If defeating a bigger, stronger and more aggressive man was simply a matter of kicking him in the balls (which will not necessarily do anything, assuming you can even hit your target) or gouging his eyes (will almost certainly not work), women wouldn't get raped.

And where is your proof of that. Doing this actually got me out of a very bad situation when I was attacked by a man much larger than myself. Yes, I got hurt, but I hurt him, and I got away. So don't speak of something you know nothing about.

And since that is a painful subject, that is all I am saying about that. I don't think I should come back in this thread, since it started as a great topic, but has gone way off-topic.

[glutton]

Any fight in fiction or reality will not be between theoretical concepts of "Man" and "Woman", but two individuals. Would anyone bet on me being able to defeat any (or even most) women, just because I have a penis? By the same token, would it necessarily be unrealistic to have a 6'2", 280 pound female character who can beat the shit out of most men she meets?

Besides, some stories are meant to be unrealistic. I'm rather proud of my tale where the 170 lb female MMA fighter MC opens up cans of whoop ass on blatant homages to Brock Lesnar, Mirko Crocop, and Mark Kerr (as well as a trained female vampire)... all while being a total arrogant bitch about it most of the way, and probably trolling MMA forums in her spare time...

[lachlan]

You guys are way more focussed than me. To stay polite and on-topic against that kind of trollery??? Everyone: kudos to Birol!

Also, I love this board!

Anyhoo...my third-persons are women, but my first-persons are men. Not entirely sure why, but I have my suspicions.

[Cliff Face]

That's an interesting point - first vs. third in the male/female question...

Let's see here...
first book: Third person omni - 5 females, 3 males
second book: Omni - 5 females, 2 males
third book: First person - 1 male, 1 female (each half of book is a different first person perspective)
fourth book: Third limited: 3 females, 1 male (who dies halfway through lol)
fifth book: Third limited: 3 males, 2 females

So I only have one book with more men than women, whether it's first or third. My omni seems to be heavily female, and my first is equal parts. My limited is more even than my omni with 5 females and 4 males.

Yup, I'm a guy who writes women alright. :)

[eyeblink]

Let's see -

The Storyteller's Tale - multiple 3rd limited, three main POVs, two secondary POVs, four female, one male (one of the two secondaries). All past tense except one of the main POVs is in present tense for reasons explained in the text.

Partings and Greetings - multiple first present, two female, one male

The Plague Years - multiple first present, one female, one male

Of the last three short stories I wrote, one was 1st present female combined with 3rd present detached (i.e. not in anyone's head in that scene, quite intentionally). The last two I wrote are both 1st male, one present tense and one past tense.

[Raphee]

WOW...and I thought you guys were talking writing here, while we had the Jerry Springer show on.

[Tatiana]

When reading, I don't care whether the POV is male or female. When writing, I lean heavily towards a female POV. Writing from a male perspective and making it believable is something I'm actively trying to work on, however; in looking over my character synopses and rereading the chapters I wrote from the male POV, I find they're trite and one-dimensional.