Story arc problems

Ruth2 · Mar 28, 2010

In going over my WIP (in revision) my female MC's major sotry arc begins at the beginning and goes all the way to the end. However my male MC's story arc starts well into the book and doesn't end. The story is told from my female MC's point of view but his is critical to the story as well.

Is this a problem? I want this WIP to be a stand alone with a possibility for a sequel, not scream "hey! there's another book coming after this!!!!"

Any suggestions would be gratefully considered. Thanks.

justAnotherWriter · Mar 28, 2010

A story doesn't have to end for it to have an ending. Many stories actually end at the beginning, such as when two people get together and start a relationship. A long time ago, writers used words like "and they lived happily ever after" to handle this. You just have to think of something a bit more clever, less dated and more appropriate to the situation in your story.

Ruth2 · Mar 28, 2010

Thanks, justAnotherWriter.

I guess it's determining which is the most important arc and leaving the others. Something in me wants to wrap up all the arcs into a neat tidy package and voila! present them to the reader with a flourish. <sigh>

job · Mar 28, 2010

You want a satisfying ending to the story. This might coincide with the ending of the story arc for one character or both.

Might not.

There are lots of good books out there where the reader assumes the characters are going to continue to grow and change after the last page.

scarletpeaches · Mar 28, 2010

I much prefer those sorts of books. I'm not too fond of 'tied up neatly with a pretty pink bow' stories. I want the characters to live on after the last page.

Besides, say you're writing a romance. The story arc isn't about the couple's entire relationship, but how they got together in the first place. An arc doesn't have to cover someone's entire life, everything interesting about them - just one particular aspect of their journey.

Feathers · Mar 28, 2010

I understand how you feel...I'm like that with my stories. I want them to resolve. Sometimes it isn't always possible though, so I get that, too

I would say it's important to have some kind of resolution for both your MC's, especially if you want to avoid the cliffhanger-to-sequel feeling.

Is there any smaller but important story arc you could resolve for your male character? Like say his main arc is, oh I don't know, solving the murder of his mother and resolving the way her murder impacted his childhood. So he probably struggles with things like abandonment, rage, anger over his father, whatever, during the whole first book. To give it a sense of resolution, you could have him come to grip with one of these arcs. Maybe he learns to forgive his father for being in a drunken stupor. Maybe he chooses to trust the female MC despite all his past fears of abandonment.

That's a random and cliched example. I think it gets the point across though?

Anyway, best of luck with this.

Sanoe SC · Mar 28, 2010

To what extent will the reader expect you to fulfill the male MC’s story arc? If you can’t give your reader completion, can you make the ending seem like a major milestone?

For example, if the male MC is looking for the man who killed his father/sister/friend/dog, and he never finds that person and brings them to justice, your readers will be unhappy. Ending with the MC ‘hot on the trail’ just won’t do it for many people.

Alternatively, if he wants to be recognized as the world’s premier violinist, they’ll accept him winning a prestigious national competition at the end.

blacbird · Mar 28, 2010

I find, when I finish a story, that if I take the printed manuscript, roll it tight and bind it with a rubber band, and aim for a point about five feet off the floor midway between my desk and the waste bin, the story arc is perfect.

caw

Caitlin Black · Mar 28, 2010

Feathers said:
I understand how you feel...I'm like that with my stories. I want them to resolve. Sometimes it isn't always possible though, so I get that, too I would say it's important to have some kind of resolution for both your MC's, especially if you want to avoid the cliffhanger-to-sequel feeling.

Is there any smaller but important story arc you could resolve for your male character? Like say his main arc is, oh I don't know, solving the murder of his mother and resolving the way her murder impacted his childhood. So he probably struggles with things like abandonment, rage, anger over his father, whatever, during the whole first book. To give it a sense of resolution, you could have him come to grip with one of these arcs. Maybe he learns to forgive his father for being in a drunken stupor. Maybe he chooses to trust the female MC despite all his past fears of abandonment.

That's a random and cliched example. I think it gets the point across though?

Anyway, best of luck with this.

Sanoe SC said:
To what extent will the reader expect you to fulfill the male MC’s story arc? If you can’t give your reader completion, can you make the ending seem like a major milestone?

For example, if the male MC is looking for the man who killed his father/sister/friend/dog, and he never finds that person and brings them to justice, your readers will be unhappy. Ending with the MC ‘hot on the trail’ just won’t do it for many people.

Alternatively, if he wants to be recognized as the world’s premier violinist, they’ll accept him winning a prestigious national competition at the end.

What they said. Good luck with it. So long as something important is resolved, proportional to his amount of page time, then I'd call it aces, even if it left some things up in the air.

Ruth2 · Mar 28, 2010

job said:
You want a satisfying ending to the story. This might coincide with the ending of the story arc for one character or both.

Might not.

There are lots of good books out there where the reader assumes the characters are going to continue to grow and change after the last page.

hey, job, thanks! I think part of the problem is that as it is now, the WIP is blatantly screaming--"Stay tuned for part two." The two bad guys have been vanquished, if not killed and the trio are heading home to reclaim whatever it is they need to reclaim. It's making it seem like a stand alone that's a problem.

scarletpeaches said:
I much prefer those sorts of books. I'm not too fond of 'tied up neatly with a pretty pink bow' stories. I want the characters to live on after the last page.

Besides, say you're writing a romance. The story arc isn't about the couple's entire relationship, but how they got together in the first place. An arc doesn't have to cover someone's entire life, everything interesting about them - just one particular aspect of their journey.

Thanks SP. There is some resolution for everyone but it still feels ... unfinished, i guess. Too open. Meh.

Feathers said:
I understand how you feel...I'm like that with my stories. I want them to resolve. Sometimes it isn't always possible though, so I get that, too I would say it's important to have some kind of resolution for both your MC's, especially if you want to avoid the cliffhanger-to-sequel feeling.

Is there any smaller but important story arc you could resolve for your male character? Like say his main arc is, oh I don't know, solving the murder of his mother and resolving the way her murder impacted his childhood. So he probably struggles with things like abandonment, rage, anger over his father, whatever, during the whole first book. To give it a sense of resolution, you could have him come to grip with one of these arcs. Maybe he learns to forgive his father for being in a drunken stupor. Maybe he chooses to trust the female MC despite all his past fears of abandonment.

That's a random and cliched example. I think it gets the point across though?

Anyway, best of luck with this.

Thanks, Feathers. I may just leave it open and see if I catch flack for it. Hey, no one may pick it up and then I won't have to worry about it.

Sanoe SC said:
To what extent will the reader expect you to fulfill the male MC’s story arc? If you can’t give your reader completion, can you make the ending seem like a major milestone?

For example, if the male MC is looking for the man who killed his father/sister/friend/dog, and he never finds that person and brings them to justice, your readers will be unhappy. Ending with the MC ‘hot on the trail’ just won’t do it for many people.

Alternatively, if he wants to be recognized as the world’s premier violinist, they’ll accept him winning a prestigious national competition at the end.

Good question. To me it feels like the ending leaves him "hot on the trail" so yes, I think the reader will feel cheated.

Thanks, Sanoe.

blacbird said:
I find, when I finish a story, that if I take the printed manuscript, roll it tight and bind it with a rubber band, and aim for a point about five feet off the floor midway between my desk and the waste bin, the story arc is perfect.

caw

Thanks blacbird! I'll have to try that!

Ruth2 · Mar 28, 2010

Cliff Face said:
What they said. Good luck with it. So long as something important is resolved, proportional to his amount of page time, then I'd call it aces, even if it left some things up in the air.

He kills the bad guys, he saves the secondary male MC, he gets the female MC... but he's also headed home. That's where I have problem. He's on his way home and the book never shows him getting there, much less taking over and throwing the rest of the nasties out of the castle, so to speak.

Thanks Cliff Face!

Caitlin Black · Mar 28, 2010

Ruth2 said:
He kills the bad guys, he saves the secondary male MC, he gets the female MC... but he's also headed home. That's where I have problem. He's on his way home and the book never shows him getting there, much less taking over and throwing the rest of the nasties out of the castle, so to speak.

Thanks Cliff Face!

Hmm, I'd say that depending on what the rest of the story contains, this would be fine. Like, if the story is all about retaking the castle, then you need to write more, but you said that the male MC is secondary to the FMC... so methinks that it's not really about that.

Without knowing more, my hunch is that you're fine. Plenty gets resolved, so the readers should be happy. If, though, the 2 MCs both want the castle cleared, then you definitely need to write more. But, like I said, if that's not really what the story is about then I personally wouldn't have a problem reading that finale as you described it. It still ends on a high, and you can imagine that if the MMC is good enough to kill the bad guy, then clearing out the castle is easy enough for him.

I take it the bad guy represents more of a challenge than the castle, yes?

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

Sanoe SC · Mar 28, 2010

In fantasy, I've seen debut novels that are the first of a trilogy and even recall a debut that claimed to be part one of ten. (though I doubt there was a ten book deal)

My suggestion then: Write an epilogue or final chapter that wraps up the male MC’s arc. If you can get an agent, tell them that you’d originally envisioned it as having a sequel and see if they can’t get a two book deal. If they can, keep your current ending. If they can’t, keep the ‘completed story arc’ ending.

Caitlin Black · Mar 28, 2010

Sanoe SC said:
In fantasy, I've seen debut novels that are the first of a trilogy and even recall a debut that claimed to be part one of ten. (though I doubt there was a ten book deal)

My suggestion then: Write an epilogue or final chapter that wraps up the male MC’s arc. If you can get an agent, tell them that you’d originally envisioned it as having a sequel and see if they can’t get a two book deal. If they can, keep your current ending. If they can’t, keep the ‘completed story arc’ ending.

That's an insanely good idea.

I want your braaaaaaain!

/zombie

Ruth2 · Mar 29, 2010

Cliff Face said:
Hmm, I'd say that depending on what the rest of the story contains, this would be fine. Like, if the story is all about retaking the castle, then you need to write more, but you said that the male MC is secondary to the FMC... so methinks that it's not really about that.

Without knowing more, my hunch is that you're fine. Plenty gets resolved, so the readers should be happy. If, though, the 2 MCs both want the castle cleared, then you definitely need to write more. But, like I said, if that's not really what the story is about then I personally wouldn't have a problem reading that finale as you described it. It still ends on a high, and you can imagine that if the MMC is good enough to kill the bad guy, then clearing out the castle is easy enough for him.

I take it the bad guy represents more of a challenge than the castle, yes?

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

He wants the castle cleared to reestablish his authority; she wants what he wants. In this book the bad guy is more of a challenge because he's trying to kill her. In the retaking the castle scenario, the threat is primarily the MMC's and secondarily hers.

Thanks, Cliff Face!!!

Sanoe SC said:
In fantasy, I've seen debut novels that are the first of a trilogy and even recall a debut that claimed to be part one of ten. (though I doubt there was a ten book deal)

My suggestion then: Write an epilogue or final chapter that wraps up the male MC’s arc. If you can get an agent, tell them that you’d originally envisioned it as having a sequel and see if they can’t get a two book deal. If they can, keep your current ending. If they can’t, keep the ‘completed story arc’ ending.

Cool idea!!! Thanks Sanoe!!!

Cliff Face said:
That's an insanely good idea.

I want your braaaaaaain!

/zombie

Me too!!! Got an extra????

shaldna · Mar 29, 2010

I think theres a fine line between a satisfying ending and a tied up ending. Sometimes loose threads can be a good thing.

For example, the end of a Walk to Remember. For the whole book we are building up to Jamie;s death, but when it comes to the end it's all sort of left hanging, we;'re never told she died, and it's never implied that she did. It's a strange sort of ending, and everyone has thier own opinons on it. But the point is that the story lives on after the last page, and you, as the reader, can end it whatever way you want.

I kinda like that.

Lady Ice · Mar 29, 2010

For plot arcs, always make sure that you provide some sort of ending, even if it's an open-ended one. Don't set up an arc and then ignore it. There's nothing worse than writers abandoning plot arcs in the middle of the book; it looks like you've either forgotten (which in novels with a big cast it sometimes is the case) or you wrote yourself into a corner.

For example, Measure for Measure has an open ending. The Duke has asked for Isabella's hand in marriage, despite the fact that she's a nun and he played a trick on her. She doesn't give a reply. So some readers might choose to have them walk off together- it is supposed to be a comedy- but others might be more cynical. Her story arc in the play has ended, but there's a suggestion that further trouble may befall her.

job · Mar 29, 2010

It sounds like it's your story arc that's incomplete in Manuscript One. Character arcs can be left incomplete. Story arcs, not so much. Not if you're writing a standalone. It is probably easier to sell a standalone, first time out.

I can think of two sorta main approaches to establishing a complete story arc from where you are.--

i) Give us two conflicts.

First story is the lesser conflict that presages the greater fight. You move the main, overarching conflict, just about in toto, to the second manuscript. The first story is one section of the larger conflict.

Exmple. Umm ... The movie Star Wars in terms of the whole cycle. Star Wars is one limited fight in a long war. It resolves into one clear victory.

To do a separation of 'this fight' and 'the larger fight' -- you'd maybe decide what would work as a big dramatic conclusion that ties everything up. Then, when you have that important, satisfying ending, you create the story that points towards that ending, and not the ending of the longer series.

Work backwards through Manuscript One. Test each scene and remove or reduce the importance of subplots, conflicts and character problems that do not get resolved in Story One. Throughout this first manuscript, inflate the importance of what does get resolved. Remove or distance the ubervillain or uberproblem that will be faced in Story Two.

(Think of all the stuff that exists in the Star Wars universe that was not introduced in the first Star Wars movie. That's what you are pulling out of your manuscript.)

Then Story Two would start with --

-- 'They had won freedom for the Province of Famblesham. Now they must face the Evil High King on is own ground.'
-- 'They had rescued the amulet of Prismatics. Now they must make the long journey to the Temple of Hathor and set it in the Cow's nose.'
-- 'The spell had been lifted from the Princess. Now she must face the quest that had been so long delayed.'

2) A second approach to this is to temporarily defeat the Main Villain. He's gone for now. You make it possible for him to return. That's what Rolling did in the first book of the Harry Potter series.

Ruth2 · Mar 29, 2010

shaldna said:
I think theres a fine line between a satisfying ending and a tied up ending. Sometimes loose threads can be a good thing.

For example, the end of a Walk to Remember. For the whole book we are building up to Jamie;s death, but when it comes to the end it's all sort of left hanging, we;'re never told she died, and it's never implied that she did. It's a strange sort of ending, and everyone has thier own opinons on it. But the point is that the story lives on after the last page, and you, as the reader, can end it whatever way you want.

I kinda like that.

Hmm, thanks Shaldna. That gives me some ideas.

Lady Ice said:
For plot arcs, always make sure that you provide some sort of ending, even if it's an open-ended one. Don't set up an arc and then ignore it. There's nothing worse than writers abandoning plot arcs in the middle of the book; it looks like you've either forgotten (which in novels with a big cast it sometimes is the case) or you wrote yourself into a corner.

For example, Measure for Measure has an open ending. The Duke has asked for Isabella's hand in marriage, despite the fact that she's a nun and he played a trick on her. She doesn't give a reply. So some readers might choose to have them walk off together- it is supposed to be a comedy- but others might be more cynical. Her story arc in the play has ended, but there's a suggestion that further trouble may befall her.

Thanks Lady Ice. I see what you're saying, yeah.

job said:
It sounds like it's your story arc that's incomplete in Manuscript One. Character arcs can be left incomplete. Story arcs, not so much. Not if you're writing a standalone. It is probably easier to sell a standalone, first time out.

I can think of two sorta main approaches to establishing a complete story arc from where you are.--

i) Give us two conflicts.

First story is the lesser conflict that presages the greater fight. You move the main, overarching conflict, just about in toto, to the second manuscript. The first story is one section of the larger conflict.

Exmple. Umm ... The movie Star Wars in terms of the whole cycle. Star Wars is one limited fight in a long war. It resolves into one clear victory.

To do a separation of 'this fight' and 'the larger fight' -- you'd maybe decide what would work as a big dramatic conclusion that ties everything up. Then, when you have that important, satisfying ending, you create the story that points towards that ending, and not the ending of the longer series.

Work backwards through Manuscript One. Test each scene and remove or reduce the importance of subplots, conflicts and character problems that do not get resolved in Story One. Throughout this first manuscript, inflate the importance of what does get resolved. Remove or distance the ubervillain or uberproblem that will be faced in Story Two.

(Think of all the stuff that exists in the Star Wars universe that was not introduced in the first Star Wars movie. That's what you are pulling out of your manuscript.)

Then Story Two would start with --

-- 'They had won freedom for the Province of Famblesham. Now they must face the Evil High King on is own ground.'
-- 'They had rescued the amulet of Prismatics. Now they must make the long journey to the Temple of Hathor and set it in the Cow's nose.'
-- 'The spell had been lifted from the Princess. Now she must face the quest that had been so long delayed.'

2) A second approach to this is to temporarily defeat the Main Villain. He's gone for now. You make it possible for him to return. That's what Rolling did in the first book of the Harry Potter series.

Thanks, job. The second one is the one that I've done so far. Main villain is dead, well almost dead.. well, impaled on a stake and bleeding out so he's gotta be dead, right? Mebbe not.

But the overarching problem is the good guys are headed home; the whole second half of the book is road trip and the obstacles on the way. At the end of the book they're on the last leg... but they haven't gotten there yet. To get them there and work through what they find when they get there would take at least another 50K words. Therein is my problem. Leave it where they're headed off home but not there yet (and they know it won't be fun when they get there) or add on and make the book too long.

The arc for the female MC is to get her to the family; the arc for the male MC is to get them home. Hers is completed; his isn't. She however is the primary MC (and the book is from her POV), so...

Thanks y'all. You've given me lots to think about here. I really appreciate it.

lucidzfl · Mar 29, 2010

Is the actual trip home that important? I mean I know you've got it planned out and lots of exciting stuff happens, but is it of paramount importance to include?

Can you simply fast forward through the road trip and obstacles? Or simply include the ones of most importants to the story and the characters?

I don't think you have any more difficult problem than anyone who writes a book that spans/months/years/hundreds of miles.

Ruth2 · Mar 29, 2010

Hi lucidzfl. That's what I've done-- only included what's important. What happens after the books ends completes it but ... The villain chases them from DC to the Languedoc, and then on to Milan. In Milan they believe they've eradicated him and that arc seems to be complete.

As you say, no more difficult than any other work that spans time/distance. My female MC isn't convinced the villain is dead. She and the remaining characters leave for Slovenia (home) and that's the end-- their leaving and her uncertainty. I don't know if the end is too blatantly open or not.

Thanks, lucidflz!

job · Mar 29, 2010

Ruth2 said:
But the overarching problem is the good guys are headed home;

Hmmm ...
I don't know your story. I can't speak to how you should plot it. It's a mistake to try.

But one way of looking at plot is to ask yourself what the story is 'about'. There is a difference between what folks do in the plotting of the story and what the book is 'about'.

Lord of the Rings starts out with Frodo and Sam leaving Hobbiton. It ends with Sam coming home and sitting down to dinner, his child on his knee. The Wizard of Oz, could be described as 'Dorothy heads home'.
But the books are not 'about' getting home.

We know this because the high point of the plot is not the 'arrival at home'. The homecoming is post-denouement. It occurs in the plot after the conflict has been resolved.

If Sam had been magically carried to Hobbiton at the end of Chapter 43 -- it would not have solved the true conflict of the story. If Dorothy had escaped the flying monkeys by clicking her shoes, she would never have learned the courage, wisdom and love that made her strong enough to face the Wizard. And that is what the book is 'about'.

Is your book about 'getting home', or about something else?

Ruth2 · Mar 29, 2010

job said:
Hmmm ...
I don't know your story. I can't speak to how you should plot it. It's a mistake to try.

But one way of looking at plot is to ask yourself what the story is 'about'. There is a difference between what folks do in the story and what the book is 'about'.

Lord of the Rings starts out with Frodo and Sam leaving Hobbiton. It ends with Sam coming home and sitting down to dinner, his child on his knee. The Wizard of Oz, could be described as 'Dorothy heads home'.

But the books are not 'about' getting home. The homecoming is post-denouement; it occurs in the plot after the conflict has been resolved.

Is your book about 'getting home', or about something else?

Good question. And it gives me an idea on how to resolve this.

Two homecomings-- one belongs to the female MC; the other belongs to the male MC. Hers gets resolved. His doesn't. The book though is about how the female MC takes on the attributes of the family that has entered her life and becomes as they are.

Thanks, job!

Story arc problems

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In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

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Wild one

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Wild one

The Spice Must Flow

Wild one

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The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Makes useful distinctions

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Back from the dead

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