Tricky question. Application of race in 1955.

seen92 · Mar 24, 2010

My story is set in 1955 Los Angeles.

In one scene a police officer sees an African-American woman.

For example: Phil wondered who this 'colored' woman worked for.

but

Should race, any race for that fact, be referred to in the NOW when using action?

i.e. She was the only African-American in the room.

ChristineR · Mar 24, 2010

What is your POV? If it's Phil's, and he'd say colored, you can say colored.

If it's omniscient, I'd sidestep the whole issue and say "dark-skinned," or "granddaughter of a slave..." Just generally something that alludes to why you need to make this woman African-American. Try mentally just leaving out the reference, justify why she has to be African-American, and then use that to say what she is without using questionable terms.

job · Mar 24, 2010

seen92 said:
My story is set in 1955 Los Angeles. In one scene a police officer sees an African-American woman.

Yes. You can say she's colored. Don't be kittenish. Just say it.

A tall, skinny colored woman, about fifty, was emptying ash trays behind the bar. Another woman, decades younger, white, pink-cheeked, with too much makup on, sat on one of the bar stools swinging her leg.

seen92 said:
Should race, any race for that fact, be referred to in the NOW when using action?

I have absolutely no idea what this means.

lucidzfl · Mar 24, 2010

Depending on POV, keep in mind the N word was rampant. There were also a TON of other terms for black people back then. based on what other people in your book are doing, it might behoove you to do some research

This may help:

http://www.rsdb.org/

Coon, spade, ace, porch monkey, darky are all ones I think were used then.

One I learned from my grandfather is boothead.

So if you want to take a more PC approach to referring to them, you can use some of the more obscure slang.

I personally can NOT stand the N word, and refuse to write it even.

third person · Mar 24, 2010

Be true. ALWAYS be true. Above all, be fucking TRUE. If your POV character has a certain mindset, no matter how disturbing, be TRUE and show it. And don't nitpick and shiver about offending people, either. I'm black and the terms lucid listed make me laugh, because I find racism to be so stupid it's mind-blowingly funny. Be true.

lucidzfl · Mar 24, 2010

third person said:
Be true. ALWAYS be true. Above all, be fucking TRUE. If your POV character has a certain mindset, no matter how disturbing, be TRUE and show it. And don't nitpick and shiver about offending people, either. I'm black and the terms lucid listed make me laugh, because I find racism to be so stupid it's mind-blowingly funny. Be true.

Its interesting because I feel like some of the slang was created out of a sort of grudging, disavowed respect. Like why call someone who was black anything but an N word, you know?

That word just carries so much hate.

I think some of the other slang was invented so they didn't have to refer to blacks as regular people, but didn't necessarily want it to convey the same sort of hatred.

I either had the very good fortune, or very poor misfortune of growing up in Tennessee, and then going to college in rural Tennessee. It definitely exposed me to some things I'd have never experienced. In addition, I agree with you that racism is laughable: that anyone would judge someone on any physical or geographical attribute is beyond me in this day and age.

The difference is that autistic guys don't tie you to a truck and drag you around in the dirt.

As I said, I refuse to even type the N word, and none of my stories, no matter how racist the character, will ever use it. Although I've had a black prostitute once use the nomenclature "Niggaz" which, as has been explained to me, carries different connotation.

yes, I'm severely white

DeadlyAccurate · Mar 24, 2010

lucidzfl said:
So if you want to take a more PC approach to referring to them, you can use some of the more obscure slang.

All of those you listed are much more offensive than colored, which has always seemed to be (at least in this part of the country) to be a relatively polite word (like using black versus African-American). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the most polite term during that era Negro?

For a book in 1955, using African-American would stand out as the author trying to be PC for the reader and not the way the POV character would think. For that matter, wasn't black considered fairly offensive for the day?

lucidzfl · Mar 24, 2010

DeadlyAccurate, as I understood the OP he was trying to determine how to use terms that were accurate to people in the 50's while still maintaining a 2000's era political correctness. As others said upthread, it depends on the POV.

If its from the POV of the narrator, and the narrator is not a racist, then by all means be politically correct.

If its a POV of a racist, then beating around the bush will feel hollow.

You can't have a racist Irish cop yell out, "Stop, you African American hoodlum" if he would have really said, "Stop right there you N*****." Its not true to the character, or the era.

I was only trying to provide a list of racial epitaphs that the OP could use if he, like myself, wanted to avoid using more recognizable racial slurs of the day and age.

ETA: You do bring up an excellent point though. The geography does matter. I know how NYC would have treated it. I know how Savanna would have treated it. Considering LA was and is one of the most racist areas in the country (like it or not), I think the language would be harsh.

I doubt anyone at the Watts Riots in 65 were yelling "Calm Down, Negros! Please, all colored people, return to your homes."

And that was 15 years AFTER the setting of this story.

third person · Mar 24, 2010

DeadlyAccurate said:
All of those you listed are much more offensive than colored, which has always seemed to be (at least in this part of the country) to be a relatively polite word (like using black versus African-American). Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the most polite term during that era Negro?

For a book in 1955, using African-American would stand out as the author trying to be PC for the reader and not the way the POV character would think. For that matter, wasn't black considered fairly offensive for the day?

Polite? Do you understand the context in which it was used? No, it was most certainly not polite to be treated as if you aren't a man, but a colored, and therefore you have to use the bathrooms and water fountains that are clearly labeled so your kind can better identify them. Or how about the back entrance (exit) intended for use by coloreds to enter the movie theater/nightclub? If you were allowed in at all, that is.

Edit: Let's not make it one of those threads, however. Back to the topic. Lucidzfl said it best right above me.

seen92 · Mar 24, 2010

Truth be told indeed.

Thanks.

seen92 · Mar 24, 2010

All of the advice about what is the correct thing to say, offensive or not, is the way to go.

Yes, I was being "kitteny" (good word) and that leads to compromise, which leads to being lame.

I was always taught to push the envelope and then you can always regress later.

ellisnation · Mar 24, 2010

Don't be PC or polite. Write what your character would say/think. Remember, it's not you thinking/speaking, it's your character and he must be real.

I completely understand why you feel less than comfy using a racial term you're not comfortable with using in real life. I've been there myself when writing a piece from a slave's pov during the civil war. I had to use some pretty offensive language, but it was absolutely needed to ground the reader into the era and struggles my character was dealing with.

This is sort of off topic but...I find it odd that most people will freely use the word "bitch" when referring to a female when women were also oppressed and abused for many years without recourse. But, those same people, are wary of racial slurs.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 24, 2010

Okay, I frankly didn't think I had anything to add to this discussion until I read this:

ellisnation said:
This is sort of off topic but...I find it odd that most people will freely use the word "bitch" when referring to a female when women were also oppressed and abused for many years without recourse. But, those same people, are wary of racial slurs.

Without a doubt, women have suffered plenty of discrimination throughout history (and continue to do so today), but there is no way you can compare these two forms of degradation. Women, historically, have been relegated to second-class citizenship, but they weren't portrayed as subhuman, and they certainly weren't brutalized, harassed and systemically murdered. And in the south, there was plenty of violence directed toward black men (lynchings, burnings, castrations) in defense of a white woman's honor, whether real or imagined.

I do understand what you're trying to say, but I think your comment might just be a little shortsighted.

ellisnation · Mar 24, 2010

"Bitch" is, technically, a submissive term and women have historically been put into submissive roles, yet we throw the word around freely without thinking of what it implies. No biggie--I'm guilty of it, too. I mentioned this because people don't think twice about using language that is offensive unless it's racial, and I just noted that I thought that was interesting.

I wasn't comparing the treatment of women vs. the treatment of African-Americans. I was comparing the usage of offensive language.

ellisnation · Mar 24, 2010

You know what? Now that I think more about it, you irritate me, Hedgetrimmer. If you think, for one minute, that women haven't been brutalized, perhaps you should google a few things...

Start with human trafficking.
Date rape.
Sexual harassment.
Domestic abuse before legal recourse became available.
Illegal sterilzation of poor women.

My first post wasn't about this, but since you called me shortsighted...

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 24, 2010

ellisnation said:
You know what? Now that I think more about it, you irritate me, Hedgetrimmer. If you think, for one minute, that women haven't been brutalized, perhaps you should google a few things...

Start with human trafficking.
Date rape.
Sexual harassment.
Domestic abuse before legal recourse became available.
Illegal sterilzation of poor women.

My first post wasn't about this, but since you called me shortsighted...

You're entitled to be irritated, but I still think you're missing the point. All the above are certainly horrific, but you're citing them out of context to what this thread is about. The term "bitch" has no connotative link to any of those things. Mention the word and no one conjures such images. I would imagine most people think of a loud-mouth, conniving, backstabbing woman. Yet the term "nigger" and all the other racial slurs mentioned above conjure a reality much more disturbing than the above connotations. Perhaps there are offensive terms that carry the same weight as illegal sterilization of women or any of the other atrocities women face, but "bitch" isn't such a word. And that's really what we're talking about here--the use of words and their emotive power.

ellisnation · Mar 24, 2010

While you're at it, google the word bitch.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 24, 2010

ellisnation said:
While you're at it, google the word bitch.

Exactly what is your point? You're obviously impassioned about this word's usage, and yet you admit to tossing it around yourself. I don't use racial slurs, nor do I call women bitches. That you do so, and then take such a staunch position against it, is really quite silly.

ellisnation · Mar 24, 2010

I'm telling you to find out what the word means. Your definition is incorrect.

It's a term, used by breeders, for a female dog. And it is degrading to women, does imply that they're subhuman and subservient. That is why I used it as an example of offensive language.

I'm not impassioned by the word's usage. I don't like posting a comment and someone saying I'm shortsighted when they simply don't understand my point. Calling a woman a bitch should be offensive, but it doesn't seem to be to most people. Yet racial slurs are. Again, I find this odd and interesting.

DeadlyAccurate · Mar 24, 2010

third person said:
Polite? Do you understand the context in which it was used? No, it was most certainly not polite to be treated as if you aren't a man, but a colored, and therefore you have to use the bathrooms and water fountains that are clearly labeled so your kind can better identify them.

Sorry for causing offense. I was born in '74, so all my context comes from movies and elderly Southerners who do actually use the word with the intention of being polite.

lucidzfl · Mar 24, 2010

How, in the holy hell, does a thread about racial slurs, even mention the term date rape.

Sometimes, I really wonder about the people who post here. I mean, SERIOUSLY.

Birol · Mar 24, 2010

Gang, let's keep this thread on-topic. To my understand, we are/were discussing the use of offensive language across eras. How to balance the sensitivities of today's readers while remaining true to the feel of past time periods?

Kosh · Mar 24, 2010

third person said:
Be true. ALWAYS be true. Above all, be fucking TRUE.

^This. You're more likely to offend people by NOT staying true to the time.

third person · Mar 24, 2010

Come now, don't let a misunderstanding turn into something nasty.

Stacia Kane · Mar 24, 2010

It's a tough thing to do sometimes, staying true to what the characters actually think and say, when what they would think and say is offensive to you/others. In UNHOLY GHOSTS I wrote a scene with a very elderly character, who was discussing WWI and WWII. He used "Japs" and "Dagos," which kind of gave me pause; did I really want to write that, you know?

But I had to, because it wouldn't have been true to the character otherwise--he was a pretty sleazy, offensive guy--so I did.

It's weird and uncomfortable, but you really do have to be true to the character(s) and the world. I think it can honestly be more offensive to insert some PC word or phrase instead, because by doing that you're implying that you don't think readers are capable of understanding historical context and accuracy.

Does that make sense?

Tricky question. Application of race in 1955.

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