What is so fascinating/entertaining about evil and the fall

satyesu · Mar 21, 2010

I admit I'm p-art of the population that gets held captive by the descent into darkness of Dr. Horrible ("Dr. Horriible's Singalong Blog"), Anakin Skywalker, Elphaba ("Wicked"), Sassuke ("Naruto"), the hero in Warcraft 3, etc...
And my sister is a huge sucker for the Joker ("The Dark Knight"), and her friend for Itachi (cold killer of his own family in "Naruto")...you get my point.
My question is why the shift from heroism to villainy and why certain villains who are decidedly so is so intriguing and/or entertaining to us (or some), possibly more so than the opposites. Why do you think this is, and is it healthy or condemnable, or neither?

gothicangel · Mar 21, 2010

Well, it runs the breadth of literature so there is something very human about it.

It's that primitive, irrational part that isn't meant to exist; but we can't cut it out either.

satyesu · Mar 21, 2010

I suppose. My question, though, is whether to feed it. (?)

Bubastes · Mar 21, 2010

Why not? I like fallen characters because they aren't evil for evil's sake. Instead, they made the wrong choices for what they thought were the right reasons and became evil. I think characters like that are important because they show that, in some ways, we are all vulnerable to doing dishonorable things if faced with certain circumstances. If the evil characters create empathy and understanding in the reader, I view that as a good thing.

Libbie · Mar 21, 2010

We're all vulnerable, in one way or another, to a fall. Or even to a conscious choice to do wrong. Fallen characters in fiction allow us to explore the possibility of our own fall without actually living it.

As for whether fascination with such characters is healthy or condemnable, I'm a moral relativist. It is what it is, and it's open to interpretation by the observer. Personally, I think interest in such characters is normal and a healthy expression of our own inner fears and weaknesses. Others may feel differently. I'm cool with that.

Should you feed it? Do you mean with your writing, or with your consumption of fiction (whether in book form or other forms)? I say yes, either way. I think the purpose of art is to reflect some truth back on the viewer/reader, to make him or her examine the self and confront all the icky stuff that lives inside right along with all the pretty and nice stuff that lives inside.

gothicangel · Mar 21, 2010

Well we have the choice to either tackle the impulse head on or ignore it. To me, ignoring it is unhealthy and immoral.

I also dislike the term 'evil.' There are evil acts, but no human is motivated by being 'evil.'

Canotila · Mar 21, 2010

I think part of the draw is knowing those characters didn't start out evil. It makes them a little more unpredictable, because watching someone fall apart means they used to be different, and there is a chance they could change again.

Mara · Mar 21, 2010

Another reason they can be interesting is that it's easier to identify with them. I mean, you can identify with Joker a little after "The Killing Joke" and it explains a lot about him. But Sauron? He's just faceless evil who never had any personality. And even villains that have personality can be hard to understand if you don't know their motivations.

greatfish · Mar 21, 2010

Fallen characters are far more complex and interesting than characters who just do good with no real purpose. It's also more realistic, so it's easier to get invested in. Who hasn't fallen before?

gothicangel · Mar 22, 2010

I don't really buy into redemption of the bad-guy stories.

Okay, the Great Expectation-style redemptions, but the bad-guy suddenly realising it might be morally wrong to kill?

Nah, more insulting than anything else.

DrZoidberg · Mar 22, 2010

satyesu said:
I suppose. My question, though, is whether to feed it. (?)

I think this cuts to the basics of what it means to be human, so it's hard to answer in a concise way.

But to put it plainly, I think villains represent freedom. What makes a villain is that they lack one or all of the filters that "normal" people have. It's not that villains think any more horrible thoughts than anybody. What makes them special is that they act on them. That is a liberating act.

The reason why the dichotomy exists between heroes and villains I think is pure instinct. We're a social species. We are hard -wired to care what others think, and this can at times be an almost unbearable pressure. We want to be admired for our positive traits, and we want to hide our negative traits. If heroes have one fundamental and defining characteristic, it is to be socially accepted. We want to be as free as the villain, but admired like the hero. That's a conflict, and stories thrive on conflicts. Heroes and villains. That's also why heroes are boring.

shaldna · Mar 22, 2010

Villans are just so much more fun than good guys.

Satsya · Mar 22, 2010

Poking in again to poke stuff.

DrZoidberg said:
But to put it plainly, I think villains represent freedom. What makes a villain is that they lack one or all of the filters that "normal" people have. It's not that villains think any more horrible thoughts than anybody. What makes them special is that they act on them. That is a liberating act.

Many heroes do this, as well. Ever read a Shonen Jump manga? The hero is usually brash, and acting on filterless emotions. The rebel hero versus the government is a common story -- think of Star Wars! You think those guys in the Death Star are more emotional and liberated than the rebels? *insert joke about enjoying telepathic chokeholds here*

DrZoidberg said:
The reason why the dichotomy exists between heroes and villains I think is pure instinct. We're a social species. We are hard -wired to care what others think, and this can at times be an almost unbearable pressure. We want to be admired for our positive traits, and we want to hide our negative traits. If heroes have one fundamental and defining characteristic, it is to be socially accepted. We want to be as free as the villain, but admired like the hero. That's a conflict, and stories thrive on conflicts. Heroes and villains. That's also why heroes are boring.

There are many heroes that don't care about being socially accepted: in fact, I would venture to say that most don't. Think of all the stories that start off with the hero in a stable society. They then go against that society, and that is what moves the story forward.

A well-known example of this would be Disney's version of Beauty and the Beast. Think of the scene when the entire village is against Belle and the Beast. Think even of Lord of the Rings, and how both Bilbo and Frodo are ostracized for being too adventurous among hobbits. Neither are what you would call 'straining for social acceptance'.

Heroes are not boring. Bad writers make heroes boring. Good writers make heroes interesting.

gothicangel · Mar 22, 2010

My protaganist is quite happy to cross the ethical boundary, regularly alienating the police and government.

My antagonist wants to be socially accepted, but to find justice he needs to gain vengeance in the margins of society.

Think Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Jekyll's transformation in to Hyde allows him to taste the pleasures forbidden by society.

DrZoidberg · Mar 22, 2010

Satsya said:
Poking in again to poke stuff.

Many heroes do this, as well. Ever read a Shonen Jump manga? The hero is usually brash, and acting on filterless emotions. The rebel hero versus the government is a common story -- think of Star Wars! You think those guys in the Death Star are more emotional and liberated than the rebels? *insert joke about enjoying telepathic chokeholds here*

There are many heroes that don't care about being socially accepted: in fact, I would venture to say that most don't. Think of all the stories that start off with the hero in a stable society. They then go against that society, and that is what moves the story forward.

A well-known example of this would be Disney's version of Beauty and the Beast. Think of the scene when the entire village is against Belle and the Beast. Think even of Lord of the Rings, and how both Bilbo and Frodo are ostracized for being too adventurous among hobbits. Neither are what you would call 'straining for social acceptance'.

Heroes are not boring. Bad writers make heroes boring. Good writers make heroes interesting.

He he. You missed my point entirely. Not within the story. In reality. As if the characters really existed in the world of the reader's. Not in the story itself. Never forget that the reader isn't a passive recepticle. The reader is an active participant in the story, creating it and its world in their own minds as the story progresses.

So, you need to come up a dimension to understand what it is I said.

Torrance · Mar 22, 2010

Most of us obey the law. We live within the boundaries of what society deems to be decent and moral behavior. When we are exposed to those characters that color outside of the lines, we enjoy the vicarious romp. If the character was once decent and goes off, we can relate all the more because we have all considered/imagined making such choices. I agree, it's insulting if a killer has a sudden shift in which he/she finds murder immoral or repugnant. Change doesn't happen like that. It's tough enough to change small behaviors in every day life. You can't have such sweeping moral shifts and be considered credible (at least where I'm concerned). Wild shifts like those found in comic books are not reality.

C.M.C. · Mar 22, 2010

It's because following the rules and being nice doesn't allow for any conflict. It's boring.

gothicangel · Mar 22, 2010

I think it depends on circumstances.

Look at Revenge Tragedies. In The Spanish Tragedy, Hieronimo is motivated by his son's murder, but knows justice isn't possible, so how must he take virtuous action in an evil world?

kaitie · Mar 22, 2010

I think for me it's the recognition that there's darkness in everyone and watching someone take a fall that you know could happen to you or anyone else as well under the right circumstances. I also tend to feel a bit more like it makes it easier to sympathize with them as a villain. I'd much prefer someone I can understand as opposed to someone who was just evil for the sake of being evil. It's easier to forgive somehow as well.

I'm one of those really nice, sweet, too good for my own benefit sometimes type of people, but I love me a good villain.

Lady Ice · Mar 22, 2010

Because what you once were is more poignant/emotive than someone who has always been a certain way. We want to look for light in the darkness.

Evil is different from a fallen villain. The fascination with evil probably stems from fascination with something completely different to you. Literature allows you to explore the darker sides of life without getting hurt.

gothicangel · Mar 22, 2010

I HATE the word 'evil.'

No-one is born evil, there are only evil acts. There have to be motivations, otherwise you're nothing better than a lazy writer.

Satsya · Mar 22, 2010

Well, I guess I don't fit in in this thread

.

Nowadays I have no innate desire to see the 'hidden' darker side of people, or me. It's already too easy to find that sort of thing in reality as it is.

And Zoidberg, speaking of story versus reality: You say it as though there should be a huge difference, but there isn't. There's another batch of counters to your argument with real life examples, and all of my previous points still stand -- heroes are called heroes precisely because they don't just do what society wants. In fact what they all have in common is that they put their desire for change way above their desire to fit in with society.

DrZoidberg · Mar 23, 2010

Satsya said:
Well, I guess I don't fit in in this thread .

Nowadays I have no innate desire to see the 'hidden' darker side of people, or me. It's already too easy to find that sort of thing in reality as it is.

And Zoidberg, speaking of story versus reality: You say it as though there should be a huge difference, but there isn't. There's another batch of counters to your argument with real life examples, and all of my previous points still stand -- heroes are called heroes precisely because they don't just do what society wants. In fact what they all have in common is that they put their desire for change way above their desire to fit in with society.

Ok, I'll try to explain what I mean in more basic terms. "What society wants" is what the reader wants. Its the reader who creates the world, and is therefore the entirety of society. The reader is supposed to like the hero. That's pretty much the definition of a hero. If the reader doesn't like the hero, it's not much of a hero. A likeable hero by the reader is somebody that acts in a way that is socially acceptable.

The reader is supposed to be attracted to the villain (no, I don't mean sexually). We're supposed to desire having that same freedom, and moral latitude. All villains has a go at society, ie the society that the reader has created. It's the reader who creates moral boundaries. The story doesn't do that. When somebody in the story crosses a moral boundary, there's no cue about it. The translation between the readers world and the stories, is seamless in this regard.

Try imagine the reader pre-reading a novel and editing it with a marker pen clearly marking moral and immoral acts, (according to the reader). Then when they read the novel properly, they won't have to think for themselves, but they have cues about when to be upset or cheer.

Do you still think I'm bat shit insane?

gothicangel · Mar 23, 2010

I would dispute that the dark side is 'hidden.' It's there every time we experience rage; envy; or jealousy.

It's a bit of a Victorian throwback to believe that it can be ignored.

Lady Ice · Mar 26, 2010

Satsya said:
Well, I guess I don't fit in in this thread .

Nowadays I have no innate desire to see the 'hidden' darker side of people, or me. It's already too easy to find that sort of thing in reality as it is.

And Zoidberg, speaking of story versus reality: You say it as though there should be a huge difference, but there isn't. There's another batch of counters to your argument with real life examples, and all of my previous points still stand -- heroes are called heroes precisely because they don't just do what society wants. In fact what they all have in common is that they put their desire for change way above their desire to fit in with society.

Anti-heroes rebel against society. Heroes normally fight for moral good.

What is so fascinating/entertaining about evil and the fall

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