The first five pages...

mtrenteseau · Mar 17, 2010

I had an agent ask for the first five pages - the agency used to require that automatically with the query, but it doesn't say that in the submission guidelines anymore.

The rejection I got today was something to the effect of "the first five pages just didn't grab me as I thought they would."

Originally my first five pages began with the MC getting awakened by the police, who inform him that his girlfriend's boss was found dead in the MC's office. Then I decided it would be much more interesting to have a few pages where the girlfriend's boss actually goes to the office and gets killed.

The best and most thorough feedback I've gotten from an agent (who, I might had, has not explicitly rejected me) was from one who asked for the first 100 pages. She said that the first three chapters were cliched and overly procedural, but starting with chapter 4 (page 32) she loved it. So I trimmed ten pages of the first three chapters, and added a bit to explain the relationship between the MC and the victim.

I suppose there's something boring and procedural about the first three chapters still, there's just much less of it. I'm sure I committed the first-timer's sin of putting way too much exposition in the beginning of the book, which I've fixed.

But what next? Is it really vital that the reader get drawn in on the first five pages? Personally, I open to the middle of a book to see if it's worth reading.

Stanmiller · Mar 17, 2010

It seems to depend on the genre.

For thriller/suspense - the consensus seems to be grab 'em by the b#lls and pound the crap out of 'em right from the start.

For mystery, the advice seems to lean toward starting with the crime, but don't show the killer.

For literary, as long as you use the words angst and schadenfreude (shadanfraud?) somewhere in the first three pages, you're OK.

--Stan, with his Kevlar on. :evil

MarkEsq · Mar 17, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
But what next? Is it really vital that the reader get drawn in on the first five pages?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes yes yes yes yes.

Without a doubt. You may do it differently, looking at the middle of the book, but you are not trying to pitch it to you. An agent, an editor, and eventually a reader, will look at the first five pages. Heck, the first ONE page.

You should be encouraged by the feedback, and take it to heart. But to answer your question:
Yes.

mtrenteseau · Mar 17, 2010

Mark, I'm waiting for a third one to say it so I can buy a saddle.

I'm trying to make the first three chapters more interesting and speed up the pace, but one of the keys to the mystery is that the victim left dinner, sneaked into someone's office, and fell over dead. That doesn't lend itself to car chases and explosions.

Still trying to work in a murder attempt on the MC, but I haven't quite figured out how. It's going to be after page 200, though, so no agent will see it unless they request a full.

scarletpeaches · Mar 17, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
Personally, I open to the middle of a book to see if it's worth reading.

Once you've bought a book, which page do you start reading on? There's your answer.

leahzero · Mar 17, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
Is it really vital that the reader get drawn in on the first five pages?

Yes.

But.

Don't misconstrue "get drawn in" with "beat them over the head with sensational hyperviolence or another cliché shock tactic designed to arrest attention in a cheap and exploitative manner."

Because there is so much importance heaped upon immediately gripping the reader, I think we have a tendency to reduce "gripping" to cheap sensationalism.

You don't need to cram every single moment of the opening pages with breathless action, witty dialogue, or (insert genre cliché here).

Just write well, tell a compelling story, and avoid cliché--both the sensational and ordinary.

alleycat · Mar 17, 2010

If you really want to learn the importance of the first few pages (some say three, some five, some ten), be a beta reader for two or three other writers. I'm serious. I probably didn't really understand how someone could judge someone's writing or whole book in only 1000 words or so until I started reading a lot of other people's unpublished work.

kaitie · Mar 17, 2010

I'm much less picky about this than an agent would be. I'll give a book a whole lot of pages and see if it gets better. It doesn't have to do it for me in the first five pages. That's me, though. I also never read pages before buying, mostly because I like to finish everything I start.

Anyway, the rejection sounds like a form to me (I've gotten the same wording a few times), and it might literally mean that, or it might mean that there was a different problem with the writing or something as well. Have you posted it in SYW? Especially if no one's really critiqued it for you since you made the changes, it could help.

mtrenteseau · Mar 17, 2010

kaitie said:
Anyway, the rejection sounds like a form to me (I've gotten the same wording a few times), and it might literally mean that, or it might mean that there was a different problem with the writing or something as well. Have you posted it in SYW? Especially if no one's really critiqued it for you since you made the changes, it could help.

It's very possibly a form. But it agreed with a lengthier critique I received from another agent, that the beginning was too slow.

The agent who made the lengthier critique asked me to resubmit when I'd cleaned up the first three chapters. I have, and sent it last night. Once I get her response, I'll put it on SYW.

heyjude · Mar 18, 2010

Add me to the yes. If you don't hook me in the first couple of pages, I'm on to the next book. Agents will give you even less time.

Have you read Lukeman's The First Five Pages? Excellent book that addresses this exact issue.

Namatu · Mar 18, 2010

The first five pages are very important. By the end of them - or at least by the end of the first chapter - the reader should know who the MC is, what the MC wants, and what's standing in the way (even if it's the first in a line of dominoes). All my opinion, but I've found that keeping this goal in mind helps me to better gauge whether I'm starting in the right place. If I need a few chapters to make things clear, my approach is off.

sheadakota · Mar 18, 2010

Yes X infinity- Hook me or lose me.

Maybe you're trying to explain to much in those first pages- I've been guilty of the sam thing- Give the reader some credit- they don't have to know everything up front-

Jamesaritchie · Mar 19, 2010

Most novel manuscripts get rejected before page two, so, yes, the first five pages are all-important.

Opening to the middle of a book may work for you, though I don't see how a good middle could make the first hundred or so pages worth reading to get there, but no one is going to flip to the middle of your novel to see if it's worth reading.

This maybe a form rejection, but if so, it's a form on the first five pages, not on the query itself, and that makes a world of difference. Another agent may react differently, but if you get two or three similar rejections on those same five pages, it's definitely time to change them.

I don't care what the genre is, if those first five pages don't darwn the reader in, and keep them in with each successive page, the book isn't going to sell.

This doesn't mean you need explosions or a high body count, but it does mean the story has to start with the first sentence, and you have to make the reader want to know what happens next.

gothicangel · Mar 19, 2010

When I'm browsing in a bookshop you don't have 5 pages to convince me.

More like three sentences.

gp101 · Mar 20, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
Is it really vital that the reader get drawn in on the first five pages? Personally, I open to the middle of a book to see if it's worth reading.

Then you are that rare bird. In another response in this thread you referenced car chases and explosions, or something like that. You don't need that to hook someone on page one. Very interesting (funny, different, irreverent) characters can accomplish this, or tight, well-written plot that demands the reader to go on to find out where this is going.

My guess is you might be starting with backstory or unrelated day-to-day minutia that has little to do with the story, or can be put on hold till you grab the reader by the short and curlies.

mtrenteseau · Mar 21, 2010

UPDATE...

Three weeks ago, I got a request for a partial from an agent. She was effusive in her praise, but said the book started slow.

I trimmed the first three chapters by a third, tightened up the action, and developed the relationship between the MC and the victim.

Sent the update on Wednesday, just got this response:

"Now this reads like most of the other submissions I receive. I'm not interested in seeing any more, thanks."

I'm not sure how to take her initial criticism now. I'm assuming that in the interest of getting to the action more quickly I took out something that made it enjoyable.

I'm also thinking that I'm going to put the first three chapters back the way they were and re-think how I get the action going.

Carlene · Mar 21, 2010

I loved Lukeman's book and agree completely. He said sometimes you book might even be bought on the first paragraph. I agree with SP, grab 'em right off the bat.

Carlene

Mind Echoes
Stormy Love
The Worst Evil
www.whiskeycreekpress.com

Call Sign: Love
The Colors of Death
An Extra Pair of Eyes
www.writewordsinc.com

Finder
www.wildchildpublishing.com

Mysterious Gift
www.cobblestone-press.com

Roman Circus - 5/17/10
www.nobleromancepublishing.com

Sassy3421 · Mar 21, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
UPDATE...

I trimmed the first three chapters by a third, tightened up the action, and developed the relationship between the MC and the victim.

Sent the update on Wednesday, just got this response:

"Now this reads like most of the other submissions I receive. I'm not interested in seeing any more, thanks."

I'm not sure how to take her initial criticism now. i

One thing I've learned is you can't please everyone. well it's very important to get your reader hooked right away, at the same point you can't sacrifice your hard work based on what a couple agents may have come back with.

I'd take their advice seriously, but at the same time, don't rush to change your book for them. Read some books on the craft, and different techniques that can be used to pull a reader in. Analyze and see how they apply to your work. Possibly even take a break from the book for a couple weeks and then go back to it with fresh eyes. At that point you can decide whether to make changes or approach more agents to get wider feedback.

mtrenteseau · Mar 21, 2010

Carlene said:
I loved Lukeman's book and agree completely. He said sometimes you book might even be bought on the first paragraph. I agree with SP, grab 'em right off the bat.

The First Five Pages is available at several bookstores near me - I'll try to get it today. Maybe I'll take Mark Twain: The Man in White out of my briefcase and read this on the plane.

heyjude · Mar 21, 2010

Oh, mtrenteseau, that just *blows*. I'm really sorry. If you want a fresh pair of eyes, PM me. I have some free time mid-week. :Hug2:

mtrenteseau · Mar 21, 2010

heyjude said:
Oh, mtrenteseau, that just *blows*. I'm really sorry. If you want a fresh pair of eyes, PM me. I have some free time mid-week.

Thanks! PM sent.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 21, 2010

Carlene said:
He said sometimes you book might even be bought on the first paragraph. I agree with SP, grab 'em right off the bat.

Only if you're already a well-published writer. Lukeman says a lot of things, but I've been in this business for thirty years, and I have yet to see a novel from a new writer sell before someone reads the ending.

Jamesaritchie · Mar 21, 2010

mtrenteseau said:
UPDATE...

Three weeks ago, I got a request for a partial from an agent. She was effusive in her praise, but said the book started slow.

I trimmed the first three chapters by a third, tightened up the action, and developed the relationship between the MC and the victim.

Sent the update on Wednesday, just got this response:

"Now this reads like most of the other submissions I receive. I'm not interested in seeing any more, thanks."

I'm not sure how to take her initial criticism now. I'm assuming that in the interest of getting to the action more quickly I took out something that made it enjoyable.

I'm also thinking that I'm going to put the first three chapters back the way they were and re-think how I get the action going.

Just my experience, but I've found that trimming doesn't work very well. Complete cutting, yes, but trimming, no.

Cutting doesn't actually change your work, it merely changes the starting point. Trimming does change your work.

Though, honestly, I'd look for other agents. This one sound like she either just doesn't like your writing, or she's a bit of a flake.

mtrenteseau · Mar 21, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
Just my experience, but I've found that trimming doesn't work very well. Complete cutting, yes, but trimming, no.

Cutting doesn't actually change your work, it merely changes the starting point. Trimming does change your work.

Though, honestly, I'd look for other agents. This one sound like she either just doesn't like your writing, or she's a bit of a flake.

I took out bits of exposition that seemed like they would work just as well or better later in the book. If I'm to take the second opinion at face value, it's that exposition that made the first three chapters good.

Going from effusive praise to this last e-mail is a bit shocking. I'm going to keep looking for an agent.

And I've added a dollar or so to Mr. Lukeman's next royalty check... I doubt that a first paragraph could sell a book, unless, as you said, it's a well-known author. But getting an agent is the first step, so I suppose it's possible that a fantastic first paragraph could hook an agent who happens to have the right connections to get the manuscript read by the right publisher.

JayG · Mar 21, 2010

The first five are vital for lots of reasons, but Sol Stein put it best when he said, “A novel is like a car—it won’t go anywhere until you turn on the engine. The “engine” of both fiction and nonfiction is the point at which the reader makes the decision not to put the book down. The engine should start in the first three pages, the closer to the top of page one the better.”

In bookstore studies, they’ve found that the average reader looks at three pages or less when making a buy/pass decision on a given book.

Five pages, to the editor/agent, is often the point where, if they’re still reading, they’ll put it aside for a better look later (which is why Noah Lukeman chose The First Five Pages for the title of his book).

The first five pages...

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

Clever title pending.

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

The colors! THE COLORS!

Still around

With great power comes

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

Making my own sunshine

Lost in mental space.

part of the human equation

Toughen up.

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

New kid, be gentle!

Plotting murder..most of the time

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

Making my own sunshine

Mild-mannered accountant by day...

Mild-mannered accountant by day...