Trying to worldbuild an all-female militia

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IanMorrison

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In my world, I've got a culture known as the Aventa that's very conservative in a lot of respects. In the time period I'm thinking about at the moment, technology and society is roughly equivalent to that of the Roman empire for these people. The society places men and women in clearly defined gender roles, and it would be inconcievable for women to find their way into the military structure.

However, these people are often at war with another culture known as the Shiagai that is heavily militaristic, and who consider all healthy adults--regardless of gender--members of the military. They don't put much stock in a civilian versus military distinction. They're also quite notorious for sending raiding parties into Aventan territory to cause trouble, pillage, and possibly even take slaves. Often, when they do so, the Aventan men are already off to war, meaning that outlying villages and towns are essentially undefended, and the Shiagai's unorthodox views on warfare mean that noncombatant women are treated effectively the same as combatant men. It's not so much "preying on the weak" as "you're all valid targets, and if you're dumb enough not to arm yourselves its your own damned fault. Get over it."

With most of the men gone, I'm thinking of a cultural institution developing in rural areas which allows women in this otherwise conservative society to form a militia for self-defense. It'd be a seasonal affair, coming into effect just before the war season to give them a chance to prepare and train before raiders started riding in. I was thinking that the women participating in the militias could be called "Midsummer Roses" in reference both to the war season as well as to the Aventan habit of applying floral descriptions to women (though notably choosing a flower with thorns). I was also thinking that membership would be restricted mainly to childless/unmarried women in the community, though I wonder if that would restrict the size of the militia too much to actually be effective. Something analogous to the sworn virgins in Albania could arise for those who don't wish to leave the organization or who are trying to avoid an arranged marriage.

This would all be very far back in the history of the world I'm creating. Over the centuries that would follow, the organization would have to adapt to the changing face of warfare and new social norms. The eventual move towards roughly 1940's level technology and the practise of total war would probably turn it into something more akin to a national guard, and it would also need to respond to (and probably cause) a fair amount of liberalization in terms of women's rights over the centuries. A later cataclysm that obliterates the world population would also enforce changes on them, perhaps by emphasizing peacekeeping/police duties.

To me this seems like a decent start, but since one of my main characters is going to be an ex-member of the militia it doesn't seem sufficient. So, what do you guys think? Does the name "Midsummer Roses" work, or does it seem too poetic/verbose/contrived? What are some directions I could take this? And, perhaps, are there any historical precedents I might have missed?

I'm eager for your thoughts!
 

defyalllogic

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is it a romance? that title makes me think romance...
 

Bing Z

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Midsummer Roses sound more like poets and dancers to me than warriors. But this isn't as crucial to me as the following:

You're talking about the warfare that relies much on physique and brunt force. Do the Shiagai separate their raid parties into male and female parties and only send females to attack Aventan territories that will be guarded by Midsummer Roses?

I'm sorry, I don't believe females in this warfare can stand a chance against their male counterparts with Roman Empire era weapons. Put in magic or weapons that don't rely that much on physique, and we can talk again.

Or, if this happens in 29th century in the Galaxy of Tulips where lightsaber is the standard issue weapon, that will be different.

ETA: Regarding: stand a chance. Actually, once in a while the roses may score a victory, but on the long term, I don't believe they can make it, given the weapon technology.
 
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Brukaviador

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Being only allowed to practice at certain times seems a little pointless to me. I don't think they'd be able to learn or retain the necessary skills in order to be effective when it comes time for the seasonal raids. Learning to use a weapon effectively takes years of continual practice. One month a year probably isn't going to cut it.

One alternative might be that the women can practice any time they like but are only allowed to use certain weapons. There's a lot of precedence for that in some tribal societies. The men are the hand to hand or melee type warriors and the women can fight but they can only use ranged weapons like slings, javelins or bows.

When you get to the more modern setting, perhaps this idea could carry over to women being placed into artillery or pilot positions as opposed to marines storming a beach. They may make effective snipers too. That could be cool. The men do the infantry while the women provide the cover fire.
 

IanMorrison

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@ defyalllogic:

No, not so much. Very obviously on the wrong track, then.

Midsummer Roses sound more like poets and dancers to me than warriors. But this isn't as crucial to me as the following:

You're talking about the warfare that relies much on physique and brunt force. Do the Shiagai separate their raid parties into male and female parties and only send females to attack Aventan territories that will be guarded by Midsummer Roses?

I'm sorry, I don't believe females in this warfare can stand a chance against their male counterparts with Roman Empire era weapons. Put in magic or weapons that don't rely that much on physique, and we can talk again.

Or, if this happens in 29th century in the Galaxy of Tulips where lightsaber is the standard issue weapon, that will be different.

There is a limited form of magic which can even the odds. However, in the Shiagai case there's less of a difference in size and strength between the genders, and the women make up a smaller percentage of the fighting force (their society is ostensibly a meritocracy, so those women would usually be the biggest and strongest available to fight, or otherwise able to make up for smaller size with skills like archery or the aforementioned magic. They don't allow the women in on charity, they still have to pull their weight.)

"Midsummer Roses" gives me much the same impression as you get from it, but I've been unable to come up with much better. It's probably too many syllables as well. What I liked about it was mixing traditional metaphors for female beauty in with an oblique reference to the warmaking season, but there must be a better way to do that. However, I haven't been able to think of it... quite frankly, I'm terrible at naming things.

@ Viktor:

Good point on the practise. Nix that, then, it'd be more of a year round thing.

Also a good idea on the weapons. As Bingain pointed out they'd be far less suited to this kind of combat than their men would be, since unlike the Shiagai the difference between genders is worthy of consideration. Restricting the weapon choices would also make sense if they were mostly fighting behind fortifications.

Interesting idea on the modern warfare angle. That could even lead to a stigma on those positions among male fighters... "real men fight in the trenches!" At the very least, could make for some spirited inter-divisional rivalries!
 

IanMorrison

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So, basically, the Shigai just have more troops than the Aventa? It would seem like the men would start staying back to guard their settlements, as opposed to going off and leaving them unprotected. Also, why haven't the Shiagai conquered them already?

I'm thinking a possible explanation for why the men wouldn't simply start staying behind would be nobility enforcing Carolingian-like policies with regards to military service, basically mandating that every able bodied man lug his ass out with a cart full of supplies to the muster for whatever campaign the king is planning. Numerically, the Aventans would be superior, but they'd be throwing their weight against opponents trained from a young age for warfare, sometimes in unforgiving terrain that the enemy knew well. This'd be especially true if the campaigns were aiming at stamping out the damned barbarians who keep raiding the outskirts of the empire!

As for why the Shiagai didn't just conquer them, they probably did conquer a few Aventan kingdoms at one point or another, but lacked the manpower to hold those conquests. Even if they did, they're really more interested in fighting, tasting victory, and going home to tell tales of battle than expanding territory.
 
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Brukaviador

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Interesting idea on the modern warfare angle. That could even lead to a stigma on those positions among male fighters... "real men fight in the trenches!" At the very least, could make for some spirited inter-divisional rivalries!

It doesn't even have to be a stigma. There are a lot of cultures around the world that basically say "This is what a woman does and this is what a man does, now get to work." It's just generally accepted that they would do the jobs they're most suited for and wouldn't have any thoughts about trying the other. It's more about people just doing their part for the greater good of their families and their society, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "shouldn't" or "can't".
 

Bing Z

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@ IanMorrison. Okay, you actually have thought about this and have worked (thought) around this issue. You just need to identify them.

Incorporating what Viktor said, you can also draw inspiration from the Russians during WWII. I remember one photo of Moscow. They were digging trenches. Thousands of them. All women, because all men had already been sent to the front-line to combat the German.

And then they had tens of thousands of women volunteer to fight in the military, in the front-line. They had 3 roles these women could play: nurses, snipers, and fighter pilots.
 

IanMorrison

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It doesn't even have to be a stigma. There are a lot of cultures around the world that basically say "This is what a woman does and this is what a man does, now get to work." It's just generally accepted that they would do the jobs they're most suited for and wouldn't have any thoughts about trying the other. It's more about people just doing their part for the greater good of their families and their society, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "shouldn't" or "can't".

True, but in this case there probably wouldn't be enough women in the armed forces to justify making all the snipers, artillerymen, and pilots women. Those divisions would still have men, probably still even be male dominated. They'd just be the only divisions where women would be allowed to serve.
 

SPMiller

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As long as you don't risk the women in combat, I don't see any logistical issues with an all-female "militia".
 

Rhys Cordelle

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I'm liking the sound of this :)

Maybe for their name you could name them after a poisonous flower rather than a rose. Nightshade is probably a bit cliche, but something along those lines.
 

Canotila

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Nightshade is good. Or maybe something with a bite, like nettles? Or a plant used to poison arrows/blades? People used to use wolf's bane to poison arrows for wolf hunting. Maybe your ladies could use similar tactics in defense of their homes.

I liked how the female pilots during WWII were called WASPs. Real wasps are fierce, can be deadly, fight as a team, and live in an essentially all female community.
 

Polenth

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Women with some token training won't survive against experienced raiders. So why would they only train the women for a short time each year? Given the circumstances, they'd train girls to fight as soon as they old enough to use a weapon. Practicality takes over.

You can see this in Britain during the world wars. Men didn't want to let women work as welders and other traditionally male jobs, but they had no choice.

It doesn't mean your society has equal rights. The world war eras certainly didn't. The women who took traditionally male jobs were fired at the end of the war and expected to go back to their old jobs. If the raids in your story stopped for some reason, it's be entirely likely that the militias would be disbanded, training would stop, and that would be that.
 

SPMiller

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Wait... training? You're not really considering letting these women see combat, are you? If this nation has been risking (and therefore losing) its most important resource, women, in battle, then it has already lost the war long ago and is well on the way to complete extinction.
 

Bing Z

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I liked how the female pilots during WWII were called WASPs. Real wasps are fierce, can be deadly, fight as a team, and live in an essentially all female community.

And speaking about the WWII female pilots, the Germans called one of the Russian all-female night bomber regiments the "Night Witches." This is not a beautiful/flowery name, but it surely is a huge compliment. Those chicks even flew obsolete wood and canvas planes. I'd, personally, prefer this kind of names over any Roses/Magnolia.
 

Nivarion

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Wait... training? You're not really considering letting these women see combat, are you? If this nation has been risking (and therefore losing) its most important resource, women, in battle, then it has already lost the war long ago and is well on the way to complete extinction.

I disagree. A militia is a low organized group of moderately trained fighters that protect their homes and their neighbours until a better trained force comes to replace them.

Placing all of your stay at home men and women into a militia that trains year round makes you a much tougher enemy and gives you a better chance against your enemies.

Since women have some advantages in combat over men. They have wider hips which allows them a lower center of gravity. Means they're harder to knock down.

To make up for the lesser upper body strength I'd recommend equipping them with halberds. the weapon is long enough that you can use it at a distance, and then choke up on it for closer combat.

Since you use both hands you can put more strength into it. The handle was wood and had no guards so most techniques for defending yourself are quick deflecting strikes.

as for offense, most attacks with the halberd are designed to pull or knock your enemies down and place the pike in a soft spot. which doesn't take a lot of muscle if the pike is sharp.

also, trying to get someone out of a door way that has one is not very fun. :D

one thing for you to consider though.

Who's watching the fields for the one where both men and women fight? heck, who's watching the fields for both of them?
 

Canotila

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Since they are on the defensive, and know they are going to be on the defensive, that gives them an advantage too. They can arrange/fortify their housing in such a way that makes it easier to fend off intruders.
 

Etola

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I was also thinking that membership would be restricted mainly to childless/unmarried women in the community, though I wonder if that would restrict the size of the militia too much to actually be effective. Something analogous to the sworn virgins in Albania could arise for those who don't wish to leave the organization or who are trying to avoid an arranged marriage.

Restricting it to childless or unmarried women would really limit its effective size, I think. Especially in a society with Roman-era technology and values, women would more than likely be married off at a younger age. Especially if the country is at war, because their prime childbearing years will need to be taken advantage of. And the society probably wouldn't be too keen on having a segment of its female population substantial enough to defend its villages all swear virginity.

Perhaps there is a system in place to ensure that if a militia member dies and leaves behind children, those children are taken care of? Perhaps when a member has children, she must appoint another woman (who is not a militia member--perhaps an older relative?) to be her children's caretaker should she fall in battle.

Anyway, those are my two cents. And, for what it's worth, I like the Roses name. Maybe not Midsummer if you think that is too clunky or, ahem, 'flowery.' What about just the Aventa Roses?
 

FebruaryStars

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Just looked up a few flower meanings, and the meanings of some girl's names that are also varieties of flowers.... might trigger something?

Euphorbia: Persistence
Eremurus: Endurance (also called foxtail lillies, or desert candles)
Lantana: Rigor

acacia - means 'thorny tree'
cliantha - means 'glory-flower'
larkspur - a flower with blue spear shaped petals
 

jennontheisland

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I disagree. A militia is a low organized group of moderately trained fighters that protect their homes and their neighbours until a better trained force comes to replace them.

Placing all of your stay at home men and women into a militia that trains year round makes you a much tougher enemy and gives you a better chance against your enemies.

Part timers fighting with field tools aren't going to last long against a proper army of invaders, or even a group of determined raiders. Unless that trained force is just over the hill, the neighbours will be wiped out pretty much as soon as they would have been without the training.

Also, training takes time. Farmers, craftsmen and other non-military don't have the time to dedicate to it. They need to be doing things like farming and milling grain so that the real army can eat.

Since women have some advantages in combat over men. They have wider hips which allows them a lower center of gravity. Means they're harder to knock down.
No we're not. You get a 200 pound guy swinging a bat at me, I'm going down whether I'm 5 feet tall or 6 feet tall.

Women's wider hips did not evolve to lower our gravity to improve our combat abilities. They widened so we can pass 8 pound humans into the world. And putting women in combat situations severely limits a population's ability to reproduce. SPMiller is right, you want women to fight, you better figure out a way for men to handle gestation, or your population will have more issues than just needing to win a battle.

To make up for the lesser upper body strength I'd recommend equipping them with halberds. the weapon is long enough that you can use it at a distance, and then choke up on it for closer combat.

Since you use both hands you can put more strength into it. The handle was wood and had no guards so most techniques for defending yourself are quick deflecting strikes.

as for offense, most attacks with the halberd are designed to pull or knock your enemies down and place the pike in a soft spot. which doesn't take a lot of muscle if the pike is sharp.

You want to give small people with limited upper body strength a long weapon with most of its weight concentrated on one end? Dude, you need to brush up on your physics. The leverage required to properly wield a halberd takes a lot of upper body strength.

And if you're using both hands, you don't have one free for a defensive weapon, like a shield.

If you insist on putting women in battle situations, a short light sword makes a lot more sense than a long heavy pike.

one thing for you to consider though.

Who's watching the fields for the one where both men and women fight? heck, who's watching the fields for both of them?

This is the third thread that I can recall in the last few months about women being warriors in fantasy settings.

I realize everyone's trying to be progressive and PC and eliminate gender bias and whatnot, but women make babies. There's no getting around the biology of that. You risk women in battle, you risk your population's ability to procreate. It's not smart.

If you really want to empower women in your stories and make them equal to men or greater than men, don't make them cannon fodder. Make them generals. Your population will be a lot better off with them in command than it will be with them on the battle field.
 
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dirtsider

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First of all, women would be stronger than most people these days realize because of all the manual labor. Now, they won't be equal to men in sheer strength but they won't be shrinking violets either. Milkmaids, for example. (when they milked by hand) actually had a lot of arm strength. And it was only when milking became mechanized that men became the primary workers in the 'field'.

And farmers (male or female) would more likely use farming equipment like scythes, sciles, daggers/long knives, or the butchering equipment. They're on hand - probably already in their hands. They're also comfortable using them in their every day lives and know the range and weight of them. Swords and other military specific weapons would be an expense they would think twice about, especially since it would most likely hanging on the wall. The closest thing they might have would be bows and slings because they could be used for regular hunting as well.

The biggest threat to a farmer wouldn't be the weapons. It would be the numbers and sheer training the military gets.
 

Ambri

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If this nation has been risking (and therefore losing) its most important resource, women, in battle, then it has already lost the war long ago and is well on the way to complete extinction.

I have to respectfully disagree with this (and with the others who have said similar things.) Yes, of COURSE you need women to reproduce, so their society won't shrink by each successive generation. However, what if, instead of restricting this militia to virgins, you restrict it to ONLY women who've already borne at least 1-3 or more children? You can have these villages set up in a similar way to the motte-and-bailey set up of early-medieval Europe, with a fortified towerhouse protected by a wall in the middle, surrounded by a larger walled/ fenced area, where the houses, storehouses, workshops, stables, etc., are, with a catwalk along the inside of the wall. In the event of a raid, the children can be tended in a creche type scenario, with the elders or older children taking them into the tower while their mothers fight.

One thing that many urbanites forget is that, with the exceptions of the crazy-busy planting at the beginning and harvesting at the end of the growing season, mostly farmers tended livestock, pulled weeds, and ensured their crops got enough water (in drier climates). This means that these women could feasibly BOTH tend to the fields AND train to defend their turf. How do these Shiaga folks live? If they're farming, I'd assume they'd have to take a break from their warlike pursuits to get in the harvest, too. If they have slaves to do all the manual labor . . . well, who tends these slaves? I believe in the Viking system, the women stayed at home, tending to the housecarls and other serfs/ servants, while the men went a-raiding.

Give your warrior women light katanas, or big ol' Welsh style longbows. Those were some powerful suckers. Even a 40 or 60-pound draw bow would have a pretty impressive range.

BTW . . . on names: Briar Roses, Thistles . . . I think there's something called Sweetbriar. Or, think along terms of female animals protecting their young: she-bears, lionesses, etc.

Sorry for the many rambles; I'm a sucker for "Amazons" lol
 

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This reminds me a lot about feudal Japan. Not that I'm an expert or anything, but as far as I know, back then weapons were banned. Only the militia could be armed, so the farmers and monks were forced to find other ways to defend themselves. The result was martial arts and using whatever tools they have as weapons. Maybe the women could do something similar? That way they could train all year in secret, right in front of the men. ;)
 
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