The difference between Dark and High fantasy

Caitlin Black · Mar 12, 2010

Thread title says it all, really. What is the difference between Dark and High fantasy?

I feel like I should know the answer to this already, but I don't. Or at least, I think I don't. I've got my head around Urban Fantasy (I think) but at the moment I'm writing what I thought was epic fantasy, but could easily be high or dark. Not urban, because it's not set in an urban setting.

So maybe it would be useful to have a nice list of definitions available... in the end, of course, I could just pitch it as fantasy, but I'd like to know a bit more about the classifications.

Thanks in advance.

WildScribe · Mar 12, 2010

I thought high fantasy and epic fantasy were the same. And dark is just... well, dark. I'm pretty sure you could classify Tolkien as epic dark fantasy.

SPMiller · Mar 12, 2010

- DARK: magic, grey morality, horror elements
- LOW: not much (if any) magic, primary world
- HIGH: magic, black-and-white morality, epic stakes, secondary world
- S&S: magic, amorality, personal stakes
- MYTH: Tolkien

Caitlin Black · Mar 12, 2010

so if I had personal stakes alongside epic stakes, and elements of horror... it would be a High Dark S&S Fantasy??

Caitlin Black · Mar 12, 2010

Actually, I guess the grey morality leans me closer to Dark.

SPMiller · Mar 12, 2010

Cliff Face said:
so if I had personal stakes alongside epic stakes, and elements of horror... it would be a High Dark S&S Fantasy??

You can't have both personal and epic stakes for a single story. It's either one or the other. Only you know which story you're telling, though.

Elements of horror can appear in any of the forms. Have you written scenes with the intent of scaring your readers, or grossing them out? If so, you have horror elements.

Caitlin Black · Mar 12, 2010

But what if there are epic stakes between 2 characters, and personal stakes for the rest?

ETA: And yes, I have horror elements.

Thomas_Anderson · Mar 12, 2010

I believe dark fantasy is where there are no true heroes, as none of the characters are what one would typically think of as "good". The main characters here are often monsters such as vampires, werewolves, or evil witches.

It's hard to give a definition of High Fantasy without mention Lord of the Rings. High fantasy is where it's in a world different from our own, and the plot will affect all the nations of that world. Compare to low fantasy, which is essentially the same thing, except the plot is on a smaller scale (instead of affecting the whole world, it may just affect a town, a family, or even just a single individual).

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 12, 2010

Dark fantasy is mainly defined by the horror elements, such as high character death tolls and monsters, and dark atmosphere.

Epic and high are subtely different. High fantasy tends to be very black and white, while epic is more grey. They both tend toward epic stakes. Think Malazan vs. LOTR.

Caitlin Black · Mar 12, 2010

Thanks all.

GeorgeK · Mar 12, 2010

WildScribe said:
I thought high fantasy and epic fantasy were the same. And dark is just... well, dark. I'm pretty sure you could classify Tolkien as epic dark fantasy.

Not to derail or start some epic debate about Tolkien, but I wouldn't call him dark. All the characters are pretty much all good or thoroughly evil. The only character that I can think of who switched sides is Sauraman and his flip occurs before we ever see the character. The only torturing occurs off the page as a mere mentioning.

Tanydwr · Mar 14, 2010

What's the difference between primary world and secondary world? Is it a case of primary world = our world or mirror image with magic, and secondary world = alternate universe, i.e. different countries/continents/stars/moons, etc.?

Can something still be high fantasy if magic is explicitly forbidden in that country? Because I have that in my quartet (and I did it way before Merlin did!). Or is the active presence of gods (a couple of times) enough? Although one could argue that the fact that magic has to be forbidden makes it work...

No idea what that makes Shattered Ivory though. Imprisonment, torture, faked rape (yes, confusing and unfortunately vital to the plot), war, murder, attempted murder of babies (by his mother no less), neglectful mothers, poisoning, Fae, and frequent references to High King Rhys's sex life (thank the Dragon he got married!). But it has a relatively happy ending. But it's driven by Old Magick and more by politics than a good/evil conflict (the Old Magick is responding to the false king's danger to the land, rather than his morals). S'all very confusing... Probably Sword and Sorcery then...

SPMiller · Mar 14, 2010

Tanydwr said:
What's the difference between primary world and secondary world? Is it a case of primary world = our world or mirror image with magic, and secondary world = alternate universe, i.e. different countries/continents/stars/moons, etc.?

Yeah.

As you have probably guessed, there's some play between the categories. You'd have to pick whichever one fits best. Or just call your work fantasy and ignore subgenres entirely.

If I were to add "epic" to my list of categories, I'd say it's like "high" except grey instead of black-and-white. This is where I'd put, for example, Martin.

Tolkien would be "myth" because he was aiming to create a mythology for England. His mimickers go into "high" because they aren't trying to create myth but rather to mimic him.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 14, 2010

SPMiller said:
- DARK: magic, grey morality, horror elements
- LOW: not much (if any) magic, primary world
- HIGH: magic, black-and-white morality, epic stakes, secondary world
- S&S: magic, amorality, personal stakes
- MYTH: Tolkien

Interesting. I never heard Tolkien placed in its own category.

I've always heard that Epic and High fantasy were the same, and that's where Tolkien fit in.

And Dark fantasy is a sort of weird genre that can fit into either horror, or urban fantasy, depending on the elements. I always thought it was more modern than low, high, heroic, or epic.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 14, 2010

Well, Tolkien had singular goals, but he's usually marketed in stores as high fantasy.

Epic is definitely different than High. I would say shades if grey is definitely one of it's traits, and there's a different focus, sort of, than in High, which is usually a quest to save the world. Epic focuses more on characters with less influence, who are part of a mishmash of opposing factions, as opposed to one hero or group of heroes doing all the work.

Martin and Erikson are epic, whereas Brooks, Goodkind, and Tolkien are High.(see Tolkien caveat above)

There's also Heroic fantasy, as written by Robin Hobb, Scott Lynch, and possibly Rothfuss.

Paul · Mar 14, 2010

wow
liking this thread

MumblingSage · Mar 14, 2010

SPMiller said:
- DARK: magic, grey morality, horror elements
- LOW: not much (if any) magic, primary world
- HIGH: magic, black-and-white morality, epic stakes, secondary world
- S&S: magic, amorality, personal stakes
- MYTH: Tolkien

These are just questions I've got, I don't know if there are any answers:
1. If low fantasy is no (or very little magic) in a primary world (that is, this one), where does the 'fantasy' come in?
2. What if the story takes place in a secondary world, with alternate geography and politics and all that, but had no magic? Any idea what genre this would be?
3. Is Dark Fantasy either secondary or primary world, or both? Can you have Dark Urban Fantasy as well as Dark Sword & Sorcery?

Mr Flibble · Mar 14, 2010

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Epic is definitely different than High. I would say shades if grey is definitely one of it's traits, and there's a different focus, sort of, than in High, which is usually a quest to save the world. Epic focuses more on characters with less influence, who are part of a mishmash of opposing factions, as opposed to one hero or group of heroes doing all the work.

Hmm not the definition I know. High is about the amount of magic / fantastical elements. Epic is about the stakes ( ie THE WORLD WILL END!!!). So one book can be both.

1. If low fantasy is no (or very little magic) in a primary world (that is, this one), where does the 'fantasy' come in?
2. What if the story takes place in a secondary world, with alternate geography and politics and all that, but had no magic? Any idea what genre this would be?
3. Is Dark Fantasy either secondary or primary world, or both? Can you have Dark Urban Fantasy as well as Dark Sword & Sorcery?

1 - could just be one tiny little thing. A woman discovers a goblin living in her garage. The rest of the world is exactly the same, so it's low fantasy. But the goblin ( or whichever speculative element) makes it fantasy, at least nominally

2 - Low fantasy, imo. It doesn't have to be in this world, but tends to be. See GRRM - low fantasy, alternate world.

3 - Either - it's teh horror elements / atmoshpere that make it dark.

Fenika · Mar 14, 2010

2 may also be alternate historical (no fantasy)

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 14, 2010

IdiotsRUs said:
Hmm not the definition I know. High is about the amount of magic / fantastical elements. Epic is about the stakes ( ie THE WORLD WILL END!!!). So one book can be both.

Well, yes, but since we were using a one dimensional array(a list), I was using the terms to descibe where they don't cross over.

SPMiller · Mar 14, 2010

Since when was A Song of Ice and Fire low-magic? I seem to recall dragons, raising people from the dead, young girls bathing in fire, zombies, and summoning shadows.

Mr Flibble · Mar 14, 2010

Hmm well I only read the first. There was a bit of magic ( well, some dragon eggs), but it sure weren't the focus. There's zombies later? 0.0

I was going more by this definition

Low fantasy is characterised by being set in the real ("Primary") world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements. Low fantasy can be described as non-rational events occurring in a rational setting.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 14, 2010

SPMiller said:
Since when was A Song of Ice and Fire low-magic? I seem to recall dragons, raising people from the dead, young girls bathing in fire, zombies, and summoning shadows.

It's got relatively little magic, which is not manipulated by the characters at all, for the most part.

SPMiller · Mar 14, 2010

IdiotsRUs said:
Hmm well I only read the first. There was a bit of magic ( well, some dragon eggs), but it sure weren't the focus. There's zombies later? 0.0

I was going more by this definition

There are zombies in the prolog of the first book, though if you skip most prologs like me, I can see why you'd miss that.

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Well, yes, but since we were using a one dimensional array(a list), I was using the terms to descibe where they don't cross over.

Without geeking out too much, conflating lists and arrays is painful.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 14, 2010

SPMiller said:
There are zombies in the prolog of the first book, though if you skip most prologs like me, I can see why you'd miss that.

Without geeking out too much, conflating lists and arrays is painful.

Well, I didn't want to geek out too much, either. One dimensional array seemed more esoteric than "list", but an array would be perfect for classifying genres by multiple attributes. Perhaps even an array of objects.

The difference between Dark and High fantasy

Wild one

Slave to the Wordcount

Prodigiously Hanged

Wild one

Wild one

Prodigiously Hanged

Wild one

Wild one

ever seeking

Prodigiously Hanged

Court Jester

Inarticulate Herb

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Prodigiously Hanged

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Prodigiously Hanged