the want to write VS the want to be read

Ephrem Rodriguez · Mar 12, 2010

So here's a question.

If you an agent or a publishing company and you have two novels sitting in front of you, which one do you choose to represent/sign and why?

1. This novel has a high concept. It's story almost tells itself based on the title and query/blurb alone. However, the writing is fair. Nothing special here but nothing shouts out that it's necessarily bad either. This novel is what it's expected to be. You will get what you pay for.

2. This novel is subtle. It's a story that is difficult to explain and the demographic is narrow. The target audience is an elite few. However, the writing is excellent. The writers voice is more valuable and interesting than the story and the concept. This novel is not what it is expected to be. It's a hidden gem but one that comes at a much higher price that few are willing to pay. Only the patient will reap a reward. That is, if they ever pick this novel up and give it a read.

I'm new to writing novels but I am, in the short span of a few days of perusing the threads here, beginning to see a trend. I am torn between two directions.

The want to write vs The want to be read

God bless

Libbie · Mar 12, 2010

Because I love books of Type 2, I'd go for that one, providing I already had enough of Type 1 on my list to keep my bills paid.

Here's the thing: Even if you write something that will appeal to a smaller audience, it will still be read, providing it gets published. (I prefer not to call readers of, say, literary fiction "elite." Literary fiction is accessible to anybody who enjoys a more stylistic approach to writing -- there is no elitism required to enjoy it. I enjoy it, and I am far from "elite." I swear like a sailor, have no formal education, and I'm using The Monarch as my avatar.) Being read by a relatively smaller group of people is still being read.

So the real question for you is, do you want to be read by a shit-ton of people? If it's important to you to get the highest sales you can and to be read by the largest number of people, then you'll want to go for something much more commercial. If you don't really care about the number of people who read your work, then you are more free to go in any direction you choose. There is no judgment attached to either option -- both paths are perfectly valid for any writer to choose, as their needs and desires dictate.

In the end, though, your book will be very unlikely to sell if it's not the best damn book you can write. So rather than worrying about a future audience, right now you need to worry about writing something that interests you enough that you'll finish it and make it awesome. That's the cart that you just can't put before the horse.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 12, 2010

The one that I think will make the most money. Based on your descriptions, #1, but I'd have to actually read each to make an informed decision.

gothicangel · Mar 12, 2010

For me it all comes down to story.

I've read some hidden gems in literary and genre fiction; I've also read some drivel in literary and genre fiction.

So it depends on whether the story hooks me.

AdamH · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
So here's a question.

If you an agent or a publishing company and you have two novels sitting in front of you, which one do you choose to represent/sign and why?

1. This novel has a high concept. It's story almost tells itself based on the title and query/blurb alone. However, the writing is fair. Nothing special here but nothing shouts out that it's necessarily bad either. This novel is what it's expected to be. You will get what you pay for.

2. This novel is subtle. It's a story that is difficult to explain and the demographic is narrow. The target audience is an elite few. However, the writing is excellent. The writers voice is more valuable and interesting than the story and the concept. This novel is not what it is expected to be. It's a hidden gem but one that comes at a much higher price that few are willing to pay. Only the patient will reap a reward. That is, if they ever pick this novel up and give it a read.

The want to write vs The want to be read

Good question.

This is almost like asking someone what they're favourite ice cream flavour is (Heavenly Hash!).

If I played the agent and IF those were my only two choices, I'd opt for choice 2 because they are like a fine meal. They make you think about the book long after the end. I wouldn't worry about the limited demographic because if it's good enough, it'll be discovered and find an audience. But I am guilty of enjoying the choice 1 novels as well (your fast food equivalent).

Of course...any agent wants to make the book as marketable as possible. The goal is to earn money.

But what's most important TO ME is writing style. If the language doesn't capture me...no matter if it's #1 or #2...I'm not going to give it the time of day. And, as an agent, I wouldn't choose either.

With all this food talk I think I'm getting hungry. :popcorn:

CaroGirl · Mar 12, 2010

That depends on what type of agency or publisher I work for. Me, I'd work for a literary publisher or an agency that specialized in selling literary-type novels, so I'd be picking #2.

Ephrem Rodriguez · Mar 12, 2010

Libbie said:
Because I love books of Type 2, I'd go for that one, providing I already had enough of Type 1 on my list to keep my bills paid.

Here's the thing: Even if you write something that will appeal to a smaller audience, it will still be read, providing it gets published. (I prefer not to call readers of, say, literary fiction "elite." Literary fiction is accessible to anybody who enjoys a more stylistic approach to writing -- there is no elitism required to enjoy it. I enjoy it, and I am far from "elite." I swear like a sailor, have no formal education, and I'm using The Monarch as my avatar.) Being read by a relatively smaller group of people is still being read.

So the real question for you is, do you want to be read by a shit-ton of people? If it's important to you to get the highest sales you can and to be read by the largest number of people, then you'll want to go for something much more commercial. If you don't really care about the number of people who read your work, then you are more free to go in any direction you choose. There is no judgment attached to either option -- both paths are perfectly valid for any writer to choose, as their needs and desires dictate.

In the end, though, your book will be very unlikely to sell if it's not the best damn book you can write. So rather than worrying about a future audience, right now you need to worry about writing something that interests you enough that you'll finish it and make it awesome. That's the cart that you just can't put before the horse.

Good points. I wasn't trying to paint the smaller demographic as elitists in a negative sense. Like, most people like a simple movie. Just because the movie isn't widely received doesn't mean that the people behind the movie didn't try to make a picture that is widely received.

However, sometimes you just know when you have a really neat movie but not many people are going to watch it. You know, some kind of Jarmusch film about something that you can't really explain. The only people that will like that movie are going to be those that have finer palettes.

The problem I see is that there's a lot of competition in the broader genres but when it comes to the niche stuff, there probably even more competition. I mean, it's your niche vs another ten guys or gals' niche and they are all very very high risk.

And since the niche stuff is probably repped by fewer publishing companies and even fewer agents, you probably burn bridges mucho faster.

This thread isn't about selling out btw. Just trying to see if concept is King.

If a really really well written book is beaten out by a high concept so-so written book nine times out of ten, then maybe I should really start taking a look at higher concepts before I wind up with a dusty half-pound navel gazer.

lucidzfl · Mar 12, 2010

I would say it depends. If it is a debut novel, and I'm an agent, and my mortgage is due (it usually is) I would say, I want the most saleable novel possible. If this is a fourth or fifth book from an established author who has decent sell-through, I'd probably be willing to let them take whatever risk and write to whatever demo they want.

For me, from my perspective, as an aspiring novelist, with no specific niche, I'm going for the most commercially viable product possible.

I may at some point want to write some off the wall book that only 8 people will get. But I'll just save that

Chris P · Mar 12, 2010

I want to read #2 for my own enjoyment, but if it were my paycheck at stake I'd represent #1.

Very often on this board this issue lurks unspoken. Are we writing as an art or as a business? If I write an artful book at 250K words I better be willing to wait a while for it to be represented.

Birol · Mar 12, 2010

As an agent, I'm going for #1 because as a reader, I'm going for #1.

As for this:

The writers voice is more valuable and interesting than the story and the concept. This novel is not what it is expected to be. It's a hidden gem but one that comes at a much higher price that few are willing to pay. Only the patient will reap a reward. That is, if they ever pick this novel up and give it a read.

All that means is that the writer is a an artiste suffering from golden word syndrome who respects readers not at all. S/he would, most likely, be difficult to work with and have more ego than I want to deal with in this lifetime.

What do I care for painted gray mirrors hung on the wall as art? I prefer the portrait of a young woman holding an erotic bauble that was originally meant to advertise her services as a prostitute.

Tell me a story. Touch my soul. Make me laugh. Make me cry. Sure, engage my intellect but entertain me dammit. If I only want my intellect engaged, I'll read up on the history of geometry or Einstein's theory of relativity.

Phaeal · Mar 12, 2010

If I sell enough number ones, I can afford to sell number twos as well. Ditto if I'm a publisher. Ditto if I'm a writer.

Here's the thing, though. Don't assume that all you have to do to write a blockbuster is to come down from your ivory tower. High concept comes no easier than bellybutton-gazing, especially when the writer in question has no real passion for the work.

This whole business is such a tenuous one, you'd better just write what you love. If you can love (or at least like) your high concept, great. If you can't, you'll be putting yourself through hell, and the baby HC will fail to thrive anyhow.

shaldna · Mar 12, 2010

Phaeal said:
This whole business is such a tenuous one, you'd better just write what you love. .

This if possibly the best advice I have read today.

The way I look at it is that if I like something then chances are there are a couple of hundred, or thousand, other people out there who love it too.

DeleyanLee · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
So here's a question.

If you an agent or a publishing company and you have two novels sitting in front of you, which one do you choose to represent/sign and why?

1. This novel has a high concept. It's story almost tells itself based on the title and query/blurb alone. However, the writing is fair. Nothing special here but nothing shouts out that it's necessarily bad either. This novel is what it's expected to be. You will get what you pay for.

2. This novel is subtle. It's a story that is difficult to explain and the demographic is narrow. The target audience is an elite few. However, the writing is excellent. The writers voice is more valuable and interesting than the story and the concept. This novel is not what it is expected to be. It's a hidden gem but one that comes at a much higher price that few are willing to pay. Only the patient will reap a reward. That is, if they ever pick this novel up and give it a read.

If I'm a publisher/agent, it's #1 without a second thought.

#1 will be easier to market for everyone because its audience can be easily identified. It has the potential to be a mega-hit like DaVinci Code or Twilight. It will generally sell better, pay more of my bills and increase my cache in the industry.

Publishing is a business first and foremost. If the book can't increase the bottom line, then no matter how much I adore it, it's not going to get past the committee that decides who gets checks for how much. And on that committee, the Marketing people have a big say. I've known more deals that went sour because Marketing didn't know what to do with it.

There's nothing wrong with those books, mind you. If that's what in your soul to write, that's what you should be writing. Your book could be the one that gives publishers/agents faith in whatever genre again. You can't know--especially if you never write the book to start with.

lucidzfl · Mar 12, 2010

Phaeal said:
This whole business is such a tenuous one, you'd better just write what you love.

Only post in the thread. Lock it, close it, sticky it.

Ephrem Rodriguez · Mar 12, 2010

Birol said:
As an agent, I'm going for #1 because as a reader, I'm going for #1.

As for this:

All that means is that the writer is a an artiste suffering from golden word syndrome who respects readers not at all. S/he would, most likely, be difficult to work with and have more ego than I want to deal with in this lifetime.

What do I care for painted gray mirrors hung on the wall as art? I prefer the portrait of a young woman holding an erotic bauble that was originally meant to advertise her services as a prostitute.

Tell me a story. Touch my soul. Make me laugh. Make me cry. Sure, engage my intellect but entertain me dammit. If I only want my intellect engaged, I'll read up on the history of geometry or Einstein's theory of relativity.

Again, I wasn't trying to say something bad about that particular kind of writer. I mean, in film, they're known as an auteur. They usually break all kinds of rules but going to see one of their films is more about going to see one of THEIR films and less about the story.

Not a bad thing. Think Tarantino and the Coen Brothers.

In fiction, some of my personal favorites are writers that have the ability to become invisible. It's as if the story exists and no one wrote it. On the other hand, there are also some neat writers who, no matter what the story is, are as much a part of the story as the story itself. The writer is totally visible, practically breathing down your neck but for some mysterious reason, you don't mind.

Again, I wasn't trying to say anything bad about either group and find both to have their ups n downs.

I've just been taking a look at the role that concept plays. I was over in Query hell and I realized that it's not very nice of me to have a bad query. The reason why my query is so funky is because my concept is purty low. My agent or publisher certainly won't mind that I have (hypothetically speaking of course) a dynamite book but if they aren't given the means to sell it, I sort of feel like I'm making their job harder.

Just thinking that next go round I am going to put concept and query on the front burner and write the novel against that, making changes as I go. However, if the query wanders into low-concept land then I'll probably use the concept/query as a barometer - keep my work on track.

lucidzfl · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
Again, I wasn't trying to say something bad about that particular kind of writer. I mean, in film, they're known as an auteur. They usually break all kinds of rules but going to see one of their films is more about going to see one of THEIR films and less about the story.

Not a bad thing. Think Tarantino and the Coen Brothers.

In fiction, some of my personal favorites are writers that have the ability to become invisible. It's as if the story exists and no one wrote it. On the other hand, there are also some neat writers who, no matter what the story is, are as much a part of the story as the story itself. The writer is totally visible, practically breathing down your neck but for some mysterious reason, you don't mind.

Again, I wasn't trying to say anything bad about either group and find both to have their ups n downs.

I've just been taking a look at the role that concept plays. I was over in Query hell and I realized that it's not very nice of me to have a bad query. The reason why my query is so funky is because my concept is purty low. My agent or publisher certainly won't mind that I have (hypothetically speaking of course) a dynamite book but if they aren't given the means to sell it, I sort of feel like I'm making their job harder.

Just thinking that next go round I am going to put concept and query on the front burner and write the novel against that, making changes as I go. However, if the query wanders into low-concept land then I'll probably use the concept/query as a barometer - keep my work on track.

Its interesting you bring up the Coens and Tarrantino. You know they didn't start out quirky, and madly brilliant right?

The Coen brothers started out rather mundanely, simply telling interesting stories, ala Raising Arizona, and Miller's Crossing. There wasn't anything particularly over the top about those movies, or crazy filming or shooting. Nicholas Cage was kind of unhinged, and Goodman was awesome, and the movies definitely had a Coen's feel to it, but nothing like Oh Brother, Burn After Reading or A Serious Man.

Similarly, Reservoir dogs, while interesting, and cool for its mishmash of multiple story lines was a great because of the story and really was a fairly straight forward crime movie. His next written movie was True Romance. Very straight forward, but good. It wasn't until Pulp Fiction that he really started being "Autuer" like. And I'm not even talking about all the films he produced or PA'ed on before that.

Point is, I don't see the point in aiming for Auteur before you've really learned the ropes. I know I personally am not setting out to write a masterpiece my first book out. I am writing the stuff I love (See upthread) and hopefully someone else will dig it too.

Ephrem Rodriguez · Mar 12, 2010

lucidzfl said:
Its interesting you bring up the Coens and Tarrantino. You know they didn't start out quirky, and madly brilliant right?

The Coen brothers started out rather mundanely, simply telling interesting stories, ala Raising Arizona, and Miller's Crossing. There wasn't anything particularly over the top about those movies, or crazy filming or shooting. Nicholas Cage was kind of unhinged, and Goodman was awesome, and the movies definitely had a Coen's feel to it, but nothing like Oh Brother, Burn After Reading or A Serious Man.

Similarly, Reservoir dogs, while interesting, and cool for its mishmash of multiple story lines was a great because of the story and really was a fairly straight forward crime movie. His next written movie was True Romance. Very straight forward, but good. It wasn't until Pulp Fiction that he really started being "Autuer" like. And I'm not even talking about all the films he produced or PA'ed on before that.

Point is, I don't see the point in aiming for Auteur before you've really learned the ropes. I know I personally am not setting out to write a masterpiece my first book out. I am writing the stuff I love (See upthread) and hopefully someone else will dig it too.

co-sign

DisobedientWriter · Mar 12, 2010

I can understand why you're trying to decide which path would be the best use of your time but I just can't shake the thinking that you have to go with what you love. Not just in writing, but in anything that you do.

I think if you fake it at all, they know. Readers, agents, everyone.

But to answer your original question, as an agent I'd go for the most saleable one. As a writer, I'd go for the other because that's the kind of writing I usually love.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
A
Not a bad thing. Think Tarantino and the Coen Brothers.

Hate them.

ChaosTitan · Mar 12, 2010

If I'm a powerhouse agent who just closed several major deals and have the time, I may decide to take a chance on #2. Especially if I love the writing.

If I'm a new agent, just building my client list, without any major sales yet to my name, I'd probably bank on #1.

If I'm a commercial imprint at a major house, I'd probably go with #1.

If I'm a small press who's known for publishing quirky, unique books with very small target audiences, I'd probably go with #2.

Doug Johnson · Mar 12, 2010

To me, the only reason to write fiction is because you have this idea and you want to see how it all turns out.

Agents, publishing contracts, movie deals and all that stuff happens if you're lucky, good, and a lot of people share your curiosity.

If you just want to make money writing, you should find a CEO who doesn't have enough time to regularly update his or her blog.

Does that help?

Ephrem Rodriguez · Mar 12, 2010

Doug Johnson said:
To me, the only reason to write fiction is because you have this idea and you want to see how it all turns out.

Agents, publishing contracts, movie deals and all that stuff happens if you're lucky, good, and a lot of people share your curiosity.

If you just want to make money writing, you should find a CEO who doesn't have enough time to regularly update his or her blog.

Does that help?

For me, it's not about money. I love to write regardless of the genre/target audience.

*I should say that I love story even more than writing.

I want work smarter. A lot of times I wind up being too close to something I write and lose objectivity and control. Just trying to hammer a query out is showing this to me. I can't see my work for what it is and that bothers me. I see a clearly defined concept in a query as something that would have been invaluable to me had I written one prior to my work in progress.

I don't like that my story's flab is being revealed by the query more than my ability to just tell the story, outline etc.

The reason the outline and my natural abilities didn't really help me out as much as I had hoped is because I think I need to improve on how I believe "concept" works - how it needs to dictate certain choices etc.

I didn't intend to make this thread about a money vs art. I think the reality of high concept vs low concept relates directly to audience. I mean, how many high-concept stories are there out there that only appeal to small audiences?

And when I say high-concept I'm not just talking about chimpanzee rodeo-clowns turned astronauts. I'm talking about clearly defined concepts that do more to tell the story than not.

Ramble-mode: off

Kosh · Mar 12, 2010

A person writing SOLELY for themselves don't need an agent. They can write whatever they want and just read it to themselves.

I much prefer Stephen King's "Ideal reader"; I want to write something for a "type" of reader, one whose bookcase I can see in my head.

... now if I can just learn to write.

Doug Johnson · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
I want work smarter. A lot of times I wind up being too close to something I write and lose objectivity and control.

You create a world. But - since you're not God - you don't do it perfectly. The answer is beta readers. They tell you what's wrong. Unless, of course, they don't know. Or they're mistaken. Or they have an axe to grind. Or they think something is just not right but they can't put their finger on it. Or they start rewriting. Or they hate your genre. Does that help?

Birol · Mar 12, 2010

Ephrem Rodriguez said:
Not a bad thing. Think Tarantino and the Coen Brothers.

The Tarantino and Coen Brother films I've seen and enjoyed have entertained me. Half the time I couldn't have told you who made them, unless someone told me first. I went because they were good stories. As such, yes, they explored the human condition, but they were also entertaining.

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