Avoiding an info dump when describing a scene

brnitschke · Mar 7, 2010

Info dumps are a very new problem to me, as in I never knew it even WAS a problem until I came here.

So now my question is; how do you avoid an info dump when you describe a new scene?

For instance, I have the following when my character first walks into a room and I want to tell the reader what he sees:

Commander Molokai stood over Tac-Int with his fists on his hips studying a holographic projection of Gallant and the alien hive. Physically Tac-Int consisted of a large stout table embedded into the deck of the bridge, about waist high with adjustable height controls to accommodate both Etruscan and Human users. Its surface was off-white in color, with glossy black panels around the edges. Dimensionally, it was roughly three meters behind the captain’s chair and over two meters long and a meter wide. There were buttons inset into the black panels along the edges, and other small screens for data readouts on the white edges. Embedded in the tabletop surface of Tac-Int were holographic emitters that created the 3D depictions of various tactical situations as well as other geometrically articulated data. It was from this station that the officer in charge of Battlefield Tactics & Intelligence, or BTI as it was known for short, relayed information while orchestrating the Centurion efforts outside the vessel during operations.

I assume this is an info dump? How the hell do I avoid it!

It would be absurd to have the characters talk about these things in dialog and in my opinion that would be WAY worse than having this simple paragraph. I suppose I could omit it entirely, but the table is a pretty important fixture in this scene. I'd like to give the reader some idea of what it is so that people aren't left thinking this is all happening in a white room.

Thanks in advance!

Shinto · Mar 7, 2010

That certainly is an info dump. To be honest, a lot of what you have there needs to be edited out. Why does the reader need to know that Tac-Int is waist high and off-white in color, for example. What does it add to the story, if anything? Stuff like that doesn't need to be in the narrative in the first place. You're going beyond scene setting and delving in minutia.

But to set a scene without resorting to an info dump, one method is to have the character interact with objects in the environment and vice versa. For example:

"Jim grips the leather bound book in his hands."

"Lisa gazes at the sky, her yellow sundress billowing in the wind."

Mr Flibble · Mar 7, 2010

Shinto said:
But to set a scene without resorting to an info dump, one method is to have the character interact with objects in the environment and vice versa. For examples:

"Jim grips the leather bound book in his hands."

"Lisa gazes at the sky, her yellow sundress billowing in the wind. "

This

So your blokey could lean over the table-like Tac-Int, press buttons inset into black panels. Fiddle with the projectors. Talk to the Battlefield Tactics officer on duty yada yada

Instead of just telling us about it, show it in action and let the reader surmise from that what it looks like.

How do your fave authors deal with this? Look to that ( provided they are recently pubbed!)

kposa · Mar 7, 2010

Are all these details essential to the story? "Waist high", "off-white in color", "black panels"? If they're not, it would be safe to exclude them. If they are or if you feel you really need them to give a good sense of the setting, I suggest writing them in with action sequences. Huge paragraphs with nothing but detailed descriptions make my eyes glaze over. But when there's interaction, I can picture the scene better. It's not just in dialog that you can get descriptions into your story.

For example, show both an Etruscan and a Human user adjusting the same item with those height controls. Have a character read the data readouts from the small screens, as his hands grip the glossy black edges of the panels. (Does it really matter that they're glossy? I get black, but I automatically assume that most things in a spaceship are metal and thus glossy.) If those holographic emitters are used in a scene, describe it there, as the characters are using it or looking at it, or fixing it.

Hope this helps.

Jay Jennings · Mar 7, 2010

I'm responding as a reader of fiction, not a writer...

When I see a paragraph like that I know I can skip right to the next one and not miss a thing.

My family wonders how I read some books so fast and it's because I don't care how the waves in the harbor look. I don't care that the wind caresses the face of the wheat field. Blah blah blah. That's not a part of the story I'm interested in. When I see those paragraphs -- and I can see them before I even read them -- I skip them completely.

If there's something important about a control console it's not going to be buried in a block of text. It's going to be pointed out by being used or commented on by one of the characters.

If a character doesn't say something about it, do you need to? (That's meant as a real question, not a snarky-sounding rhetorical question.)

Jay Jennings

Linda Adams · Mar 7, 2010

I wouldn't necessarily count this as an info dump. It depends on your story, and possibly even the viewpoint. If it's omni, something like this actually might be perfectly in line with the viewpoint. One of the benefits of omni is that when information would be tedious or boring to do in context, it can be done like this.

Where I think the issue lies is more in the details you're using and how they're being used. Things like specific height and distances are not really necessary and may even give you continuity headaches later in the story (like where the distance might be contradicted in another scene). Same thing for the color. It doesn't add much other than wordage.

If it were me, I'd start out the scene by hitting a general description of the room for reader orientation. Maybe hit one or two important details that they'll need to know. Then segue in the character looking at the hologram and describe what he sees (that seems be missing in favor of describing the room). I'd focus also what is important in the context of what's happening. I'd also try to make a little less science-like--not everyone's going to even understand what you're talking about with "geometrically articulated data." This blog's on forensics, but gives some good information on conveying technical information. http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/3-common-forensics-fiction-writing-errors/

The most important thing though is that not all details are interesting, so you have to find ones that will be.

ishtar'sgate · Mar 7, 2010

I can see why you'd want to include this description. Although you could probably cut some of it I think IdiotsRUs has the solution. Get the commander to use the machine instead of just describing it.
I was surprised to see Etruscans in your story. So you've resurrected that long dead civilization? Cool.

leahzero · Mar 7, 2010

To add some perspective to this discussion:

All description is not necessarily info-dump. You do not have to strip out every single detail that is not relevant to the plot. To do so would make your prose so raw-boned that it would read like a screenplay, rather than fiction.

However, the example you gave is definitely an info-dump. Details like color, height, material, etc. of the machine in question are neither relevant to the plot (presumably), nor useful to the reader who's building the scene in their mind's eye. Let the reader decide these unimportant details. All you are doing is slowing down the action and disturbing the immersion.

I would suggest cutting this paragraph down to something like this:

Commander Molokai stood over Tac-Int with his fists on his hips, studying a holographic projection of Gallant and the alien hive. Embedded in the tabletop surface of Tac-Int were holographic emitters that created 3D depictions of tactical situations.

(Note: I don't like the cliché "fists on his hips," especially when describing a military personage, but I'll leave that as a style choice. I've also stripped out a few unnecessary adjectives, like "various.")

There. That's all the reader needs to know right now: Tac-Int is a system used to holographically visualize tactical situations. If you truly need to explain how the BTI department uses this system, refer to it later with dialogue or action.

Also, you need to work on sentence length/rhythm and comma usage.

brnitschke · Mar 7, 2010

Thanks guys! Pretty much all the details are probably irrelevant aside from the height adjustments (Etruscans are usually close to twice as tall as humans). So I probably am going way overboard with all that.

IdiotsRUs said:
How do your fave authors deal with this? Look to that ( provided they are recently pubbed!)

Thats the problem here! Most of my favorite authors break every rule about info dumps I've learned from you all. This is probably one reason I've been so fond of them (emulating my favs you see).

Linda Adams said:
Things like specific height and distances are not really necessary and may even give you continuity headaches later in the story (like where the distance might be contradicted in another scene).

I understand what you're saying, but its not likely. I like to create 3d models, and I have the ship, the important set-pieces and the robots all made into CG models to help me visualize and remain consistent when writing my stories.

Linda Adams said:
If it were me, I'd start out the scene by hitting a general description of the room for reader orientation. Maybe hit one or two important details that they'll need to know. Then segue in the character looking at the hologram and describe what he sees (that seems be missing in favor of describing the room). I'd focus also what is important in the context of what's happening. I'd also try to make a little less science-like--not everyone's going to even understand what you're talking about with "geometrically articulated data."

That paragraph is only the first thing the MC character sees when he enters. The Commander is a secondary character, so I didn't want to switch to his perspective. The following pages are all dialog between the Commander and the MC as the two use and interact with Tac-Int - just as you suggest.

As I agreed above, some of the details in the example paragraph are not all that important, I just wanted to describe it for a visual reference point. Its really shocking to me that so many don't desire/appreciate this type of thing. :scared:

But its an easy cut for me since there is plenty in the upcoming scenes that reveals the table's important aspects.

Thanks for supporting the paragraph though!

brnitschke · Mar 7, 2010

ishtar'sgate said:
I was surprised to see Etruscans in your story. So you've resurrected that long dead civilization? Cool.

I'm glad to find another who appreciates ancient history.

I chose the historical Etruscans specifically because of their relationship to the Romans and due to how their past disappears into recorded history. The ones in my story are actually the predecessors responsible for the human Rasenna we are familiar with.

leahzero said:
To add some perspective to this discussion:

All description is not necessarily info-dump. You do not have to strip out every single detail that is not relevant to the plot. To do so would make your prose so raw-boned that it would read like a screenplay, rather than fiction.

However, the example you gave is definitely an info-dump. Details like color, height, material, etc. of the machine in question are neither relevant to the plot (presumably), nor useful to the reader who's building the scene in their mind's eye. Let the reader decide these unimportant details. All you are doing is slowing down the action and disturbing the immersion.

I would suggest cutting this paragraph down to something like this:

(Note: I don't like the cliché "fists on his hips," especially when describing a military personage, but I'll leave that as a style choice. I've also stripped out a few unnecessary adjectives, like "various.")

There. That's all the reader needs to know right now: Tac-Int is a system used to holographically visualize tactical situations. If you truly need to explain how the BTI department uses this system, refer to it later with dialogue or action.

Also, you need to work on sentence length/rhythm and comma usage.

Thanks for the suggestion, it definitely helps! Fists on hips don't really fit how the Commander's character developed either. So its a good point that I need to modify that.

I also appreciate the comment about my sentence structure. Also, I know I get a little sketchy in that department quite often.

kaitie · Mar 7, 2010

Linda Adams said:
I wouldn't necessarily count this as an info dump. It depends on your story, and possibly even the viewpoint. If it's omni, something like this actually might be perfectly in line with the viewpoint. One of the benefits of omni is that when information would be tedious or boring to do in context, it can be done like this.

Where I think the issue lies is more in the details you're using and how they're being used. Things like specific height and distances are not really necessary and may even give you continuity headaches later in the story (like where the distance might be contradicted in another scene). Same thing for the color. It doesn't add much other than wordage.

If it were me, I'd start out the scene by hitting a general description of the room for reader orientation. Maybe hit one or two important details that they'll need to know. Then segue in the character looking at the hologram and describe what he sees (that seems be missing in favor of describing the room). I'd focus also what is important in the context of what's happening. I'd also try to make a little less science-like--not everyone's going to even understand what you're talking about with "geometrically articulated data." This blog's on forensics, but gives some good information on conveying technical information. http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/3-common-forensics-fiction-writing-errors/

The most important thing though is that not all details are interesting, so you have to find ones that will be.

This was my thought as well. I don't mind this sort of thing as much in sci-fi as I would in other genres. I think it's more a matter of editing out the unnecessary detail. You want to give the reader's a basic image, but they don't need nearly this much detail to see what's going on in their mind. For instance, you could manage it with this:

Commander Molokai stood over Tac-Int with his fists on his hips studying a holographic projection of Gallant and the alien hive. Physically Tac-Int consisted of a large stout table embedded into the deck of the bridge with glossy black panels. It was from this station that the officer in charge of Battlefield Tactics & Intelligence, was relaying information while orchestrating the Centurion efforts outside the vessel during operations.

It's still a little telly, but I would tolerate that in a story. Like other people said, you convey bits of setting through other things going on. "The commander pressed one of the black buttons on the table." That sort of thing. That way you're scattering little bits of detail around.

It's really easy to go overboard with detail, but you want to give a bare minimum so that the reader can see what's going on in their imaginations. If you tell me there's a table embedded in the deck with a holographic image, I can see that. It may not be exactly the same as what you see, but that's okay.

The point is just to have enough of an image to set the characters in and understand what's going on.

Linda Adams · Mar 7, 2010

brnitschke said:
As I agreed above, some of the details in the example paragraph are not all that important, I just wanted to describe it for a visual reference point. Its really shocking to me that so many don't desire/appreciate this type of thing.

No surprise at that, actually. Sometime ago, I considered writing a story about my experiences in Desert Storm. I wanted to get the military experience in there, so I had all the acronyms and terminology that come from being in the military. I even spent two pages simply going through the process of us marching off to war, with each command and repetition of command, as it was really done. And I had a guy who had been the army during the Vietnam War who was thrown by the rank acronyms and other jargon. He found the marching scene boring and tedious. It was accurate, but nothing was happening while I was laying out all the details. Good storytelling needs to come first.

third person · Mar 7, 2010

Oh, sodding hell. Another one of these? Very well. This thread might be of some use. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145643

brnitschke · Mar 7, 2010

third person said:
Oh, sodding hell. Another one of these? Very well. This thread might be of some use. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145643

Umm thanks? Didn't you notice I had already inundated that thread with questions?

I thought this...

Basic Writing Questions (7 Viewing)
Basic writing questions for beginners and anyone else. Because the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

...meant it was ok to ask stupid questions here.

kaitie · Mar 7, 2010

Yeah, you're in the right place. And you're also asking for help with specific sections from your work to try to work out how to improve this, so I think you're perfectly okay. We do tend to get a lot of repeat questions, but that's because a lot of people have a problem with the same sorts of things.

ishtar'sgate · Mar 7, 2010

brnitschke said:
As I agreed above, some of the details in the example paragraph are not all that important, I just wanted to describe it for a visual reference point. Its really shocking to me that so many don't desire/appreciate this type of thing.

True, but there are also those who do. Use your own discretion when cutting. Have you every read any of Robert Ludlum's books? (he wrote the Bourne books) He writes about firearms in nauseating detail but look how well he's done. Just saying.

The Lonely One · Mar 7, 2010

I don't think description is inherently evil, or that you have to "leave everything to the reader's imagination." Sparse prose is a style, but not the manifesto for all writers; not by a long shot.

I think a more useful way of approaching this is to view it in terms of pacing and what purpose this specific scene serves to the story. Description inevitably has the effect of slowing things down, which in fiction is like driving a stick-shift. Slow down if you have to but don't stall the story. Once the reader's out it's that much harder to bring them back.

I personally would feel a little inundated by the amount of detail blocked here, but if you wanted to make it a little quicker, that could be fixed by interspersing it more into actions of characters, etc.

Again, I don't think the amount of description is bad on its own, but what I believe people are reacting to is the practically zero pace of the scene at this part. It could be quicker by putting it in motion (with characters, etc.) or trimming or any number of methods.

kaitie · Mar 7, 2010

ishtar'sgate said:
True, but there are also those who do. Use your own discretion when cutting. Have you every read any of Robert Ludlum's books? (he wrote the Bourne books) He writes about firearms in nauseating detail but look how well he's done. Just saying.

I always think of John Grisham. I've never been able to get through one of his books. I make it about a hundred pages and get so bored with the legal stuff that I can't get through it. Man's sold millions of books, though, so clearly lots of people like it.

I think the pacing thing is a good point. Some of it is a matter of personal taste. It becomes a problem when the story is slowed down because of the description or the reader is taken out of the story because of it.

Matera the Mad · Mar 7, 2010

The example is not really an info-dump, it's over-description. Just as bad

brnitschke · Mar 7, 2010

Ugh, now you guys say to think for myself and use my own discression? I hate free will.

How about this?

Commander Molokai leaned over Tac-Int studying a holographic projection of Gallant and the alien hive. This station consisted of a large stout table that had special holographic projectors for rendering all troop tactical data and events. It was from here that ship command orchestrated the Centurion efforts on the celestial battlefield outside the vessel.

I realize it won't please everyone, but I think it says what I really want it to without being wordy.

Although ishtar'sgate brings up a damn good point. I love the type of detail Robert Ludlum goes into. I totally geek out on it. Maybe I need to stop trying to please everyone and go with what I love and focus my writing improvement on grammar, sentence structure, and POV. I of course won't forget pacing mixed in there though. To be fair, aside from a CRAPPY prologue I shared on SYW, nobody's really seen much of this stuff in context of the rest of my work. So... once again I guess I need to figure this out on my own. That is not to say I haven't deeply appreciated all the feedback and I DO think its helped me improve!

Its funny, I've always felt trying to please everyone ends you up with the proverbial equivalent of cafeteria food. Its tolerable to all, but loved by none.

The Lonely One · Mar 7, 2010

Learning to write is, I've found, much like learning to hit a bee's nest with a stick in the dark.

kaitie · Mar 7, 2010

brnitschke said:
Ugh, now you guys say to think for myself and use my own discression? I hate free will.

How about this?

I realize it won't please everyone, but I think it says what I really want it to without being wordy.

Although ishtar'sgate brings up a damn good point. I love the type of detail Robert Ludlum goes into. I totally geek out on it. Maybe I need to stop trying to please everyone and go with what I love and focus my writing improvement on grammar, sentence structure, and POV. I of course won't forget pacing mixed in there though. To be fair, aside from a CRAPPY prologue I shared on SYW, nobody's really seen much of this stuff in context of the rest of my work. So... once again I guess I need to figure this out on my own. That is not to say I haven't deeply appreciated all the feedback and I DO think its helped me improve!

Its funny, I've always felt trying to please everyone ends you up with the proverbial equivalent of cafeteria food. Its tolerable to all, but loved by none.

Yeah, impossible to please everyone. This example is much better, btw.

The Lonely One · Mar 7, 2010

kaitie said:
Yeah, impossible to please everyone.

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type1215.html#aesop

kaitie · Mar 7, 2010

I love that one.

To the OP, think of it this way. By the time you get through this (it's always frustrating at first) you'll be an amazing self-editor.

blacbird · Mar 7, 2010

Physically Tac-Int consisted of a large stout table embedded into the deck of the bridge, about waist high with adjustable height controls to accommodate both Etruscan and Human users. Its surface was off-white in color, with glossy black panels around the edges. Dimensionally, it was roughly three meters behind the captain’s chair and over two meters long and a meter wide. There were buttons inset into the black panels along the edges, and other small screens for data readouts on the white edges. Embedded in the tabletop surface of Tac-Int were holographic emitters that created the 3D depictions of various tactical situations as well as other geometrically articulated data. It was from this station that the officer in charge of Battlefield Tactics & Intelligence, or BTI as it was known for short, relayed information while orchestrating the Centurion efforts outside the vessel during operations.

Step outside yourself as writer, and be the reader. As in: Why do I need to know all this? Especially right now?

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