Multiple Book Deals

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

I'm wondering something. When a writer gets a book deal for, say, two or three books, and especially if the books are not sequels or part of a series, are all the books complete at the time the deal is made? Or, as I'm assuming, the first book is complete and the others are sold based on a few chapters or even just a synopsis?

shaldna · Mar 5, 2010

it depends. some people write all the books then try to sell them, some write the sequel while they are trying to sell the first one and so have a finished book to show thier agent/publisher etc.

however, for most people they don't have a sequel completed when they get a multiple deal.

multiple deals don't mean they will buy the book. it means you are contracted to write one, not that they have to publish it.

OneWriter · Mar 5, 2010

shaldna said:
multiple deals don't mean they will buy the book. it means you are contracted to write one, not that they have to publish it.

Really? But what is the submission package, especially for a debut series: completed first book and then synopsis or outline for the other two? And what happens when you have written the sequel(s), then they go on submission again? But that doesn't make sense, because multiple deals tend to have one additional digit than single ones...

Irysangel · Mar 5, 2010

Depends on what you are selling and what you have sold in the past.

My first book deal: 1 completed novel (book 1 in the series) and a 1-page synopsis for the sequel.

My second book deal: 50 pages and an outline for book 3, and a new book (not in the same series) that was 100% completed.

I'm working on shopping a book in another genre with my agent, and that one has to be 100% completed as well, because I've never been published in that genre. But if I wanted to sell more books in my current genre (which is romance), I just basically need 50 pages and an outline to submit.

Does that make sense?

Amarie · Mar 5, 2010

Hedgetrimmer said:
I'm wondering something. When a writer gets a book deal for, say, two or three books, and especially if the books are not sequels or part of a series, are all the books complete at the time the deal is made? Or, as I'm assuming, the first book is complete and the others are sold based on a few chapters or even just a synopsis?

I'm not sure people get multiple book deals for books that aren't part of series or a sequel, at least not for debut writers. Someone else here might have a better idea about that.

Multiple book deals for series or sequels can work in a variety of ways. Some are based on the author having a complete 2nd book, but many deals are either based on an outline or the first few chapters plus an outline. Many agents will advise their clients not to spend time writing the second book in a series or sequel in case the first doesn't sell, or in case the first sells but the editing changes some of the storyline of the first. I think if you have a sequel idea or series idea in you, I would go ahead and write the first fifty pages and an outline, just in case.

OneWriter · Mar 5, 2010

That makes perfect sense. What I don't understand is the "it doesn't mean they will publish it part".... So, once the book is completed, what is it that will push it to the "publishable" part or not?

YAwriter72 · Mar 5, 2010

shaldna said:
multiple deals don't mean they will buy the book. it means you are contracted to write one, not that they have to publish it.

Not always though. A friend got a three book debut deal. First book was done. They bought book 2 and 3 unwritten, and she wrote them according to the deadlines for release. It was a 3-book deal. They bought all three at once.

A publisher can option for the next books, which means they have right of first refusal, but don't have to buy them.

willietheshakes · Mar 5, 2010

shaldna said:
multiple deals don't mean they will buy the book. it means you are contracted to write one, not that they have to publish it.

This is incorrect.

A multiple book deal (ie, a two-book deal, or a three-book deal) means they have bought the rights to those books (two or three or however many). It's done - bought and paid for.

I think you may have conflated the idea of an option or right of first refusal into your understanding. When a publisher buys one book, they also (usually) have the option to purchase the next book from the writer (there are a whole bunch of permutations to this, but that's the broad strokes). A publisher CAN turn down this option book, and frequently do. But that's a separate issue from a multi-book deal.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

Yeah, I'm beginning to understand a lot better. I raised the question because I have a book out on submission now, and my WIP (10,000 words in) is similar in tone and style. I'm wondering if an offer is made on book one, could my agent negotiate the second book as part of the deal based on what I've already written?

willietheshakes · Mar 5, 2010

Melia said:
I'm not sure people get multiple book deals for books that aren't part of series or a sequel, at least not for debut writers. Someone else here might have a better idea about that.

I did.

Two book deal with Random House.

First book was done (in draft). Second book was a drunken conversation and a 200 word written description.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

willietheshakes said:
This is incorrect.

A multiple book deal (ie, a two-book deal, or a three-book deal) means they have bought the rights to those books (two or three or however many). It's done - bought and paid for.

I think you may have conflated the idea of an option or right of first refusal into your understanding. When a publisher buys one book, they also (usually) have the option to purchase the next book from the writer (there are a whole bunch of permutations to this, but that's the broad strokes). A publisher CAN turn down this option book, and frequently do. But that's a separate issue from a multi-book deal.

That was my understanding as well.

Terie · Mar 5, 2010

willietheshakes said:
This is incorrect.

A multiple book deal (ie, a two-book deal, or a three-book deal) means they have bought the rights to those books (two or three or however many). It's done - bought and paid for.

I think you may have conflated the idea of an option or right of first refusal into your understanding. When a publisher buys one book, they also (usually) have the option to purchase the next book from the writer (there are a whole bunch of permutations to this, but that's the broad strokes). A publisher CAN turn down this option book, and frequently do. But that's a separate issue from a multi-book deal.

I know someone who got a three-book contract on her debut outing. Only one book was written, and it was a one-off (that is, it wasn't a three-book series).

The publisher didn't like some aspects of the second book (and, having read the manuscript, I agree with them) and asked for changes she refused to make. Last I heard, writer and publisher were at a stand-off. She wouldn't make changes they asked for, and they wouldn't publish as it was; plus there was the contract for the third book.

She hasn't had anything published since the first book because her next two books are contracted to that publisher, and she won't give them publishable material.

(In case anyone is wondering, yes, I think she's bonkers to behave this way!)

shaldna · Mar 5, 2010

willietheshakes said:
This is incorrect.

A multiple book deal (ie, a two-book deal, or a three-book deal) means they have bought the rights to those books (two or three or however many). It's done - bought and paid for.
.

I understand what you are saying, but at the end of the day, if they buy the second book based on your first, and teh second turns out to be rubbish, even after rewrites, they still don't have to publish it. They might have paid for it, you might have been contracted for it, but it still doesn't mean it will ever see print.

willietheshakes · Mar 5, 2010

shaldna said:
I understand what you are saying, but at the end of the day, if they buy the second book based on your first, and teh second turns out to be rubbish, even after rewrites, they still don't have to publish it. They might have paid for it, you might have been contracted for it, but it still doesn't mean it will ever see print.

That's very true (though very odd). It's also true of a one-book deal, if you want to press matters: just because they've bought it doesn't mean they're going to print it.

This situation, though, occurs very, very rarely.

shaldna · Mar 5, 2010

Terie said:
I know someone who got a three-book contract on her debut outing. Only one book was written, and it was a one-off (that is, it wasn't a three-book series).

The publisher didn't like some aspects of the second book (and, having read the manuscript, I agree with them) and asked for changes she refused to make. Last I heard, writer and publisher were at a stand-off. She wouldn't make changes they asked for, and they wouldn't publish as it was; plus there was the contract for the third book.

She hasn't had anything published since the first book because her next two books are contracted to that publisher, and she won't give them publishable material.

(In case anyone is wondering, yes, I think she's bonkers to behave this way!)

tjhis is the sort of situation I was trying explain.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

Thanks everyone for giving input. I have one other question. My book out on sub is MG. I have a completed YA novel, but it's drastically different than my MG stuff. My agent and I have decided to hold off trying to do anything with that for now. When he asked what else I had, I mentioned my WIP (also MG) but I didn't tell him what it was about.

Would it be best to go ahead and send him the first chapter just so he'll have a better idea where we are in case an offer does come our way? Or should I wait until an offer is made before thinking about selling the second book?

willietheshakes · Mar 5, 2010

shaldna said:
tjhis is the sort of situation I was trying explain.

And the sort of situation I was saying happens very, very rarely.

YAwriter72 · Mar 5, 2010

Hedgetrimmer said:
Yeah, I'm beginning to understand a lot better. I raised the question because I have a book out on submission now, and my WIP (10,000 words in) is similar in tone and style. I'm wondering if an offer is made on book one, could my agent negotiate the second book as part of the deal based on what I've already written?

Probably! A few AW'ers sold in 2 book deals that were not series.

My old agent had said that most editors assume continuity and figure they are buying more than one book.

Terie · Mar 5, 2010

willietheshakes said:
And the sort of situation I was saying happens very, very rarely.

I suspect that it happens more often than 'very, very rarely'. I've heard editors talk about it at almost every conference I've ever been to, plus I personally know someone in that situation. I would say 'rarely', but I wouldn't modify it beyond that.

Amarie · Mar 5, 2010

Hedgetrimmer said:
Thanks everyone for giving input. I have one other question. My book out on sub is MG. I have a completed YA novel, but it's drastically different than my MG stuff. My agent and I have decided to hold off trying to do anything with that for now. When he asked what else I had, I mentioned my WIP (also MG) but I didn't tell him what it was about.

Would it be best to go ahead and send him the first chapter just so he'll have a better idea where we are in case an offer does come our way? Or should I wait until an offer is made before thinking about selling the second book?

I would send it to him to see what he thinks of it overall, not just for the slim possibility of an offer on a second unrelated book coming with the first. It's good it's MG because you and a future publisher are going to want to develop your career and name recognition in one genre before expanding into others.

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

Melia said:
I would send it to him to see what he thinks of it overall, not just for the slim possibility of an offer on a second unrelated book coming with the first. It's good it's MG because you and a future publisher are going to want to develop your career and name recognition in one genre before expanding into others.

That's what I was thinking. Also, my YA stuff is darker and heavier. I'm hoping to capture a group of readers with my MG material and then, by the time they're teens, hopefully they'll still be interested in my work and check out my YA offerings.

suki · Mar 5, 2010

Hedgetrimmer said:
Thanks everyone for giving input. I have one other question. My book out on sub is MG. I have a completed YA novel, but it's drastically different than my MG stuff. My agent and I have decided to hold off trying to do anything with that for now. When he asked what else I had, I mentioned my WIP (also MG) but I didn't tell him what it was about.

Would it be best to go ahead and send him the first chapter just so he'll have a better idea where we are in case an offer does come our way? Or should I wait until an offer is made before thinking about selling the second book?

You've had a good diversity of opinion on the questions raised, but I wanted to add one more thought - Talk to your agent.

All of these questions could be talked about with your agent, and get his particular take on them as well. And there is no problem about raising questions and discussions with your agent. I think sometimes when we are new clients, we worry about bothering the agent or looking silly. But I think we need to remember that they know we are new clients and unpublished and they should be very willing to answer our questions.

Don't be a nuisance - ie, calling or emailing every otehr day with what if questions - but there is no problem with occasionally sending emails with questions or scheduling a time to talk by phone to talk through some questions.

Personally, I've heard pros and cons for multi book deals. Mostly dealing with risk assessment - ie, what if you first book's a big hit, wouldn't it be better to shop your next book to the highest bidder, versus what if your first book flops, will anyone be interested in you second or would it be better to have it locked in? And what if the very cool editor you sold to leaves the publisher but you're locked in for three books... etc.

And all the discussion is intersting, but I also think you should discuss these issues with your agent.

If your agent is experienced and reputable, he'll have his own experiences and thoughts to draw on. So, ask him when he'd like to see sample chapters from your work in progress. Ask him about the possibilities, and pros and cons, of multi book deals.

~suki

Hedgetrimmer · Mar 5, 2010

suki said:
You've had a good diversity of opinion on the questions raised, but I wanted to add one more thought - Talk to your agent.

All of these questions could be talked about with your agent, and get his particular take on them as well. And there is no problem about raising questions and discussions with your agent. I think sometimes when we are new clients, we worry about bothering the agent or looking silly. But I think we need to remember that they know we are new clients and unpublished and they should be very willing to answer our questions.

Don't be a nuisance - ie, calling or emailing every otehr day with what if questions - but there is no problem with occasionally sending emails with questions or scheduling a time to talk by phone to talk through some questions.

Personally, I've heard pros and cons for multi book deals. Mostly dealing with risk assessment - ie, what if you first book's a big hit, wouldn't it be better to shop your next book to the highest bidder, versus what if your first book flops, will anyone be interested in you second or would it be better to have it locked in? And what if the very cool editor you sold to leaves the publisher but you're locked in for three books... etc.

And all the discussion is intersting, but I also think you should discuss these issues with your agent.

If your agent is experienced and reputable, he'll have his own experiences and thoughts to draw on. So, ask him when he'd like to see sample chapters from your work in progress. Ask him about the possibilities, and pros and cons, of multi book deals.

~suki

Excellent advice, Suki. And you're spot on with your assessment. Because I'm new, there is a part of me that doesn't want to seem too pushy or greedy or blinded by unrealistic expectations. But he's been very responsive in all my other concerns. So, yeah, I'll run all this by him and see what he feels is the best course to take.

willietheshakes · Mar 5, 2010

Terie said:
I suspect that it happens more often than 'very, very rarely'. I've heard editors talk about it at almost every conference I've ever been to, plus I personally know someone in that situation. I would say 'rarely', but I wouldn't modify it beyond that.

See, I would turn that around -- editors talk about it because it happens so rarely: it's news when it does.

Modified or not, however, I think that generally speaking, selling multiple books means multiple books will be published, assuming they are of publishable quality. Certainly there are intervening factors which may interfere with this, but there's a signed contract for publication: that's -- generally speaking -- a pretty good indication that the books will be published.

Namatu · Mar 5, 2010

Irysangel said:
My second book deal: 50 pages and an outline for book 3

The 50 pages I could do. The outline would be a nightmare likely to turn me into a jibbering mess. Predict the future? Crazy. (I understand why they'd want it.)

willietheshakes said:
See, I would turn that around -- editors talk about it because it happens so rarely: it's news when it does.

My guess is it happens more often than "rarely" but less than "often."

Multiple Book Deals

What happened, just there?

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Ubi dubium ibi libertas

She of Many Names

carpe libri

Ubi dubium ibi libertas

someone let me off this crazy ride

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

What happened, just there?

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

What happened, just there?

Writer is as Writer does

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

What happened, just there?

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

someone let me off this crazy ride

Writer is as Writer does

carpe libri

What happened, just there?

Opinionated

What happened, just there?

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Lost in mental space.