Evidence for God

ChristineR said:

I'm quoting Canotila here, but I don't her to feel like I'm singling her out. This is for anyone who has said they have this sort of evidence for God.

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No worries, and I'm glad you brought this up. To clarify a bit further, I don't have faith that God exists because of my experiences. I had that before any sort of evidence presented itself to me. I started out with faith, and that faith has grown into a knowledge. But not as a result of what happened. What happened is just confirmation for me, that I can't deny.

ChristineR said:

What would you say to people who have had major prayers ignored? Who needed a miracle, and who didn't get one? What about the vast majority of dead people who were not revived? What do you say to their families?

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God's answer to prayer isn't always yes. It doesn't always come in the time frame we would like it to. Just like parents say no to their children, he says no to us if what we're asking for isn't in our best long term interest. None of us are going to live forever, I'm going to die some day even if it did get delayed.

I've had thousands of prayers where I didn't get the answer I wanted to hear. In the long run, it has worked out for much better for me that I didn't get what I was asking for. Some times it's a matter of knowing what to ask. When someone passes, some times it is better to ask for comfort and peace. While it hurts, the time we spend apart from our loved ones when they pass is literally a blink of an eye compared to the rest of eternity.

For what it's worth, medical intervention had no bearing on me coming back. I was flat lined and efforts to resuscitate abandoned. By all rights I shouldn't be able to put together a coherent sentence, but here I am typing away.

ChristineR said:

The clincher for me is that when you look at people as a group, there's no evidence that people who pray are more likely to get a medical miracle than anyone else. The doctors sometimes pull it off, but they don't pull it off any more often with religious people than with the rest of us. What you end up with is a small group of people who were extremely lucky and who now believe in God, a larger group of people who then become atheist, and the largest group who rationalizes the lack of miracles as being part of God's plan, or something like that.

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That's the thing I was saying earlier though. God won't allow evidence of his existence to build, because it runs contrary to his plan. If everybody knows he exists and we're accountable for our actions because the giant glowing face of God beams down at us from the clouds daily, we're not going to have the chance to experience the same growth as we do on our own.

knight_tour said:

As far as 'worship' goes, I see it as a purely human failing. The very concept of it is about being so in need of demonstrating being 'above' someone that you require them to prove it to you. A human king or queen can demand such a silly thing, because they have the weaknesses of human fear and selfishness that require others to show obeisance to them. If a god or gods did exist, then there are only two possibilities as far as I see it. One is that the gods are decent and not full of human frailties, in which case they would of course not need any such thing as worship. Or, they could be weak, selfish beings and actually demand worship, in which case there would be no need to worship them, because they would not be worthy of it. In other words, there is never a need to worship any being. Just live life the best you can.

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I see my relationship with God as more of a parent/child relationship. The whole point of being born and living a mortal life is to experience good and bad, joy and sadness, and learn how to make decisions without the direct influence of our heavenly parents. I believe that God wants us all to grow to our fullest potential, and come back to live with him when we're done because he loves us and likes having us around. He provides guidelines on how to live the best life you can, for people that want them. To me he is more of a parent/guide/mentor than an overlord. Worshipping him, to me, is more about learning to trust. And for me that has been a rewarding experience.

Shadow_Ferret said:

So... if it was proved that God DID exist, you'd stop believing?

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It's not the existence thingy, it's any accompanying rules/ hassle.

Let Him off, if He exists, that's ok
If not, what's the difference?

Course you will have those with a whole plethora of 'differences' but that's just they're own version(s)

One of things that I mentioned as being credible evidence for God would be, in fact, answers to prayers. Personally, I've never heard of anyone getting their prayers answered. I've heard of people getting things they prayed for, but not actual answers--"Yes, no, maybe." It's all well and good to tell a person whose life is falling apart and who has prayed for help that it's part of God's plan, but it doesn't always work out in the end. The problem I have with it is that it's meaningless. If you get something, the answer was yes. If you don't get it, the answer was no. How is this different from God not existing?

It may have been all part of God's plan to have someone's life be completely destroyed and end in a suicide--but how would you know?

Really, all I want is for there to be something concrete, something that doesn't come down to how people interpret something.

ChristineR said:

Really, all I want is for there to be something concrete, something that doesn't come down to how people interpret something.

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By definition there can be no such thing.
If there was indisputable proof of the existence of God, just consider what that would actually mean. Think about it for a moment.

See?


Ipso facto (latin, meaning 'I'm bluffin') there cannot be proof of God's existence.

Paul said:

By definition there can be no such thing.
If there was indisputable proof of the existence of God, just consider what that would actually mean. Think about it for a moment.

See?


Ipso facto (latin, meaning 'I'm bluffin') there cannot be proof of God's existence.

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I'm missing your logic. Indisputable proof of God is proof of God.

To me, if there cannot be proof, that means he doesn't exist.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I'm missing your logic. Indisputable proof of God is proof of God.

To me, if there cannot be proof, that means he doesn't exist.

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Well, it certainly means His existence can't be proven.



My previous statements he exists therefore he doesn't were really just goofing around, but the last two are real comments.

However the question 'does God exists' is completely pointless and meaningless, as one first has to define the God one's referring to and what such an existence might mean. that's the question required before the question 'does God exist' question

All we deal with are our own constructions.

I assumed we were talking about the Judeo-Christian God.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I assumed we were talking about the Judeo-Christian God.

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Well even they're two different Gods
But assuming it's say the Jewish God, the same still holds - unprovable and always will be - as the non-provability is inherent in the definition of God
because if it could be proven without contest, well ....

Paul said:

By definition there can be no such thing.
If there was indisputable proof of the existence of God, just consider what that would actually mean. Think about it for a moment.

See?


Ipso facto (latin, meaning 'I'm bluffin') there cannot be proof of God's existence.

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No, I don't see. I actually have thought quite a lot about what it would be like to live in a world where there was indisputable proof of God's existence. I really don't see it causing God's head to explode. In fact, I don't see any compelling theological argument why there shouldn't be proof of God, unless you want to argue that God sees some benefit in misleading people.

For example, God only wants 20% of the world to go to heaven, and wants the last 80% to burn in hell. So He provides the correct amount of proof to convince the most gullible 20%, and rewards them with heaven. This might be possible, but it doesn't make God look real good.

the God thing is a bit like the 'meaning of life' thing
If we found thee meaning of life and it was
'to build a wooden hut near a river'
then that's what everyone would do.
then what?
The meaning of life is to accept that there is no meaning. - it's the need for 'certainty' which is the prob. esp as 'certainty' does not exist.

ChristineR said:

No, I don't see. I actually have thought quite a lot about what it would be like to live in a world where there was indisputable proof of God's existence. I really don't see it causing God's head to explode. In fact, I don't see any compelling theological argument why there shouldn't be proof of God, unless you want to argue that God sees some benefit in misleading people.

For example, God only wants 20% of the world to go to heaven, and wants the last 80% to burn in hell. So He provides the correct amount of proof to convince the most gullible 20%, and rewards them with heaven. This might be possible, but it doesn't make God look real good.

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If God were to exist without doubt, then an absolute definition of God would be required and a set of rules of engagement (worship, rules etc). Now everyone has the same God, with the same definition, the same 'set of rules'. So now your given the choice whether to break the rules or not - except you won't cos you know for a certainty that God exists and breaking the rules displeases him. ergo (bluff) God can never be accepted universally as an indisputable absolute.

It's the doubt that give the God thing its power, without that there could be no God.

Sorry Paul, you lost me right where you said "bluff." Presumably after we all wake in hell, God will be universally accepted as an indisputable absolute. Therefore, if and when human life becomes extinct, then God will be universally accepted as indisputable absolute.

ChristineR said:

Sorry Paul, you lost me right where you said "bluff." Presumably after we all wake in hell, God will be universally accepted as an indisputable absolute. Therefore, if and when human life becomes extinct, then God will be universally accepted as indisputable absolute.

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sorry, my 'bluff' comment was a joke i.e. I'm quoting Latin, but doen't take that too seriously kinda thing

As for the hell thing, that'd be a pretty good definition of hell...

My emphasis ...

benbradley said:

As I believe now, I can't imagine anything that could convince me that God exists. I'd much more likely believe someone had done a slight-of-hand or other trick, or slipped me a psychoactive drug, than believe claims than an incident I'd seen or experienced myself was a God-induced miracle.

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That's valid; except doesn't it also (imo) suggest that you've set aside the "right" or basic intellectual starting point of ASKING for evidence OF God (since you disallow all possible evidence) ?

If "no evidence is possible of God" ... then no lack of evidence could inform or justify your non-acceptance of God, either?

I think that many or most believers claim faith, and so don't need evidence. Some may consider looking for evidence to show a lack of faith, or even be blasphemous.

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Christian scripture (at least) specifically offers that position: Jesus quotes scripture to the devil that one shouldn't "test" God (the devil had suggested Jesus throw himself off a skyscraper, so angels could catch his fall) ... and Jesus tells Thomas that though he has placed his own hands inside the Resurrected Christ's wounds ... blessed are those who believe WITHOUT having the same gory evidence.

Whether other religions' scriptures ask more than "faith" is a more complex issue, I suppose.

Knight Tour writes:

I can't imagine any evidence that could convince me that a god exists. Even if a being materialized in front of me and was clearly powerful beyond all belief, and even if that being said straight out that it was GOD ALMIGHTY, I still have no reason to believe it. As far as I am concerned it would just be an example of a far advanced form of life that exists in the universe.

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Again, a valid point. But again, totally denying the POSSIBILITY of "evidence" -- setting ASIDE the tool of "evidence" ... and thus (just imo) removing the rational justification for DENYING God/gods' existence.

Rejecting the possibility of "evidence" then your "faith" is that God doesn't exist, another's "faith" is that God exists.
It's not even two sides of the same coin ... it's the SAME side of the same coin.

Happy for us all, the coin is EXISTENCE.

I view this the same way that I view the word 'supernatural'. In my opinion the word 'supernatural' should not exist.

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Oddly, that's always been my position too: nothing is 'supernatural' ... it either exists or it does not exist. If it exists, it is natural (though God can be 'natural' and still be Transcendent of material "Nature" ... Nature's CREATOR can imo still be untouchable and undefined by Creation, being either apart from it or beyond it.

If something can happen, no matter how mindboggling it might be to us, it is natural. The same with the idea of 'gods'. If a being exists, then it is a being, no different from any of the beings here on earth other than in its characteristics. So, I don't believe in the concept of 'gods', just in 'beings'.

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Well, but there may be a tar pit of semantics there, distinguishing between mere words of "beings" versus "gods" -- Human language simply calls a being an arbitrary word, doesn't it?
"What sort of being do we mean? A human being?" one asks
"No ... a 'god' being." comes the answer.
Definitions elude us, of course, but some distinction is being explored and shaped there, right?

Add to that the issue that in Hinduism, aren't gods spoken of as being either "BOTH, or BEYOND, existence and non-existence" ??? So if we're discussing GODS, "NON-existence" has a bearing on them that it doesn't have if we're discussing material objects in material mundane nature.

PS ... For those who insist there is NO material evidence that God exists ...
Some would counter that ALL EXISTENCE is evidence of God. The fact that we are humans annoyed that we can or cannot find "evidence" is enough proof ... because we are HERE, being annoyed.

In that viewpoint, the dilemma of distinguishing "evidence OF God" from what isn't ... isn't that nothing IS "evidence" but that EVERYTHING is evidence. There is nothing that can be determined as NOT being evidence of God to compare the evidence of God TO.

Merely saying "This can be explained NATURALLY" is pointlessly forgetting that the answer only works if we can determine where NATURE comes from separate from Nature coming from GOD.

Some are misled (possibly) by expecting GOD to always operate via MIRACLES that distort "natural law" ... when reasonably it could be suggested that God is BEING Godly when God lets the Universe run according to God's CHOSEN laws of the Nature God created.

Space/Time in all its glory is "miracle" and "mindblowing" enough to be Divine. That WE are here, even here to be unimpressed by that glory ... well, perhaps every Creation disappoints its Creator.

Where's my evidence of God? You just read it, maybe. YOU. Reading. It. Surrounded by a Universe of unimaginable WONDERS.

small axe said:

Whether other religions' scriptures ask more than "faith" is a more complex issue, I suppose.

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I'd just like to point out that not all religions are faith-based or have revealed scripture, yet are still religions.

Many of these discussions tend to default the Christian god--for understandable reasons--but thinking that all religions/beliefs aret based in the same tenets or structure can be part of the common misunderstandings and repeated arguments.

That WE are here, even here to be unimpressed by that glory ... well, perhaps every Creation disappoints its Creator.

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Have you watched the atheist tapes? They're available through netflix, and I'm sure a few other sources. There was a Christian professor on there who had that same mind set. For me, that astonishment doesn't go away if there is no Creator, and might even increase its intensity.


AMC

ChristineR said:

Sorry Paul, you lost me right where you said "bluff." Presumably after we all wake in hell, God will be universally accepted as an indisputable absolute. Therefore, if and when human life becomes extinct, then God will be universally accepted as indisputable absolute.

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Couldn't it have been heaven?

AMCrenshaw said:

Couldn't it have been heaven?

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Good point--there are gods who forgive us unbelievers. But we were talking about having faith in God despite the lack of evidence, which sort of implies the conservative worldview that God rewards the faithful and punishes those of us who make our choices based on the evidence.

ChristineR said:

What would you say to people who have had major prayers ignored? Who needed a miracle, and who didn't get one? What about the vast majority of dead people who were not revived? What do you say to their families?

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Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying every time I pray for healing, it happens. I've prayed for months that someone would get better, but they didn't. I've lost someone so quickly I never got the news that they were hurt - just that they were gone. I've seen a couple miraculous yes's, but I've gotten some devastating no's, and I do not understand why each answer came out as it did. In some instances, I have seen good come from the situation, and others, I still don't get it at all. I know I pray to a God who's experienced hurt and loss too. I know that if I had not prayed through these incidents, I would not have made it through them.

It might sound cheesy to some people for me to say, "God's in control" or "He's got a plan," but the opposite is to expect my head to wrap around the thoughts of Someone who sees things in view of eternity. I may understand many things, but understanding everything is not going to happen this side of heaven.

To someone who's prayed and prayed and not seen the miracle he/she asked for, I can honestly say, "I'm sorry, I know that it hurts," and if I felt it was appropriate to ask, I would say, "Can I pray for you?"

ChristineR said:

What would you say to people who have had major prayers ignored? Who needed a miracle, and who didn't get one? What about the vast majority of dead people who were not revived? What do you say to their families?
.

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ChristineR said:

One of things that I mentioned as being credible evidence for God would be, in fact, answers to prayers. .

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The problem is regarding God as a sort of Santa Claus who is supposed to do what we want. All major religions teach that it's not about getting what we want. In Christianity it's The Will be Done, in Islam Inshallah, in Hinduism it's surrender, in Buddhism it's the giving up of desire.

"God didn't answer my prayer" is like a child who didn't get the candy!
Prayers for greater strength, for understanding, for more love, more compassion -- that sort of prayer is always answered. It's all about our growth. Not about changing circumstacnes.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I'm missing your logic. Indisputable proof of God is proof of God.

To me, if there cannot be proof, that means he doesn't exist.

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So a thing only exists after it has been proven to exist? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? All the discoveries of science: they didn't exist before science proved their existence?

PS ... For those who insist there is NO material evidence that God exists ...
Some would counter that ALL EXISTENCE is evidence of God. .......snip.......

Merely saying "This can be explained NATURALLY" is pointlessly forgetting that the answer only works if we can determine where NATURE comes from separate from Nature coming from GOD.

.

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This is my point of view too. All of nature is a miracle. Look at the human body, look at the way everything in nature interacts with everything else, the co-dependency of all things in existence.... for my it is more incredible that that should have come about randomly, than that a greater unifying Intelligence -- which I call God for want of a better name -- is behind it.

And by the way, that god I didn't believe in as an atheist -- I still don't believe in him -- he's nothing but a straw man.

We humans think we're so clever, clever enough to know the last secrets of the universe, God, etc. We're not! It's like an ant, or an amoeba, trying to figure out how humans work.
Or like the characters in our novels trying to prove the existence of us, the authors -- if there IS a God, it just can't be fathomed by our puny minds.

But I cant believe that I've AGAIN been drawn into a by definition silly "does god exist" thread!

benbradley said:

As I believe now, I can't imagine anything that could convince me that God exists. I'd much more likely believe someone had done a slight-of-hand or other trick, or slipped me a psychoactive drug, than believe claims than an incident I'd seen or experienced myself was a God-induced miracle.

I think that many or most believers claim faith, and so don't need evidence. Some may consider looking for evidence to show a lack of faith, or even be blasphemous.

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Atheism has the characteristics of a religion, as Ben shows here. He won't believe his eyes, even if presented with evidence that contradicts his deeply held beliefs.

Julie Worth said:

Atheism has the characteristics of a religion, as Ben shows here. He won't believe his eyes, even if presented with evidence that contradicts his deeply held beliefs.

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His god is a strawman.

aruna said:

His god is a strawman.

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Strawperson


Anyone remember Ben Stiller pleading in Zoolander after his father's cutting comment to him that he was 'a Mermaid'?

Merman! papa, Merman!


one of the funniest lines ever written.

RainyDayNinja said:

For the sake of illustration, I have two friends that have told me of personally experiencing miraculous healings, which they were able to see happening directly, after being prayed over. While I didn't see either of these events with my own eyes, I have no independent reason for doubting their truthfulness, and they both mentioned multiple witnesses present.

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I know what you mean.

I've had friends who have been to faith healings and have been convinced they have seen miracles with their own eyes. In one example, they were both convinced that the fillings in their teeth had been changed to gold.

I have no idea why they believe it, but they both believe it was a miracle that they saw with their own eyes after prayer - and they say many other witnesses saw it.

Many witnesses have seen people healed at Benny Hinn's ministries too. However, when people have followed up on the healings it seems that the blind are still blind (despite being 'healed' in front of witnesses) the people needing kidney transplants are still on dialysis (despite being 'healed' in front of witnesses) etc.

So clearly, people being 'healed' in front of witnesses is actually hopelessly poor evidence.

So for the "non-Benny-Hinn-believers": What would you accept as evidence for the healing power of Benny Hinn? Does the accounts of the people who 'witnessed' the healing count? If not, why not?

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To answer your question. A faith healing that heals something that might have got better by itself isn't impressive.

If an amputee's limb was to grow back after prayer then I would be impressed. That is trivial for an omnipotent God - and certainly doesn't even get close to some of the miracles that have have been claimed to happen in the past.

Mac