Rhythm - a discussion

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2010

So in the spirit of the Novels suggestion box and aadams' thread on openers, I thought a discussion might be useful. On rhythm.

First a few linkies

An editor speaks ( note I'm biased cos she was my editor at Samhain and she rocked Hi Deb!

)

A resources for writers article.

A discussion and writing exercise for rhythm

Is rhythm important to you as a reader? As a writer? For me, rhythm is very important, firstly as a reader. I hear the words in my head as I read. If it hasn't got rhythm, it gets put down real quick - one of my major turn offs is a piece that lacks it.

In that first link you can see my comment - when I write, I 'hear' someone reading it aloud. Usually Ian MacKellan for my epic fantasy ( I mean, the way he said 'And I smote his ruin upon the mountainside' *shivers*) As I write, he's saying the words, and the sentence alters if I find it's awkward for him to say it, or a different structure would allow the meaning to become more rhythmically pleasing ( yes, I am fully aware of how weird this is). Different genres see different actors narrate in my head. I'll use an adverb over leaving it out if it adds to rhythm. So sue me.

So, how do we create rhythm? So, just for startes, there's the obvious - as mentioned in the links above. Punctuation, inserting a pause to get the beat right. Is this the only way to create a rhythm. Of course not. There's lots of other ways, but just for now I'm concentrating on one.

Much has been said about the use of the word said ( u c what I did thar?) For me it has two uses ( and I like to combine them when I can) - one, there's several people talking and we need to distinguish who's saying what. Two - yes, you got it, rhythm

Consider this sentence.

'The time has come to talk of many things...'

Meh

So try it this way:

'The time has come,' the walrus said, 'to talk of many things:..'

In rhythm, the judiciously inserted tag can make or break a sentence, rhythmically speaking.

So, the discussion

How important do you think rhythm is?
How do you achieve it?

Wayne K · Feb 21, 2010

I've got this

Ken · Feb 21, 2010

... before you can even hear the rhythm in a chunk of prose all the clutter or verbage has got to be eliminated. Otherwise it's like trying to listen to an orchestra with a couple in the seats in front of you yapping away and a guy on your left sneezing up a storm and .... Well you get the general idea ;-)

Rhythm isn't essential. Some novels don't got a dime's worth. But those that do, seem to read themselves to you, if you know what I mean.

Lady Ice · Feb 21, 2010

Rhythm's very important- not just in a sentence, but over the whole book. Having all your scenes fast-paced is just as boring as having them all slow-paced.

But that second sentence slows down the rhythm a lot; it depends on what effect you want.

Ways to create rhythm...this is probably bad but I like to take an ordinary sentence and see how I can change the meaning and atmosphere without changing the basic idea:

'This toast is soggy- indeed, so soggy that I fear it has drowned.'
'This. Toast. Is. Soggy' (grammatically horrific lol)
'What's up with the toast? It's soggy!'
He picked up the toast. 'Soggy'
'You've given me soggy toast, you (insert insult)'
'This toast is soggy, very soggy...'

And so on.

Bookewyrme · Feb 21, 2010

Well, I don't have a huge amount to add, but I'll poke my nose in since no one else has yet.

I think rhythm is important, particularly in how it relates to sentence structure, because that's how you get the "atmosphere" of a scene. Currently, I'm still learning, so what rhythm my stories have is kind of unconscious.
For instance, I wrote a short story recently. The beginning and end of the story have the POV character near death and fearful. In the middle he's puzzled, but mostly in a dream-like state of contentment. I didn't realize I had done it until a Beta pointed it out (and then I went ahead and emphasized it more) but I had varied the sentence structure to reflect this.
In the beginning and end, all of the sentences were short, choppy, very basic sentences reflecting the immediacy of the character's fear and dire straights. In the middle, where he's sort of drifting, letting events carry him, and circumstances are comfortable, the sentences are longer, more flowing, and very compound (much like this one).

I think sentence structure can add a lot to the "atmosphere" you try to create, but if you get the structures wrong, you can end up seriously harming your story.

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2010

Ken said:
.
Rhythm isn't essential. Some novels don't got a dime's worth. But those that do, seem to read themselves to you, if you know what I mean.

Horses for course, I suppose. I have real trouble reading a piece with little rhythm

Lady Ice said:
Rhythm's very important- not just in a sentence, but over the whole book. Having all your scenes fast-paced is just as boring as having them all slow-paced.

Absolutely. I thought we'd start off small and work up to the big stuff though

But that second sentence slows down the rhythm a lot; it depends on what effect you want.

It does, but also changes it from a bland sentence ( well start of a sentence anyway) to a highly memorable one.

Ways to create rhythm...this is probably bad but I like to take an ordinary sentence and see how I can change the meaning and atmosphere without changing the basic idea:

I could see how that would work. And if it works it's not bad! Part of the reason for me starting this thread was to see how others deal with it, so I can try that myself. I'm raiding ur brainzzz

Bookewyrme said:
I think sentence structure can add a lot to the "atmosphere" you try to create, but if you get the structures wrong, you can end up seriously harming your story.

QFT. For instance as I said earlier, when I write epic fantasy the 'narrator' in my head is different from when I write a different genre - the atmosphere is different and therefore so is the rhythm and cadence.

samripley · Feb 21, 2010

In a novel? I wouldn't really say that it's important, so I guess I'm of the opposite opinion of the lot of you. This isn't poetry, where it definitely has to flow well. I imagine most of my speakers, because I write in the first person, are just speaking. The way I speak isn't poetic and it doesn't have rhythm, so I don't write like that. Maybe I'm misinterpreting and you meant something else, but just really don't think it's important.

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2010

Well, rhythm affects more than just the sentence. It's paragraph / scene / chapter / book altering. Each of these things has a rhythm.

What about the rhythm of a scene for instance?

A fast paced chase scene v a slow, relaxed scene. In this case, the sentence lengths help dictate the pace / rhythm ( in my mind the two are different but inextricably linked). Shorter sentences in the action scene give a faster pace. Long, slow, sensuous sentences give a more relaxed rhythm / pace

Maxinquaye · Feb 21, 2010

I would say rythm IS essential, or it will be a boring read. If we continue the musical comparison, a piece only filled with crescendos will be boring and tiring. A ten minute staccato piece will be unbearable from the third minute.

Same with writing. I'm not saying a text should rhyme with perfect meter, because we're not writing poetry, but a text should certainly be varied with sentence length, paragraph length, chapter length.

One trick I use to hear the rhythm of my text is to read it aloud. Passages that are static, staccato and arythmic will stand out.

dolores haze · Feb 21, 2010

Froma the Samhain article:

Learn how to make occasional use of anaphora and antistrophe (repetition of the first word/last word), asyndeton and polysyndeton (omitting conjuctions/using multiple conjunctions), and epanalepsis and conduplicatio (repetition of a key preceding word).

Excellent article. I didn't know that stuff even had names!

I don't have much to add to the discussion, other than I do a lot of these things without really thinking about them. I'm a voracious reader and have been since I first learned to read. I guess I learned these things through osmosis, which doesn't mean I don't have room to improve, but does mean I recommend reading widely in order to "feel" the rythmn of excellent writing.

I'm particularly fond of trying to establish a realistic rythmn in dialogue. Characters cut each other off, refuse to answer, get irate, hesitate while saying difficult things. Sometimes I have to break some of those writing "rules" in order to get it right. One of my pet peeves in writing is dialogue that sounds written versus things that people would actually say.

Fascinating discussion, IRU. Thanks.

samripley · Feb 21, 2010

dolores haze said:
Froma the Samhain article:

Excellent article. I didn't know that stuff even had names!

I don't have much to add to the discussion, other than I do a lot of these things without really thinking about them. I'm a voracious reader and have been since I first learned to read. I guess I learned these things through osmosis, which doesn't mean I don't have room to improve, but does mean I recommend reading widely in order to "feel" the rythmn of excellent writing.

I'm particularly fond of trying to establish a realistic rythmn in dialogue. Characters cut each other off, refuse to answer, get irate, hesitate while saying difficult things. Sometimes I have to break some of those writing "rules" in order to get it right. One of my pet peeves in writing is dialogue that sounds written versus things that people would actually say.

Fascinating discussion, IRU. Thanks.

I suppose I misinterpreted, because I DO do these things. I thought you guys meant meter, as with poetry. I'm totally of the camp that dialogue should sound totally real; I strive for that in my writing.

sheadakota · Feb 21, 2010

Rythm is absolutely essential in novels- without it the piece would be monotone- like music with only one note. If it is a face paced scene then the sentences need to be short and clipped to match that- if the scene is relaxed your sentences should reflect that as well- THAT is rythm and that is what makes the differecne between a novel that is good to one that is fantastic- as someone said- one that reads itself-

great discussion!

Ken · Feb 21, 2010

... most likes we all have different ideas about what rhythm is. So we probably aren't as in as much disagreement as it seems. As I define it, though, rhythm in a novel is an appreciated extra, but isn't essential so long as the story is good. For a story to be good there does have to be proper pacing and all. But pacing isn't really rhythm. Some of rhythm is pacing, but pacing is certainly not all rhythm or a number of other related things that are integral to good read. Though it all depends on how you define the terms, of course.

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2010

samripley said:
I suppose I misinterpreted, because I DO do these things. I thought you guys meant meter, as with poetry. I'm totally of the camp that dialogue should sound totally real; I strive for that in my writing.

Meter is only a small part - like I say I started with sentences thinking we could work up to the rhythm of the book as a whole - the rhythm of the tension for example, whether its a slow constant build, or whether it's tidal, each wave coming up the beach, ebbing, coming up a bit more till you reach the high water / climactic moment

Rhythm is especially important in dialogue to my mind. Some people talk staccato ( My name. Is Captain. James. T Kirk lol), some talk in huge run on sentences. I find thinking of the rhythm of a certain character really helps me find their voice and makes them more distinct from each other

But pacing isn't really rhythm. Some of rhythm is pacing, but pacing is certainly not all rhythm

Absolutely - as I said, two different things, but they are inextricably linked. Rhythm helps establish pace, pace determines the rhythm you use.

ETA: Don't mind me. I never really know what I think about a subject till I start to write about it. So this is me finding my way through how I feel about rhythm lol. I thought it might be useful for us all to discuss though.

Lady Ice · Feb 21, 2010

Pacing is totally rhythm. It's like saying 'It doesn't matter if you sing the wrong notes as long as it's a good song.'

Rhythm goes under the radar of most readers- they don't say 'What a wonderful rhythm!' but they keep reading. I'm sure there's been times when you've read a sentence that sounds really wrong and it's jerked you from your reading flow.Too many jerks and it starts to become a chore to read it.

Maxinquaye · Feb 21, 2010

Language is essential to telling a story, and rythm goes hand in hand with language. My opinion is, if you don't have a strong language, then you don't have a strong story. And a strong language is a language that has a good rythm in it.

To me, rythm is in the sentences, the constructs of the language, while scenes and chapters and arcs are more the form. A heavy metal band or the London Philharmonics will tell the same story very differently using different forms, but at the core the rythm will be similar if not the same.

kuwisdelu · Feb 21, 2010

Rhythm is extremely important to me.

It makes or breaks the prose, and I can't read a book if I don't enjoy the prose.

I'll change one word in a sentence and end up changing another, completely unrelated word, several phrases or clauses or whole other sentences away just because it breaks the rhythm to my ear.

Rhythm is what keeps a sentence or paragraph that goes on for several whole pages from getting the slightest bit confusing or boring and keeps you reading long after you'd be starved for breath if you tried to read it aloud without an occasional coming-up for air in a way that you don't even want it to end.

Ken · Feb 21, 2010

... may be wrong about this but I always thought of pacing in a novel as having to do with how the story is set up: where the climaxes occur and how the scenes leading up to it are arranged. Rhythm has to do with individual sentences and passages, by contrast, which does require some pacing too. But that pacing is localized and has to do with wording rather than plot. So a novel can still be exciting to read, while having little to no rhythm. Doesn't mean rhythm isn't important or desirable, but just that it isn't integral to the novel as a whole.

NicoleMD · Feb 21, 2010

Thanks a bunch! Now I've got "The Rhythm is gonna getcha" stuck in my head.

Rhythm is very important to me in my writing (some pieces more than others). It's why I don't listen to all of those "rules" about avoiding book saidisms and adverbs and such. It's like telling a painter she can't use the color green. I want all the words on my palette.

As for teaching rhythm, I think it's something some people have an ear for. Reading probably helps tune it. Sometimes I "feel" a piece in a way that complements the theme of the story. For example, in Kij Johnson's Spar, the writing was choppy and repetitive which left me feeling seasick and restless. This feeling tied in nicely with mood of the story, being stranded in an escape pod for an eternity.

Nicole

Bookewyrme · Feb 21, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
A heavy metal band or the London Philharmonics will tell the same story very differently using different forms, but at the core the rythm will be similar if not the same.

This makes me think of Metallica's "Symphony and Metallica" album.
/end derail

I do think that rhythm (which I seem determined to misspell) and pacing of sentences can determine the entire rhythm of a novel. The sentences are the building blocks. If you have bricks, you end up with a plain brick house, whereas if you have a mixture of bricks and rough stones you have to work harder to fit them together properly, but visually a much more stunning building.

Ok, maybe that analogy isn't so great, but I hope everyone understands my point.

Linda Adams · Feb 21, 2010

I couldn't tell you if rhythm is important or not--I actually have no sense of rhythm. When I was in the army, the single hardest thing for me to do was march--I could not stay in step even with someone calling cadence, a drum beating, and watchng the feet in front of me. No amount of practice helped. I was so bad that they tried to kick me out twice, and one time my first sergeant moved me to the very end of formation so I wouldn't embarrass him with my terrible marching on camera. I have problems relating to music for the same reasons because the rhythm doesn't mean anything to me--anything comparing music to writing is completely lost on me.

But I can tell if a story is choppy or doesn't flow well, though I wouldn't have called that rhythm. I mean, you can't just put random sentences together and call it a story. Everything has to fit together, and even at the base level, one sentence needs to flow into the next to make sense.

dolores haze · Feb 21, 2010

IdiotsRUs said:
ETA: Don't mind me. I never really know what I think about a subject till I start to write about it. So this is me finding my way through how I feel about rhythm lol. I thought it might be useful for us all to discuss though.

This discussion is helping me, too.

On music: I never, ever listen to music while I'm writing, but I often have a piece of music in the back of my head while I'm writing particular scenes or characters. A long, slow, sensual seduction scene, for instance, was written with the slow persistent build-up and glorious crescendo of Ravel's 'Bolero' in the back of my mind. A recent MC had Chumbawumba's 'Tubthumping' as his theme. The staccato rythmn of a man who keeps getting knocked down, but keeps getting up again and again and again.

I like your trick, IRU, of using the voice of a brilliant narrator to "hear" the writing. I think I'm gonna ~~hire~~ ~~rent~~ use Alan Rickman and try that.

kuwisdelu · Feb 21, 2010

Here's an example of the kind of great rhythm I enjoy in prose in a good book. Orin and the Subject are lying together in bed in a hotel room post-coitus.

David Foster Wallace said:
When the knock on the room door came it seemed like a further grace, for the Subject had been up on an elbow in bed, exhaling slim tusks of cigarette-smoke from her nose and starting to ask him to tell her things about his own family, and Orin was stroking her very tenderly and watching the twin curves of smoke pale and spread and trying not to shudder at the thought of what the inside of the Subject’s fine nose must look like, what gray-white tangles of necrotic snot must hang and twine up in there, from the smoke, whether she had the stomach to look at a hankie she’d used or whether she balled the thing up and flung it from her with the sort of shudder O. knew he’d feel; and when the brisk action of male knuckles sounded against the room’s door he watched her face whiten from the forehead down as she pleaded that no one must know of her whoever was there and stabbed out her butt and dove beneath the blankets as he called out for patience to the door and veered to the bathroom to wrap a towel around him before he went to it, the sort of bland hotel door you used a card and not a key for.

Each phrase just flows perfectly into the other and it has just enough great detail to give you the imagery without ever becoming cluttered. The sentence just builds on itself, using each last word, each last phrase as a springboard to jump to the next. It's so conversational that despite going on for how long it does, it never feels wordy in your mouth. (Not my mouth at least.) The rhythm keeps the sentence from never getting old despite its length.

I find the best test is always to read something aloud. Hearing a person who just happens to possess a great reading voice read it aloud to you is even better.

Libbie · Feb 21, 2010

...of shoes, and ships, and sealing-wax,
of cabbages and kings.

Yes, rhythm is hugely important to me, not only as a reader but as a writer. I also hear a voice reading what I write as I write it (usually Gabrielle DeCuir for me). I've begun attending a critique group where we "cold read" our piece for the week aloud, and sometimes I have another member read mine for me, so I can see how others approach the rhythm, and whether it's naturally happening the way I want it to.

My short fiction in particular is definitely on the literary end of the scale (right now my novels are more toward the commercial), and I use a clear and distinct rhythm to create atmosphere and even to build character.

All the authors I love to read the most have a sense of rhythm, too. It can drive the entire narrative, in some cases.

Yep. I'd say it's important. As to how I achieve it, I guess I just listen to the shape of the words. First while I'm writing it, then later as I'm reading it. And with my short stories, when others read them out loud.

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2010

the shape of the words.

That's exactly how I think of it! The shape of the words in a sentence - a long word here or a short one, may mean the same thing , or similar, but each choice alters the rhythm as does the comma or the choice of BUt or Yet or However or.... I often also think of the 'shape' of a novel as a whole, and part of that shape is the rhythm of the piece.

I'm trying real hard here to describe exactly what I mean. Possibly because it's been occupying my thoughts these last few days. I mean there is a time for sensuous rhythm and staccato rhythm and ....and how do we chose which is best?

I'm not sure tbh. It's often not a concious decision on my part when I pick up a certain rhythm in a piece ( though I appear to have a certain natural rhythm, I want it to be better!). It's just...what sounds best for that scene, sentence, chapter, you know? I'd like to be able to pick it more precisely though, so I can apply it more precisely. Saying, as with art, that 'I know it when i see / hear it' just isn't cutting it these days. So I'm trying to pick it apart and find the bits that glue together to make rhythm

Am I making sense?

Rhythm - a discussion

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Makes useful distinctions

Imagined half of it.

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

That cheeky buggerer

international guttersnipe

part of the human equation

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Makes useful distinctions

That cheeky buggerer

Revolutionize the World

Onomatopotamus

Imagined half of it.

Soldier, Storyteller

international guttersnipe

Revolutionize the World

Worst song played on ugliest guitar

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble